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Keith Emerson's opinion on Jurgen Fritz?
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

 Spartacus was always a toughie for me because I find it a bit 'wimpie' mainly because of Barry Palmer's vocals and the subject matter. I struggle a little with that although the instrumental bits are impressive

Hey Richardh, the first Triumvirat recording with Barry Palmer was a B side for The Capital of Instant Power called "Take a Break Today", it was recorded in 1976 after Helmut left to boost Spartacus with a Pop single, but I'm 99.999 sure Barry didn't recorded a note in Spartacus.

On the subject, I asked a member of a big 5 band after a press conference about Jurgen Fritz, he told me in PRIVATE (He didn't wanted to mess with Keith fans) LITERALLY this:

"Keith has the strength  and a wonderful insanity, Jürgen has a perfect technique and the most wonderful arrangements I ever heard."

I told him I liked IOADD and Spartacus more than any ELP album except Trilogy, he told me exactly the same thing but with ELP's debut instead of Trilogy.

Sorry I can't mention the name, but I gave my word.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 28 2015 at 19:52
            
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Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

As an aside, I think Jürgen Fritz deserves the same bashing for anything from Pompeii upwards as Emerson gets for Love Beach, although personally I enjoy LB, whereas I cannot think of anything good to say about A La Carte and Russian Roulette. Very apt title, by the way if you imagine all six chambers to be loaded in this case.
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Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

As an aside, I think Jürgen Fritz deserves the same bashing for anything from Pompeii upwards as Emerson gets for Love Beach, although personally I enjoy LB, whereas I cannot think of anything good to say about A La Carte and Russian Roulette. Very apt title, by the way if you imagine all six chambers to be loaded in this case.
 
Old Loves Die Hard is as far as anyone needs to ride the T'rat train, but that's just my humble opinion. Pompeii isn't bad, it's just forgettable compared to what came before it.
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Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

On the subject, I asked a member of a big 5 band after a press conference about Jurgen Fritz, he told me in PRIVATE (He didn't wanted to mess with Keith fans) LITERALLY this:

"Keith has the strength  and a wonderful insanity, Jürgen has a perfect technique and the most wonderful arrangements I ever heard."

I told him I liked IOADD and Spartacus more than any ELP album except Trilogy, he told me exactly the same thing but with ELP's debut instead of Trilogy.

Sorry I can't mention the name, but I gave my word.

Iván
 
No doubt we'd all be surprised and delighted by feedback like the kind Mystery Man disclosed. Thumbs Up
 
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I've grown fond of Pompeii, I liked it when I first heard it, then it kind of fell out of favour with me, but now I find it an intriguing listening experience. Vocally, and instrumentally, it is a strong album.
             A La Carte and Russian Roulette sound like a completely different band, I admit. If you don't follow the knee jerk response of judging the records purely by comparison to previous T'rat records, they aren't really that bad.
           A La Carte is a nice pop rock effort, and Russian Roulette is more modern sounding. I came to really "know" the music on those two records by hearing the live T'rat bootleg "Live in Germany 1980", where music from both are played live with more gusto and drive, quite impressive, really. 
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

^What Richard said, and I like Spartacus and Old Loves Die Hard the best of T'rat's discography, and I concur that they sound unlike anything ELP would have recorded, especially the title track of Spartacus. Atmosphere wasn't a quality that ELP as a whole seemed to specialize in, though there's plenty of it in their solo output.
 
Indeed, and I like Old Loves Die Hard too, but Pompeii was the first Triumvirat album I got to know, and thanks to great songs found there this band's name got stuck in my mind since more than two three decades ago, I remember being very inpressed at the very first listening. Had to wait till some years ago to finally have a really gratifying pleasure of listening again to Pompeii and (of course) knowing its predecessors. So, at least two or three tracks off Pompeii that I recall which are among my Triumvirat favourite pieces, regardless of their sentimental value and influence:
 
Earthquake 62 A.D.: I still enjoy it quite a bit, besides an interesting atmosphere it has also touching melodies and lyrics;
Dance on the Volcano: love this song!, and a stunning crescendo it has, besides the strong melody again (one of my favourite T'rat's trademarks, particularly those from Jürgen Fritz keyboards!);
Vesuvius 79 A.D.: very much in the Earthquake 62 A.D.'s amosphere, great track too.
 
Pompeii is indeed worth having for me, and its predecessor has also some really great tracks worth mentioning:
The History of Mystery - Part One: besides that stunning piano intro, everytime I finish listening to this track the catchy instrument melodies keep flowing in my head for a while Wink;
A Day In A Life: What a stunningly good piano work, heartfelt melodies so elegantly performed, sheer beauty;
Panic On 5th Avenue: although at its starting minute reminds me a bit of ELP's mood and sounds, throughout the whole song it brilliantly manages to grab me again with that unique Triumvirat atmosphere that I love,  besides being hooking frenzy as well, great track!
 
 


Edited by Rick Robson - April 28 2015 at 19:28


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^hey, Ric, right on! Your comments are insightful, too, and resonate with me a lot, really.
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Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

Panic On 5th Avenue: although at its starting minute reminds me a bit of ELP's mood and sounds, throughout the whole song it brilliantly manages to grab me again with that unique Triumvirat atmosphere that I love,  besides being hooking frenzy as well, great track!
 
Best track on Old Loves!
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Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

^hey, Ric, right on! Your comments are insightful, too, and resonate with me a lot, really.
 
Thanks Doug! When I listened to Pompeii first it was more than 30 years ago, more precisely, and I didn't have the slightest idea of what Prog was...Smile
 
 


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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Rick Robson Rick Robson wrote:

Panic On 5th Avenue: although at its starting minute reminds me a bit of ELP's mood and sounds, throughout the whole song it brilliantly manages to grab me again with that unique Triumvirat atmosphere that I love,  besides being hooking frenzy as well, great track!
 
Best track on Old Loves!
 
yep that's a goodie
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Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

 Spartacus was always a toughie for me because I find it a bit 'wimpie' mainly because of Barry Palmer's vocals and the subject matter. I struggle a little with that although the instrumental bits are impressive

Hey Richardh, the first Triumvirat recording with Barry Palmer was a B side for The Capital of Instant Power called "Take a Break Today", it was recorded in 1976 after Helmut left to boost Spartacus with a Pop single, but I'm 99.999 sure Barry didn't recorded a note in Spartacus.

On the subject, I asked a member of a big 5 band after a press conference about Jurgen Fritz, he told me in PRIVATE (He didn't wanted to mess with Keith fans) LITERALLY this:

"Keith has the strength  and a wonderful insanity, Jürgen has a perfect technique and the most wonderful arrangements I ever heard."

I told him I liked IOADD and Spartacus more than any ELP album except Trilogy, he told me exactly the same thing but with ELP's debut instead of Trilogy.

Sorry I can't mention the name, but I gave my word.

Iván
 
Interesting!
I've just got the reissue of Trilogy with a new mix ( not by Steven Wilson sadly) but yet to listen to it. Trilogy was an album that a nice balance of all of the band members not just about the insanity of Emerson. I can fully appreciate the general view of Emerson. His technique is dominated by one hand ( sorry don't know which) as was intimated in a radio programme when one Rick Wakeman had him as his guest. It was framed as a compliment obviously. However for me music is as much about creativity and ideas as it is about technique although you can't have the former without the latter. Emerson was full of ideas in that period between 1970 and 1973 , possibly more than any other single musician of the time. ELP was not all about him though and Trilogy perhaps was the only album of that period where the other 2 managed to rein him in!
 
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
Anyway Keith did rate Rick Wakeman but Ricks 'Keith,who?' comment in the press at the time didn't help matters much and they had a supposed long running feud. According to Wakeman this was massively overhyped by the music press and fueled by their own record companies!
...

I know this is from a few years back, but in the end, I think that RW is learning that he missed out on something, and he is making waves on it now. Rachel Flowers did Keith unplugged ... and no one did Rick unplugged, and he is now doing it.

It has been my opinion all along, that "unplugging" it is the greatest reason to find out how good a composition it really is, and a lot of Keith's work, has stood up magnificently on Rachel's hands ... and I can not say the same thing for anything on Rick's hands. 

I doubt that Keith was not aware of a lot of other bands, and keyboards in Europe, although it is possible he might not have spent time listening to them, if he were afraid to be influenced, which I am not sure he would be, but in the end, his composition side is not what stood out in his life ... his showmanship and performing side was the one that a lot of us got into ... which I think he regretted later, because it took away from the seriousness of the work he put together with his mates, which no one saw, or understood. 

We can all thank Rachel for that assist. As for Rick, I think he still needs a lot of crumpets and coffee and some more golden capes to try and show that he is a great composer. That he is a fine musician is not an issue, and that he has shown in concert recently, but really ... c'mon ... he's playing that for the 1750th time! you would think he had it down by now!

The day I hear a complete side of TFTO on his piano ... I think I will take RW a lot more seriously, and in the meantime, there are/were hundreds of folks all over Europe that were as good if not better than RW in my book. At least some other folks did not pretend to copy Keith, and to think that Banco and PFM and Triumvirat were just copies is ridiculous as they were beautifully defined musically already by the time ELP came around with Manticore. 

And we haven't even gotten to some of the keyboard wizards around that time!
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^ yep absolutely. Keith's 'antics' for want of a better word did unfortunately detract somewhat from his skills as a composer. ELP were a rock band and perhaps saw themselves as entertainers to some extent and that is also obvious. BTW check out The Three Fates Project with Marc Bonilla and a German Orchestra. Love the orchestral version of The Endless Enigma.
Another great keyboard player/composer is Patrick Moraz. Refugee were/are possibly the most underrated prog band of the seventies. Fantastic one off album before Yes decided they couldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Not many keyboard players understudied both Emerson and Wakeman. Think about it!


Edited by richardh - June 15 2018 at 00:13
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ yep absolutely. Keith's 'antics' for want of a better word did unfortunately detract somewhat from his skills as a composer. ELP were a rock band and perhaps saw themselves as entertainers to some extent and that is also obvious. BTW check out The Three Fates Project with Marc Bonilla and a German Orchestra. Love the orchestral version of The Endless Enigma.
Another great keyboard player/composer is Patrick Moraz. Refugee were/are possibly the most underrated prog band of the seventies. Fantastic one off album before Yes decided they couldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Not many keyboard players understudied both Emerson and Wakeman. Think about it!

GERMANY must be the place to be for progressive and experimental, not London!

Gads ... even Edgar Froese, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Eberhard Schoenner have had their material done with orchestras ... and probably others I don't know about!

But in England ... it costs too much money, which ought to specify their interest in the arts or the money! 
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ yep absolutely. Keith's 'antics' for want of a better word did unfortunately detract somewhat from his skills as a composer. ELP were a rock band and perhaps saw themselves as entertainers to some extent and that is also obvious. BTW check out The Three Fates Project with Marc Bonilla and a German Orchestra. Love the orchestral version of The Endless Enigma.
Another great keyboard player/composer is Patrick Moraz. Refugee were/are possibly the most underrated prog band of the seventies. Fantastic one off album before Yes decided they couldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Not many keyboard players understudied both Emerson and Wakeman. Think about it!

GERMANY must be the place to be for progressive and experimental, not London!

Gads ... even Edgar Froese, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Eberhard Schoenner have had their material done with orchestras ... and probably others I don't know about!

But in England ... it costs too much money, which ought to specify their interest in the arts or the money! 
I can definitely see your point, mosh, with who you have mentioned, and there were German Symphonic Prog Bands like Pell Mell with criminally under-rated keyboardist Otto Pusch doing concerts with orchestral accompaniment way back around 1971, which is notable on their live bootleg from that period. Another excellent classically influenced keys player from Germany that is also from a undeservedly under rated prog band is Juergen Dollase from the group Wallenstein (and also in Cosmic Jokers) Don't know if Wallenstein ever toured with an orchestra, but they if they did, it would have been really something! 
        And, Richard, Refugee are fantastic, and, yeah, under rated as anything.
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Hi,

I was thinking of a couple of others that have had orchestras doing their thing ...

Ryuichi Sakamoto ... and he has also played the piano with an orchestra.

Jean Michel Jarre ... I think, has done stuff with an orchestra. Have to re-check that.

Vangelis ... more than once, but his inability to travel, and carry his equipment is an issue and he won't do many of these shows unless they are at home, and there is no money for the arts in Greece.

Mike Oldfield ... more than once, though at times, I kinda think that ... it was average, and not as great as it could be. I still think of EXPOSED as the best he has done with it, but the credit goes to the individual musicians that helped him there. The Millenium show was nice, but I am not sure it was great great. 

On the other European front, Thijs Van Leer has done a lot of work with orchestras, although in his solo albums some of it may be represented by keyboards.

The keyboard player with Ekseption (Rick Van Der Linden) is probably as good, if not better than RW in my book. Better compositions, and a lot less ... "show off". No capes necessary!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

I was thinking of a couple of others that have had orchestras doing their thing ...

Ryuichi Sakamoto ... and he has also played the piano with an orchestra.

Jean Michel Jarre ... I think, has done stuff with an orchestra. Have to re-check that.

Vangelis ... more than once, but his inability to travel, and carry his equipment is an issue and he won't do many of these shows unless they are at home, and there is no money for the arts in Greece.

Mike Oldfield ... more than once, though at times, I kinda think that ... it was average, and not as great as it could be. I still think of EXPOSED as the best he has done with it, but the credit goes to the individual musicians that helped him there. The Millenium show was nice, but I am not sure it was great great. 

On the other European front, Thijs Van Leer has done a lot of work with orchestras, although in his solo albums some of it may be represented by keyboards.

The keyboard player with Ekseption (Rick Van Der Linden) is probably as good, if not better than RW in my book. Better compositions, and a lot less ... "show off". No capes necessary!
That's interesting....
     I  really think highly of Ekseption; they made fun music, that was also technically pretty amazing. Van Der Linden was exceptional (no pun intended)
          I have always liked Thijs Van Leer; I did not know he worked with orchestras.
          Jean Michel Jarre; now that would be interesting, as well. I only know him by his recording Oxygene.
         Sakamoto I know by name, only.
       Mike Oldfield has been a bit of a hard sell for me, musically. I will have to delve further, I suppose.
   Vangelis is good.

         Triumvirat were to tour for their album A La Carte with a brass section and choir, but that tour was cancelled due to lack of ticket sales.
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Jean-Michel Jarre plays with a Chinese orchestra on Les Concerts en Chine. In my opinion this album has his most interesting music. Of course he became a pretty big act worldwide and I'm pretty sure he has played with orchestras later on some of his stadium/arena events (no problem to afford this for him!), but there's not that much attraction to me in his music of the later period.
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This thread is making me crave some Double Dimples!!!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

I was thinking of a couple of others that have had orchestras doing their thing ...

Ryuichi Sakamoto ... and he has also played the piano with an orchestra.

Jean Michel Jarre ... I think, has done stuff with an orchestra. Have to re-check that.

Vangelis ... more than once, but his inability to travel, and carry his equipment is an issue and he won't do many of these shows unless they are at home, and there is no money for the arts in Greece.

Mike Oldfield ... more than once, though at times, I kinda think that ... it was average, and not as great as it could be. I still think of EXPOSED as the best he has done with it, but the credit goes to the individual musicians that helped him there. The Millenium show was nice, but I am not sure it was great great. 

On the other European front, Thijs Van Leer has done a lot of work with orchestras, although in his solo albums some of it may be represented by keyboards.

The keyboard player with Ekseption (Rick Van Der Linden) is probably as good, if not better than RW in my book. Better compositions, and a lot less ... "show off". No capes necessary!

Jarre - The China Concerts has some orchestra and is one of his best 

Vangelis - Mythodea is great but as you suggest he struggles to get his classical stuff 'out there'

Oldfield - Kind of a 'dabbler'. Music Of The Spheres is fine. He did collaborate with the composer David Bedford a little bit but that was never a big thing it seems for him.




Edited by richardh - June 22 2018 at 00:03
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