Does anybody know if Keith Emerson ever gave any opinions on Triumvirat's Jurgen Fritz?

 

Did he praise him? did he despise him as his copycat? did he just ignore him?

 

Did Keith ever make any statements about Jurgen? (or about Triumvirat's music for what matters)

 

My money is that Keith couldn't give a damn ... I imagine that he was probably more blown away by PFM and Banco than otherwise ... after all ... he did release their albums!

 

Anyway Keith did rate Rick Wakeman but Ricks 'Keith,who?' comment in the press at the time didn't help matters much and they had a supposed long running feud. According to Wakeman this was massively overhyped by the music press and fueled by their own record companies!

 

Its well known that Emerson had the greatest respect for Jon Lord and probably still does. I also read that he liked Genesis and Gentle Giant so by extension that he also liked/rated Banks and Minnear.

 

As for PFM I'm not sure. I think it was Greg Lake who was keen on them. That said ELP did support PFM when they played in their native Italy which shows great respect in itself.

 

I also believe that the duel between Keith and Rick Wakeman was in good measure fuelled by the media, but in any case they were both quite egocentric so their personalities surely helped the dicotomy.

 

Back to the topic of Keith and Jurgen, I was just thinking that Keith might have appreciated Jurgen as being one of the very few who shared his vision of what prog rock should be like. There are certainly differences between ELP and Triumvirat, of course, but nobody can deny that Jurgen's vision of prog was very similar to Keith's. But then again, Keith being so egocentric it is very possible that he never gave a damn about Jurgen...

 

I admit that I do not know Rick Van Der Linden's work. Is it worth it? 

 

 

It's very curious that most bands are so caught up in their own world, 100% focus on their own work, that they hardly find time to hear a lot of what's out there...........

Triumvrat I know less about and only own the first 3 albums. They seem a lot less bombastic than ELP. ELP loved their theatrics (as did their fans) but Triumvirat tried to add something a bit more grounded and 'human' to their music while ELP were caught up in sci fi and grandiose concepts. Musically they have obvious similarites as pointed out but in essence they seem very different,

There is something really nice about this playing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJpCzQC2sG4" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJpCzQC2sG4

I'm sure he also stated he had a lot of respect for Dudley Moore who was a very fine pianist in his spare time

In rock terms Jon Lord was the one he admired most I think. Lord was probably the most qualified classical styled rock organist.

I believe that Emerson also had respect for Wakeman but didn't talk about him after Rick's 'Keith who?' comment that appeared in a music paper interview. They became friends though years later and were plotting a joint project that sadly has yet to happen.

He has talked about Jimi Hendrix in interviews. The Nice played some gigs as support in the late sixties and or course there were those 'HELP' rumours that he will always be asked about.

When ELP played Barbarian at The Lyceum he dedicates it to Jimi. Emerson always reckoned that Purple Haze had a touch of the gothic east European classic music style about it.

 

Keith loved those organists, especially Jimmy Smith and McDuff. Keith said, during one of his old interviews for Keyboard, that ELP played one of their huge arena shows, and afterward Keith hoofed it to a small club downtown (I forget which city exactly) to see Jimmy Smith play. Keith being a white guy, he got noticed fairly quickly. After one piece, Smith himself finally looked in his direction and said "You white people really like this music, don't you?" At that point, Keith threw his hand up and yelled "Check, please!" Keith did remark he knew Jimmy didn't know who he was, nor that ELP had just played to 20,000 people.

no surprise that Emerson liked Dudley Moore, he was a bit of a swinger himself more than a rocker. Jon Lord's real qualification for being a "Titan" was that he played in a very famous Rock band, not anything he actually did on the keyboards, IMO he was middle order, just a good pro.

 

I like Keith's music ...   A LOT ... but in many ways, it never really went past the "pop machine" that they ended up representing and becoming ... and that (I think) hurt their music ... not that I did not like the fun stuff like the sheriff and what not, but it took away from the rest of the music and its depth and seriousness. To this day, I still believe so!

 

Not many players spend their time about another player ... in general, that's rude ... they might say they like their music and generally be polite, but there is no need for it ... since so many people do so many different things with the instruments ... it's like asking Keith what he thinks of Vangelis ... useless question and discussion.

 

Strange Department:

Manticore produced Banco and PFM for American releases, though they did not follow up on Banco ... too good musically and esoteric for American audiences! But PFM did really well here! And they did release several albums though they were not in sync with the Italian versions at the start.

 

There are quotes by Keith about the one keyboard player who appreciates him more than many of these we discuss ... and it is with Erik Norlander (Rocket Scientists and/or Lana Lane -- his wife), and these quotes are very flattering and appreciative of the work, btw ... and I think these are the best comments I have ever heard/seen Keith give anyone.

They were both outstanding instrumentalists!  Fritz was a big, strong fella....he manhandled his Mini-Moog on the top of the Hammond Organ as if it were a toy!  

Really, I could care less what Emerson thought of anyone.  He was a fine talent in his own right, but he had many fine competitors.  

ELP were never 100% prog imo. Genesis (early years) , Yes ,King Crimson and VDGG were much more committed to the genre. It could be argued that in essence ELP were a 'Festival Band'. Their birth happened at the IOW and that was fitting. They loved the big shows and that was their soul as a band. After they did the Montreal Gig I believe they could just have stopped there and then. It would never get any better and it didn't. Love Beach was just about fulfilling their contractural duties and Keith more or less admitted that he was quite depressed making that album. The come down from playing with a full orchestra as they did on the Works Tour was just too big. 

Sorry Doug  if  this is turning into yet another ELP discussion thread!

The most sensible (and fair) comment thus far

Good to hear that! thanks for posting it 

 

 

 

Anyway, I remember hearing somewhere when asked what other keyboard plays Keith Emerson admired he mentioned Jon Lord. I also wonder what he thought of Rod Argent. 

 

I know this thread is about his thoughts on Fritz but regarding ELP I have always wondered why they felt it necessary to put  silly short 'comedic songs' on their albums which for me ruined the flow of the longer nice pieces they did.

 

I would like to address this as an ELP fan because its very difficult to compare the two based on their musical output. Only Illusions is really ELP like and Triumvirat to their credit pulled off a 2 track LP and that is something that ELP never did. As a pure expression of symphonic prog there is probably nothing better unless you go searching all those RPI releases , and there are a great many! However other Triumvirat albums are not very ELP like at all. Spartacus was always a toughie for me because I find it a bit 'wimpie' mainly because of Barry Palmer's vocals and the subject matter. I struggle a little with that although the instrumental bits are impressive. The first Triumvirat album is very much proto prog and should be considered more like Emerson's former band The Nice. After Spartacus there is a law of diminishing returns as even Doug would probably admit.

The problem with ELP is that their best tracks are scattered across several albums. They were never focused enough to produce an album like Illusions On A Double Dimple possibly because of the clashing egos within the band. Much of the bombast was 3 massive talents vying for space in the music. Triumvirat were perhaps able to avoid this pitfall and Illusions is less overbearing and more smoother and flows better than anything ELP ever did (including Tarkus). But history tells us ELP were more important and actually I think that is right. They made a mark and the blazed a trail for others like Triumvirat and Le Orme to follow.

 

Thanks Doug for clarifying. I think the vocals are perhaps the single most distinctive difference between the bands.Lake has one of the voices that can make anything sound important. A lot of symph bands fall down on this although I'm not saying that's the case with Triumvirat , more my individual taste (I like a good baritone in prog!)

Crap - I've got shedloads to listen to - but I always feel like playing with an old-friend....what a Dial-Emma !!!

Hey Richardh, the first Triumvirat recording with Barry Palmer was a B side for The Capital of Instant Power called "Take a Break Today", it was recorded in 1976 after Helmut left to boost Spartacus with a Pop single, but I'm 99.999 sure Barry didn't recorded a note in Spartacus.

On the subject, I asked a member of a big 5 band after a press conference about Jurgen Fritz, he told me in PRIVATE (He didn't wanted to mess with Keith fans) LITERALLY this:

"Keith has the strength  and a wonderful insanity, Jürgen has a perfect technique and the most wonderful arrangements I ever heard."

I told him I liked IOADD and Spartacus more than any ELP album except Trilogy, he told me exactly the same thing but with ELP's debut instead of Trilogy.

Sorry I can't mention the name, but I gave my word.

Iván

 

Old Loves Die Hard is as far as anyone needs to ride the T'rat train, but that's just my humble opinion. Pompeii isn't bad, it's just forgettable compared to what came before it.

 

No doubt we'd all be surprised and delighted by feedback like the kind Mystery Man disclosed.

 

             A La Carte and Russian Roulette sound like a completely different band, I admit. If you don't follow the knee jerk response of judging the records purely by comparison to previous T'rat records, they aren't really that bad.

           A La Carte is a nice pop rock effort, and Russian Roulette is more modern sounding. I came to really "know" the music on those two records by hearing the live T'rat bootleg "Live in Germany 1980", where music from both are played live with more gusto and drive, quite impressive, really. 

 

Indeed, and I like Old Loves Die Hard too, but Pompeii was the first Triumvirat album I got to know, and thanks to great songs found there this band's name got stuck in my mind since more than two three decades ago, I remember being very inpressed at the very first listening. Had to wait till some years ago to finally have a really gratifying pleasure of listening again to Pompeii and (of course) knowing its predecessors. So, at least two or three tracks off Pompeii that I recall which are among my Triumvirat favourite pieces, regardless of their sentimental value and influence:
 
Earthquake 62 A.D.: I still enjoy it quite a bit, besides an interesting atmosphere it has also touching melodies and lyrics;
Dance on the Volcano: love this song!, and a stunning crescendo it has, besides the strong melody again (one of my favourite T'rat's trademarks, particularly those from Jürgen Fritz keyboards!);
Vesuvius 79 A.D.: very much in the Earthquake 62 A.D.'s amosphere, great track too.
 
Pompeii is indeed worth having for me, and its predecessor has also some really great tracks worth mentioning:

The History of Mystery - Part One: besides that stunning piano intro, everytime I finish listening to this track the catchy instrument melodies keep flowing in my head for a while ;
A Day In A Life: What a stunningly good piano work, heartfelt melodies so elegantly performed, sheer beauty;
Panic On 5th Avenue: although at its starting minute reminds me a bit of ELP's mood and sounds, throughout the whole song it brilliantly manages to grab me again with that unique Triumvirat atmosphere that I love,  besides being hooking frenzy as well, great track!

 

 

Best track on Old Loves!

 

Thanks Doug! When I listened to Pompeii first it was more than 30 years ago, more precisely, and I didn't have the slightest idea of what Prog was...

 

 

 

yep that's a goodie

 

Interesting!

I've just got the reissue of Trilogy with a new mix ( not by Steven Wilson sadly) but yet to listen to it. Trilogy was an album that a nice balance of all of the band members not just about the insanity of Emerson. I can fully appreciate the general view of Emerson. His technique is dominated by one hand ( sorry don't know which) as was intimated in a radio programme when one Rick Wakeman had him as his guest. It was framed as a compliment obviously. However for me music is as much about creativity and ideas as it is about technique although you can't have the former without the latter. Emerson was full of ideas in that period between 1970 and 1973 , possibly more than any other single musician of the time. ELP was not all about him though and Trilogy perhaps was the only album of that period where the other 2 managed to rein him in!

 

I know this is from a few years back, but in the end, I think that RW is learning that he missed out on something, and he is making waves on it now. Rachel Flowers did Keith unplugged ... and no one did Rick unplugged, and he is now doing it.

It has been my opinion all along, that "unplugging" it is the greatest reason to find out how good a composition it really is, and a lot of Keith's work, has stood up magnificently on Rachel's hands ... and I can not say the same thing for anything on Rick's hands. 

I doubt that Keith was not aware of a lot of other bands, and keyboards in Europe, although it is possible he might not have spent time listening to them, if he were afraid to be influenced, which I am not sure he would be, but in the end, his composition side is not what stood out in his life ... his showmanship and performing side was the one that a lot of us got into ... which I think he regretted later, because it took away from the seriousness of the work he put together with his mates, which no one saw, or understood. 

We can all thank Rachel for that assist. As for Rick, I think he still needs a lot of crumpets and coffee and some more golden capes to try and show that he is a great composer. That he is a fine musician is not an issue, and that he has shown in concert recently, but really ... c'mon ... he's playing that for the 1750th time! you would think he had it down by now!

The day I hear a complete side of TFTO on his piano ... I think I will take RW a lot more seriously, and in the meantime, there are/were hundreds of folks all over Europe that were as good if not better than RW in my book. At least some other folks did not pretend to copy Keith, and to think that Banco and PFM and Triumvirat were just copies is ridiculous as they were beautifully defined musically already by the time ELP came around with Manticore. 

And we haven't even gotten to some of the keyboard wizards around that time!

^ yep absolutely. Keith's 'antics' for want of a better word did unfortunately detract somewhat from his skills as a composer. ELP were a rock band and perhaps saw themselves as entertainers to some extent and that is also obvious. BTW check out The Three Fates Project with Marc Bonilla and a German Orchestra. Love the orchestral version of The Endless Enigma.

Another great keyboard player/composer is Patrick Moraz. Refugee were/are possibly the most underrated prog band of the seventies. Fantastic one off album before Yes decided they couldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. Not many keyboard players understudied both Emerson and Wakeman. Think about it!

GERMANY must be the place to be for progressive and experimental, not London!

Gads ... even Edgar Froese, Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Eberhard Schoenner have had their material done with orchestras ... and probably others I don't know about!

But in England ... it costs too much money, which ought to specify their interest in the arts or the money! 

        And, Richard, Refugee are fantastic, and, yeah, under rated as anything.

I was thinking of a couple of others that have had orchestras doing their thing ...

Ryuichi Sakamoto ... and he has also played the piano with an orchestra.

Jean Michel Jarre ... I think, has done stuff with an orchestra. Have to re-check that.

Vangelis ... more than once, but his inability to travel, and carry his equipment is an issue and he won't do many of these shows unless they are at home, and there is no money for the arts in Greece.

Mike Oldfield ... more than once, though at times, I kinda think that ... it was average, and not as great as it could be. I still think of EXPOSED as the best he has done with it, but the credit goes to the individual musicians that helped him there. The Millenium show was nice, but I am not sure it was great great. 

The keyboard player with Ekseption (Rick Van Der Linden) is probably as good, if not better than RW in my book. Better compositions, and a lot less ... "show off". No capes necessary!

     I  really think highly of Ekseption; they made fun music, that was also technically pretty amazing. Van Der Linden was exceptional (no pun intended)

          I have always liked Thijs Van Leer; I did not know he worked with orchestras.

          Jean Michel Jarre; now that would be interesting, as well. I only know him by his recording Oxygene.

         Sakamoto I know by name, only.

       Mike Oldfield has been a bit of a hard sell for me, musically. I will have to delve further, I suppose.

   Vangelis is good.

         Triumvirat were to tour for their album A La Carte with a brass section and choir, but that tour was cancelled due to lack of ticket sales.

Jarre - The China Concerts has some orchestra and is one of his best 

Vangelis - Mythodea is great but as you suggest he struggles to get his classical stuff 'out there'

Oldfield - Kind of a 'dabbler'. Music Of The Spheres is fine. He did collaborate with the composer David Bedford a little bit but that was never a big thing it seems for him.