Is ELP against christianity

Looks like there's one thing many of us agree on: with a couple of exceptions, ELP's got some pretty crappy lyrics! I think Greg cooked 'em up on the fly, most of the time...

Btw, I've always wondered why atheists like to yak about God so much. If you don't believe in God, why would He even be a concern? It doesn't seem..."logical." Hmmm... 

dropForge wrote: Looks like there's one thing many of us agree on: with a couple of exceptions, ELP's got some pretty crappy lyrics! I think Greg cooked 'em up on the fly, most of the time... Btw, I've always wondered why atheists like to yak about God so much. If you don't believe in God, why would He even be a concern? It doesn't seem..."logical." Hmmm...

With so much religion as there is in US, I in fact ignore 99% of it. But sometimes I think I might just ask (mayn't I?) why people want to abandon logic and stick to some vaguely formulated unbelievable-in beliefs.

Recently, however, I've been applying more and more strict "filtering" to my acquaintances and contacts. If the person believes in God, I stop talking to him/her. Right now this policy does not apply to my boss, but it will be soon applied to the members of this forum.

Edited by Arteum

GoldenSpiral wrote: to completely change the topic.... I find it funny, but often frustrating, how many rock bands (particularly metal) are commonly percieved as anti-christian or even satanic in nature, when in reality the opposite is true.  The prime example for me is Black Sabbath, often seen as a dark satanic band, but when one looks at the lyrics of songs like "After Forever", "N.I.B." and "Into the Void", they are clearly anti-satanic, even pro-christ. The point being, even in the case of ELP, just because a band uses religious imagery does not mean they are casting religion in a negative light, poking fun, or promoting anti-religious sentiments.

Very good observation!

I happened to figure out the pro-christ lyrics in After Forever, but hadn't paid attention to the other two. It's really a treat to see how people judge everything (avant-garde people and events in particular) with prejudice, without even giving heed to what they actually say!

The only thing I would object in After Forever would be the line about "the Pope", just because I'm not a catholic and don't believe he ever had the right to "represent" Christianity, let alone Christ... I would easily overlook, however, since Catholic church is still the landmark of Christianity in common man's mind...

The thing about ELP is different, however. I'd still go for the fact that I like their music alone, not approving what they actually say. And I'm somehow strong in faith, maani! so don't worry!

dropForge wrote: Arteum wrote: Recently, however, I've been applying more and more strict "filtering" to my acquaintances and contacts. If the person believes in God, I stop talking to him/her. Right now this policy does not apply to my boss, but it will be soon applied to the members of this forum. Now you sound like an infant. Nobody here has offended you.

How irrational you are! Who told you anybody here has offended me! I just don't want to waste my time on people who are not interesting to me (to put it very, very mildly )

Arteum:

Yes, it's true that many, maybe even most, Christians and other believers were brought up in faith-based households, and have thus been "indoctrinated" from an early age.  But this is not true of all.

I was raised in an atheist Jewish household by two parents who were rabidly anti-faith.  My father was a political type (he had been the Controller for the American Labor Party), so for him, religion was truly "the opiate of the masses."  My mother is a scientist - and thus completely steeped in rationalist, empircism and the scientific method - and so for her God and faith and religion are just so much hooey.  My two brothers followed mostly in my father's footsteps, becoming ultra-political, and both of them are also rabid atheists.

So I was not, in any way, brought up in or around God, faith or religion.  Indeed, I was raised by two atheist college professors in a very rational, intellectual, academic environment, one in which socio-politics, language, history, psychology and other subjects were the core.  And no, I did not reject that environment in favor of faith.

Rather, I simply found myself a "seeker" of sorts by 15.  I wasn't looking for God, or necessarily even faith, but there was "something" in me that felt that the rational, empirical world was not all there was.  At 15, I began studying yoga and Eastern philosophy with Swami Satchidananda, with whom I studied for a little over three years (and remained an acquaintance for over a decade more).  I also undertook a self-created study in comparative religion, reading the underlying texts of every major (and many minor) religions, including the Bible, the Qur'an, the Rig-Vedas, the Shinto texts, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, the Zoroastrian texts, the Jainist texts, and even all available information on the Native American Great Spirit belief and the Australian aborigine Dreamtime belief.  This study was furthered by a year of Bible study and a year of comparative religions in college, and ongoing discussions and debates with priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, swamis, and other faith-based leaders.  I spent about 8 years in this study.

During that time (at about 19), I became a "believer" (in God, though not yet in Christ).  It was not so much a "revelation"  or a "bolt from the blue."  Rather, it was as if someone turned on a light switch and I knew there was a God.  And no, there was nothing happening in my life at the time - psycho-emotionally or otherwise - that might have caused this from some "need" for a "crutch."  One moment I was an agnostic; the next I was a believer.  As simple as that.

It took another 3 years before I was convinced ("intellectually," if not completely spiritually) that Jesus was exactly who He claimed to be, and that the Judeo-Christian "story" was the one that not only made the most sense to me, but proved itself to be the most "internally" consistent.

At 22, I accepted Christ, though in retrospect it was something of a wimpy baptism: i.e., I was accepting more from my "head" than from my "heart."  Still, I did believe.  The next 10 years were essentially wasted, though there was some growth in my faith.  However, during the next ten years, I became increasingly devout, studying my Bible more...religiously (), and making more conscious concerted efforts to life a Christ-like life.  Ten years later (2002), I started my ministry after a series of events that would take too long to go into here.

So you would be in error to suppose that I was raised a Christian, or that I was somehow "indoctrinated."  Indeed, not only is my faith not a "rejection" of, "reaction" to or "rebellion" against my rational, intellectual upbringing, but in fact my upbringing brings to my faith something that may be lacking, or at least minimized, in those who were raised in faith-based households.  And it is for this very reason - that I have both my rational, intellectual upbringing and my strong faith and spiritual understanding and discernment - that I am able not only to articulate my beliefs well, but do so with the same academic and intellectual "knowledge" that the "other side" (the rationalist, empirical and scientific community) has.

Peace.

Edited by maani

Arteum wrote: dropForge wrote: Looks like there's one thing many of us agree on: with a couple of exceptions, ELP's got some pretty crappy lyrics! I think Greg cooked 'em up on the fly, most of the time... Btw, I've always wondered why atheists like to yak about God so much. If you don't believe in God, why would He even be a concern? It doesn't seem..."logical." Hmmm...  With so much religion as there is in US, I in fact ignore 99% of it. But sometimes I think I might just ask (mayn't I?) why people want to abandon logic and stick to some vaguely formulated unbelievable-in beliefs. Recently, however, I've been applying more and more strict "filtering" to my acquaintances and contacts. If the person believes in God, I stop talking to him/her. Right now this policy does not apply to my boss, but it will be soon applied to the members of this forum.

Hmm.. You are in fact extremely arrogant when it comes to religious people. It seems to me that you think you are more intelligent than religious people. Am I right? I really can't see how you can disagree with me on this

erlenst wrote: Arteum wrote: dropForge wrote: Looks like there's one thing many of us agree on: with a couple of exceptions, ELP's got some pretty crappy lyrics! I think Greg cooked 'em up on the fly, most of the time... Btw, I've always wondered why atheists like to yak about God so much. If you don't believe in God, why would He even be a concern? It doesn't seem..."logical." Hmmm...  With so much religion as there is in US, I in fact ignore 99% of it. But sometimes I think I might just ask (mayn't I?) why people want to abandon logic and stick to some vaguely formulated unbelievable-in beliefs. Recently, however, I've been applying more and more strict "filtering" to my acquaintances and contacts. If the person believes in God, I stop talking to him/her. Right now this policy does not apply to my boss, but it will be soon applied to the members of this forum. Hmm.. You are in fact extremely arrogant when it comes to religious people. It seems to me that you think you are more intelligent than religious people. Am I right? I really can't see how you can disagree with me on this

Of course! Religion suppresses free thinking (and consequently intellect) don't you know? To me, people who believe in God either have a flawed brain (it cannot follow logic sometimes) or are simply cowards who are afraid to die, or both.

I am not arrogant. I am, in fact, honest. If I think something (someone) is wrong I say it. 

Arteum wrote: erlenst wrote: Arteum wrote: dropForge wrote: Looks like there's one thing many of us agree on: with a couple of exceptions, ELP's got some pretty crappy lyrics! I think Greg cooked 'em up on the fly, most of the time... Btw, I've always wondered why atheists like to yak about God so much. If you don't believe in God, why would He even be a concern? It doesn't seem..."logical." Hmmm...  With so much religion as there is in US, I in fact ignore 99% of it. But sometimes I think I might just ask (mayn't I?) why people want to abandon logic and stick to some vaguely formulated unbelievable-in beliefs. Recently, however, I've been applying more and more strict "filtering" to my acquaintances and contacts. If the person believes in God, I stop talking to him/her. Right now this policy does not apply to my boss, but it will be soon applied to the members of this forum. Hmm.. You are in fact extremely arrogant when it comes to religious people. It seems to me that you think you are more intelligent than religious people. Am I right? I really can't see how you can disagree with me on this Of course! Religion suppresses free thinking (and consequently intellect) don't you know? To me, people who believe in God either have a flawed brain (it cannot follow logic sometimes) or are simply cowards who are afraid to die, or both. I am not arrogant. I am, in fact, honest. If I think something (someone) is wrong I say it.

Hehe. Actually you are ridiculously arrogant and obviously overrate your own intellect. But it is no point in going into this, I know it has been discussed before and you will probably never understand how arrogant you in fact are.

By the way, I am not at all being mean or anything, I just really think that you very much fit the definition of arrogance.

ar-ro-gant
adj.
1.Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2.Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others: an arrogant contempt for the weak. See Synonyms at proud.

You obviously feel that your brain is superior to religious brains, ergo I think you are being arrogant.

maani wrote: Arteum: Yes, it's true that many, maybe even most, Christians and other believers were brought up in faith-based households, and have thus been "indoctrinated" from an early age.  But this is not true of all. I was raised in an atheist Jewish household by two parents who were rabidly anti-faith.  My father was a political type (he had been the Controller for the American Labor Party), so for him, religion was truly "the opiate of the masses."  My mother is a scientist - and thus completely steeped in rationalist, empircism and the scientific method - and so for her God and faith and religion are just so much hooey.  My two brothers followed mostly in my father's footsteps, becoming ultra-political, and both of them are also rabid atheists. So I was not, in any way, brought up in or around God, faith or religion.  Indeed, I was raised by two atheist college professors in a very rational, intellectual, academic environment, one in which socio-politics, language, history, psychology and other subjects were the core.  And no, I did not reject that environment in favor of faith. Rather, I simply found myself a "seeker" of sorts by 15.  I wasn't looking for God, or necessarily even faith, but there was "something" in me that felt that the rational, empirical world was not all there was.  At 15, I began studying yoga and Eastern philosophy with Swami Satchidananda, with whom I studied for a little over three years (and remained an acquaintance for over a decade more).  I also undertook a self-created study in comparative religion, reading the underlying texts of every major (and many minor) religions, including the Bible, the Qur'an, the Rig-Vedas, the Shinto texts, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, the Zoroastrian texts, the Jainist texts, and even all available information on the Native American Great Spirit belief and the Australian aborigine Dreamtime belief.  This study was furthered by a year of Bible study and a year of comparative religions in college, and ongoing discussions and debates with priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, swamis, and other faith-based leaders.  I spent about 8 years in this study. During that time (at about 19), I became a "believer" (in God, though not yet in Christ).  It was not so much a "revelation"  or a "bolt from the blue."  Rather, it was as if someone turned on a light switch and I knew there was a God.  And no, there was nothing happening in my life at the time - psycho-emotionally or otherwise - that might have caused this from some "need" for a "crutch."  One moment I was an agnostic; the next I was a believer.  As simple as that. It took another 3 years before I was convinced ("intellectually," if not completely spiritually) that Jesus was exactly who He claimed to be, and that the Judeo-Christian "story" was the one that not only made the most sense to me, but proved itself to be the most "internally" consistent. At 22, I accepted Christ, though in retrospect it was something of a wimpy baptism: i.e., I was accepting more from my "head" than from my "heart."  Still, I did believe.  The next 10 years were essentially wasted, though there was some growth in my faith.  However, during the next ten years, I became increasingly devout, studying my Bible more...religiously (), and making more conscious concerted efforts to life a Christ-like life.  Ten years later (2002), I started my ministry after a series of events that would take too long to go into here. So you would be in error to suppose that I was raised a Christian, or that I was somehow "indoctrinated."  Indeed, not only is my faith not a "rejection" of, "reaction" to or "rebellion" against my rational, intellectual upbringing, but in fact my upbringing brings to my faith something that may be lacking, or at least minimized, in those who were raised in faith-based households.  And it is for this very reason - that I have both my rational, intellectual upbringing and my strong faith and spiritual understanding and discernment - that I am able not only to articulate my beliefs well, but do so with the same academic and intellectual "knowledge" that the "other side" (the rationalist, empirical and scientific community) has. Peace.

Maani, that is an interesting story. You are probably one of the few who came to religion from secular environment. I am only wondering why you did that? Were you thinking that science and rationalism (and atheism) were too difficult for you to follow [yes, everybody knows that math is MUCH more difficult than handwaving], or you just found them wrong (incorrect)? Wrong in what? Of course, the "rational world" is not "all there is". There exists art (literature, philosophy, paiting ...) -- your resort did not have to be religion.

And I see one serious problem with your education. Although you were not brainwashed as a child, you were seriously brainwashed during years of "treatment" by priests, mullas, lammas ...  and "other faith-based leaders". You were out of touch with reality for so many years! You probably have no idea about physics, do you? Or you read about its evil teachings in "Watchtower"? Did you have as many conversations with scientists and rational people in general? Now it's too late for you anyway. It will be impossible to undo the years of brainwashing. Practice shows that in many cases even a couple of years of influence of religion is incurable.

One thing I learned seeing the generaous religious zeal on this forum: the attachment to prog does not depend on one's philosophy.


Edited by Arteum

ELP anti Christian?

If I needed one that's one more reason to love them.