The lyrics of many ELP songs clearly are against Christianity:

ELP are a crime against Humanity.

I say ban them and burn their supporters!

Hah, You want Anti-Christian?

Mayhem-Necrolust

Post edited from this point

King of Loss wrote: Hah, You want Anti-Christian? Mayhem-Necrolust edited

Eww...

I thought the people here liked the music for the music, not for who the players are, how they think, or who they worship. Atleast I haven't heard any one here say "Queen is bad because the lead singer is gay." I can't count how many times I have heard that in mainstream reviews. Another thing, there have been countless fans of Elton John that just abandoned him because of his sexual preferance. So sad.

AtomHeartMother wrote: I thought the people here liked the music for the music, not for who the players are, how they think, or who they worship. Atleast I haven't heard any one here say "Queen is bad because the lead singer is gay." I can't count how many times I have heard that in mainstream reviews. Another thing, there have been countless fans of Elton John that just abandoned him because of his sexual preferance. So sad.

Some people want to know a bit about their artists, and what inspires them.  if ELP's members wrote lyrics about their dislike of the church, it's still something people may want to know.

but odn't worry, I think most prog fans can look beyond things like religious or sexual preference and just look at the music.  Or at least the smart ones .

I have been listening to Prog since I was 13. A born-again, Bible believing Christian since 28. I have been saved for nearly 20 years, am currently a member of an old time Baptist church, have read the KJV 1611 Bible from cover to cover more times then I remember and have preached the Word 100's of times from pulpits, on street corners, in rescue missions, care homes and more places that I can remember. Though i have been Born again, and much of my life has changed and most of my old sins have passed away, there remains some things that have not. i still surf, enjoy an occasional cold beer and I still love Prog! many of my brethren are apalled or even offended that i still listen to the music of the world, but God knows my heart, I love Prog.. Now, to the issue at hand, is ELP against christianity? Or are ELP against Christ?

  First of all, The Bible states " Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is anti-Christ, that denieth both the Father and the Son....1 John 2:22

       According to the Bible, any man that denys the Diety of the man Christ is a liar and is anti-Christ and for that one could say that Greg Lake (if he be the writing of those lyrics is certainly anti-Christ) as with so many other artist. Christ said "  He that is not with me is against me"..Matt. 12:30  This is the "narrow minded"  doctrine of the Christian faith that so many despise and I believe..

 But the second point to be made is the fact that many of these men are not so much against Christ as they are against the hypocrisy of what has become know as "Christianity" We all can see how the professed churches of  our day have become sepulchres of Hypocrisy and the life of the religion, it;s buildings and it's assests is of far more impotance then the life of a soul, and I often find this attitude against the churches Hypocrisy prevalent is music. And to this I agree. A classic example of this is the song "Wind up" from Aqualung. Anderson slams the Bishops and their  hypocrisys while all the while crying out "He is not the kind you have to wind up on Sunday!" I must stop. Against Christ? It is to their shame.. Against the hypocrisy of religion? I say AMEN.....

As most members know, I am a full-time Protestant minister.  I've been in Christ for over 20 years, and in the full-time ministry for three.  I love ice cream, action movies, and secular - and particularly progressive - music.  I don't like people who say "like" every third word, women who talk like truck drivers, and hypocrites who claim a mantle of Christianity with little understanding of the very person they claim to follow.

In short, I agree with both prog1611 and alan.  But, at the risk of turning this thread into yet another "religious" discussion, I would like to add something.

"True" Christians (an admittedly loaded term) know and understand that we are not here to judge or condemn.  In fact, we are strictly forbidden from doing either.  Judgment and condemnation are reserved solely and exclusively to Christ on Judgment Day.  We are here to live a "Christ-like" life - love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service and truth.  We are here to preach the Gospel and proselytize - but not to "ram it down people's throats" or judge or condemn them if they choose not to listen.

That the vast majority of mainstream, heirarchical, "organized" Christianity does not get this - that it is dangerously apostate, and often even comes across with narrow, unloving, unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian views and positions - is sad in the extreme, and is what makes "organized Christianity" its own worst enemy.

Is ELP anti-Christian?  I couldn't care less.  Because if they are, it is between them and God, and is not for me to judge.  I can still enjoy their music, and admire and respect their talent.

Peace.

maani wrote: As most members know, I am a full-time Protestant minister.  I've been in Christ for over 20 years, and in the full-time ministry for three.  I love ice cream, action movies, and secular - and particularly progressive - music.  I don't like people who say "like" every third word, women who talk like truck drivers, and hypocrites who claim a mantle of Christianity with little understanding of the very person they claim to follow. In short, I agree with both prog1611 and alan.  But, at the risk of turning this thread into yet another "religious" discussion, I would like to add something. "True" Christians (an admittedly loaded term) know and understand that we are not here to judge or condemn.  In fact, we are strictly forbidden from doing either.  Judgment and condemnation are reserved solely and exclusively to Christ on Judgment Day.  We are here to live a "Christ-like" life - love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service and truth.  We are here to preach the Gospel and proselytize - but not to "ram it down people's throats" or judge or condemn them if they choose not to listen. That the vast majority of mainstream, heirarchical, "organized" Christianity does not get this - that it is dangerously apostate, and often even comes across with narrow, unloving, unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian views and positions - is sad in the extreme, and is what makes "organized Christianity" its own worst enemy. Is ELP anti-Christian?  I couldn't care less.  Because if they are, it is between them and God, and is not for me to judge.  I can still enjoy their music, and admire and respect their talent. Peace.

well said

maani wrote: As most members know, I am a full-time Protestant minister.  I've been in Christ for over 20 years, and in the full-time ministry for three.  I love ice cream, action movies, and secular - and particularly progressive - music.  I don't like people who say "like" every third word, women who talk like truck drivers, and hypocrites who claim a mantle of Christianity with little understanding of the very person they claim to follow. In short, I agree with both prog1611 and alan.  But, at the risk of turning this thread into yet another "religious" discussion, I would like to add something. "True" Christians (an admittedly loaded term) know and understand that we are not here to judge or condemn.  In fact, we are strictly forbidden from doing either.  Judgment and condemnation are reserved solely and exclusively to Christ on Judgment Day.  We are here to live a "Christ-like" life - love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service and truth.  We are here to preach the Gospel and proselytize - but not to "ram it down people's throats" or judge or condemn them if they choose not to listen. That the vast majority of mainstream, heirarchical, "organized" Christianity does not get this - that it is dangerously apostate, and often even comes across with narrow, unloving, unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian views and positions - is sad in the extreme, and is what makes "organized Christianity" its own worst enemy. Is ELP anti-Christian?  I couldn't care less.  Because if they are, it is between them and God, and is not for me to judge.  I can still enjoy their music, and admire and respect their talent. Peace.

Geez maani...

once again, couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm not a religious person (though I used to be when I was younger), but the way I live my life is based on respect towards my fellow people. That's way I really dislike when religious movements try to ram their beliefs down my throat or influence the laws of the State where I live. As I live in Italy, you can only imagine how difficult it can be to deal with the constant influence of the Catholic Church. However, I am not an advocate of atheism (I consider myself more of an agnostic) and I equally dislike those who have made of their atheism a form of "religion". Things are much more complicated than that.

Unfortunately, the majority of the religious people I have met in my life have not been a good advertisement for their beliefs, too often lacking that fundamental quality of empathy and understanding towards others. As my signature says, "quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand...". That said, I don't care what a musician believes (I draw the line at things like Mayhem, though), as long as he or she makes good music.

I'm against christianity

maani wrote: As most members know, I am a full-time Protestant minister.  I've been in Christ for over 20 years, and in the full-time ministry for three.  I love ice cream, action movies, and secular - and particularly progressive - music.  I don't like people who say "like" every third word, women who talk like truck drivers, and hypocrites who claim a mantle of Christianity with little understanding of the very person they claim to follow. In short, I agree with both prog1611 and alan.  But, at the risk of turning this thread into yet another "religious" discussion, I would like to add something. "True" Christians (an admittedly loaded term) know and understand that we are not here to judge or condemn.  In fact, we are strictly forbidden from doing either.  Judgment and condemnation are reserved solely and exclusively to Christ on Judgment Day.  We are here to live a "Christ-like" life - love, peace, forgiveness, humility, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service and truth.  We are here to preach the Gospel and proselytize - but not to "ram it down people's throats" or judge or condemn them if they choose not to listen. That the vast majority of mainstream, heirarchical, "organized" Christianity does not get this - that it is dangerously apostate, and often even comes across with narrow, unloving, unforgiving and ultimately un-Christian views and positions - is sad in the extreme, and is what makes "organized Christianity" its own worst enemy. Is ELP anti-Christian?  I couldn't care less.  Because if they are, it is between them and God, and is not for me to judge.  I can still enjoy their music, and admire and respect their talent. Peace.

Thank you

I'm not a big ELP fan but I am a christian and I'd much rather listen to ELP anyday than 99% of CCM (cheesy christian music.)

Maani can I use your argument next time my christian friends judge my atheistic music?

I did not take the lyrics to The Only Way (Hymn) as anti-Christian - quite the reverse. This song presents a view of the world, but not necessarily the view of the group. The album story of Tarkus/Aquatarkus is dystopian, elements of which are referred to in Brain Salad Surgery, Love Beach and Black Moon.

There are, in any case, Christians who do not believe in Consubstantiation or Transubstatiation.

Jerusalem, by Parry and Blake, which is played with verve and enthusiasm on Brain Salad Surgery, is a right-wing Protestant Christian song.  

I dunno if ELP are anti-Christian but they're certainly anti-Music

I love those lyrics. It's a shame Lake doesn't sing them a bit better , but the sentiment, the frustration strikes a chord with me.

I dont really care whether ELP, or any band for that matter are religous or not, as long as they dont try to preach at me on every track. I would find that offensive.

Blasphemy! 

Man, they really should've focused on playing and deep-sixed the lyrics.....that shyte is less than drivel...."why did he lose 6 million Jews"....tasteless.

Intruder wrote: Blasphemy!  Man, they really should've focused on playing and deep-sixed the lyrics.....that shyte is less than drivel...."why did he lose 6 million Jews"....tasteless.

Why is that tasteless? You could say it's a valid question.

Are you one of those people who screams anti-semitism everytime the word 'Jew' is used in whatever context..??

Arteum wrote: alan_pfeifer wrote: Well said, prog1611.  I've grown up in the church (12 years as a lutheran, became a Methodist about 4 years ago, funny how we christians have to divide up so much huh ?)  But I often find church a bit reliant on the technical side of things, too worried about the lighting, not about the soul, as you said.  it pains me at times to see what Christianity has become today.  We should have our Church of Prog here Too many believers here, even since the time they were unconscious.

Well said, though I read in a russian mp3 site that "Yes founded the church of prog" already!

Seriously, I didn't notice there were so many believers here, especially after the silly thread "Why"... (don't say the thread itself was silly, but the number of stupid posts made it so. thanks again for moving it, maani!!!) Even my friend JesusBetancourt used to think he was the only Christian here!!!

Actually I personally don't think progarchives is a place to discuss religion and anti-religion, but I couldn't help putting a post on here, after the suggestion to found a "church of prog"... I'm in trouble with my fellow believers, and in desperate need of finding Christian proggers, those who both believe in God, and appreciate good music!

I will definitely make use of maani's subtle arguments in my discussions with Christians, who don't have a sense of music! (including my fiancee!)

The music played in churches is great, though! Even Wakeman (another believer in regard) made use of church organ. Remember the magnificent Awaken, and the overlooked Parallels in the same album.

So, let us believers "cling together" in prog, as well as in Christ!

Arteum:

Thank you for your kind words.  Once quibble, however.  Atheism is not based on "logic."  It is based on rationalism and empiricism.  But these are different than "logic."  The reason that atheism cannot be based on logic is that, using "pure" logic, one could provide a theorum for or against the existence of God.  (It has been done, so I know this.)  "Logic" in this regard becomes "circular," so it can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God.

Rationalism and empiricism, however, can make stronger, more "bindable" arguments against the existence of God.

Spectral:

Thank you. 

Video Vertigo:

Actually, there is some very good CCM (contemporary Christian music) out there.  Let me suggest four artists.  DC Talk, Richard Mullins, Keith Green, Carolyn Arends.  Try them first and let me know what you think.

Intruder:

It is a common fallacy that "everything that happens, whether good or bad" is something God "did" (or didn't do).  This negates the existence of Satan, who is the "ruler of this world." (Emphasis mine.)  God did not "lose" 6,000,000 Jews.  Satan caused their death.  No, this does not get God "off the hook" for everything that happens.  But it is important to understand the difference.

It reminds me of one question that was asked in the aftermath of 9/11: Where was God when 3,000 innocent people were killed?  One answer (though it may not satisfy the families of those people) is that God was saving the other 45,000 people in the buildings.

Bilek:

I think I need to "qualify" something here, before you get yourself in trouble.

There is a legitimate Christian argument against secular music, and particularly secular lyrics.  That argument is that, if one does not have true "spiritual fortitude," it is possible for the enemy to "wheedle himself" into a person's life via secular, and particularly "anti-Christian" or non-Christian lyrics.

Thus, it is one thing for those with strong faith and spiritual fortitude to listen to secular music and enjoy it for what it is, because it is unlikely that they will be "swayed" in any way.  However, for those who are not yet spiritually strong and "secure," secular music and lyrics do have the potential to be "harmful."

Peace to all.

maani wrote: Arteum: Thank you for your kind words.  Once quibble, however.  Atheism is not based on "logic."  It is based on rationalism and empiricism.  But these are different than "logic."  The reason that atheism cannot be based on logic is that, using "pure" logic, one could provide a theorum for or against the existence of God.  (It has been done, so I know this.)  "Logic" in this regard becomes "circular," so it can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Rationalism and empiricism, however, can make stronger, more "bindable" arguments against the existence of God.

I agree that atheism is based on rationalism and empiricism. But the chief element of these is logic! Whereas religion discards logic almost completely (yes, the very existence of God is illogical, yet one still has to believe in God, just because one MUST), science relies on it almost completely. Anything that is illogical (irrational) is ignored by science.

In fact, science does not need any proofs or disproofs to declare the subject ridiculous. I cannot prove that there is no two-headed tiger in the adjacent room at this very moment. But logic does not even want to consider the question as it is obviously ridiculous. Or, logicians may simply apply the Ockham rasor. Now, the Ockham rasor shaves off God, Jesus, Heaven and Hell very easily. None of these ridiculous, never proven (and without any hope to be ever proved) concepts are needed for the explanation of the way the world works. How the grown-up adults fail to see it is beyond any understanding.    Except that they were heavily brainwashed since the time they could not even think on their own.

I see why most people here tend to be believers -- because they are predominantly Westeners and were born and raised in religious families, schools, societies (religion is inseparable from capitalist society as it is easiest to sell, and business is what the capitalism is about). All these people did not have the opportunity to think on their own. Now I am coming from the secular family, school and society. All the people around me were aware of religion and its dogmas, but laughed about the stupidity and shortsitedness of the brainwashed part of the world. It never occured to people around me to worship any kind of supernatural deity whose existence is more than doubtful and will never be confirmed. Where I was born, if you believe in God, everyone thinks you're in need of a doctor. That's kind of what I think when I see some 90% of Americans are religious. But there is nothing surprising about it -- Americans are proven to be the least educated, the least fond of reading and thinking, among the economically developed nations (isn't America all about entertainment and "fun"?).

If this was a Russian intellectual forum (I hope progarchives is aspiring to be concerned about intellect, at least a little), anyone expressing (practicing) religious views would be torn to pieces.

Ricochet wrote: Only one song and ELP's anti-christian?I'm gonna need many more examples like that to believe...

Here you go.

Sidney grabbed a hatchet, buried it .... in Benny's head.
The people gasped as he bled:
The end of a Ted?

Well, they dragged him from the wreckage of the Palais in bits.
They tried to stick together all the bits that would fit.
But some of him was missing
and "part of him" arrived too late,
So now he works for Jesus
As the bouncer at St. Peter's Gate.

to completely change the topic....

I find it funny, but often frustrating, how many rock bands (particularly metal) are commonly percieved as anti-christian or even satanic in nature, when in reality the opposite is true.  The prime example for me is Black Sabbath, often seen as a dark satanic band, but when one looks at the lyrics of songs like "After Forever", "N.I.B." and "Into the Void", they are clearly anti-satanic, even pro-christ.

The point being, even in the case of ELP, just because a band uses religious imagery does not mean they are casting religion in a negative light, poking fun, or promoting anti-religious sentiments.

Ricochet wrote: so? BTW,"so now he works for Jesus"...how anti-christian

Hey, Mr Smart! Benny was a regular stupid cutthroat even when his head was all right. When part of his brain got missing, he was not able to work even as a decent bouncer -- he could only "work for Jesus" now. Because no brain is needed to believe in God.

Looks like there's one thing many of us agree on: with a couple of exceptions, ELP's got some pretty crappy lyrics! I think Greg cooked 'em up on the fly, most of the time...

Btw, I've always wondered why atheists like to yak about God so much. If you don't believe in God, why would He even be a concern? It doesn't seem..."logical." Hmmm... 

dropForge wrote: Looks like there's one thing many of us agree on: with a couple of exceptions, ELP's got some pretty crappy lyrics! I think Greg cooked 'em up on the fly, most of the time... Btw, I've always wondered why atheists like to yak about God so much. If you don't believe in God, why would He even be a concern? It doesn't seem..."logical." Hmmm...

With so much religion as there is in US, I in fact ignore 99% of it. But sometimes I think I might just ask (mayn't I?) why people want to abandon logic and stick to some vaguely formulated unbelievable-in beliefs.

Recently, however, I've been applying more and more strict "filtering" to my acquaintances and contacts. If the person believes in God, I stop talking to him/her. Right now this policy does not apply to my boss, but it will be soon applied to the members of this forum.

dropForge wrote: Looks like there's one thing many of us agree on: with a couple of exceptions, ELP's got some pretty crappy lyrics! I think Greg cooked 'em up on the fly, most of the time... Btw, I've always wondered why atheists like to yak about God so much. If you don't believe in God, why would He even be a concern? It doesn't seem..."logical." Hmmm...

It's not concern specifically. It's disbelief (or non comprehension) that people can be so irrational as to believe in something so un-scientific. I dont mean that to sound offensive; I am genuinely fascinated by peoples faith.

Broadly speeking, religion should be a concern for everyone whether they believe in a God or not. It can not have escaped anyones attention right now there is a war going on between Islam and the Christian world. It may be dressed up as something different by our leaders and media, but thats what I believe it amounts to. Religion is at the core of this conflict, the conflict affects all of us, therefore religion affects all of us. Even the athiests.

This is not the right place for this discussion, so thats all I'll say.

GoldenSpiral wrote: to completely change the topic.... I find it funny, but often frustrating, how many rock bands (particularly metal) are commonly percieved as anti-christian or even satanic in nature, when in reality the opposite is true.  The prime example for me is Black Sabbath, often seen as a dark satanic band, but when one looks at the lyrics of songs like "After Forever", "N.I.B." and "Into the Void", they are clearly anti-satanic, even pro-christ. The point being, even in the case of ELP, just because a band uses religious imagery does not mean they are casting religion in a negative light, poking fun, or promoting anti-religious sentiments.

Very good observation!

I happened to figure out the pro-christ lyrics in After Forever, but hadn't paid attention to the other two. It's really a treat to see how people judge everything (avant-garde people and events in particular) with prejudice, without even giving heed to what they actually say!

The only thing I would object in After Forever would be the line about "the Pope", just because I'm not a catholic and don't believe he ever had the right to "represent" Christianity, let alone Christ... I would easily overlook, however, since Catholic church is still the landmark of Christianity in common man's mind...

The thing about ELP is different, however. I'd still go for the fact that I like their music alone, not approving what they actually say. And I'm somehow strong in faith, maani! so don't worry!

Arteum wrote: Recently, however, I've been applying more and more strict "filtering" to my acquaintances and contacts. If the person believes in God, I stop talking to him/her. Right now this policy does not apply to my boss, but it will be soon applied to the members of this forum.

Now you sound like an infant. Nobody here has offended you.

What a great thread:(

Next will be "Do farmers wives really hate optically challenged mice so much that they have to have their tails chopped off?? or "How terrible it is to try to sell a dog and display it in a shop window"

I love ELP but would be the first to agree some of their lyrics are crap so if I want something totally sensible and coherent, I listen to Yes! LOL

I just thought I'd waste more band width because thats all this thread is.

Arteum:

Yes, it's true that many, maybe even most, Christians and other believers were brought up in faith-based households, and have thus been "indoctrinated" from an early age.  But this is not true of all.

I was raised in an atheist Jewish household by two parents who were rabidly anti-faith.  My father was a political type (he had been the Controller for the American Labor Party), so for him, religion was truly "the opiate of the masses."  My mother is a scientist - and thus completely steeped in rationalist, empircism and the scientific method - and so for her God and faith and religion are just so much hooey.  My two brothers followed mostly in my father's footsteps, becoming ultra-political, and both of them are also rabid atheists.

So I was not, in any way, brought up in or around God, faith or religion.  Indeed, I was raised by two atheist college professors in a very rational, intellectual, academic environment, one in which socio-politics, language, history, psychology and other subjects were the core.  And no, I did not reject that environment in favor of faith.

Rather, I simply found myself a "seeker" of sorts by 15.  I wasn't looking for God, or necessarily even faith, but there was "something" in me that felt that the rational, empirical world was not all there was.  At 15, I began studying yoga and Eastern philosophy with Swami Satchidananda, with whom I studied for a little over three years (and remained an acquaintance for over a decade more).  I also undertook a self-created study in comparative religion, reading the underlying texts of every major (and many minor) religions, including the Bible, the Qur'an, the Rig-Vedas, the Shinto texts, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, the Zoroastrian texts, the Jainist texts, and even all available information on the Native American Great Spirit belief and the Australian aborigine Dreamtime belief.  This study was furthered by a year of Bible study and a year of comparative religions in college, and ongoing discussions and debates with priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, swamis, and other faith-based leaders.  I spent about 8 years in this study.

During that time (at about 19), I became a "believer" (in God, though not yet in Christ).  It was not so much a "revelation"  or a "bolt from the blue."  Rather, it was as if someone turned on a light switch and I knew there was a God.  And no, there was nothing happening in my life at the time - psycho-emotionally or otherwise - that might have caused this from some "need" for a "crutch."  One moment I was an agnostic; the next I was a believer.  As simple as that.

It took another 3 years before I was convinced ("intellectually," if not completely spiritually) that Jesus was exactly who He claimed to be, and that the Judeo-Christian "story" was the one that not only made the most sense to me, but proved itself to be the most "internally" consistent.

At 22, I accepted Christ, though in retrospect it was something of a wimpy baptism: i.e., I was accepting more from my "head" than from my "heart."  Still, I did believe.  The next 10 years were essentially wasted, though there was some growth in my faith.  However, during the next ten years, I became increasingly devout, studying my Bible more...religiously (), and making more conscious concerted efforts to life a Christ-like life.  Ten years later (2002), I started my ministry after a series of events that would take too long to go into here.

So you would be in error to suppose that I was raised a Christian, or that I was somehow "indoctrinated."  Indeed, not only is my faith not a "rejection" of, "reaction" to or "rebellion" against my rational, intellectual upbringing, but in fact my upbringing brings to my faith something that may be lacking, or at least minimized, in those who were raised in faith-based households.  And it is for this very reason - that I have both my rational, intellectual upbringing and my strong faith and spiritual understanding and discernment - that I am able not only to articulate my beliefs well, but do so with the same academic and intellectual "knowledge" that the "other side" (the rationalist, empirical and scientific community) has.

Peace.

manni,  you should write a book.  seriously.

we're once again off topic, but this is really interesting to me. 

I would consider myself a christian, but in a very "liberal" sense.  I believe in the teachings of Jesus, but I have problems with accepting the divinity of the Bible (i.e. how is it the direct Word of God if it was written by men decades after the actual events...), as well as the fact that many christians seem to put more emphasis on out-of-context quotations from the Old Testament than on the actual teachings of Christ.

It is great to see someone who's well versed in just about every major philosophy and religion discussing Christianity in a manner BOTH intellectual and spiritual.  I have for a long time been interested in the possibility of reconciling people's beliefs, which after all are usually not as dissimilar as they think.  Is a Christian God really that different from a Muslim God, or a native american Spirit?  are the teachings of Christ very different from the teachings of Taoism?  the seem pretty similar to me anyway...

Arteum wrote: Maani, that is an interesting story. You are probably one of the few who came to religion from secular environment. I am only wondering why you did that? Were you thinking that science and rationalism (and atheism) were too difficult for you to follow [yes, everybody knows that math is MUCH more difficult than handwaving], or you just found them wrong (incorrect)? Wrong in what? Of course, the "rational world" is not "all there is". There exists art (literature, philosophy, paiting ...) -- your resort did not have to be religion. And I see one serious problem with your education. Although you were not brainwashed as a child, you were seriously brainwashed during years of "treatment" by priests, mullas, lammas ...  and "other faith-based leaders". You were out of touch with reality for so many years! You probably have no idea about physics, do you? Or you read about its evil teachings in "Watchtower"? Did you have as many conversations with scientists and rational people in general? Now it's too late for you anyway. It will be impossible to undo the years of brainwashing. Practice shows that in many cases even a couple of years of influence of religion is incurable. One thing I learned seeing the generaous religious zeal on this forum: the attachment to prog does not depend on one's philosophy.

WTF does physics have to do with religion?  Just because someone is religious doesnt mean they dont understand science!  It has forever baffled me that most people find no possibility for a reconciliation between science and religion.  unless you are a total fundamentalist, science should not be a threat to the existence of God.  understanding the universe and understanding God are roughly the same goal.  Intelligent theologists know that understanding God is impossible, and modern scientists know that fully understanding the universe is impossible (because by observing the universe you change the outcome).  Neither topic can be reduced to a one sentence answer or any concise explanation. 

Arteum:

Again, you proceed from false assumption.  Firstly, my grounding is science - and, ironically, particularly physics - is almost unarguably greater than yours.  I was a student of Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist who is one of the major proponents of the superstring theory.  I dare say I have read more "hard science" books than you have, in more areas of science, including physics, biology, chemistry, anthropology, naturalism, etc.  I am conversant in areas as diverse as the mating habits of lions and the properties of quarks, gluons, mesons and neutrinos.  And I take a back seat to no one (other than trained scientists) in astrophysics and superstring theory - not out of arrogance, but because I have read and studied more deeply than most.

Evolution?  I would bet that 90% of the people who engage in debate on this issue have never even read "The Origin of Species" or "Descent of Man," or read them so long ago that they haven't the foggiest idea what they actually say.  I have read both of them twice, once only months ago, so they are fresh in my mind.  You are probably one who thinks that Darwin was an atheist who set out to disprove the existence of God.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Darwin was a Christian whose only earned degree was in theology.  And though his faith wavered at times, he remained a Christian throughout his life, becoming a deacon of his church, and being buried in Westminster Abbey.

What Darwin set out to prove was not that God did not create life.  He set out to prove that God did not create every individual plant, insect, animal, etc. as an act of "special creation," but that species "evolved" through "natural selection."  However, Darwin credited that to God.  The following is quoted from the "Summary and Recapitulation" of "The Origin of Species":

"Authors of the highest eminence seem to be fully satisfied with the view that each species has been independently created.  To my mind, it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed upon matter by the Creator that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes...There is grandeur in this view of life...having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one."  (Emphases mine.)  Not exactly a stinging rebuke of those who believe in God, is it?  Thus, Darwin believed that the "laws of the universe" - including evolution - were "impressed upon matter" by God.  There is no other interpretation of his statement.

You say faith "represses" thinking?  Au contrarie!  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."  Similarly, the "Judeo-Christian construct" I believe in has far more room for the secular - logic, science, psychology, philosophy, etc. - than your narrow atheistic construct has for faith, metaphyics and anything you can't see, hear, taste, touch or smell.  So whose thinking is being repressed?

Flawed brain?  I was invited to join Mensa when I was 15.  I was an honors math student from 5th to 10th grade.  I had the highest sophomore average in the history of my high school.  I am a national champion crossword puzzle solver.  I have never taken a law class, yet have won every case I have ever argued in court (over 15 of them), whether pro se or on behalf of others, out-arguing even high-priced attorneys.  I engage in reasoned, solidly supported debates with Ph.D.'s in a variety of subjects.

Flawed brain?  I think not.

Coward?  I'll tell you what.  Let's meet.  Then let's have someone put a gun to each of our heads.  Let's see who is afraid to die and who isn't.  Let's see who reacts from fear and who doesn't.  Does this mean I do not care about my life?  Of course not.  But it means that I have something you don't: an inner peace - a direct result of my faith - that it is unlikely you could achieve even if you wanted to.

Let me leave you with a quote from no less an authority on science and rationalism than Albert Einstein:

"Even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other, nevertheless there exists between the two strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies.  Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up.  But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding.  The source of this feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion.  To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason.  I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith.  The situation may be expressed by an image: religion without science is blind; science without religion is lame." (Emphasis mine.)

Peace.

Most people with something in there head knows all religions are yust fairytales invented by som people many 1000 years ago who dident understand beter now many 1000 years after that we shuld know beter we know that no god created Humans, that we are from the begining apes, and that the univers was created from a big bang not some god, i have never belived in any god and never will i know there is no one. Religons are for weakminded people who need something to belive in, and brainwashed idiots, who cant think for they selfs. That what i think.

And yust think about all the sh*t the religons have caused on the earth all the wars, even now people fight about religons, is that was your god hade planed? that we whuld kill ourself for him? if thats so he cant be very nice, realy after all terible things going on how can anyone belive in god, thats yust somthing i cant understand. if he realy existed shuldent he do somthing?

When all the arguments, contentions, debate and disputations have ceased, "Nevertheless, What saith the scriptures?".....

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad... Jesus Christ.. Matthew 12:30

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ. He is anti-christ that denieth both the Father and the Son..1 John 2:22

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ , let him be Anathema Maranatha... The apostle Paul.. 1 Corinthians 16:22

The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God..Psalms 14:1

 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword...Jesus Christ..Matthew 10:34

The Bible has has for  milleniums divided. Divided nations, peoples, households, friends and family. "Choose you this day whom ye will serve".. It is your choice. Receive or reject Christ. Saved or lost, heaven or hell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Now back to the music...

Zargus wrote: Most people with something in there head knows all religions are yust fairytales invented by som people many 1000 years ago who dident understand beter now many 1000 years after that we shuld know beter we know that no god created Humans, that we are from the begining apes, and that the univers was created from a big bang not some god, i have never belived in any god and never will i know there is no one. Religons are for weakminded people who need something to belive in, and brainwashed idiots, who cant think for they selfs. That what i think. And yust think about all the sh*t the religons have caused on the earth all the wars, even now people fight about religons, is that was your god hade planed? that we whuld kill ourself for him? if thats so he cant be very nice, realy after all terible things going on how can anyone belive in god, thats yust somthing i cant understand. if he realy existed shuldent he do somthing?

I NO!! HOW CAN ANY1 BELEEV IN GOD???!! PEEPLE HOO BELEEV IN GOD ARE A BUNCH OF FAJETS!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist. Seriously, people care too much about what religion other people believe in.  I've been a Catholic all my life and I respect other people's beliefs and thoughts.  You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want.  It's that simple.  Now let's go to the pub and 'ave a few rounds.

Prog1611 wrote: When all the arguments, contentions, debate and disputations have ceased, "Nevertheless, What saith the scriptures?"..... He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad... Jesus Christ.. Matthew 12:30 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ. He is anti-christ that denieth both the Father and the Son..1 John 2:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ , let him be Anathema Maranatha... The apostle Paul.. 1 Corinthians 16:22 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God..Psalms 14:1  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword...Jesus Christ..Matthew 10:34 The Bible has has for  milleniums divided. Divided nations, peoples, households, friends and family. "Choose you this day whom ye will serve".. It is your choice. Receive or reject Christ. Saved or lost, heaven or hell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Now back to the music...

this, IMO is the kind of argument that drives people away from christianity, because it is rhetoric of exclusion.  I guess some people are attracted to the heaven or hell black and white worldview, but to me quotes like that make Christ look like a negative kind of guy, and I prefer to think of Him as a source of peace.  Quoting single sentences (and even sentence fragments) from the Bible doesn't really mean much because they are out of context, and likely have a different meaning within the story. 

I think that if Christians lived by the Beatitudes instead of putting so much importance on the authoritarian "Thou Shalt Nots" of the commandments, Christianity would be a much more attractive religion.

Arteum wrote: The Wizard wrote: The lyrics of many ELP songs clearly are against Christianity: People are stirred, moved by the Word Kneel at the shrine, deceived by the wine How was the Earth conceived, Infinite Space Is there such a place? You must believe in the human race Can you believe, "God makes you breathe?" Why did he lose six million Jews?... Who looks on Life itself, who lights your way? Only you can say How can you just obey? Don't need the Word, now that you've heard Don't be afraid, Man is Man-made And when the hour comes, don't turn away Face the light of day And do it your way...it's the only way.   The Only Way, Tarkus     My beloved ELP I like the song about Benny even more: Sidney grabbed a hatchet, buried it .... in Benny's head. The people gasped as he bled: The end of a Ted? Well, they dragged him from the wreckage of the Palais in bits. They tried to stick together all the bits that would fit. But some of him was missing and "part of him" arrived too late, So now he works for Jesus As the bouncer at St. Peter's Gate. To me, as an antheist, this is very amusing. In general, I am very pleased when prog-rock bands are anti-religious or atheistic (which appears to be the case in most cases, I suppose) . I hope Steve Wilison is an atheist too.

Well buddy... when you die... you'll be in for a surprise!

Because no brain is needed to believe in God.[/QUOTE]

Obviously you have no brain ... why? Because it's been taken by Satan.

If ever a thread needed locking its this one.

GoldenSpiral wrote: Prog1611 wrote: When all the arguments, contentions, debate and disputations have ceased, "Nevertheless, What saith the scriptures?"..... He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad... Jesus Christ.. Matthew 12:30 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ. He is anti-christ that denieth both the Father and the Son..1 John 2:22 If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ , let him be Anathema Maranatha... The apostle Paul.. 1 Corinthians 16:22 The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God..Psalms 14:1  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword...Jesus Christ..Matthew 10:34 The Bible has has for  milleniums divided. Divided nations, peoples, households, friends and family. "Choose you this day whom ye will serve".. It is your choice. Receive or reject Christ. Saved or lost, heaven or hell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Now back to the music... this, IMO is the kind of argument that drives people away from christianity, because it is rhetoric of exclusion.  I guess some people are attracted to the heaven or hell black and white worldview, but to me quotes like that make Christ look like a negative kind of guy, and I prefer to think of Him as a source of peace.  Quoting single sentences (and even sentence fragments) from the Bible doesn't really mean much because they are out of context, and likely have a different meaning within the story.  I think that if Christians lived by the Beatitudes instead of putting so much importance on the authoritarian "Thou Shalt Nots" of the commandments, Christianity would be a much more attractive religion.

Great post.  Judging from your comments in this thread, you seem to have a great understanding of 'religion'. 

'we pull jesus from the hat

get into that

get into that'.

what does it mean?

maani wrote: Arteum: Again, you proceed from false assumption.  Firstly, my grounding is science - and, ironically, particularly physics - is almost unarguably greater than yours.  I was a student of Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist who is one of the major proponents of the superstring theory.  I dare say I have read more "hard science" books than you have, in more areas of science, including physics, biology, chemistry, anthropology, naturalism, etc.  I am conversant in areas as diverse as the mating habits of lions and the properties of quarks, gluons, mesons and neutrinos.  And I take a back seat to no one (other than trained scientists) in astrophysics and superstring theory - not out of arrogance, but because I have read and studied more deeply than most. Evolution?  I would bet that 90% of the people who engage in debate on this issue have never even read "The Origin of Species" or "Descent of Man," or read them so long ago that they haven't the foggiest idea what they actually say.  I have read both of them twice, once only months ago, so they are fresh in my mind.  You are probably one who thinks that Darwin was an atheist who set out to disprove the existence of God.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Darwin was a Christian whose only earned degree was in theology.  And though his faith wavered at times, he remained a Christian throughout his life, becoming a deacon of his church, and being buried in Westminster Abbey. What Darwin set out to prove was not that God did not create life.  He set out to prove that God did not create every individual plant, insect, animal, etc. as an act of "special creation," but that species "evolved" through "natural selection."  However, Darwin credited that to God.  The following is quoted from the "Summary and Recapitulation" of "The Origin of Species": "Authors of the highest eminence seem to be fully satisfied with the view that each species has been independently created.  To my mind, it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed upon matter by the Creator that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes...There is grandeur in this view of life...having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one."  (Emphases mine.)  Not exactly a stinging rebuke of those who believe in God, is it?  Thus, Darwin believed that the "laws of the universe" - including evolution - were "impressed upon matter" by God.  There is no other interpretation of his statement. You say faith "represses" thinking?  Au contrarie!  "There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophy."  Similarly, the "Judeo-Christian construct" I believe in has far more room for the secular - logic, science, psychology, philosophy, etc. - than your narrow atheistic construct has for faith, metaphyics and anything you can't see, hear, taste, touch or smell.  So whose thinking is being repressed? Flawed brain?  I was invited to join Mensa when I was 15.  I was an honors math student from 5th to 10th grade.  I had the highest sophomore average in the history of my high school.  I am a national champion crossword puzzle solver.  I have never taken a law class, yet have won every case I have ever argued in court (over 15 of them), whether pro se or on behalf of others, out-arguing even high-priced attorneys.  I engage in reasoned, solidly supported debates with Ph.D.'s in a variety of subjects. Flawed brain?  I think not. Coward?  I'll tell you what.  Let's meet.  Then let's have someone put a gun to each of our heads.  Let's see who is afraid to die and who isn't.  Let's see who reacts from fear and who doesn't.  Does this mean I do not care about my life?  Of course not.  But it means that I have something you don't: an inner peace - a direct result of my faith - that it is unlikely you could achieve even if you wanted to. Let me leave you with a quote from no less an authority on science and rationalism than Albert Einstein: "Even though the realms of religion and science in themselves are clearly marked off from each other, nevertheless there exists between the two strong reciprocal relationships and dependencies.  Though religion may be that which determines the goal, it has, nevertheless, learned from science, in the broadest sense, what means will contribute to the attainment of the goals it has set up.  But science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding.  The source of this feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion.  To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason.  I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith.  The situation may be expressed by an image: religion without science is blind; science without religion is lame." (Emphasis mine.) Peace.

I love Michio Kaku's books. Hyperspace is my favorite.

abyssyinfinity wrote: John Lennon was antireligious in Imagine when he played "...and no religion too... "?

we are talking about E L P,

not john lennon.

jitu wrote: 'we pull jesus from the hat get into that get into that'.   what does it mean?

The singer is comparing religon (Jesus) to magic (pulling a rabbit from a hat).

Arteum wrote: Ricochet wrote: Only one song and ELP's anti-christian?I'm gonna need many more examples like that to believe... Here you go. Sidney grabbed a hatchet, buried it .... in Benny's head. The people gasped as he bled: The end of a Ted? Well, they dragged him from the wreckage of the Palais in bits. They tried to stick together all the bits that would fit. But some of him was missing and "part of him" arrived too late, So now he works for Jesus As the bouncer at St. Peter's Gate.

OK

Try this since they are all Greg Lakes:

They sold me a dream of Christmas

THey sold me a Silent Night

They told me a Fairey Story

'Till I beleived in the Isrealite

Arteum wrote: dropForge wrote: Looks like there's one thing many of us agree on: with a couple of exceptions, ELP's got some pretty crappy lyrics! I think Greg cooked 'em up on the fly, most of the time... Btw, I've always wondered why atheists like to yak about God so much. If you don't believe in God, why would He even be a concern? It doesn't seem..."logical." Hmmm...  With so much religion as there is in US, I in fact ignore 99% of it. But sometimes I think I might just ask (mayn't I?) why people want to abandon logic and stick to some vaguely formulated unbelievable-in beliefs. Recently, however, I've been applying more and more strict "filtering" to my acquaintances and contacts. If the person believes in God, I stop talking to him/her. Right now this policy does not apply to my boss, but it will be soon applied to the members of this forum.

Ignorant, superficial, A**! What's next, no talking to people because of thier race?

The Wizard wrote: jitu wrote: 'we pull jesus from the hat get into that get into that'.   what does it mean? The singer is comparing religon (Jesus) to magic (pulling a rabbit from a hat).

No it is not!  Think of the title of the song Karn Evil; Carnival! It is about a show.  This is one of the exhibits.  Think of the barker outside the tent to sideshow trying to get people inside. " Pulling Jesus from a hat" is just a way to get people to pay the price and come inside.  No different than "Next up on a stool is a sight to make you drool, seven virgins and a mule, keep it cool, keep it cool". Maybe Threefates would know for sure but I always thought this song was a satire on TV.

Arteum wrote: maani wrote: Arteum: Yes, it's true that many, maybe even most, Christians and other believers were brought up in faith-based households, and have thus been "indoctrinated" from an early age.  But this is not true of all. I was raised in an atheist Jewish household by two parents who were rabidly anti-faith.  My father was a political type (he had been the Controller for the American Labor Party), so for him, religion was truly "the opiate of the masses."  My mother is a scientist - and thus completely steeped in rationalist, empircism and the scientific method - and so for her God and faith and religion are just so much hooey.  My two brothers followed mostly in my father's footsteps, becoming ultra-political, and both of them are also rabid atheists. So I was not, in any way, brought up in or around God, faith or religion.  Indeed, I was raised by two atheist college professors in a very rational, intellectual, academic environment, one in which socio-politics, language, history, psychology and other subjects were the core.  And no, I did not reject that environment in favor of faith. Rather, I simply found myself a "seeker" of sorts by 15.  I wasn't looking for God, or necessarily even faith, but there was "something" in me that felt that the rational, empirical world was not all there was.  At 15, I began studying yoga and Eastern philosophy with Swami Satchidananda, with whom I studied for a little over three years (and remained an acquaintance for over a decade more).  I also undertook a self-created study in comparative religion, reading the underlying texts of every major (and many minor) religions, including the Bible, the Qur'an, the Rig-Vedas, the Shinto texts, the Egyptian and Tibetan Books of the Dead, the Zoroastrian texts, the Jainist texts, and even all available information on the Native American Great Spirit belief and the Australian aborigine Dreamtime belief.  This study was furthered by a year of Bible study and a year of comparative religions in college, and ongoing discussions and debates with priests, ministers, rabbis, imams, swamis, and other faith-based leaders.  I spent about 8 years in this study. During that time (at about 19), I became a "believer" (in God, though not yet in Christ).  It was not so much a "revelation"  or a "bolt from the blue."  Rather, it was as if someone turned on a light switch and I knew there was a God.  And no, there was nothing happening in my life at the time - psycho-emotionally or otherwise - that might have caused this from some "need" for a "crutch."  One moment I was an agnostic; the next I was a believer.  As simple as that. It took another 3 years before I was convinced ("intellectually," if not completely spiritually) that Jesus was exactly who He claimed to be, and that the Judeo-Christian "story" was the one that not only made the most sense to me, but proved itself to be the most "internally" consistent. At 22, I accepted Christ, though in retrospect it was something of a wimpy baptism: i.e., I was accepting more from my "head" than from my "heart."  Still, I did believe.  The next 10 years were essentially wasted, though there was some growth in my faith.  However, during the next ten years, I became increasingly devout, studying my Bible more...religiously (), and making more conscious concerted efforts to life a Christ-like life.  Ten years later (2002), I started my ministry after a series of events that would take too long to go into here. So you would be in error to suppose that I was raised a Christian, or that I was somehow "indoctrinated."  Indeed, not only is my faith not a "rejection" of, "reaction" to or "rebellion" against my rational, intellectual upbringing, but in fact my upbringing brings to my faith something that may be lacking, or at least minimized, in those who were raised in faith-based households.  And it is for this very reason - that I have both my rational, intellectual upbringing and my strong faith and spiritual understanding and discernment - that I am able not only to articulate my beliefs well, but do so with the same academic and intellectual "knowledge" that the "other side" (the rationalist, empirical and scientific community) has. Peace. Maani, that is an interesting story. You are probably one of the few who came to religion from secular environment. I am only wondering why you did that? Were you thinking that science and rationalism (and atheism) were too difficult for you to follow [yes, everybody knows that math is MUCH more difficult than handwaving], or you just found them wrong (incorrect)? Wrong in what? Of course, the "rational world" is not "all there is". There exists art (literature, philosophy, paiting ...) -- your resort did not have to be religion. And I see one serious problem with your education. Although you were not brainwashed as a child, you were seriously brainwashed during years of "treatment" by priests, mullas, lammas ...  and "other faith-based leaders". You were out of touch with reality for so many years! You probably have no idea about physics, do you? Or you read about its evil teachings in "Watchtower"? Did you have as many conversations with scientists and rational people in general? Now it's too late for you anyway. It will be impossible to undo the years of brainwashing. Practice shows that in many cases even a couple of years of influence of religion is incurable. One thing I learned seeing the generaous religious zeal on this forum: the attachment to prog does not depend on one's philosophy.

A good reason as to why "years of brainwashing is incurable" is because after that time usually the person has felt alot and that feeling has taught him something a science book could never teach or explain.

I highly suggest you try religion somehow or another and atleast try to open you mind atleast once in your life enough to accept somekind of religion if your going to critizise it. Like in prog, don't evaluate and critizise an album without listening to it, and not just once but many times, this is the same with religion. It is very immature and ignorant to dismiss or ridicule religion if you have not even tried it. See what it is like to believe in God for a little while and study it before you say that it is all bad and wrong.

Of course ELP is anti-christian, not satanist(black as such) but lucifierian(false light), much more powerful in deception. ELP preaches blasphemy, occultism, gnositic, druidism and heresy. Young christians should be aware because you flow the leader into the house of fun and you could be in for a big surprise. You should be aware ELP is a band that as well as Yes, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull and the Moody Blues, preaches a philosophy involving the fall of man. They are the preachers of the horned gods religion. At least in the 70's they where the church service for the dark side. We have the internet and other media for that promotion today.

signed veteran cosmic rocker,

Zargus wrote:  thats yust somthing i cant understand. if he realy existed shuldent he do somthing?

It says in the bible, not to get in a biblical war here, that what man did that was meant for evil, God made it happen for good, God did do somehting, it may seem bad to you but to God is was meant for good.

Arteum wrote: DallasBryan wrote: Of course ELP is anti-christian, not satanist(black as such) but lucifierian(false light), much more powerful in deception. ELP preaches blasphemy, occultism, gnositic, druidism and heresy. Young christians should be aware because you flow the leader into the house of fun and you could be in for a big surprise. You should be aware ELP is a band that as well as Yes, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull and the Moody Blues, preaches a philosophy involving the fall of man. They are the preachers of the horned gods religion. At least in the 70's they where the church service for the dark side. We have the internet and other media for that promotion today. signed veteran cosmic rocker,   So, all Christians, don't listen to prog. Better listen to the the Christian Rock matra: "Jesus, you're my Lord I don't need another one, You came to save me, I am meek and humble, I know you love me, etc etc" That's what I always say about it: prog is an atheist's rock music.

Prog is not an atheist's rock music, I listen to it and I'm not atheist one bit so your statement can't be true. Pink Floyd was not a church service for the "darkside" either. I can find mabey one instance where they use the church as a symbol of greed, and hypocracy and that was in Animals. They weren't disagreeing with the bible, Jesus, or teachings of God, they were disagreeing with the greed and hypocracy that heavily influenced the church. Everyone knows that the church for a long time in history and sometimes today are still that very symbol.

Wizard:

Same here!  Hyperspace is one of the 10 best "hard science" books I've ever read.

Prog1611:

Although you did not directly tie the two (which would have made it much clearer), I am glad that you pointed out that when Jesus talked about bringing "a sword," He was not talking about a physical sword, which represents violence and war, but rather a "sword of contention": i.e., that He knew that belief in Him and His message would "divide" families, friends, etc.  It is worth quoting the full passage in this regard:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth.  I did not come to bring peace but a sword.  For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.  And a man's enemies will be those of his own household." (Matt 10-34-36).

Golden Spiral:

While it is true that simply quoting Scripture (even in context) can be "off-putting" for non-believers - and that there are perhaps better ways to go about spreading the Gospel and message of Christ (the best way, of course, being the example of our own lives...) - the Scriptures are our "playbook," and should not be shied away from.

Christianity is "exclusivist."  Indeed, all faiths and beliefs are.  They all have some form of tenets or texts or basic belief systems that one is expected to adhere to in practicing them.  What is different about Christianity is that it is the most "inclusive" exclusivist faith.  It does not require one to wear certain clothes, go to particular buildings to worship or pray, pray a certain number of times a day facing in a particular direction, abstain from certain foods, learn and repeat mantras or other intonements, or any number of other things associated with Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, or any of the other "great" religions.  It has three precepts only.

One, your body is the "temple" of the spirit given to you by God, so take care of it.  Two, Jesus was "God made flesh," and sacrificed Himself for all sin for all time, so honor that sacrifice by believing in it and thanking Him for it.  Three, Jesus was resurrected so that, in believing in His sacrifice and resurrection, your own spirit will find "salvation" (freedom from sin) and eternal life (i.e., the spirit remaining in God's presence after the physical body has died).

The rest of the New Testament is helpful guidelines for living a Christ-like life to the best of one's ability.  However, even if one does not do so, if one has honestly and humbly agreed to the three critical precepts above, one has earned salvation, which can never be taken away.

There is no other faith on earth that is so "inclusively exclusivist."  The changes required to convert to Judaism, Islam, "formal" Buddhism, etc. are far more intensive.

Atom Heart Mother:

Your intentions are good, but to suggest that someone "try religion somehow" or "see what it is like to believe in God for a little while" is ultimately moot.  One cannot simply "try religion" or pretend to believe in God.  Either one does, or one doesn't.  Either one's inner spirit "connects" with God, or it does not.  Either the "light switch" is turned on or it is not.  It is fruitless to hope that non-believers will simply "try" to be believers.  They cannot.

This does not mean they never will.  As noted, I had the light switch turned on for me at 19.  And although it is true that I was already a spiritual "seeker" of sorts, I could no more have believed in God simply because I "wanted" to than I could have jumped off a cliff and defied the laws of gravity simply because I wanted to.  It had to happen.  However, I firmly believe that even the most adamant atheist could have the light switch turned on at some point.

In the meantime, all we can do is try to show, by example - by our words, our actions, our lives, etc. - what it means to be "Christian": not what it has become through its politicization via the mainstream, heirarchical, "organized" Church.  But rather what Jesus actually taught, and how He actually lived.  We will not win hearts and minds (and souls...) by "hoping" that non-believers will "try" religion.  The only way we will win hearts and minds (and souls) is by showing non-believers that Christianity - true, essential, "primitive" Christianity - is not what they believe it to be as a result of its co-opting by religio-political forces and the apostasy they have brought to it.  But rather that, although it is indeed "exclusivist" in some ways, it is not only extremely inclusive, but is based on moral and other precepts that everyone - believers and hard-core atheists alike - would agree are excellent fundamentals for living in a human community.

Peace.

HaroldTheBarrel wrote: I refuse to talk to anyonne who is human. damnit...

* "Why did you do it?" Arteum begged to know- as if the religion was an assassination or a homocide. *

Arteum: You are a phD student in a science (Chemistry was it? Can't remember as I can't look back at your profile in my current state- anyway- that's not the point) and you should be about 27 years old- same age as my older siblings (one's a Doctor, one's a psychologist, one's a phD student with the same Degree as you and my father's a phD student in history. All of these people are Catholics like me. Considering the fact this is a MUSIC website I can add that my mum's a piano teacher...but that's going off topic.) and you believe Religion is the worst thing anyone can take part in. Obviously your've been subject to some hard-out fundamentalist bashing, my friend.

So...Science and Religion can't go together eh? You remind me of my ex-bf. Utterly SHALLOW.

Were you ever a christian/ buddist/ any religion at all Atreum? If not- why on earth do you put your opinion forward, thinking you know what you're talking about? You havn't seen the world at all hun- you live in a hole. And it shows. It shows really badly.

I can't judge you in full, as I don't know you at all, but from the theories your've suggested; I can sum your life up in 3 words:

Boring, Un-enlightened, Depressed.

In other words: Sad, sad, sad.

Face it hun- if you *really* live by the rules your've stated for yourself, your've pretty much hit rock-bottom in this life. Time to pull yourself OUT.

Back to the question: "Are ELP anti-christian?"

My answer: yes, no, maybe....who gives a  and who started this thread anyway????

Arteum wrote: AtomHeartMother wrote: I highly suggest you try religion somehow or another and atleast try to open you mind atleast once in your life enough to accept somekind of religion if your going to critizise it. Like in prog, don't evaluate and critizise an album without listening to it, and not just once but many times, this is the same with religion. It is very immature and ignorant to dismiss or ridicule religion if you have not even tried it. See what it is like to believe in God for a little while and study it before you say that it is all bad and wrong. Like what? Let's suppose that miracles happen. Let's suppose that 2 + 2 is not 4. Let's suppose that there is a clear demarcation line between good and evil. Let's suppose that world is ruled by some supernatural deity with fantastic superpowers who is never going to reveal or manifest itself. Now, where do we go from here? You know, I might as well believe in trolls and elves ...

So typical. You avoided the very clear point I made, that you cannot just citizise religion and all others if you don't know about them. You cannot simply just read about religion and know about it either, you have to EXPERIENCE it. Religion is not somehting that can be felt or explained simply in a book, it must be practiced. I assume you know a good deal about many religions and know that they all revolve around a God that you refuse to believe in. Mabey so, but don't argue with others that have experieced it just because you read about it and decided it was crap. If you tried it and got nothing out of it that is one thing, but to look at it and not try it and still say it is fake and wrong, that is immature and ignorant.