Lazy vs Since I've been loving you

Dellinger wrote: Logan wrote: Dellinger wrote: This is a pair of cool almost blues songs (with and edge) performed by two giants of Hard Rock. Which one do you prefer? Sorry if this isn't prog enough, but once again I couldn't make the poll on the Prog related lounge... I don't know what happened, I remember there used to be no problem making polls there. Making polls was disabled in the Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge long ago.  I moved this to that lounge for you.  I think people can still vote there, but perhaps I should moved it to General Music Discussions (I seem to remember Dean mentioning that he thought that they shouldn't be moved to Prog Related since there's a reason why polls were disabled there in the first place).  I actually think of these as more classic rock songs (which of course they are, but as a designation) than even Prog Related.  Personally, if something is a Prog Related poll (most options being in the Prog Related category), I just do it in General Music Discussions.Anyway, I like both of these tracks about equally, I guess. Oh, but I still don't understand. If this are prog related bands (prog related enough to be included on this site), then why shoould poll about them be made on general music discussion? Prog related lounges are already less viewed than the prog ones, so my post has less oportunity to be seen (even if it may be of interest to some people). But general music has even less viewers and it would be just forgotten. That reminds me, I think the last polls I was able to make on prog related were a bunch of polls of Pink Floyd members vs Beatles members. I though those polls were rather interesting because they weren't just about guitar vs guitar, etc, but also song writing and vocals (matching the ones I thought had a similar role, thus there was a Wright vs Harrison poll too). However, they seemed to have had some attention until they were moved to general music... and I never understood why. Pink Floyd are truly progressive, and The Beatles are Prog related (I had seen polls with less relation to progressive stay on the prog polls lounge).

I didn't say that people should, I said that, personally, I would make such a poll in General Music Discussions.  The reasons being because: a) I don't like having my threads moved, or getting people to feel like they must move them as it might be seen as added bother, and Ive never had a thread moved that I've made there (only had a few polls moved over the years, and have got them moved back, mind you. So, a bit ironic...   B) Unless I'm mistaken, I remember an admin questioning having Prog Related Polls in the Prog Related section, and I think suggesting that they would be better made in General Music Discussions (maybe he would have rather it just be left in Prog Polls).

Perhaps making polls was disabled in the Proto Prog and Prog Reated section for similar reasons that the Proto-Prog and Prog-Related categories are deliberately kept small in terms of additions: they would prefer the focus to be on Prog (and perhaps in the case of polls there was a concern that it takes up bandwidth which can slow down the site that they think, or Max thinks, could be better served in other ways -- but then, one might ask, why allow all sorts of non-prog polls in non-prog forums?, so it doesn't follow well... I'm just thinking out loud).

Like this poll, I have moved an awful lot to this PP/PR Lounge, and I've never minded doing that, and have offered to do that for anyone, but I think those actions have been questioned in the past.  I'm not sure what the policy is on that, or if there is one, which is why I questioned if I was doing the right thing by moving it here.

If the admin have no problem with me moving polls here, then I'm happy to do it.   But moving them here does rather defeat not allowing polls to be made in this forum in the first place, if you see what I mean.

Perhaps because my polls tend to be unpopular no matter where I place them, I have not cared from that perspective where I placed them.  The few that seem to care seem to find them anyway -- well, it is more likely that they will be seen in Prog Polls, but visibility is just not that important to me.  I would rather few notice it than the chance that one notices it who feels compelled to move it to another forum.  Personally, I check the General Music Discussions as much as any forum (and more than most forums  -- I almost never look at Just For Fun for instance).

I've questioned Pink Floyd being called Prog genre, though I think they were progressive and have Prog albums (just that my group tended no to classify them such long ago, and when I thought Prog I thought of symph bands such as Yes, Genesis and ELP -- a narrow view of Prog).  I think the Beatles fit Proto-Prog very well.  The band was progressive in that they were expanding the boundaries of rock and pop music and doing interesting things/ experimenting and bringing in non-rock ideas (like say the influence of musique concrete on the Beatles and how they brought that into a  mainstream music context), but I wouldn't classify the band as Prog proper (more  a band that helped to lay the foundations for the Pog movement as I see it generally).

Oh, and in case you were wondering why I mentioned the progginess of these tracks -- I personally just think that the songs themselves fit better in terms of classification in a General Music Discussion forum than in a Prog Poll, and are not either of the bands most prog-related tunes, so I wouldn't find the tracks themselves out of place in general Music Discussions even if the bands have been classified as Prog Related (a designation that I don't disagree with for the bands, but I like to look at music on a more micro level. I don't think bands are Prog or Prog-related so much as I think that particular music is -- aside from prog-by-style music, though, both bands have been associated with the progressive rock movement by people.

Things aren't always that consistent around here.  I was a big one for moving stuff, to be honest, and I think some others have been rather more relaxed when it comes to it.  It's no big deal.

Unnecessary side-note: Anyway, no matter where I moved it, since the poll title with the moved icon is getting bumped in Prog Polls, it doesn't really matter in terms of exposure ....  That is at least if or until someone decides to remove the show move indicator.


Edited by Logan - January 09 2014 at 19:29

Jimmy Page was very fine at arranging and also composition. Deep Purple ..although being classically trained in areas just didn't seem to have the right chemistry to pull of creative writing. They came close with Machine Head, but Gillian and Glover complained that they couldn't write new ideas. "Since I've Been Loving You" is more in the vain of how great writers like The Beatles would have played a Blues song. It has texture and structure more in the progressive side of things. However...the guitar playing on "Lazy" surpasses the abilities of Jimmy Page on "Since I've Been Loving You". "Lazy" is a very clean precise alternate picking style combined with odd trills played with the left hand. It's a little more adventurous in the area of guitar playing than some of the more choppy lead styles of Jimmy Page. But again...Page's writing surpasses Deep Purple's because of their personal inability to compose a Rock song revolving around 12 different beautiful chord voicings instead of 3 or 4 chords repeating endlessly...which is what they often did. and usually the 5 chord fingering instead of a full melodic sounding chord. Page would stretch his left hand across many frets while sounding out open strings. Blackmore did not.

Edited by TODDLER - January 10 2014 at 10:42

Logan wrote: Dellinger wrote: Logan wrote: Dellinger wrote: This is a pair of cool almost blues songs (with and edge) performed by two giants of Hard Rock. Which one do you prefer? Sorry if this isn't prog enough, but once again I couldn't make the poll on the Prog related lounge... I don't know what happened, I remember there used to be no problem making polls there. Making polls was disabled in the Proto-Prog and Prog-Related Lounge long ago. I moved this to that lounge for you. I think people can still vote there, but perhaps I should moved it to General Music Discussions (I seem to remember Dean mentioning that he thought that they shouldn't be moved to Prog Related since there's a reason why polls were disabled there in the first place). I actually think of these as more classic rock songs (which of course they are, but as a designation) than even Prog Related. Personally, if something is a Prog Related poll (most options being in the Prog Related category), I just do it in General Music Discussions.Anyway, I like both of these tracks about equally, I guess. Oh, but I still don't understand. If this are prog related bands (prog related enough to be included on this site), then why shoould poll about them be made on general music discussion? Prog related lounges are already less viewed than the prog ones, so my post has less oportunity to be seen (even if it may be of interest to some people). But general music has even less viewers and it would be just forgotten. That reminds me, I think the last polls I was able to make on prog related were a bunch of polls of Pink Floyd members vs Beatles members. I though those polls were rather interesting because they weren't just about guitar vs guitar, etc, but also song writing and vocals (matching the ones I thought had a similar role, thus there was a Wright vs Harrison poll too). However, they seemed to have had some attention until they were moved to general music... and I never understood why. Pink Floyd are truly progressive, and The Beatles are Prog related (I had seen polls with less relation to progressive stay on the prog polls lounge). I didn't say that people should, I said that, personally, I would make such a poll in General Music Discussions. The reasons being because: a) I don't like having my threads moved, or getting people to feel like they must move them as it might be seen as added bother, and Ive never had a thread moved that I've made there (only had a few polls moved over the years, and have got them moved back, mind you. So, a bit ironic...    B) Unless I'm mistaken, I remember an admin questioning having Prog Related Polls in the Prog Related section, and I think suggesting that they would be better made in General Music Discussions (maybe he would have rather it just be left in Prog Polls).Perhaps making polls was disabled in the Proto Prog and Prog Reated section for similar reasons that the Proto-Prog and Prog-Related categories are deliberately kept small in terms of additions: they would prefer the focus to be on Prog (and perhaps in the case of polls there was a concern that it takes up bandwidth which can slow down the site that they think, or Max thinks, could be better served in other ways -- but then, one might ask, why allow all sorts of non-prog polls in non-prog forums?, so it doesn't follow well... I'm just thinking out loud).Like this poll, I have moved an awful lot to this PP/PR Lounge, and I've never minded doing that, and have offered to do that for anyone, but I think those actions have been questioned in the past. I'm not sure what the policy is on that, or if there is one, which is why I questioned if I was doing the right thing by moving it here.If the admin have no problem with me moving polls here, then I'm happy to do it. But moving them here does rather defeat not allowing polls to be made in this forum in the first place, if you see what I mean.Perhaps because my polls tend to be unpopular no matter where I place them, I have not cared from that perspective where I placed them. The few that seem to care seem to find them anyway -- well, it is more likely that they will be seen in Prog Polls, but visibility is just not that important to me. I would rather few notice it than the chance that one notices it who feels compelled to move it to another forum. Personally, I check the General Music Discussions as much as any forum (and more than most forums -- I almost never look at Just For Fun for instance).I've questioned Pink Floyd being called Prog genre, though I think they were progressive and have Prog albums (just that my group tended no to classify them such long ago, and when I thought Prog I thought of symph bands such as Yes, Genesis and ELP -- a narrow view of Prog). I think the Beatles fit Proto-Prog very well. The band was progressive in that they were expanding the boundaries of rock and pop music and doing interesting things/ experimenting and bringing in non-rock ideas (like say the influence of musique concrete on the Beatles and how they brought that into a mainstream music context), but I wouldn't classify the band as Prog proper (more a band that helped to lay the foundations for the Pog movement as I see it generally).Oh, and in case you were wondering why I mentioned the progginess of these tracks -- I personally just think that the songs themselves fit better in terms of classification in a General Music Discussion forum than in a Prog Poll, and are not either of the bands most prog-related tunes, so I wouldn't find the tracks themselves out of place in general Music Discussions even if the bands have been classified as Prog Related (a designation that I don't disagree with for the bands, but I like to look at music on a more micro level. I don't think bands are Prog or Prog-related so much as I think that particular music is -- aside from prog-by-style music, though, both bands have been associated with the progressive rock movement by people.Things aren't always that consistent around here. I was a big one for moving stuff, to be honest, and I think some others have been rather more relaxed when it comes to it. It's no big deal.Unnecessary side-note: Anyway, no matter where I moved it, since the poll title with the moved icon is getting bumped in Prog Polls, it doesn't really matter in terms of exposure .... That is at least if or until someone decides to remove the show move indicator.

So, in the end, what should I do when I want to make a poll I consider Prog related? Well, strictly I understand I should do it on General Music. But in the end, I still don't agree with the arguments about not wanting to distract the attention from pure prog conversations. In that case, there shouldn't even be the non prog lounges... if they are available, then I consider the final choice about what the users of the site want to visit should be ours, and not be cheated puting things in the wrong places so we won't use them. Besides, the reason I don't visit General Music (and even Prog Related) parts of the forum isn't so much because I'm not interested in them, but more because I can go in several times and see no movement in them. So I mainly enter Prog related from time to time to see if there's something interesting or when I have an idea of something I want to post, and then follow it for a while until it cools down. However, in the end, I'm tempted to keep on posting prog related polls on the prog polls forum (not that I make lot's of polls very often, though)... still, I don't want to annoy people about that.

Oh yeah, and one last thing, I do kind of think this two songs are at least prog related too. Of course, they are more blues, and perhaps hard rock, than prog, but their length and amount of instrumental time makes them feel like they have at least some prog elements... actually, at some point someone called "Since I've been Loving You" a Blues Prog song, or something like that, and I kind of agree.

thwok wrote: However, Dellinger's post is valuable because I've always stayed away from listening to Deep Purple.  They've always struck me as a less creative version of Uriah Heep, and I don't like primarily keyboard-driven rock.

I always thought it was the other way around.

And keyboard driven??

Zep here too, I love that song. 

We just watched the '84 Purple dvd.  And while the band were in fine form, we both felt very strongly their material isn't even close to the level of Zeppelin generally.  When I told the wife that many people consider Blackmore superior to Page, she just laughed.  Basically telling me, that just you guys who worry about technical precision and fireworks....to her the emotion and melody of Page's leads are something Blackmore doesn't have. 

Overstatement perhaps but I feel much the same.  DP are decent but no LZ.  Not at the kit, not at bass and not at guitar.  DP has the organ which is a tick in their favor.  Voice is a draw. 

Blackmore had stated long ago that he wished Deep Purple could write songs as good as Uriah Heep. He also liked Jethro Tull and attended their shows whenever possible. He would sit in the front row trying to be discreet and Ian Anderson would leap off the stage into Blackmore's lap just to bust his stones.....I believe Blackmore's attraction to both bands was of course a personal liking...however...I believe that Blackmore also wished that his band, Deep Purple, could turn out songs just as good and apart from Machine Head and some tracks on In Rock, that never materialized in the real world. I remember when he was asked why he was leaving the band and he replied ...."What's the point?" Led Zeppelin sold more than us"....which makes me laugh due to the fact that it's an excuse you might hear from a ten year old child...but again..there is undertone to all of his statements in the 70's indicating that he was unhappy about the songwriting in Deep Purple.

I've heard Blackmore bashing Deep Purple for a long time, does it mean he's right? who cares?
Honestly I like Uriah Heep too but they are not in the same league, but that's only my opinion.

About the bands Zep and DP, I do like better Led Zeppelin, specially they have more songs that I really love a lot... but then again, I have known them for much longer and have all their studio albums, while I have just started getting into Deep Purple. As guitar players, I suppose I like Page a bit better than Blackmore... I guess he has kind of a wider pallette of sounds. Still, if I include what I know from Rainbow together with DP, I guess the amount of songs I love gets a bit more even.

Finnforest wrote: Zep here too, I love that song.  We just watched the '84 Purple dvd.  And while the band were in fine form, we both felt very strongly their material isn't even close to the level of Zeppelin generally.  When I told the wife that many people consider Blackmore superior to Page, she just laughed.  Basically telling me, that just you guys who worry about technical precision and fireworks....to her the emotion and melody of Page's leads are something Blackmore doesn't have.    I agree with the statement that some people worry too much about precision, but as a active guitarist ...I must render that when playing Page's solos..frustration comes to mind. Obviously Page brings out a lot of emotional feelings in people with his soloing, but sometimes as a guitarist you're being asked to emulate his reflections which is playing incorrectly regarding the sloppy note passages. I like his solos...but the majority of the world is not willing to accept that he is playing poorly according to a professional point of reference from a musician...which...is disrespectful and sometimes disregarded in an ignorant way. It's a very delicate situation because his sloppiness is appealing yet....difficult to not think of as pathetic in some cases when you are experienced on guitar. On "Heartbreaker" he plays many notes which are choppy sounding along with open strings ringing out like a drone tone which is precisely what a good teacher would stop you from doing. In that sense...it is ironic..but I do get it! Page was Jeff Beck's guitar instructor and I respect Page for what he is playing more than how he sounds when he plays it.   This is insight on the beef between Page and thousands of professional guitarists over the last 40 years. I'm sorry to go on like this..but for decades..there has been a whole world of great guitarists who have respect for Page, but are baffled by his lack of effort/determination in playing clean ..while another entire world of people who may not be musicians love Page for what he is and ask the same question over and over to professional players...."How on earth can you say that Page is sloppy?"  Don't get me wrong....I especially love Page on The Yardbirds live at Anderson Theatre. It's a complicated situation where musicians who pull off his solos in a club. get a supportive response, must keep their opinons quiet when asked what they think of him.  Overstatement perhaps but I feel much the same.  DP are decent but no LZ.  Not at the kit, not at bass and not at guitar.  DP has the organ which is a tick in their favor.  Voice is a draw.

Finnforest wrote: ^ As well he should be...I almost cringe now when I hear Smoke on the Water....that was the big finale of the DVD i mention below, and it's just so unremarkable.