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Topic ClosedWhy does prog attrack more males, not females?

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TheGazzardian View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:15
Originally posted by HTCF HTCF wrote:


Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

I think it has a lot to do with relating to things and the fact that women are generally more emotional/romantic then men. 



This, to me, would suggest that women are more likely to enjoy the music of, say, Van der Graaf Generator, than men are.  That is evidently not the case

Even if that's true (I think that the rest of my post kind of pointed in the opposite direction Smile), it still relies on somebody getting exposed to Van Der Graaf Generator before they can like it. So let's say I'm a 16 year old girl in my impressionable age, still feeling more influenced by what's on the radio, love songs, etc. What is going to make me aware of Van Der Graaf Generator in the first place? You have to keep in mind that, other than the radio singles, a lot of prog is only heard by those who seek it out. 

Now let's take that supposition a step forward and say that said 16 year old girl interrupts her Bryan Adams or Spice Girls or whatever the young'ns (Tongue) are listening to today and listens to Van Der Graaf Generator. What are they going to think of those long songs, dark lyrics in Peter Hammill's unique voice? What will they think of the manic drumming and the dual saxophone attack? It will be beyond their scope of expectation and they likely won't know what to make of it. Most people these days judge music on the first listen, and VDGG requires more than just one listen to properly penetrate. So without an immediately obvious reason to love the music, and a lot of confusing new aspects, what will this young girl think?

For sure, she might love it. But I think that in most cases, it will be too far beyond her current scope of knowledge for her to appreciate, unless someone is showing it to her, adding their own enthusiasm to build up hers, etc...but I don't think it's likely she's going to discover & love it herself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:17
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

I grew up with prog because my brother, who is ten years older than I am, listened to all that strange stuff in the 70s, and I was attracted to those strange noises coming out of his room, so I wound up being around when he and his friends gathered around by candlelight under billows of thick sweet smoke, with me, the little sister of my brother, being a kind of mascot. So sorry, I am an exception to the rule.


Don't say sorry.  That is so cool!  You are independent.  The same as me.  You liked what you heard, and that was enough, no different than me.  We proggers are in the minority for sure.

I am surrounded by people, especially  at work, (men and women BTW) who do not appreciate what I listen to, at all.  That's why I'm here.  I run into even fewer women who are into it.

1.  Do any of your female friends like prog also?

2.  Who is your favorite group?

3.  What is it about prog in relation to gender that makes you an exception to the rule (from a woman's perspective)?  In other words, what connected with you that doesn't connect with other women?  There has got to be more to it than "my brother listened to it."

Why, why, why?




Edited by Ethos - April 22 2010 at 23:41
"As sure as Eggs is Eggs."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:17
Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

Originally posted by HTCF HTCF wrote:


Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

I think it has a lot to do with relating to things and the fact that women are generally more emotional/romantic then men. 



This, to me, would suggest that women are more likely to enjoy the music of, say, Van der Graaf Generator, than men are.  That is evidently not the case

Even if that's true (I think that the rest of my post kind of pointed in the opposite direction Smile), it still relies on somebody getting exposed to Van Der Graaf Generator before they can like it. So let's say I'm a 16 year old girl in my impressionable age, still feeling more influenced by what's on the radio, love songs, etc. What is going to make me aware of Van Der Graaf Generator in the first place? You have to keep in mind that, other than the radio singles, a lot of prog is only heard by those who seek it out. 


:) yeah that's what I said earlier

Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:


Now let's take that supposition a step forward and say that said 16 year old girl interrupts her Bryan Adams or Spice Girls or whatever the young'ns (Tongue) are listening to today and listens to Van Der Graaf Generator. What are they going to think of those long songs, dark lyrics in Peter Hammill's unique voice? What will they think of the manic drumming and the dual saxophone attack? It will be beyond their scope of expectation and they likely won't know what to make of it. Most people these days judge music on the first listen, and VDGG requires more than just one listen to properly penetrate. So without an immediately obvious reason to love the music, and a lot of confusing new aspects, what will this young girl think?

For sure, she might love it. But I think that in most cases, it will be too far beyond her current scope of knowledge for her to appreciate, unless someone is showing it to her, adding their own enthusiasm to build up hers, etc...but I don't think it's likely she's going to discover & love it herself.


True, but I was thinking more in terms of women who have matured beyond solely basing their opinions on first impressions
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:18
Originally posted by HTCF HTCF wrote:

 
Case in point:  every female teacher I've ever had (and most non-teaching women I've met) says "tempature," which isn't a word.  They also say things like i-urn (instead of iron).
People don't pronounce things the same way you do!? CLEARLY THEY ARE RETARDED!
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Everyone knows that women have terrible taste in music. Diana Krall? Avril Lavigne? Tori Amos? Lily Allen? The list goes on and on. Honestly, you could say the same thing about almost any genre of music that is considered good. I don't have data on thisother than my own experience,
This is incredibly stupid. Carla Kihlstedt? Okkyung Lee? Satoko Fujii? Sylvie Courviousier? Ikue Mori? Marnie Stern? P-we? Carla Bley? Laurie Anderson? Evelyn Glennie? Susie Ibarra? Dagmar Krause? Leslie Flannigan? That annoying woman from Thinking Plague? That's just off the top of my head, and except for the last two they're all semi-famous in their respective fields. I'm sure I could find more if I looked.

Maybe Transatlantic can only drawn the aging men, but the concerts at The Stone that I went to and the Evan Parker and Peter Brotzmann gigs had fairly mixed audiences. And a lot of them were much older than you would expect.
Quote but I would bet that few women listen to Jazz or Classical music compared to men. On the other hand, I bet fewer women listen to Rap as well, so they score a point there.
This is completely wrong! You're making wild assumptions based on nothing! Look at how many women there are here! If we're going to base things off stereotypes, I would say that women are more likely than men to like classical music because it is relaxing and men want RAGE AGGRESSION.

I know it's a meme, and I know it's said every time we do this, but THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!


Edited by Henry Plainview - April 22 2010 at 23:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:24
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Everyone knows that women have terrible taste in music. Diana Krall? Avril Lavigne? Tori Amos? Lily Allen? The list goes on and on. Honestly, you could say the same thing about almost any genre of music that is considered good. I don't have data on thisother than my own experience,
This is incredibly stupid. Carla Kihlstedt? Okkyung Lee? Satoko Fujii? Sylvie Courviousier? Ikue Mori? Marnie Stern? P-we? Carla Bley? Laurie Anderson? Evelyn Glennie? Susie Ibarra? Dagmar Krause? Leslie Flannigan? That annoying woman from Thinking Plague? That's just off the top of my head, and except for the last two they're all semi-famous in their respective fields. I'm sure I could find more if I looked.

Maybe Transatlantic can only drawn the aging men, but the concerts at The Stone that I went to and the Evan Parker and Peter Brotzmann gigs had fairly mixed audiences. And a lot of them were much older than you would expect.
Quote but I would bet that few women listen to Jazz or Classical music compared to men. On the other hand, I bet fewer women listen to Rap as well, so they score a point there.
This is completely wrong! You're making wild assumptions based on nothing! Look at how many women there are here! If we're going to base things off stereotypes, I would say that women are more likely than men to like classical music because it is relaxing and men want RAGE AGGRESSION.

I know it's a meme, and I know it's said every time we do this, but THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS!


I don't know any women who listen to Dagmar Krause or any other of the women you mentioned. I wasn't referring to female musicians, I was talking about the musical taste of the vast Majority of women.

I don't dispute that a lot of women like classical music. What I said was that fewer women than men like it. I might be wrong, and as I said, I have no data other than experience, but I used to work in a record store, and the population of the Classical/Jazz department was always far more male than female. Your link listed orchestra players, not the distribution of women in the audience. There exists a difference.


Edited by thellama73 - April 22 2010 at 23:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:26
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

 I would say that women are more likely than men to like classical music because it is relaxing and men want RAGE AGGRESSION.

RAWR

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Originally posted by HTCF HTCF wrote:

I was thinking more in terms of women who have matured beyond solely basing their opinions on first impressions

It's the music lovers we gotta target with our prog-spreading ways =D
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:27
Prog fans are very eager to hop aboard the serious business train.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:32
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


I don't dispute that a lot of women like classical music. What I said was that fewer women than men like it. I might be wrong, and as I said, I have no data other than experience, but I used to work in a record store, and the population of the Classical/Jazz department was always far more male than female. Your link listed orchestra players, not the distribution of women in the audience. There exists a difference.
Women go to concerts, they don't buy albums.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:36
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


I don't dispute that a lot of women like classical music. What I said was that fewer women than men like it. I might be wrong, and as I said, I have no data other than experience, but I used to work in a record store, and the population of the Classical/Jazz department was always far more male than female. Your link listed orchestra players, not the distribution of women in the audience. There exists a difference.
Women go to concerts, they don't buy albums.


Why not?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:41
Originally posted by Ethos Ethos wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

I grew up with prog because my brother, who is ten years older than I am, listened to all that strange stuff in the 70s, and I was attracted to those strange noises coming out of his room, so I wound up being around when he and his friends gathered around by candlelight under billows of thick sweet smoke, with me, the little sister of my brother, being a kind of mascot. So sorry, I am an exception to the rule.


Don't say sorry.  That is so cool!  You are independent.  The same as me.  You liked what you heard, and that was enough, no different than me.  We proggers are in the minority for sure.

I am surrounded by people, especially  at work,  who do not appreciate what I listen to, at all.  That's why I'm here.

Do any of your female friends like prog also?

Who is your favorite group?

Well, my wife does (I am a lesbian), and she grew up with it too. She is American by birth, and her parents were hippies. She was not even a year old when she attended Woodstock.

I don't really have a favourite band, but VdGG, Hawkwind, Magma, Embryo, King Crimson, Gong, Amon Düül 2, Guru Guru or Can are some of my favourite artists. I especially like early Krautrock or space rock; that's where the strangest sounds came from.when I was a kid.


Edited by BaldFriede - April 22 2010 at 23:49


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:46
I don't know. While Googling for a poll, I found that a classical label enclosed a survey in their albums, and out of the first 1000 responses, 997 were male. Clearly this does not reflect the actual demographics of classical fans.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:47
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Ethos Ethos wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

I grew up with prog because my brother, who is ten years older than I am, listened to all that strange stuff in the 70s, and I was attracted to those strange noises coming out of his room, so I wound up being around when he and his friends gathered around by candlelight under billows of thick sweet smoke, with me, the little sister of my brother, being a kind of mascot. So sorry, I am an exception to the rule.


Don't say sorry.  That is so cool!  You are independent.  The same as me.  You liked what you heard, and that was enough, no different than me.  We proggers are in the minority for sure.

I am surrounded by people, especially  at work,  who do not appreciate what I listen to, at all.  That's why I'm here.

Do any of your female friends like prog also?

Who is your favorite group?

Well, my wife does (I am a lesbian), and she grew up with it too. She is American by birth, and her parents were hippies. She was not even a year old when she attended Woodstock.


Favorite group?
"As sure as Eggs is Eggs."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:48
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

I don't know. While Googling for a poll, I found that a classical label enclosed a survey in their albums, and out of the first 1000 responses, 997 were male. Clearly this does not reflect the actual demographics of classical fans.


Could also just be that more men fill out surveys xD
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:52
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

I don't know. While Googling for a poll, I found that a classical label enclosed a survey in their albums, and out of the first 1000 responses, 997 were male. Clearly this does not reflect the actual demographics of classical fans.


I suspect (and again I have no proof besides experience) that women go to the orchestra mainly as a social event, rather than because they love the music. Have you ever seen a woman there by herself? I haven't. Obviously this doesn't apply to all women, but I bet it's statistically significant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:53
maybe men are just more obsessive. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:54
^ I definitely believe that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:01
I think most people don't go to a concert by themselves.
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

maybe men are just more obsessive. 
That's true to a certain extent. The vast majority of audiophiles are men, and it doesn't get much more obsessive than that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:38
Originally posted by Ethos Ethos wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Ethos Ethos wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

I grew up with prog because my brother, who is ten years older than I am, listened to all that strange stuff in the 70s, and I was attracted to those strange noises coming out of his room, so I wound up being around when he and his friends gathered around by candlelight under billows of thick sweet smoke, with me, the little sister of my brother, being a kind of mascot. So sorry, I am an exception to the rule.


Don't say sorry.  That is so cool!  You are independent.  The same as me.  You liked what you heard, and that was enough, no different than me.  We proggers are in the minority for sure.

I am surrounded by people, especially  at work,  who do not appreciate what I listen to, at all.  That's why I'm here.

Do any of your female friends like prog also?

Who is your favorite group?

Well, my wife does (I am a lesbian), and she grew up with it too. She is American by birth, and her parents were hippies. She was not even a year old when she attended Woodstock.


Favorite group?

I don't have "the" favourite band, but VdGG, Gong, Magma, Can, Embryo, Amon Düül 2, Guru Guru, King Crimson or Hawkwind are sme of my favourite artists. I generally love Krautrock and Space Rock; that's where the strangest sounds came from when I was a kid.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:53
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Ethos Ethos wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Ethos Ethos wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

I grew up with prog because my brother, who is ten years older than I am, listened to all that strange stuff in the 70s, and I was attracted to those strange noises coming out of his room, so I wound up being around when he and his friends gathered around by candlelight under billows of thick sweet smoke, with me, the little sister of my brother, being a kind of mascot. So sorry, I am an exception to the rule.


Don't say sorry.  That is so cool!  You are independent.  The same as me.  You liked what you heard, and that was enough, no different than me.  We proggers are in the minority for sure.

I am surrounded by people, especially  at work,  who do not appreciate what I listen to, at all.  That's why I'm here.

Do any of your female friends like prog also?

Who is your favorite group?

Well, my wife does (I am a lesbian), and she grew up with it too. She is American by birth, and her parents were hippies. She was not even a year old when she attended Woodstock.


Favorite group?

I don't have "the" favourite band, but VdGG, Gong, Magma, Can, Embryo, Amon Düül 2, Guru Guru, King Crimson or Hawkwind are sme of my favourite artists. I generally love Krautrock and Space Rock; that's where the strangest sounds came from when I was a kid.


Good music taste.  I lean more towards the symphonic side rather than space rock.

Back to the question at hand:

What is it about prog in relation to gender that makes you an exception to the rule (from a woman's perspective)?  In other words, what connected with you that doesn't connect with many other women?  There has got to be more to it than "my brother listened to it."
"As sure as Eggs is Eggs."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2010 at 03:57
I think everyone is missing one of the most important reasons why Men like prog more than Women: vocals. Women seem to put much more importance on vocals than Men do. Some progressive rock songs have long instrumental sections, and that can turn women off... because they crave to hear the human voice sing. Women want songs with vocals and minimal instrumental breaks. 
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