Why does prog attrack more males, not females?
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Topic: Why does prog attrack more males, not females?
Posted By: Ethos
Subject: Why does prog attrack more males, not females?
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:15
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I'm serious! My son and I just got back from San Francisco having just seen Transatlantic. The crowd was mainly middle aged men (like myself, I might add). Please spare the SF jokes, I'm from Seattle. Okay, please spare the Seattle jokes... No seriously, ever since I started going to prog concerts back in the old Genesis days, It seems that prog appeals to males more than females. Don't flame me, just an observation. I'm sure many of you have noticed this also. I AM NOT SAYING THAT WOMEN DO NOT LIKE PROGRESSIVE ROCK! Just an ongoing observation. What is it about the music we listen to that does not appeal to women in general. BTW, there were women in the audience, but very few and they seemed to be either spouses or girlfriends tagging along. This is a question more puzzling to me than the origins of the universe. Why, why, why? I would love to hear females respond BTW, if this is an old topic, sorry, I'm a newbie! ------------- "As sure as Eggs is Eggs." |
Replies:
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:18
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Because men are smart? I mean, I'm not sexist in the slightest bit |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:28
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Everyone knows that women have terrible taste in music. Diana Krall? Avril Lavigne? Tori Amos? Lily Allen? The list goes on and on. Honestly, you could say the same thing about almost any genre of music that is considered good. I don't have data on thisother than my own experience, but I would bet that few women listen to Jazz or Classical music compared to men. On the other hand, I bet fewer women listen to Rap as well, so they score a point there. Now to any women who are offended, don't be. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Musical taste is just not one of your strengths. ------------- 
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:28
Maybe you're not but you either 1) don't know that smartness has different qualifications, and that men do better than women in some of them (abstract concepts, spatial-relationships) and women better in others (language use, deciphering communication, especially nonverbal) or 2) Are not very good at delivering jokes. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
HTCF wrote:Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:33
I disagree, I've seen absolutely zero evidence to show that women are better than men at language use. Case in point: every female teacher I've ever had (and most non-teaching women I've met) says "tempature," which isn't a word. They also say things like i-urn (instead of iron). Even the "Advanced Placement" English teachers I know have horrible grammar. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:33
At first I thought you meant that women were not very good at delivering jokes, which is true, but not what you meant.  Seriously though, everything you said was right. -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:33
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I hypothesize women are socialized to see music as a supplement to social events or statuses more than men. For some reason few women who are introverted go for prog when indie is right around the corner. My honest estimation is that they desire to be in social cliques more than men need to, and so they choose something like indie to express their independence or "uniqueness" while also wanting to be recognized for the uniqueness more than men do. That's as far as socialization goes in my mind now. Or maybe guys just think in polyrhythms and odd times more than women. Whatever. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:39
| Or maybe they just listen to whatever they hear, rather than actively seeking out specific music, and as prog is not generally played on the radio or in the shopping malls most women simply are not aware that there is anything special about it. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:40
Knowing where to place commas and spelling is not the same thing as interpersonal language usage. It's pretty irrelevant. Things like reading facial expressions, deciphering verbal and visual cues in other people, generally being focused on relationship dynamics and stuff life that all has to do with language. And prevailing opinion has always told us women are more in tune with this stuff than men, and it turns out generally it's right. Men become engineers while women become PR reps, caregivers, social workers and so on. It's a mistake to assume that because someone can crunch numbers that they're "smarter" than someone who can't, or maybe even smart at all. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:42
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I've often wondered why you don't see more women who are virtuoso rock musicians. YOu se a lot of them in classical music, but not in rock. Once I saw a study that claimed that men tend to either be really successful or miserable failures, whereas women are mostly moderately successful across the board. I'm sure some will insist that it's social pressure, but I am convinced that there's something inside men's heads that makes us a little more obsessive and crazy than women. You see lots of guys who are willing to spend their entire lives bent over a microscope or practicing the guitar or scribbling equation, but comparatively few women. I am not sure what this has to do with Prog, but I think there's a connection. -------------
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:43
That all falls under "interpreting discussion" and NOT under "language use" Just because someone can read your facial expressions doesn't mean they can effective convey a point, or even manage not to sound like a simpleton |
Posted By: Dominic
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:43
I believe that it's a cultural issue. All of you fellas here that have a little daughter at home, raise her right. (no, i don't mean lock her in a closet with all your prog vinyls)
 I like that one ------------- 
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:44
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I think it has a lot to do with relating to things and the fact that women are generally more emotional/romantic then men. So let's look at it from the first point of view. Growing up, boys tend to relate better to other boys and girls tend to relate more to other girls. Let's look at some of the famous female musicians out there: Shania Twain, Avril Lavigne, Lily Allen, etc. Then let's look at some of the famous male musicians out there: Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison. Very different music. Of course, this is a generalisation, and there are a high number of females involved in harder/rocking music, and a high number of males involved in ballads/love songs. But the well-known-ness and overall quantity skews across the genders, so that harder stuff is seen more as music for guys, and emotional music and love songs are seen more as music for girls. Furthermore, there is a higher amount of non-female instrumentalists in popular media. Despite the fact that we act like we aren't, human beings are basically copycats. We see a guy playing drums, and a guy thinks, "That would be cool!". There aren't so many girls playing drums; so a lot of girls don't relate and don't see the connection. Why is this related? Well, a lot of prog rock is music that has a strong appeal to musicians, who beyond enjoying melody/ etc. can also appreciate the technicality of what it is that the bands are playing. That's just a stab in the dark of part of the reason. I'm sure there's more but that's enough analytical thinking for one night.
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Posted By: Dominic
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:51
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^ That's pretty much were i'm coming from with my reasoning
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:52
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I grew up with prog because my brother, who is ten years older than I am, listened to all that strange stuff in the 70s, and I was attracted to those strange noises coming out of his room, so I wound up being around when he and his friends gathered around by candlelight under billows of thick sweet smoke, with me, the little sister of my brother, being a kind of mascot. So sorry, I am an exception to the rule. -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 22:57
OK, I'll backpedal and say I don't know specifically if "language use" is a more women-centric thing, but I'd wager my next paycheck that studies generally show women, given similar backgrounds and education as men, take greater care to spell better. But this doesn't even matter. Everyone f**ks up spelling from time to time and if no one ever does, chances are he's a horribly boring person. Grammar is beside the point in being smart, although it's a nice smoke screen for impressing people. Point is, we tend to think of smarts in terms of mathematical ability or the degree to which someone can spout of BS about literary analysis with a straight face. This isn't the whole picture. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Dominic
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:03
And a percussionist/drummer to boot -------------
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:03
I don't know where all this discussion on spelling even came from, I was talking about pronunciation earlier. With spellcheck-everything nobody needs to know how to spell anymore
This, to me, would suggest that women are more likely to enjoy the music of, say, Van der Graaf Generator, than men are. That is evidently not the case |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:08
I think he means that women understand things like the tone of your voice and non-verbal cues better than men, what you are actually saying is only a small part of what makes up a conversation. |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:12
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Yeah, you're right, I was solely referring to sounding intelligent as opposed to being intelligent. |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:15
Even if that's true (I think that the rest of my post kind of pointed in the opposite direction  ), it still relies on somebody getting exposed to Van Der Graaf Generator before they can like it. So let's say I'm a 16 year old girl in my impressionable age, still feeling more influenced by what's on the radio, love songs, etc. What is going to make me aware of Van Der Graaf Generator in the first place? You have to keep in mind that, other than the radio singles, a lot of prog is only heard by those who seek it out. Now let's take that supposition a step forward and say that said 16 year old girl interrupts her Bryan Adams or Spice Girls or whatever the young'ns (  ) are listening to today and listens to Van Der Graaf Generator. What are they going to think of those long songs, dark lyrics in Peter Hammill's unique voice? What will they think of the manic drumming and the dual saxophone attack? It will be beyond their scope of expectation and they likely won't know what to make of it. Most people these days judge music on the first listen, and VDGG requires more than just one listen to properly penetrate. So without an immediately obvious reason to love the music, and a lot of confusing new aspects, what will this young girl think?For sure, she might love it. But I think that in most cases, it will be too far beyond her current scope of knowledge for her to appreciate, unless someone is showing it to her, adding their own enthusiasm to build up hers, etc...but I don't think it's likely she's going to discover & love it herself.
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Posted By: Ethos
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:17
Don't say sorry. That is so cool! You are independent. The same as me. You liked what you heard, and that was enough, no different than me. We proggers are in the minority for sure. I am surrounded by people, especially at work, (men and women BTW) who do not appreciate what I listen to, at all. That's why I'm here. I run into even fewer women who are into it. 1. Do any of your female friends like prog also? 2. Who is your favorite group? 3. What is it about prog in relation to gender that makes you an exception to the rule (from a woman's perspective)? In other words, what connected with you that doesn't connect with other women? There has got to be more to it than "my brother listened to it." Why, why, why? ------------- "As sure as Eggs is Eggs." |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:17
:) yeah that's what I said earlier
True, but I was thinking more in terms of women who have matured beyond solely basing their opinions on first impressions |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:18
People don't pronounce things the same way you do!? CLEARLY THEY ARE RETARDED!
This is incredibly stupid. Carla Kihlstedt? Okkyung Lee? Satoko Fujii? Sylvie Courviousier? Ikue Mori? Marnie Stern? P-we? Carla Bley? Laurie Anderson? Evelyn Glennie? Susie Ibarra? Dagmar Krause? Leslie Flannigan? That annoying woman from Thinking Plague? That's just off the top of my head, and except for the last two they're all semi-famous in their respective fields. I'm sure I could find more if I looked. Maybe Transatlantic can only drawn the aging men, but the concerts at The Stone that I went to and the Evan Parker and Peter Brotzmann gigs had fairly mixed audiences. And a lot of them were much older than you would expect.
This is completely wrong! You're making wild assumptions based on nothing! http://nyphil.org/meet/orchestra/index.cfm?page=home - Look at how many women there are here! If we're going to base things off stereotypes, I would say that women are more likely than men to like classical music because it is relaxing and men want RAGE AGGRESSION. I know it's a meme, and I know it's said every time we do this, but THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS! ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:24
I don't know any women who listen to Dagmar Krause or any other of the women you mentioned. I wasn't referring to female musicians, I was talking about the musical taste of the vast Majority of women. I don't dispute that a lot of women like classical music. What I said was that fewer women than men like it. I might be wrong, and as I said, I have no data other than experience, but I used to work in a record store, and the population of the Classical/Jazz department was always far more male than female. Your link listed orchestra players, not the distribution of women in the audience. There exists a difference. -------------
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:26
RAWR < ="utf-8">
It's the music lovers we gotta target with our prog-spreading ways =D |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:27
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Prog fans are very eager to hop aboard the serious business train.
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:32
Women go to concerts, they don't buy albums. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:36
Why not? -------------
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Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:41
Well, my wife does (I am a lesbian), and she grew up with it too. She is American by birth, and her parents were hippies. She was not even a year old when she attended Woodstock. I don't really have a favourite band, but VdGG, Hawkwind, Magma, Embryo, King Crimson, Gong, Amon Düül 2, Guru Guru or Can are some of my favourite artists. I especially like early Krautrock or space rock; that's where the strangest sounds came from.when I was a kid. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:46
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I don't know. While Googling for a poll, I found that a classical label enclosed a survey in their albums, and out of the first 1000 responses, 997 were male. Clearly this does not reflect the actual demographics of classical fans. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Ethos
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:47
Favorite group? ------------- "As sure as Eggs is Eggs." |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:48
Could also just be that more men fill out surveys xD |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:52
I suspect (and again I have no proof besides experience) that women go to the orchestra mainly as a social event, rather than because they love the music. Have you ever seen a woman there by herself? I haven't. Obviously this doesn't apply to all women, but I bet it's statistically significant. -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:53
| maybe men are just more obsessive. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 22 2010 at 23:54
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^ I definitely believe that.
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:01
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I think most people don't go to a concert by themselves.
That's true to a certain extent. The vast majority of audiophiles are men, and it doesn't get much more obsessive than that. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:38
I don't have "the" favourite band, but VdGG, Gong, Magma, Can, Embryo, Amon Düül 2, Guru Guru, King Crimson or Hawkwind are sme of my favourite artists. I generally love Krautrock and Space Rock; that's where the strangest sounds came from when I was a kid. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Ethos
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 00:53
Good music taste. I lean more towards the symphonic side rather than space rock. Back to the question at hand: What is it about prog in relation to gender that makes you an exception to the rule (from a woman's perspective)? In other words, what connected with you that doesn't connect with many other women? There has got to be more to it than "my brother listened to it." ------------- "As sure as Eggs is Eggs." |
Posted By: WatcherOfTheSkies88
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 03:57
| I think everyone is missing one of the most important reasons why Men like prog more than Women: vocals. Women seem to put much more importance on vocals than Men do. Some progressive rock songs have long instrumental sections, and that can turn women off... because they crave to hear the human voice sing. Women want songs with vocals and minimal instrumental breaks. |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 05:29
My brother was my hero when I was a kid; he could answer any question I had, and I had a lot. Sometimes the explanations were over my head, but that only made me more eager to learn. I was a child prodigy in math (which in itself is considered to be unusual in a woman). After I had bought him two albums of bands he had never heard about (as Christmas and birthday presents; "Godbluff" by VdGG and "Live Etc." by Gong; I liked the Escher geometry of the VdGG logo and the photos on the inside sleeves of "Live etc.") but which he liked immediately he called me "mein kleiner Spürhund" ("my little track hound"). The music put me into a dreamlike state, which perhaps was further enhanced by the sweet smoke which was in the air, though I was never passed the joint myself. I imagined all kinds of strange things going on when listening to the music (for example I saw a coasstline, on which man on a horse fled from Death swinging a scythe on a skeletal steed when listening to "Rubycon" by Tangerine Dream). I vividly remember the first sound which lured me into my brother's room; it was the sound of Steve Hackett's guitar during the quiet part of "The Knife" from the "Live" album of Genesis. I had never heard anything like it before. The sound was so eery and at the same time so beautiful. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 06:24
| I think it's because.....no I shouldn't say that...oh hell I'll say it. I think it's because in 98% of cases it seems women like really bad music and want nothing more than something they can sing and dance around to. Seeing as it's hard to dance in 7/8.... |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 06:30
It is not hard to dance in 7/8 at all, not even to much more complicated rhythms. Have you ever been to a concert of Embryo? They play extremely complex rhythms (they are trained in the tala tarangini,the Indian art of drumming with extremely complicated rhythm patterns), and people dance like mad on their concerts. ------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 06:35
Post deleted by Rushfan4 after quoted post was removed.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 06:52
Wooh, you know how to upset women, don't you? Diana Krall I accept is a bit bland at times, but she is an incredibly talented musician and singer, as is Tori Amos.
Women generally don't like long passages of instrumental music, which is why my wife likes "Follow You Follow Me" but hates pretty much the rest of Genesis.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 06:53
That post shows your enlightened attitude to women even better than your avatar!!! Just wait till Rachel reads this.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 06:55
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There are a lot of things that attract a great deal more males than females: Video games, action movies, NASCAR, finance, and crime. Then certain things attract a great deal more females than males: Soap operas, fashion, scrapbooking, teaching, and Justin Bieber. One could say that with all the things in this world, there are bound to be categories that involve many more men than women or vice versa. However, I firmly believe men and woman are fundamentally different on a psychological level, and that this is an important aspect of God's design on human relationships. There are anomalies, of course, but I think this is how it is in general. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Ethos
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 06:56
Very interesting to say the least. Steve Hackett is my favorite guitarist of all time. Voyage Of The Acolyte is my favorite of his works. Its not about flash, but substance. He plays with such feeling and emotion. I also like Gong, Tangerine Dream, and King Crimson very much, (AS WELL AS TORI AMOS, AND DIANA KRALL, I might add). Fripp is amazing to say the least! I never really envisioned things so to speak, although when I first heard the mellotron with human voices on the tape loops, I envisioned the clouds parting to reveal the heavens. There is a strong, strong connection between music and math. The complex structure of prog appeals to me. I love complex time signatures. Genesis's Apocalypse in 9/8 from Supper's Ready really intrigues me to this day. Structurally, you have two very different opposing counter rhythm's going on at different paces and somehow they meet up at the end. Pure genius and a little luck perhaps.  Another great one mathematically (to me) is Dream Theater's Dance of Eternity.Great to have you here! After reading some of the replies to this topic, I am surprised there are any females present on this site at all.  That in and of itself may have answered my original question!------------- "As sure as Eggs is Eggs." |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 07:06
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You know I really admire Bald Friede's patience with you guys in her attempt to answer these naive questions, and I think some of you have been sincere in your queries, but I think this tendency to want to 'figure out' women as if they are specimens under a microscope is, to me anyway, kind of embarrassing and really borderline insulting to women in general.
We've had about a million threads like this already and I usually shut them down, but I thought I would give Freide a chance to talk on this one. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 07:22
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"After reading some of the replies to this topic, I am surprised there are any females present on this site at all. That in and of itself may have answered my original question!" - Ethos
QFT |
Posted By: refugee
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 07:31
Let me see … There was Mette, whom I met while I studied in Bergen. She must have been 19 or 20. I played Pawn Hearts for her, and she fell in love immediately (with the music, not with me ). She was also a big fan of Gentle Giant.Then there was Adriana from Spain. Her favourite record was Godbluff, and I remember she asked me to put on The Undercover Man at a party. The perfect party music if you ask me. And then you have my sister. In her latest novel, Smokers don’t Play Elastics, she and her friend Teddy are drinking coffee and playing Monopoly (they are 12 years old and don’t want to be children any more): I put on a record by Van der Graaf Generator. Van der Graaf Generator were a rather weird band that my brother used to listen to. I was through with ABBA now. Somehow prog rock was a better companion to coffee. – F*cking cool music, Teddy said. – I know, said I. (my translation) Later on they listen to The Who, Bowie, The Incredible String Band, Pink Floyd and early Genesis. 12 years old. My sister has always been a little different (in a good sense). My point is that I don’t think this has anything to do with biology. I’ve seen so many exceptions to the rule that I don’t consider it a rule at all. ------------- He say nothing is quite what it seems; I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 08:03
I quite agree with you. It is in vogue to think of humans as blank slates that have personality imposed on them by their environment. Everything in my experience contradicts this view. I don't know why the notion that men and women are fundamentally different is so offensive to some people. No one is saying one is better than the other, just different. -------------
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 08:59
I think of all the analytical thinking, personal experiences, and "information from the source
" we've got in this thread, nothing has made as much sense as what Epignosis and thellama73 are saying. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 09:02
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Because it's a guy thing? You know, you can make generalizations about people in general, but they remain generalizations in the end. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 09:06
People in my demographic never generalize. -------------
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Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 09:41
All this conservative opinions have me shocked or dissgusted .
The answer is easy: Guys are freakier than girls, and i say it in the bad sense.
But dont wanna generalize more
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 09:46
Agreed. And some could argue that what is actually demeaning to women is not an occasional boorish joke or comment, but rather taking the view that women must be "protected" from the speech or thoughts of others. That they can't handle a conversation such as this, and so we must perpetuate the belief that this kind of conversation has a "victim", women, and we must sterilize their surroundings. Is that respect? I'm not sure.
I'm happy to say most of the women I know would laugh at the notion that a thread like this is a threat to them personally, or as a gender.
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 10:19
| Did anyone notice that this site is crawling with nerds? Maybe it has more appeal to nerds than other types of music (which is does) - and a lower percentage of the women are nerds than men, so there. |
Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 10:23
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Prog is aimed at men; that's why; look at Brain Salad Surgery, for instance. Look- classic rock era- most music by men. Prog comes from classic rock. Prog most by men - prog music manish- men like prog women don't flawless logic? |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 10:26
Flawless, no.
Some women like prog. Some men don't.
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 10:33
Yes, but generally Its a social thing, not a music thing. Women could like Prog, but the social pressure is to not like it, or rather to like some other thing. How can women get together with their friends and talk about the Delicate Sound of Thunder like I can with people I know? From when I was a boy I could discuss PF with other men. Could a girl do the same, except by going across the boundaries of gender norms? (What a weird sounding bunch o' lines) |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 10:37
Totally agree with Henry... I didn't think you were actually talking seriously about this... but man... any woman can actually do the same about some Male "composers" or musicians... you know... Tori Amos is better than most of males in composition... I mean, you can like her or not, but she is very talented and her understanding of music is very superior and I don't think you can actually make songs better than hers... and I tell you, I can't and I am a dedicated musician...
Now, to the topic... I think the real reason is that women are more sensitive than men, and I don't mean that they only appreciate love songs, but they understand music not in metric and time signatures but in feeling and emotions... My bandmates are girls and to every single riff or phrase that I show to them they interpret emotions more than what cool figure I'm doing but most of the time they are right about what I feel or felt when I compose those phrases. And that's cool because or songs makes a lot more of sense, which I don't have, I'm too cold to have that perception...
Of course there are less women than man in this site... but there are very good at it... Raff is a key example... ------------- |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 10:43
That's not an accurate thought man... Women don't talk about music as men do... they talk in a more sensitive way and they even don't care to talk about music... they talk about more important things to them... Generally, as you say, women find politics, sports and music boring to talk about... and they are right, actually... is not that they don't like it, but is boring for them to "talk" about it... tell me, what interesting can be talk about a great solo... you know, no matter what you thought about it, the solo exists wether you like it or not... so... maybe for us is completely boring watching a chickflick but actually they like it because there you see more emotions and less thoughts...
Men are boring... I do feel sorry for the girls that actually have to fall in love with us... they are more interesting than us... that's for sure... ------------- |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:13
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I'm sorry but after reading to some of the posts on this thread I have but to agree that stupidity is the main ingredient necessary to be nerdy, socially-isolated, misogynist prog-rock fan.... Yes, right, women don't like VDGG so they're stupid. Well Mr Wiseguy, women are kicking men's asses in symphonic orchestras' enrollment all around the world. Maybe they prefer BETTER music? Oh go ahead and believe that little prog rock is the ultimate test for intelligence.... Stonebeard cited valuable reasons. Women may me socialized to like more commercial music, they're raised that way. But that's completely different to saying that they just can't like non-commercial music because that's not one of their talents. And if we judge talent based on the first posts of this thread, damn we have the mental intelligence of a 10 year old kid... ------------- 
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:15
I happen to think this album is an unlistenable blow of hot air. Does that mean I'm a lady?  My two cents: No emotion + no substance + crap lyrics + technical bragging ==> No Ladies Luckily 90% of Prog is much more then that, so go out all of you and convince more people of that ! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:17
OMG, can we spray for nerds or something??? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:19
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The problem with most of the guys that started this thread is that they probably don't even know one single woman...
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:27
Correct me if I'm wrong. But I think you can get special shampoo from the Chemist (Is that Drugstore?) . You have to use it regularly though!  ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:28
So true. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:31
| To be fair, I don't even know why I was attracted to prog. |
Posted By: jampa17
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:31
despite of your acid comment... you are right... they sound like those little boys at 6 or 8 years old that don't like women at all... grow up pals, life is way more entertaining and interesting with women around... I repeat what interesting is there to talk about sports, religion, politics and music? women don't do that... they know that talking is a complete waste of time... that's why I love them... ------------- |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 12:43
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Because girls have cooties???
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 13:24
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Again? Well, some things don't change, do they? Funnily, it reminds that I will attend the concerts of some free-jazz female musicians next week. Not "prog" enough, maybe... |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 14:09
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The question should rather be, why does prog, in theory a musically-demanding genre (at least compared with regular pop), attract so many of the simple-minded? -------------
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Posted By: sealchan
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 16:30
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I recommend, for some studies on women and how they tend to process knowledge, the book Women's Ways of Knowing. One generalization to come out of this work is that woman solve problems in a more collaborative way (sensitive to the perspectives/feelings of others) than men do. How I understand this is that men tend to prefer rules and if you break a rule well then you suck and who cares...things don't go your way, but that's cool. Women tend to be more willing to reconsider each situation if there is someone who is going to loose out even if that person bears some responsibility for their being "on the outs". But if you are always struggling against the group then you might "fall out" of the realm of consideration and be excluded. Of course this doesn't define how men or women think or act, it is more the "center" or "home" or "path of least resistance" that men or women have to start from. I suspect that intrasexual socialization holds the bulk of the responsibility for this difference between the sexes and not so much the natural or genetic makeup of the individual.
So in the spectrum of music does prog rock appeal less to a collaborative/socially oriented individual? Does music that speaks directly of relationships and/or is experienced through attending performances and/or can be danced to along with others and/or is "popular" of more interest to women because it plays to their socialized preferences for knowing?
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Posted By: sealchan
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 16:32
Or should we say socially simple-minded?
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 16:59
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What's a female? ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 17:00
The pretty humans who accompany you on your travels through space and time. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 17:04
Is there a difference? The "genius" who can't get more than cockroaches to listen to his nonsense is no more than the fool who speaks for a crowd... and the latter one will probably matter more in the end. Let the little people think they're special because they listen to prog and have found out that women "are not smart"... Soon they'll realize how trivial, mundane, complete unoriginal they are and how dumber they look next to a clever, smart, prog-or-pop-or-sh*t-it-doesn't-matter-what-music-loving woman...
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 17:04
Oh those...like Amy, Ace, Sarah Jane, Peri, etc. (sigh)...what was the question again?  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 17:25
Well I'm sure some just pretend to like it to seem smart. However, I have theory about the seeming inverse correlation between book smarts and common sense/ social acumen. I think that many of the really smart scientific types get that way by actually stealing processing power from the subconscious parts of the brain. Therefore, stuff that the average person would just pick up on automatically, escapes them. Of course, the fact I'm speaking in these terms probably means I'm dangerously close to this syndrome as well. As to the veracity of that supposition, no comment. Oh and lots of men hate women, too, don't forget that. I think a few posters here have proved that. I personally think that the defining characteristics of each gender are determined more by society than morphology. Therefore, any inequality in differing areas of talent and perception can be attributed to upbringing, rather than an intrinsic lack of value. I leave this post with a final quote: "The battle of the sexes will never be won. There's simply to much fraternizing with the enemy."
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 18:52
I think you're being a little ridiculous, T. This thread is not an attack on women, and apart from one guy who said women were stupid (which may have been sarcasm, hard to tell) no one has said anything bad about them. Granted, I said they have terrible taste in music, but that's hardly a scathing criticism. Most people have terrible taste in something or another. Point the second: No women have commented on this thread stating that they are offended, so why be so quick to jump to their defense? Clearly, they are not as bothered by this as you. In fact, most of the personal attacks in the thread have been by you, so don;t go calling the kettle black. Personally, I find the differences between men and women fascinating and I think the thread is a very interesting one. The study (and I know calling this a study is a stretch) of psychology should not be suspended because someone might get their feelings hurt. Men and Women are psychologically different. Don't let political correctness stand in the way what every person with common sense has known since the dawn of time. -------------
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 19:43
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This isn't directed at you Mr Llama in any kind of rebuttal sort of way, but just an observation of the whole thread:
I don't think anyone is offended, but for myself, I think embarrassed is a better word for it, there is just something juvenile and naive about all this, hard to explain, just a gut reaction. |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 19:48
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Posted By: moe_blunts
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 19:58
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It's a penis thang.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/moe_blunts/?chartstyle=minimalDarkRecent"> 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 23 2010 at 20:56
Exactly. Llama, do you really think this thread was about starting "serious discussion" on the subject? I study psychology and have taken classes on the subject for christ's sake and never have I found a good way to start a scientific or serious discussion about a subject using so mature comments as the first posts did.... And yes, women don't react because they left this site long ago... -------------
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Posted By: RoyFairbank
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 00:02
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You guys are scary the SHEET out of me. If I ever had a long term partner I want her to be SMART, POLITICAL, CREATIVE, MAYBE LIKE THE RED SOX, JUST LIKE ME (except for the creative part, unless you count the endless crap I do) you guys are saying, and I quote "women find politics, sports and music boring to talk about" |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 00:32
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Politcs ARE bolring; I am not interested in a "who's the biggest liar" contest.
------------- BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 00:43
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^Men are usually more power-hungry than women... though society is changing... -------------
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 00:50
Edit: the male managers are no better.
2nd Edit: those who are desperately seeking to move up the corporate management chain, regardless of sex, are invariably back-stabbing, devious, and not to be trusted.------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 00:53
I think that since traditionally women have not had too much power, that when they get it they tend to go a little overboard. Kind of like a college kid binge drinking on their 21st birthday, whereas an older person has learned how to hold their liquor. -------------
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 00:55
------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 00:57
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Oh, well nevermind then.
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 01:05
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As to the original topic: my wife is not a huge prog fan. She tends to like the melodic stuff, say The Moody Blues or The Decemberists. She doesn't much care for the noisy stuff, say Arthur Brown or The Mars Volta. Same holds true jazz-wise. She likes Stan Getz (Getz/Gilberto) or John Coltrane's Ballads, but will not be found listening to Miles Davis' On The Corner. This is why God created headphones. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Ethos
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 01:21
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I was serious when I posted the topic. When we were at the show last Sunday, my 20 year old son looked over to me and commented, "Look around Dad, it's all middle aged men here. I thought, hey, I'll present the question to Progarchives, hoping to stimulate an analytical discussion on why that is so. Forgive me, I am a newbie. There was no malice in the question, it was strickly based on observation. I certainly do not know the answer myself. Even early Genesis were puzzled that they only attracted male audiences for the most part, and that is well documented. This is not true in most other genres of music I might add. In hindsight, perhaps I should have stated the question this way, "Why did the Transatlantic concert attract so many middle aged men?" After reading many of these non intellectual, emotional, knee jerk replies, I have a feeling I would have pissd off some other demographic regardless of how I worded it. We are not solving world peace here. Everybody needs to take a chill pill! ------------- "As sure as Eggs is Eggs." |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 01:39
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Well put Ethos, there was nothing wrong with your observations and i hope you'll continue to share them. Some unfortunate responses were made by others, but that happens. Stick around
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Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 03:20
I seem to remember a similar remark by a female collab from a couple of months ago. I guess this has probably been discussed already, so... what are the reasons?
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 03:34
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We all know Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Thats a fact.
mens view of WIFE:
Washing
Ironing
Food
Entertainment
the real truth====
Wholesome security
Intimate conversation
Feminine romance
Emotionally centred
and er... the female answer to MALE
Many
Articles
Left
Everywhere
and the real truth====
Masculinity reinforced
Adequacy reinforced
Leadership approved
Eros centred
A woman's needs:
caress her, care for her, squeeze her, please her, hug her, love her, dine her, wine her, tease her,
massage her, spoil her, touch her, romance her, help her, hold her, kiss her, talk to her....
A man's needs:
show up naked and bring beer! ------------- 
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Posted By: ReaganwillshottyLibs
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 03:38
Prove that women are capable of listening to enlightened music and I'll change my mind.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 24 2010 at 04:56
 ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |