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What is happening in Jerusalem? |
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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Dear Steve, i try to explain my opinion. In this whole thread, if you look, I have never talked about hatred of Jews towards Palestinians, or of Palestinians towards Jews. There are two different peoples, two different religions, one sacred city, Jerusalem, which is the cause of everything. I don't think there is hatred behind what's going on. Palestinian society is very advanced and secular, and before 1948 it never had any problems with Jews. Hamas is the fruit of the radicalization of the conflict, but it does not represent the Palestinians, who are not religious fanatics. Israeli Jews went to Israel convinced that that land was theirs from the Mediterranean to the Jordan. They knew they were unwanted settlers, they knew the Arabs would attack them but they went there anyway, they got into the wolf's mouth. Why? Because driven by a nationalist ideology, Zionism, which, even if secular, in reality made the biblical tradition its own, and then because they were driven by the Shoah, and then because they knew they would be protected by Europe and the United States. The Arabs have tried to destroy them, as they expected, they have won the war and now, having won the war, they believe that they have the right to conquer all the land up to the Jordan River. The only obstacle is the Palestinians: they are trying to make them live huddled in bantustans under their control. And the last step will be to raze the esplanade of the mosque, because they believe that underneath are the foundations of the temple. The Palestinians strengthened their national identity with Israel's constitution, and Jordan went to great lengths to take control of the mosque esplanade. In a certain sense, the Palestinians are the Muslims who protect the esplanade of mosques from the Jews, who believe that the temple is down there. They cannot leave, they will do everything to be able to enter the great mosque. Hamas fired rockets because israel desecrated the mosque, firing on the faithful. The depth explanation for the conflict is archeology and religion. There is also hatred, iok, t is formed by violence and war, but it is an effect, the Palestinians do not hate the Jews, and the Israeli Jews do not hate the Palestinians. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15149 |
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@Lorenzo: I appreciate your efforts and I learn a great deal doing more research prompted by the discussion here. I should disclose that I don't see myself as objective and unbiased. I am German and I have Jews among my friends. As a German I feel some responsibility, not personal responsibility for what happened in the past when I was not yet born, but responsibility against antisemitism, and a responsibility toward the Jews and their desire for their own state, which as rogerthat correctly wrote was made much stronger and more necessary through the actions of my country in the past. As such I feel strongly repelled by Hamas and any statement on the Arab side that denies the Jews their right to their own state. This will strongly limit my support for the Arab/Palestinian side as long as their leaders show this kind of view, despite being able to see the bad state in which Israeli actions left the Palestinians as you rightly point out (and for sure Israel doesn't have my support in this respect). Regarding some details, disagreements remain. The decision of the UN in 1947 may or may not have been a mistake, surely there were reasons to believe that a bi-national state wouldn't work, as there are today. I am not in the position to know what would have happened so you may be right but then you may not.
This is not true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
The last time Palestinians voted, in 2006, they gave Hamas a majority. The whole issue of who has right to the land in connection with the situation before 1947 is a mess as obviously there was no Palestinian state, the area was Ottoman and then a British mandate, both colonial powers. The people saw themselves predominantly as Arabs as far as I know, not specifically as Palestinians. One source of problems is that after 1947 the Palestinians were also not welcome at many times in many Arab nations despite earlier dreams of a united Arab nation; partly this is due to the mismanagement of the colonial heritage by the British (other European nations would probably have been happy to contribute to the mess had they had the same power as the British at the time). A united state had been promised to the Arabs but was not granted to them partly because of mismanagement by Britain and the UN, partly because of Arab in-fighting. The majority of Israelis in Israel was strengthened also by a forced exodus of Jews from Arab countries after 1947. Now you are right, the Israelis have the power and the Palestinians are suppressed, but the Israelis have some reason to believe that they wouldn't be left in peace in a bi-national country that may seem to you from the outside as an optimal solution, but none of the two nations involved seems to want that. That said, I have no better solution.
![]() Edited by Lewian - May 21 2021 at 17:21 |
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The Dark Elf ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13227 |
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I miss back when Ringo Starr was the leader of the PLO.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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The definition of hatred found in a dictionary is the intense dislike of one person towards another. And that's all. But hatred is determined in real life by actions as well as feelings. When a person explodes a bomb, by whatever means, in a place that contains innocent men, women and children, with no regard for their deaths or injury, that is hatred. Regardless of some explanation by the bomber that their actions were done as an act of duress or desperation. They have committed violence. And their disregatd for life is hate, plain and simple. If you and I cannot call out hatred for what it is, then our efforts in this thread are in vain. And so are the efforts of both sides of this conflict for not admitting that their actions are indeed based on hatred, because their actions have always spoken louder than their words. Edited by SteveG - May 21 2021 at 20:08 |
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Biden throws his weight behind two state solution.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Yes, the radical left of his party have spoken.
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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Christian 1) The link you mentioned to me about the Arab uprisings is about the Palestinians rising up against the British and the Jewish settlers, because they are undergoing colonization against their will and they fear that the British will leave a Jewish state to the newly arrived Jews. This does not contradict what I wrote to you, which is that before the creation of Israel the Palestinians had no problems with the Jews. In this case, they had problems with the Zionists settlers. 2) Hamas was elected in 2006, but Hamas has never had popular leaders like Arafat, who was a secular socialist, in his own way, and if you talk to an Islamist he will confirm to you that Palestinian society is, by Arab standards , very secular. Then Hamas has only commanded the Gaza Strip for 15 years now, most Palestinians live in the West Bank and do not support Hamas. As far as I know, Hamas is also detested by many Palestinians in Gaza. There are no polls on how many Palestinians approve of Hamas rocket firings, while in previous Israeli wars with bombings on Gaza, where 99% Palestinian civilians and 30% children still die, Israeli polls give the favorable population about the 90%. 3) If you've seen Steven Spielberg's Munich (Jewish director, Jewish screenwriter), in one scene a Palestinian says: I'm not Arab, I'm Palestinian. Palestinian identity is very distinct today from Arab identity (in 1947 this was not the case) 4) Do you remember the song Pishkuli, by Les Anarchiestes? I've posted it in an Interactive Poll. The singer was the director and theater actor Moni Ovadia, who is perhaps the most disputed Jew in Italy by his community of him, because, for example, these days, he said: "Israel's politics is segregationist, racist, colonialist - says the actor, musician and writer of Jewish origin - And the international community is of a repugnant partiality. With a few rare exceptions, countries like Sweden and some South American countries do not he looks to see that the condition of the Palestinian people is that of the loneliest, most abandoned people on earth because everyone gives in to the blackmail of the infamous exploitation of the Shoah ". Moni Ovadia explains even better: "All this has nothing to do with the extermination of the Jews, it is pure exploitation. Today Israel is a very powerful, highly armed state, which has the most powerful countries on earth as allies and which just makes a small protest all countries bow down, starting with Germany with its terrifying feelings of guilt ". https://www.adnkronos.com/moni-ovadia-politica-israele-infame-e-senza-pari-strumentalizza-shoah_3151RAi6zwnLmC7HGWrGLY Moni Ovadia does Jiddish cabaret, tells stories of the Yiddish Jewish tradition, is a fabulous singer and theatrical actor, who knows, since you understand Italian, maybe we will be able to go to a show of him together in Italy! PS If you want to study the situation, I advice you: Read the latest edition of ‘Obstacles to Peaceon ichad.org
Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 22 2021 at 13:31 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 43444 |
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On the subject of Israel, how come they're in the Eurovision Song Contest every year? I thought Israel was in Asia. Next thing you know, Turkey (Asia Minor) and Azerbaijan (on the Caspian Sea) will want to be included in the contest too. Oh, hang on a minute, they already are.
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Shadowyzard ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: February 24 2020 Location: Davutlar Status: Offline Points: 4506 |
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^ Paul; we, Turkey, have been out of the Eurovision Song Contest for some years.
Or are we in again? Anyway, the public voting thing is disastrous... Therefore, unless some things change for the better in Eurovision, I'll not be interested in it that much, I presume. Edited by Shadowyzard - May 23 2021 at 02:54 |
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 43444 |
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Yes, you're quite right, Turkey weren't in last night's contest, but I noticed Azerbaijan were still included. By the way, if you didn't see or hear last night's Eurovision, you didn't miss much.
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Shadowyzard ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: February 24 2020 Location: Davutlar Status: Offline Points: 4506 |
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^ Glad to hear that! BTW, I'm always amazed how Germany and England (not always, of course) participate with horrible bands and artists... Being two of the BEST countries when it comes to music. This is not a sarcasm. I really think Germans and the English are among the best in music. I just find it ironic... We, Turkey, on the other hand; seem to be taking this competition too seriously.
![]() Edited by Shadowyzard - May 23 2021 at 03:37 |
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Mirakaze ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Eclectic, JRF/Canterbury, Avant/Zeuhl Joined: December 17 2019 Location: (redacted) Status: Offline Points: 4229 |
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Turkey and Azerbaijan are historically seen as being on the crossroads of Europe and Asia, and the border between the two continents is highly arbitrary and historically/culturally bound anyway; according to Adenauer the Asian steppes began east of the Elbe river... I suppose Israel is allowed to take part in the contest because it's considered to be more connected with European culture than Asian culture seeing as how most of its subjects were either born in Europe or immigrated from Europe a generation or two ago. Really, when even Australia is allowed to take part then I guess anything goes...
Edited by Mirakaze - May 23 2021 at 03:43 |
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 43444 |
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Yes, I remember how we used to laugh at the Norwegians for having finished last in the Eurovision no less than 11 times and four of those times without having scored any points at all, and then guess what happened..... In the 2003 contest, our dreadfully out-of-tune "Cry Baby" entry by Jemini scored precisely "nul points".
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Psychedelic Paul ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 16 2019 Location: Nottingham, U.K Status: Online Points: 43444 |
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There's just something about the name Azerbaijan that doesn't sound very European to me.
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suitkees ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Paul, please stop this completely off-topic intrusion in other peoples threads. Especially here, it is indecent and you're derailing the thread. If you don't understand that this is (another) example of trolling, then you have to ask yourself some questions (and maybe read the whole of the thread before posting in it)!
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15149 |
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@Lorenzo: The ICHAD document is very interesting but of course not fast to read. As I said I'm learning. One can learn most from taking seriously the side that makes a point with which one disagrees or which at least leaves one skeptical. As I said before, I think open-mindedness for how the other side comes to their point of view and a sincere attempt to understand is the most important asset in conflict when longing for peace. Obviously for people who had their home bombed or taken away this is the most difficult if not impossible thing, but as I understand, you are not one of them. You are very knowledgeable and your engagement is honorable, but I hope you also try hard to see the point that the other side has. Note also that the fact that somebody is a Jew doesn't make automatically correct every critical thing they say about Israel (I'm not saying those you cite are lying, but you seem to use the fact that they are Jews as an argument, which it isn't really - like in any other country, those who argue against the government are not automatically right, even though of course I myself also value a lot statements of Jews that go against Netanyahu politics). Also...
I don't understand this sentence. These percentages are percentages of what exactly? Neither do I have an idea what polls you are talking about, who is favorable regarding what? Surely 99% of Palestinian civilians have not died, surely 100% will die as human beings use to do... Anyway, regarding what most Palestinians now think of Hamas we can only speculate, but in 2006 they were strong also in the West Bank, as they won an overall majority (not only in Gaza).
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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It is clear that Hamas won the 2006 elections, but this tells us nothing about the Palestinian population regarding their religiosity and civilization. The only real leader they had was Arafat, a progressive Muslim, of a secular background, married to a Christian woman, and Arafat went to the Christian Christmas mass in the basilica of the nativity. What should we think? That first the Palestinians were secular Muslims and then all of a sudden they became fundamentalists because they voted for Hamas? Palestinian society must be considered according to other criteria. I have read many experts on Islam talking about the various Islamic states and their populations, and they all agree that the Palestinians are a very multi-religious and secular society, by Middle Eastern standards (such as the Syrian one before the war). For example, Christians in both Israel and the West Bank are very integrated with the Palestinians. What we can hypothesize is that, after the death of Arafat, strongly desired by Sharon for the elimination of the only true Palestinian leader, knowing that after him the Palestinians would have slaughtered themselves in internal struggles for power, it happened in both society, the Israeli and the Palestinian, a radicalization, which brought the religious right to power: the messianic right in Israel, which now also has the support of the left (leaders of the Israeli left like Barak have made ministers for right-wing governments ), and Hamas in Palestine. Except that Hamas was fought by Fatah, and eventually took refuge in Gaza, Netanhyau instead became the strongest and most enduring Israeli leader after Sharon and the Israeli left has practically disappeared. Now we know that Israel has become a nationalist and religious state, led by the messianic right, which it was not in the beginning (Ben Gurion), while it is difficult to pronounce on the Palestinians because society is now completely fragmented in the enclaves in which they are locked up and many analysts say who do not feel represented by anyone at the political level, because abu Mazen no one considers him a chief in Palestine, he has no real power, and Hamas is in Gaza, and there have been no more real and recognized unitary elections, they are in a power vacuum. What I was saying on the polls was this: When Hamas fires rockets, we don't know how many Palestinians approve, nor how many Palestinian parties approve, because there is no parliament to decide and there are no population polls. On the other hand, in the case of Israel, it is known who in the Knesset is against the launching of missiles on Gaza, and usually there are also polls made by the most important Israeli newspapers that tell us how much population is in favor. According to the latest wars, for example that of 2009 (the most catastrophic for Gaza), I know for sure that the newspaper polls said that 90% of the Jewish population was in favor. In the Knesset the only opposition is usually made by the Communist Party (which I don't know if it still exists, it is very small) and the parties led by the Palestinians. For the war against Lebanon, 2006, Amos Oz, Abraham Yehoshua, and David Grossman, very famous writers in Europe, and considered pacifists, open-minded Israeli, they were in favor, they evaluated that war as right from any point of view. And it was a terrible war. In this recent war you didn't listen to words of condamn from no Jewish writer or intellectual against Israel, didnt you? The most important Palestinian writer, Mahamoud Darwish, instead, he was very critic against Palestinians leaders (Arafat, in that case).
Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 23 2021 at 19:25 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Ok, the ceasefire is holding. Thread over.
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Lewian ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 15149 |
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@Lorenzo: I think we have pretty much exhausted this for now, thanks for all the information posted, and be it somewhat one-sided. Ultimately Israel is in the best position to improve matters, so it's fair enough to direct protest at them, whoever may have had responsibility for what in the past.
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