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Equality 7-2521 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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 Posted: September 15 2010 at 07:44 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Seriously Equality, you reply is hallucinating, I have supported all my claims with data from the National Assessment of Adult Literacy and The National Center for Education Statistics, which tell you that at least 14.5% or 30'000,000 adults (If you want numbers and not percentages, are functionally illiterate,) you give none and still say the data supports your claim.
How? |
I gave data. I just didn't give hyperlinks. Type them into google and you'll see it. Your sources are equating poor literacy with illiteracy as clearly stated in their descriptions.
Ivan wrote:
And you insist without any argument that I can't answer a statement about rates with rates? How can I talk about the truth of a statement made in rates without using rates?
The worst...You don't say why...Maybe we can only use rates if you agree with our opinion?
How in hell can you compare two countries with different population if you don't use rates? |
You would have to take (# of illiterate people in world - # of illiterate people in US) / (# of people in world - # of people in US). You could then compare those two rates.
Your analysis is meaningless.
Ivan wrote:
Please, read Thellama's post.
- Yeah, and most of the world is wrong
- Most of the world has lower literacy rates too, .
When he uses the word too (In this case means also) he's clearly saying Most of the world is wrong, also most of the world has lower.....
It's clear as water, I don't know what he means, but I know what he wrote.
Please, justify what you say.
Iván |
Yes, and I'm saying that his point was not to call the rest of the world illiterate. As I said before, he was making the point that just because a majority of people have a property, it is not a desirable property. All of the world has a smaller GDP than the US, but that does not mean the US should strive to lower its GDP.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 07:46 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Not even in USA, where you can open a page and give the names of undercover officers of the law and informants..
Iván |
Yes you can. If you obtain the information legally, you are free to spread that information. The person who illegally leaked it can be charged, but not a third person who merely spreads the information.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 09:47 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Seriously Ivan, I know you're a lawyer, but you can stop equivocating to try to make your point.
The data supports my statement, no doubt about it.
You can't compare rates, no doubt about it.
Llama meant what I just told you he meant, no doubt about it. He'll verify it himself when he's online. |
Yes, I meant exactly what Pat says I meant.
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 09:48 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Paravion wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Paravion wrote:
No, I don't think it should be forbidden. It is this whole line of discourse where it comes down to this question I oppose to. I don't oppose to freedom of expression. |
Then I don't think you and I have any real disagreement. Although I do think you're being much too generous to the opposing side, but as long as you don't want something forbidden, you can discourage it all you want. Hell, I discourage behavior I don't like, too. But again, I was speaking about things on a different level, I suppose. |
Glad we could reach some sort of agreement. But the thing is that the level where it comes down to an issue of freedom of expression is unfortunately far too widespread. Bear in mind that I'm from the land of the Mohammed Cartoons, and this is still extensively debated in the media. I find myself in fundamental disagreement with those who constantly tries to make this an issue of Jyllands Postens (the name of the newspaper that printed the cartoons) right to do so. Of course they had the right. No one in their right mind would question that. But when the discourse goes down this line, we digress from the central issue and it inevitably results in a nonconstructive and some times quite disrespectful "us and them, either/or rhetoric", where little (if any) importance is given to pragmatic, humanist, social and cultural aspects. I don't perceive that as remotely constructive in the forming of a new multi-cultural -ethnic & -religious society - a real challenge we are facing in many European countries, and - to some extend - also in the States, I believe.
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This is going down the road of "let's be nice to the extremists, and they'll be nice to us". I don't agree ... appeasement is usually a bad idea when dealing with bullies.
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I don't think so. It doesn't exclusively concern us and a minority of 'bullies'. It's about going down a constructive 'road' where "general respectful behavior plays a part in causing less marginalization and a higher degree of tolerance." I think this is essential.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 11:14 |
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^ Do you really think that censorship is the appropriate tool of getting people to be more respectful? I'd rather allow insulting statements and then work towards a society where people choose not to make them.
Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 15 2010 at 12:08
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:01 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You would have to take (# of illiterate people in world - # of illiterate people in US) / (# of people in world - # of people in US). You could then compare those two rates.
Your analysis is meaningless.
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Are you in acid?  
Thellama73 wrote:
Most of the world has lower literacy rates |
And your "brilliant" (sarcasm) methodology is to compare the total illiterate population of the world vs the total illiterate population of USA?????
- What are you going to get from this comparison?
- How are you going to find that Most of the World? Measuring? Weighting, hemispheres?,
Your methodology (if you can call this aberration a methodology) is useless and 'ridiculous, you have to compare countries with countries using rates because not all the countries have the same population, your reply is a joke.
I tell you in advance, of course there are going to be more illiterates in the whole world, there are 310,254,417 USA citizens vs 6,558'900,000 humans in the world (outside USA), a great part of whom live in the poorest countries of the world and countries like Tanzania with ain incredible high rate of illiteracy, so 20 ttimes more people in poorest regions will give you higher total numbers....But this comparuison tells you nothing remotely transcendental for statistics..
.How and why would you make that absurd comparison.
Noww, oif you compare by countries you will find that Tanzania will have higher rates of illiteracy, but Bolivia no (which a few years ago was the country with more illiteracy in South America and has go down from 14% in 2001 to 4% in 2009), and having infinite less resources than USA....That's a comparison, your proposition is pointless.
That's the most absurd reply I could expect, and absolutely meaningless, it only proves that you don't care about what is said, but in how you can invent a reply with no feet or head..
This is unbelievable, outrageous, would be funny if your argument wasn't pathetic.
Iván
PS: Of course thelama will say you are right, because his example was wrong.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 15 2010 at 12:07
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:04 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Not even in USA, where you can open a page and give the names of undercover officers of the law and informants..
Iván |
Yes you can. If you obtain the information legally, you are free to spread that information. The person who illegally leaked it can be charged, but not a third person who merely spreads the information. |
This are your laws, you have to live with them.
Iván
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:05 |
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I don't care about the literacy thing. I just used it as an example. Although your claim that 14% of Americans are illiterate is absurd and no amount of sources you produce will convince me otherwise. I have lived in the U.S. my whole life and never encountered a person who cannot read. Even homeless people can read.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:24 |
thellama73 wrote:
I don't care about the literacy thing. I just used it as an example. Although your claim that 14% of Americans are illiterate is absurd and no amount of sources you produce will convince me otherwise. I have lived in the U.S. my whole life and never encountered a person who cannot read. Even homeless people can read. |
So you make a satement to reinforce your position and you don't care for it?  Then why do you say it?
Now:
- The National Center for Education Statistics
- USA Department of Education
- NAAL (National Assessment of Adult Literacy)
Tell you with data, startistics and information county by county that there is between 14.5% and 14.7% of illiteracy in USA, and you say this is absurd because you live in there and you never found an illiterate person? 
You even say that no source will convince you. WOW,and they tell us dogmatic. 
Another brilliant (sarcasm again) reply.
This is why I believe books are to be read and not to burn.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 15 2010 at 12:28
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:27 |
Llama, I have met many people who can't read. I see approx 20 new patients a week. 2-3 require assistance to fill out a basic form asking for name and address. Though that would equate to about 14%, my population is very skewed.
That equation demonstrates that clearly even basic proportions and algebra are not core American competencies.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:38 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Not even in USA, where you can open a page and give the names of undercover officers of the law and informants..
Iván |
Yes you can. If you obtain the information legally, you are free to spread that information. The person who illegally leaked it can be charged, but not a third person who merely spreads the information. |
This are your laws, you have to live with them.
Iván |
Yes I do? What's your point?
You said something that was false, so I corrected you.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You would have to take (# of illiterate people in world - # of illiterate people in US) / (# of people in world - # of people in US). You could then compare those two rates.
Your analysis is meaningless.
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Are you in acid? |
No, but I am a trained statistician so I know how to avoid improper inferences.
You are not, and clearly you are unaware that you're even using a faulty line of reasoning.This isn't surprising. Most people are not and a confusion of this time is responsible for much of our junk science. Lawyers are particularly notorious for using faulty statistical reasoning.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:42 |
Negoba wrote:
Llama, I have met many people who can't read. I see approx 20 new patients a week. 2-3 require assistance to fill out a basic form asking for name and address. Though that would equate to about 14%, my population is very skewed.
That equation demonstrates that clearly even basic proportions and algebra are not core American competencies.
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Most surely your population will not reach those levels Negoba, but the statistics also say that 60% of inmates are illiterate (functional) and in counties like Jefferson in Missisipi illiteracy reaches 30% of the populatiobn, this of course balances with others in which is virtually 0%.
The situatuion is frightening, and people saying they believe the CIA instead of the Department of Education and the NAAL are simply closing their eyes to a reality.
Iván
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:44 |
We should definitely trust the incredibly credible geocities 1995 style illiteracy digest site over the CIA factbook.
Yes I the libertarian just trusted the CIA over something else.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:46 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You would have to take (# of illiterate people in world - # of illiterate people in US) / (# of people in world - # of people in US). You could then compare those two rates.
Your analysis is meaningless.
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Are you in acid? |
No, but I am a trained statistician so I know how to avoid improper inferences.
You are not, and clearly you are unaware that you're even using a faulty line of reasoning.This isn't surprising. Most people are not and a confusion of this time is responsible for much of our junk science. Lawyers are particularly notorious for using faulty statistical reasoning. |
So. comparing the number of illiterates in USA ves the nuymber of illiterates in the whole world will give you any information better than vcomparing the percentage of illiterates in USA vs the percentage of illiterates in other countries?
Luckily the proffessional who makes the statistics for us has a different perspective.
Iván
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:47 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You would have to take (# of illiterate people in world - # of illiterate people in US) / (# of people in world - # of people in US). You could then compare those two rates.
Your analysis is meaningless.
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Are you in acid? |
No, but I am a trained statistician so I know how to avoid improper inferences.
You are not, and clearly you are unaware that you're even using a faulty line of reasoning.This isn't surprising. Most people are not and a confusion of this time is responsible for much of our junk science. Lawyers are particularly notorious for using faulty statistical reasoning. |
So. comparing the number of illiterates in USA ves the nuymber of illiterates in the whole world will give you any information better than vcomparing the percentage of illiterates in USA vs the percentage of illiterates in other countries?
Luckily the proffessional who makes the statistics for us has a different perspective.
Iván |
Yes Ivan that's what I'm telling you. The way you remain so pompous in the face of ignorance is very humorous though please keep going on.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - September 15 2010 at 12:48
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:51 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
We should definitely trust the incredibly credible geocities 1995 style illiteracy digest site over the CIA factbook.
Yes I the libertarian just trusted the CIA over something else. |
So
- The National Center for Education Statistics
- USA Department of Education
- NAAL (National Assessment of Adult Literacy
With information gathered in 2003 are geocities style digest
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 15 2010 at 12:54
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:51 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You would have to take (# of illiterate people in world - # of illiterate people in US) / (# of people in world - # of people in US). You could then compare those two rates.
Your analysis is meaningless.
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Are you in acid? |
No, but I am a trained statistician so I know how to avoid improper inferences.
You are not, and clearly you are unaware that you're even using a faulty line of reasoning.This isn't surprising. Most people are not and a confusion of this time is responsible for much of our junk science. Lawyers are particularly notorious for using faulty statistical reasoning. |
Shields, if you would sometimes explain why you say things instead of just saying them and assuming we'll believe they're right just because you said them with sarcasm, it would really help advance your points. Otherwise, in this discussion at least, Ivan seems to be the one giving explanations and reasons, and you the one just saying "no you're wrong because I'm trained and mighty".
Again, you really have to work on those communication skills.... 
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:52 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You would have to take (# of illiterate people in world - # of illiterate people in US) / (# of people in world - # of people in US). You could then compare those two rates.
Your analysis is meaningless.
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Are you in acid? |
No, but I am a trained statistician so I know how to avoid improper inferences.
You are not, and clearly you are unaware that you're even using a faulty line of reasoning.This isn't surprising. Most people are not and a confusion of this time is responsible for much of our junk science. Lawyers are particularly notorious for using faulty statistical reasoning. |
So. comparing the number of illiterates in USA ves the nuymber of illiterates in the whole world will give you any information better than vcomparing the percentage of illiterates in USA vs the percentage of illiterates in other countries?
Luckily the proffessional who makes the statistics for us has a different perspective.
Iván |
Yes Ivan that's what I'm telling you.
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WHY. EXPLAIN.
(please...)
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 13:01 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
We should definitely trust the incredibly credible geocities 1995 style illiteracy digest site over the CIA factbook.
Yes I the libertarian just trusted the CIA over something else. |
So
- The National Center for Education Statistics
- USA Department of Education
- NAAL (National Assessment of Adult Literacy
With information gathered in 2003 are geocities style digest
Iván |
Read my post.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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