On the burning of books ...
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Topic: On the burning of books ...
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Subject: On the burning of books ...
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 02:39
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Have a look at this "controversial" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4XJQO3qol8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4XJQO3qol8 I agree 100% ... what's the big deal? Why should anyone be offended - and isn't it kind of ironic that before the announced burning of the Qur'an books by Terry Jones we see Islamists protesting in the streets, burning American flags in the process?  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Replies:
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 02:48
| I was watching CNN en Espanhol and they were quoting tweets. Christ, why am I admitting this? Anyway, one of them quoted some saying that went "as I fought my enemy, I became my enemy." So yeah, burn Korans and then tell me just how exactly you differ from the flag-burners. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 02:51
Exactly. EDIT: But the question is: Are both equally bad and horrible, or are both equally unimportant and pointless. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 02:57
 "DON'T BURN OUR BOOK ... OR ELSE!" |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:03
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How many ardent followers are willing to die for [x] because [x] is the greatest thing ever while [y] is the work of the devil? Pretty stupid. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:23
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^ Sure - and neither x nor y have any solid evidence. But this is kind of leading back into the religious debate. While I agree with you, the other point that I'm trying to make here in a sort of clandestine way is that destroying symbols of belief is a silly and pointless thing to do. Well, at least when you destroy copies of symbols that you own - destroying someone else's property (or important property in the public domain) is a completely different issue.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:24
| Those who start by burning books will end up by burning bodies. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:25
| ^ I guess that depends on their motivation for burning the books. |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:29
| Well, let the lessons of history be the harshest critic of all. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:31
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Any Colour You Like wrote:Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:32
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Symbols of religious and national power simply act as a platform for a given group of people to stand up and say they're swell while others are lame. Attacking those symbols subverts the ego-boost granted by the colourful rag or the noodly textbook. Suddenly, Islam/America aren't so hot. It all boils down to inter-group dynamics which, in turn, are generally pretty stupid. Groups blow. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:32
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^^^ If you're referring to what I think you're referring to, it wasn't just the burning of books, but it was done for very specific reasons and it wasn't like people were burning their own copies of books, but books which represented certain ideologies and philosophies were forcefully taken from their owners and then burnt.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:37
I know you know what I'm referring to. As Walter said, group dynamics and social herding blow. Burning books is yet more nonsense that history will ultimately prove to be a folly of modern humanity. I honestly wish to be alive in 1000 years to see how our children view our utter collective stupidity and ignorance. |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:37
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Theft is theft, no matter how you dice it, slice it or set it ablaze. This makes me wonder... where do people get those flags they burn? I doubt they steal them from the American consulate. They might just be cheap 'made in China' things. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:42
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So we're all f**king stupid. I won't disagree. The Amazing God Damn Atheist maybe a bit moreso That video didn't say anything mind blowing really I don't disagree but, well yeah what a pointless video. Not one word he said was anything interesting or new See yall |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:43
http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=3669 - Everything is made in China .
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:43
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The video makes a good point. But you cannot draw the line there, radicals from anywhere will take it much further. Just watch some ' necklacing' scenes from South Africa from the 80's/90's to get an idea. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 03:47
Just as I suspected: cheap junk |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 04:10
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"Books are burning In the main square, and I saw there The first eating the text Books are burning In the still air And you know where they burn books People are next" XTC ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Deleuze
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 08:28
this guy is a must ahahah rationalist, i love it ------------- 
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Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 09:47
I was somewhat provoked by that, and I completely disagree. I can't believe he fails to understand (the substantial) difference between burning books and burning other symbols (eg. flags). It's true that flags and books both are symbols, but they differ in many aspects. The Koran is both a symbol of Islam but in a more general sense it's also a symbol of knowledge, wisdom, history, culture etc. (a symbolic feature it shares with books in general). Besides the symbolic content, a book also has 'real' content. When you burn the Koran, you perform the act of burning a symbol of Islam, but you also inevitably perform the act of burning a book - which evokes nauseating historical memories. It's an immensely stupid thing to do. A flag has merely symbolic content (and - also the material it's made of) I oppose to burning both flags and books (of course), but I find burning a book is far worse than burning a flag. And, surely, it is a big deal. I also wonder what kind of world the guy in video seems to be living in. He chooses to ignore the consequences of the act and ascribe more importance to his failed conclusion that 'it's just a book - it's not a big deal'. It is not 'just a book' and it is a big deal. He also mixes fiction with reality in his South Park example and says "Matt Stone and Trey Parker were doing the exact same thing". That's just ridiculous. And apparently it's also more important to 'stand up' for the right for religious extremist to 'protest', despite the extreme provocative aspects of their so called 'protest'. It's completely out of place to make this an issue of freedom of speech, actions, protests, whatever. My sentiment is that "freedom of speech" is not beyond common decency, and that it's out of place to put it on a pedestal every time someone wishes to severely provoke and hurt other people. I'm not religious, but I don't think religion is intrinsically, and only, a bad thing and that it - at all cost - has to be fought and argued against - you mostly can't argue with religious people. There is enough room in this world for both religious and non-religious people. Peace.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 09:50
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It is just a book, and it's only a big deal if you make it one - that was the point. The burning of a book only "hurts" people who choose to be hurt by it. BTW: You only mentioned the Qur'an ... did you watch the video? |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 09:56
I got the point, that the Koran, Bible, and God Delusion got equal treatment.
Well, too late. It is a big deal.
Do you really think all Muslims at some point in their existence made a choice to be hurt by a book-burning event?
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 10:16
| ^ So freedom of speech ends whenever someone chooses to be insulted? |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 10:25
| Again - I don't think it makes sense to speak about 'choice'. Freedom of speech has limits, surely. It's misplaced to elevate it to an extend where it becomes legitimate to do harm, insult and severely provoke other people just for the sake of it. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 10:28
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^ I disagree. There is no harm in him burning some of his books and publishing a video of him doing that. If you think there is, please demonstrate the actual harm.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 10:30
| He's harmless. But he talks in favor of book-burning extremists and defend their right to protest... |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 11:26
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You don't think this right should be defended?
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 11:51
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Look freedom of speech is fine, but it has limits. If you're going to hurt someone's feelings, that's just not cool. If the government decides that you're gonna upset someone then like it should stop you because people have a right not to get insulted. I heard that this girl onetime killed herself because people made fun of her and like that's not right. So the government really knows best here and we should listen becasue they're just protecting us. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 11:59
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Yeah, impressive. Really shocking etc..thought provoking whatever..
Books may just be paper, but this is just lazy thinking. Some books are sacred to many people, and a percentage of those people are prepared to shed blood over the burning of them. Let's not shed blood. Let's not burn their books, lets just ignore them, and let them get on with what they believe in. Lets act when their blind misguided faith threatens us, but for the meantime, when you see a wasps nest, don't poke it with a sh*tty stick. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:02
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So to prevent a terrorist takeover of our country, which would result in a Sharia law dictatorship, we should restrict peoples rights so that they can't do the things with a Sharia law dictatorship would forbid. Makes sense. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:02
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^^^ So - you're saying that we should let the government decide in which cases freedom of speech should be granted? I'm not saying that it's necessarily a good thing to provoke or deliberately insult people. But I also think that it's impossible to impartially say which statements should be permitted, and which should be censored. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:07
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Thinning of the herd.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:15
I assume you meant to direct this towards Black. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:23
It's a tricky one, but this is not so much a case of exorcising ones right to free speech, it's do we allow people to deliberately incite hatred to the possible detriment of us all? He could have just started a campaign against the building of a mosque near the WTC site, but instead he chose to stage a provocative act against an entire religion, which could have led to US citizens - not just forces in Afghanistan - being exposed to violent reprisals, and possible terrorist attacks. In light of that he could be accessory to murder, maybe mass murder, and that is a crime however you choose to dress it up. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:31
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I assume you're talking about Terry Jones. I basically agree that his announcement to burn the Qur'ans was stupid beyond belief. But accessory to murder? Come on. The evil, morally wrong action in this story is that people would kill over such a statement. If your solution is to censor free speech so as to not provoke any terrorist attacks, the terrorists have already won. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:35
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It really annoys me when we are having the same discussion across multiple threads. :P There's a huge difference between burning a flag, The God Delusion, and a Quaran. Burning them to piss people off is stupid, but if you think people don't have the right to do so your position on freedom of expression frightens me.
Accessory to murder? How can he be held responsible for things other people do when he has never met them? Were the people at Columbine accessories to their own murders? That's a terrifying precedent you would be setting here.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 12:37
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^ Where's the difference? They're all symbols, and burning them is an extreme way to show your disagreement with what they stand for. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 13:29
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Today's Cyanide & Happiness: ">  Cyanide & Happiness @ - Explosm.net ------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 13:33
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^ Nice.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 13:41
Of course it's wrong that people would kill over such a statement, but he knows only too well that they would, and that is incitement imo. Hypothetical situation: You do something to provoke someone you KNOW is going to react violently towards someone else and kill them, then that is incitement - or arguably conspiracy to murder. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 14:13
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So - let's not promote the idea of racial equality anymore, because somewhere out there there may be extreme racists who would use any statements to that effect as an excuse for murder? Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense to me. Either you have freedom of speech or you haven't - there is no middle ground. This has nothing to do with whether you agree with the actual content or whether you think it's a good idea ... as soon as you let that enter the discussion, you negate the concept of free speech. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 14:27
| ^ Freedom of speech isn't absolute... wouldn't national security takes precedence over freedom of speech in Blacksword's example? |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 14:33
Indeed
I do. But this is not an issue of 'defending the right for freedom of expression' - it's an out of place digression. It's an issue of whether or not book burning is insignificant (no big deal) or not. Some seem to hold the belief that it really is. This belief is usually based on an (often oversimplified) sort-of logic. The fact that book burning historically has distasteful connotations, that this particular book, the Koran, has immense historical, cultural and also emotional value to millions of people tend to get very little attention. Thus the 'arguments' presented in the video don't work because they ignore so many aspects. The video communicates disrespect only to address the irrelevant (stupid) question of "what's the big deal about burning a book" and presents very narrow and contextless arguments in it's favour.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 14:38
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^^ I don't think so. In this example it would be a slippery slope that might lead to Sharia law. Suppose the government stepped in and actually prohibited people from burning the Qur'an. Next would be Islamists starting riots and killing people because someone criticizes their book - so not only burning it is prohibited, but also any verbal criticism. Next they start riots because stores are selling pork meat and alcohol, or because people eat at daytime during Ramadan. If this example sounds far fetched or ridiculous, then it's because in reality we don't let murderous mobs dictate legislation. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 14:45
------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 14:46
those who oppose to book burning is suddenly being accused of being dictated by some murderous mob? |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 16:45
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Being against the burning is not the same is saying we should stop the burning. If you're for stopping the burning, then you're for harnessing the power of a murderous mob. Then you're using the same sort of mentality that leads to those mobs. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 16:49
In this country they are known as lobbyists... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 19:48
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I guess it's too much to ask for people not to get their panties in a twist because someone they don't even know across the world is going to light some paper with ink on it on fire. Religious people getting angry at others treating their "sacred" stories as meaningless kindling? SHOCKING! ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 19:51
If someone chooses to react violently to someone's else's mere words or expression, that's on them. The moment you start putting limits on freedom of speech, you've opened the door for everyone to jump in and stifle it further and further. Why should religion or a sensitive person's feelings be so much more important than anything else? You want freedom, you have to support your fellow man's right to speak, even if you may not always agree with what the other guy is saying at the time. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 22:05
No, it's not a frickin conspiracy if the person being obnoxious doesn't want someone to kill anybody. You can't hold somebody responsible for the reactions of others.
Yes, but some symbols are stronger than others. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 23:36
A clumsy expression certainly but not one worthy of me rushing out to buy some kindling Seriously though, I think Mike's use of 'what they stand for' re symbols is at the heart of the issue here i.e. how can you reach an acceptable consensus of interpretation if the symbol(s) in question were created in a culture and context completely alien to our own ? Unequivocal statements endorsing the killing of individuals who are considered to have blasphemed scriptures is entirely another matter. I'm thinking of the fatwa declared on author Salman Rushdie here (which was as indefensible an action as those atrocities directed by someone like Charles Manson) ------------- 
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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 11 2010 at 23:46
At the surface level this seems reasonable but there are already clear limits on freedom of speech in most western democracies e.g. slander and defamation legislation has existed for a very long time indeed and there is in some European nations the legal concept of 'crimes of passion' - (think it's called somewhat unhelpfully 'temporary insanity' in the US?) which won't get you completely off the hook but carries a diminished penalty on account of mitigating factors of undue provocation etc. -------------
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 00:37
I think this is as dangerous a thought as any of the statements here about not being allowed to burn things being a restriction of freedom of speech. There are two things to consider. The first is that we are human beings who all have emotions and who respond to what it is that we see and experience. I think people tend to forget that a lot in these discussions. The second is the assumption that we should just be able to say anything we want. JLocke, I want to set you on fire and I think that everything you do is worthless. I think you are fat and ugly and have no value to society. Oh, don't react to that though, because it's just words, right? They have no weight or value. Obviously this is just said purely for example (I've never seen you nor do I know much about what you do  ), but if I came up to you and said those things meaningfully - well! That would be a completely different matter, wouldn't it? And sure, we are expected to keep hold on our emotions, but there are limits for every person, and it's best not to test those limits without a very good reason.Burning a Quran is not just setting ink and paper on fire. It is also not just disagreement. It's disrespectful! I think people forget that. When someone burns something that has meaning to you, it's better to think of it as a disagreement as a way to keep your emotions in check. But in reality it's disrespectful. And with the freedom of speech comes the responsibility to accept the response to what it is you say and do. I mean, sure, maybe to some of you burning a book is no big deal. But then why would you do it? To the people who burn the books, they are doing so for a reason, to send a clear and loud message to those who value the book. Trying to reduce it to paper and ink burning is being intentionally blind.
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 01:23
People will think I'm joking, but I'm being 100% serious here: f**k emotions. Is anybody here even arguing that burning a Quaran isn't disrespectful? I'm not sure why you went on that tangent. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 02:49
Yes. But only if you insist on making this generalization and ignoring motives and situations. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 03:19
No:
Sounds a lot like you want the government to arbitrarily decide where freedom of speech ends, or in which situations exceptions need to be made. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 03:28
That's totally irrelevant to me in this discussion.
If you say to me "you're an idiot" then that's perfectly fine and doesn't hurt anyone. I can call you an idiot back, or I can just ignore it, or make fun of you for descending to that level. However, when you threaten to hurt or even kill me, that is something entirely different.
f**k respect. Blasphemy is a victimless crime. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 03:31
I didn't forget about those morons. I intentionally left them out because it's them who need to change their attitude, not me. I agree with him - we must not give in to murderous mobs. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 04:48
How do you know that he doesn't want violence on the back of this action. Ok, it's possible he doesn't but lets be realistic about this. Unless he's had his head up his rear end for the last nine years, or has been living in a cave, he'll know full well how fragile and potentially explosive the relationship is between Islam and Christianity. What else would he hope to achieve by the burning of the sacred texts of this faith. In terms of accessory/conspiracy to murder, it would have to be down to a court, I guess to decide what his actual motivations were. From where I'm sitting those motivations are obvious. I'm surprised they're not others. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 04:53
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A few years ago there was a news story about a man in Sweden who got beaten up by some Muslims during Ramadan because he was eating in broad daylight. Would you say that the proper solution in order to prevent further violence would be to tell everyone to adhere to Muslim rules in order to not offend any other Muslims, or to speak out against Muslims applying their laws to Non-Muslims? Please tell me how this is any different from this situation.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 06:15
That post was intended as the most obviously sarcastic post I could have made. I guess you haven't seen much of the libertarian thread. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 06:19
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Perhaps they like, don't know like when you is, like messin' with their heads like bro
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Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 07:47
I never said religion and sensitive persons' feelings are more important than everything else, but they are aspects that I think need to be taken into account in an issue like this. Neither is 'freedom of expression' more important than everything else, as some seem to belive and in cases like this tend to use it as an exuse to insult other people. Freedom of expression has limits (in many countrys at least). In Denmark you are not allowed to utter racist or homophobic expressions - and that is legislation I support fully. I don't see how such limits threatens "my fellow mans right to speak" in a manner that ultimately threatens my or mankinds freedom. You have to have a very dark, distrustful and paranoid viewpoint to assume this to be the case. And to illustrate it with the usual slippery-slope 'sort-of' argument is just too speculative. I don't buy that - at all. I may be a tad too naive, but that suits me fine. Mostly it's a a derailing of the debate to make this an issue of 'freedom of expression'. It's not seriously treathened becuase some people think it's an immenesly stupid idea to burn books and work in favor of action not to be carried out.
I don't follow that way of thinking at all. It seems like you mean that people who gets offended, hurt, provoked, harmed etc. by some disrespectful action or utterance made an actual choice to be so. I really don't think so. It's merely a fact of the world that millions of Muslims will get seriously offended by an action of Koran burning and some foolish extremist will most likely act out their frustration in a violent manner. I would like to aviod an incident like this. To think that it's just their fault, that they could (if they were as enlightened as you) just have made another choice, is ignoring complicated socio-cultural facts of the world and ascribing too much importance to (your own) rational capacity, that somehow tells you that this is ultimately an issue of freedom of expression? I just don't understand..
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 07:59
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Am I the only person beginning to suspect that MrProgFreak actually is TheAmazingAtheist?
Anyway, both sides are right. Burning korans is offensive but it's also legal. What the koran burners are doing is entirely pointless and offensive but something being pointless and offensive doesn't make it a crime, otherwise the aforementioned South Park creators would've been in jail a long time ago. And of course, the notion that violent retaliation against the burners is somehow inevitable or justified is also nonsense.
Is it possible that koran burning could rile the burners up to commit more serious and actually illegal acts of Muslim persecution? Yes it is, which is why the police should attend all such events as observers, just as they do New Years Eve gatherings and so on where public disturbances are likely. But if all the people do is burn books and make angry speeches (which do not incite illegal acts) all they should do is watch. Even if they are not required to act, I think a police presence will dampen spirits and reduce the possibility of naughtiness and perhaps lower attendance.
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Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 09:20
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I've never seen a Muslim burning a copy of the Christian bible.
------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 10:05
Obviously sarcastic? You can't be certain that all viewers follow all threads all the time. IMO at least in serious topics adding an explicit " " to sarcastic posts is not a bad idea.------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 10:45
That's true, but I hate emoticons and even without any knowledge of my stance the diction and tone of it are clearly different than any post I write. And if people mistake sarcasm for reality it just adds to the humor. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 10:45
That's because they have a general respect for it. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 11:43
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You know, if burning books gets your rocks off, then go ahead and do it. Just get your permit. Right now we are in a season where this kind of crap can start a wildfire and if the local authorities say no to an outdoor spectacle of burning books, then too freakin' bad.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 13:48
I fail to see how this is irrelevant, when we are discussing something that is inflammatory to peoples emotions - especially given the context of the comment that I quoted before saying this. < ="utf-8">
This is what I'm getting at - the notion that it doesn't hurt anyone. Emotional damage is a lot harder to measure than physical damage but it is real. I'm not saying that we can't say mean things to each other, don't get me wrong. But I'm saying that to assume that words are just words and have no weight or value is completely ignorant of the fact that human beings are social creatures who thrive on the approval of their peers and shrivel in its absence. Furthermore, when you have a good idea what kind of reaction an act is likely to get before you do it (such as burning a Quran offending a lot of people and inciting some of them to violent action), just because you wouldn't react the same does not mean that you are completely innocent of the consequences of your actions. I repeat - with the freedom of speech comes the responsibility to accept the consequences. < ="utf-8">
You'll have to explain this one to me, I don't quite see your logic.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 14:03
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I don't understand how people can describe the Church as enemy of the culture and justifies the burn of ANY book
Then the Nazis were right, they protested against Jewish books, so they burned them.
HAVEN'T WE LEARN SOMETHING FROM HISTORY???????
First we burn books, then art that we find offensive, then symbols then people.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 14:30
It's irrelevant because the purpose of freedom of speech is not to prevent people from being offended on the emotional level.
In a society where there is true freedom of speech there would be no consequences. The very principle of "protected speech" is that people have the right to make such statements without having to fear negative consequences. The bottom line: If you live in a society which grants free speech and your religious beliefs are of a nature which results in you getting offended by the free speech of other persons - in order to never get offended you should either leave the country or isolate yourself from any communication.
I respect your right to practice any religion, to hold any belief, and to make any statement that is protected by free speech (e.g. it's not slander). The kind of respect that you're talking about I do not accept, since it would destroy the rights that I do respect, and which I think are vital to preserving freedom. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 14:33
I honestly think that this sarcasm thing is not working properly. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 14:49
The only way I can see where words can have no consequence is if they have no meaning. The freedom of speech does not equate to the freedom of responsibility for what it is that you say. Truthfully - I cannot understand this viewpoint at all. Consequences can be good or bad. Why say anything at all, if you don't want people to react? May as well stand on the corner spouting random words all day long. If that is what free speech is, then I don't want it. I don't want asshats running around saying offensive things about homosexuals, making racist comments, attacking religions, and spreading ignorance, because of the belief that they should be able to say so because their words have no meaning and have no consequences, positive or negative. This is an irresponsible approach to the way human beings should treat each other. I know you're not a Christian, and neither am I, but does not being a Christian mean that we should discard our compassion in the name of some idealized freedom that may never be met?
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Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 16:20
This. See my earlier posts. |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 16:21
No. History is depressing. Much better to just ignore all that junk. So like, burning books is not bad right? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 17:01
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Hegel said: "We learn from history that we never learn anything from history"
How truth sounds now!
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 17:04
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 17:11
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Far easier to ignore history. Otherwise how else would we think we could still sort out Afghanistan. ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 19:02
That post, I will say In Shield's defense, only could've fooled someone who just became a member of PA... (Maybe MikeEnRegalia would've picked it up... )On most accounts, I agree with Mike's view here. No book should be so holy and sacred that it can't be burnt... (Well, maybe cooking books... we'd be hopeless in a world without them...) ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 20:00
Then why can you protest when fundamentalist burn science books, for what the Churches did in the past or what the Nazis did when burned books?
I believe burning books because you don't agree with them is stupidity and ignorance.
Iván
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 20:30
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I may not agree with the reasons behind burning books... but even less do I agree with restricting the right to do so... -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 20:58
Then I ask:
Please Theo, burning books is the end of the rights you claim to deffend. Only totalitarian systems allow to burn books.
Iván
EDIT: You only need one book to give the first step for this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghANkWNG-r4&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghANkWNG-r4&feature=related
From Farenheit 451 based on a novel by Ray Bradbury -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:20
It's a far cry from burning a book to make a point that Muslims should not be so uptight to THE F**KING HOLOCAUST. You 100% miss the point that not all book burnings have the same intention. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:21
Quoting TheAmazingAtheist immediately should have made everybody disregarded everything written after. Just a little advice: he is the joke of the internet for being blantly biased and unwilling to have any conversation that doesn't revolve around the little world of his. About the burnings themselves, well, they are of an incredible bad taste, but so do are the "protests", if that is the name we can call them, of muslim residents in Europe against the own countries that are hosting them. Besides, the USA constitution does allow you to be this racist, as long as nobody is phisicaly hurt. -------------   
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:26
Burning a Koran for the reason of making a point that 1) our Constitution allows such freedom of expression and 2) that Muslims are getting upset about the dumbest things.... IS 100% VOID OF RACISM. There could be intensely racists reasons for burning a Koran, but most of the ones I've seen (except for that dumbass preacher recently) are not among them. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:30
I don't care about intentions in this case, you only need an excuse for ignorance and bigotry to win.
Today some will want to protest against Moslems and many will think is OK (I believe it's a disrespect to their beliefs), tomorrow others will protest against Christians, and burn Bibles, and they will see nothing happens, so Fundamentalist Christians will protest against anything not related with Creationism and burn all evolution material, and then against nudity,science,. politics and whatever you think is wrong..
George Santayana said: "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
Each time somebody burned books, things went wrong. Seems we are doomed.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:32
| I'm burning this thread |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:33
Racism is not something restricted to the artificial concept of "race", you know? If this happened here all people involved would have been arrested from 2 to 5 years, without any chance of leaving sooner. THis is one of the reasons why race violence is so apparent in the USA. -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:48
It does not matter what people burn. Go ahead and burn science books--you're only going to look like an idiot. Scientists aren't going to care. In my country we have freedom to do things that don't harm others. Book burning harms one thing: the book. Not the idea in the book, just a piece of paper with ink. If someone extrapolates from that act to hurt a Muslim, then they're punished. Anyone offended by an act someone else does TO A DAMN PIECE OF PAPER are allowed to be offended and burn books in reaction and yell and scream their faced blue, but they better not dare harm anyone. Apparently the weight of the responsibility not to give enough a sh*t about someone burning paper and ink and murder in retaliation is too much for some people to handle, so they outlaw burning books. Which is hilariously sad to me. Sad and pathetic. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:53
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Go ahead and burn this post. Now if you try to burn me....that's a different story. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:54
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Honestly I can't believe that any person with a bit of historical knowledge will justify burning a book, no matter it it's Koran, Bible, Torah or whatever religious or non religious text, burning books is wrong.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:54
No I actually don't know. If I burn a Koran that doesn't make me racist (or to be inclusive, anti-Muslim culture...whatever) unless I'm doing because I'm xenophobic or something like that. Then it could apply. A lot of the atheists who do it are thoughtful people who are liberal as all hell, but burn it because it is precisely the sort of thing people should get over. It's not hurting anyone, DEAL WITH IT, to all the horrendously offended Muslims protesting out there. Did they hurt your wittle feelings? Boo hoo. Sadface. :(
So in Brasil, if you burn a book it's 2-5 years in prison? Christ Almighty... ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Any Colour You Like
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 21:58
Brasil, be very afraid.
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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 22:00
It is not burning JUST a book. You know pretty damn well that this is not just burning a book. The whole media revolved around this and it became quite clear that it was more than a demonstration of philosophical disagreement. It is an active gesture in order to hurt people that are members of that religion. And North-Americans still wonder why people from the Middle-East hate them. You claim to be free, yet the own population do not allow other people to be free, think freely and to have a religion, free from social judgement. edit: I bet that if he was trying to burn Talmuds he would be arrested for racism and judged as if he was a neo-nazi and you know that damn well. Some people can't be MORE equal that others. edit 2: So, if those are acts of freedom of expression, why can't people still dress in white and burn crosses around? Same damn thing, with the exception that black people actually had numbers to fight back in the USA and to make that stop. Once again, that shows that this kind of "democracy" is nothing more that the dictatorship of the majority. -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 22:01
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This is one of the replies we are getting:
Correced thanks to Henry
But still I believe but is retarded!!!!!!!!
And they are proud:
Some will say I burn for the right reasons and they do it for wrong reasons, that's even more stupid, because if you allow one burn, you must allow all and for any reason.
We can't let stupity spread.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 22:08
maybe it is an active gesture to hurt the FEELINGS of Muslims. That's all a book burning might do. Hurt their feelings. Boo-f**king-hoo. I wonder if it's in their Constitution that their cultural feelings aren't allowed to be hurt. Because we're sure as hell allowed to do things that hurt others' feelings in our country. What kind of country has laws specifically in place that makes it a crime to hurt someone's feelings? Is that not crazy? And as far as your second paragraph let's be clear here; the day America bents over backwards not to hurt the feelings of people that demand we all treat their religion with respect is the day the simpering pansies win. I'm not a racist, and I am not anti-Muslim. I am against curving freedom of expression and speech just because some overly sensitive people who are not afraid to blow themselves up enough times to get certain unnamed governments to make insulting their beliefs illegal. There's a word for that: cowardice. Maybe I'm insensitive, but it's better than letting fear run amok. About your edits: "Arrested for racism." I genuinely laughed. You can't be arrested for a belief here, only an act. Also, burning a cross in the front yard of a black person is illegal (I'm supposing it is) because it's an act of intimidation. Also, it's not on the person's land. If the person wants to burn a cross on their own property and dress as a KKK member, I'm quite certain they're allowed to, barring any home owner's accommodation agreements or city ordinances. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: September 12 2010 at 22:15
If hurting feelings are so innofensive, psychological torture is allowed, I would guess. If that is so, bombing the Capitol, the independence Monument, Mt. Rushmore, the White house and the Lincoln Memorial is OK, right? They don't mean nothing but feelings after all. . . . -------------
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