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IVNORD 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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 Posted: June 20 2007 at 22:18 |
 Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Actually, the working class has evolved in the industrialized countries. It's long ceased to be proletariat and its new designation as the Middle class brings them ever closer to bourgeoisie . Isn't that progress though? having the working class evolving into middle class, even if they remain workers... I believe it will come to a Guatemalan coffee grower someday too
Funny, ever since Chamorro came to power, Nicaragua disappeared from headlines in the US. Who's in charge there today? Would you believe Ortega is has come back to power and he was elected this time....  Now he can buy his suits from Saks again when in NYC for a UN event
You seem to have lost your sleep over these speculators... Not that I am losing sleep over this issue (it'll take much more than that), but I believe speculation (and the whole stock market shebang) is one of the worst/evilest enemy of equal and fair trade. It is probably the worst aspect of capitalism. Aside from providing capital, stock markets are a legalized fraud. But so is the lottery, gambling to name a few similar ones. I'm not sure about its negative impact on fair trade though, you may be wrong here.
And emerging huge markets (India and China, but Russia as well) are changing this fact a bit and this creating tensions in the exporting countries as far as primary commodities are concerned, so unfortunately the US policies tend to be harder on the producer/grower than before. In big part, the emergence of new economies such as India, China and Russia and Brazil creates more competition and thus more pressure on the local grower. Which would normally evolve in a price increase since the demand cannot be met. To the contrary, they flood the market with cheaper commodities, undermining the price. Look what happened to oil in the 90's. And it is the case for ore and other mining products (which are huge international conglomerates), but strangely (but when you really think about it, it is not strange at all) not for the food products. Not true. In 96 the price of wheat shot up above $7, coffe above $3; meats are presently at 10-year highs, cocoa doubled from 99' levels. The price stay low as those brokers keep the stock artificially high by keeping the prices high. And Monsanto is forcing upon the growers their GMO plant seeds to be grown. And of course since the ability to produce valid seeds for next year has been genetically taken away, they'll have no choice to buy other seeds (same GMO deal). Everything is done to keep the farmers poor and dependant. THe same is true for American farmers. But it's capitalism. If you start paying them artificially high prices, all other prices will go up, we've discussed it.
THe farmer suffers from his inability to do anything else but plough. Sure he's kept uneducated, but so is the majority of the population in every country, just different levels of "uneducation," conveniently called "basic education." Those who want to succeed have to reach for higher education to better themselves.
Indeed, the speculation game has taken a US image (even if it is not just the US playing this game) >> Hence the WTC's bad image and some of those pictures of people dancing in the streets as a reaction after 9/11. Apparently no-one in the US has actually really wondered why the rejoycing and the deep^rooted causes, other than diosmissing it as primary anti-US anger. You confuse speculation and trade again. Those speculators are the scapegoats, it's a myth. BUt those dancing crowds don't know the difference anyway. Neither do they know why they hate the US. It's more of a tradition for them, the great satan bullsh*t, etc.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 21 2007 at 11:52 |
IVNORD wrote:
Isn't that progress though? having the working class evolving into middle class, even if they remain workers... I believe it will come to a Guatemalan coffee grower someday too. As discussed before, when? that's the injustice.
Would you believe Ortega is has come back to power and he was elected this time.... Now he can buy his suits from Saks again when in NYC for a UN event. I believe he still wear army clothes once in a while like Chavez or Fidel >> old habbits die hard
Aside from providing capital, stock markets are a legalized fraud.>> indeed to each system, its frauds! But so is the lottery, gambling to name a few similar ones. I'm not sure about its negative impact on fair trade though, you may be wrong here. Well all of the studies on fair trades indicates that the stock markets are the prime obstacle to it.
In big part, the emergence of new economies such as India, China and Russia and Brazil creates more competition and thus more pressure on the local grower. Which would normally evolve in a price increase since the demand cannot be met. To the contrary, they flood the market with cheaper commodities, undermining the price. Look what happened to oil in the 90's. Hang on!! let's not confuse China and Indian finished products flooding the western markets and basic crops from the third world
Comparing Guatemala pineapples or Ivorian coffees (they both produce both "commodities") with a finished products is a bit senseless. You can compare primary matters such as mining ores with fresh foods, but finished products could be compared with canned foods.
And it is the case for ore and other mining products (which are huge international conglomerates), but strangely (but when you really think about it, it is not strange at all) not for the food products. Not true. In 96 the price of wheat shot up above $7, coffee above $3; meats are presently at 10-year highs, cocoa doubled from 99' levels >> yes this price increase was thrown at the food distribution downwards the chain, but uphill, the farmer got close to Zilch. These price increases where imposed by the speculators diminishing their stock voluntarily to increase the prices. Maybe some of the prices were due to bad crops, but then again, the farmer doesn't touch the price increase, since he loses on the quantity.
Everything is done to keep the farmers poor and dependant. THe same is true for American farmers. But it's capitalism. Indeed, the US farmers are up poop's creek themselves.
If you start paying them artificially high prices, all other prices will go up, we've discussed it. >> not if you take the broker out of the chain or limit his margins >> but we've discussed this before
THe farmer suffers from his inability to do anything else but plough. Sure he's kept uneducated, but so is the majority of the population in every country, just different levels of "uneducation," conveniently called "basic education." Those who want to succeed have to reach for higher education to better themselves. >> well I wouldn't want the farmers to stop farming (agriculture is the backbone of all countries' economies. But allowing them to live a better life by educating them is a olution. Most new-generation farmers nowadays have post secondary diplomas in western countries >> it becomes increasingly difficult to plough and achieve high rendements with you donkey and ploughs.
Apparently no-one in the US has actually really wondered why the rejoycing and the deep-rooted causes, other than dismissing it as primary anti-US anger. BUt those dancing crowds don't know the difference anyway. Neither do they know why they hate the US. It's more of a tradition for them, the great satan bullsh*t, etc. >> there you go , you just did it you moron
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Forgotten Son
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1356
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Posted: June 21 2007 at 22:43 |
I can taste the rainbow 
IVNORD wrote:
That's a common mistake. The american people as well as the French working class benefit from it widely. Not as much as the oligarchy, but still quite substantially so. The same goes for Britain, Belguim, sweden and any other industrialized country.
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Is that why the gap between the extremely wealthy minority and the poor majority is increasing rapidly? Are you actually condoning Western support for ruthless dictatorships?
Edited by Forgotten Son - June 21 2007 at 22:44
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 22 2007 at 08:41 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
Isn't that progress though? having the working class evolving into middle class, even if they remain workers... I believe it will come to a Guatemalan coffee grower someday too. As discussed before, when? that's the injustice. For a few thousand years people lived like that. It's the latest trend when they began sharing a little bit with you and me. If they told your ancestor some 500 years ago that you, his distant descendant, will be able to read and write (like a monk of his times) he would have had a good laugh (I assume your ancestors were of poor origins to please you). It he was told that you will live like his sovereign, he would have died of luaghter. Now you can read and write because it's beneficial to the big money. It was unfair to all the previous generations, but the capital didn't need them educated. When the need to use the coffee grower as and engineer arises, a coffee-picking machine will be put in his place.
Aside from providing capital, stock markets are a legalized fraud.>> indeed to each system, its frauds! But so is the lottery, gambling to name a few similar ones. I'm not sure about its negative impact on fair trade though, you may be wrong here. Well all of the studies on fair trades indicates that the stock markets are the prime obstacle to it. If they are not some left-wing studies, I would love to see them.
Which would normally evolve in a price increase since the demand cannot be met. To the contrary, they flood the market with cheaper commodities, undermining the price. Look what happened to oil in the 90's. Hang on!! let's not confuse China and Indian finished products flooding the western markets and basic crops from the third world the word is "cheaper commodities"
Comparing Guatemala pineapples or Ivorian coffees (they both produce both "commodities" not sure about pineapples; Ivory Coast is a cocoa producer) with a finished products is a bit senseless. You can compare primary matters such as mining ores with fresh foods, but finished products could be compared with canned foods. THe emergence of Brasil as a second larges producer of soy beans resulted in significant drop in prices and was a heavy blow to US farmers. Increased Russian mining undercut metal prices for the past 15 years. Oil pumping in the late 90's left Venezuela nearly bancrupt as the prices dropped to $10 bbl.
And it is the case for ore and other mining products (which are huge international conglomerates), but strangely (but when you really think about it, it is not strange at all) not for the food products. Not true. In 96 the price of wheat shot up above $7, coffee above $3; meats are presently at 10-year highs, cocoa doubled from 99' levels >> yes this price increase was thrown at the food distribution downwards the chain, but uphill, the farmer got close to Zilch. These price increases where imposed by the speculators diminishing their stock voluntarily to increase the prices. Maybe some of the prices were due to bad crops, but then again, the farmer doesn't touch the price increase, since he loses on the quantity. Actually, American farmers get a pretty big chunk of the price increase, I don't know exact numbers, but they participate in the game.
Everything is done to keep the farmers poor and dependant. THe same is true for American farmers. But it's capitalism. Indeed, the US farmers are up poop's creek themselves. Every social group is kept within its educational boundaries artificially as the economy(the capital) dictates. On the other hand, a farmer doesn't need to be an expert in philosophy to work the field.
THe farmer suffers from his inability to do anything else but plough. Sure he's kept uneducated, but so is the majority of the population in every country, just different levels of "uneducation," conveniently called "basic education." Those who want to succeed have to reach for higher education to better themselves. >> well I wouldn't want the farmers to stop farming (agriculture is the backbone of all countries' economies. But allowing them to live a better life by educating them is a olution. Most new-generation farmers nowadays have post secondary diplomas in western countries >> it becomes increasingly difficult to plough and achieve high rendements with you donkey and ploughs. In the US they proviude "basic education" so a person can read and write, but sometimes they are unable to understand whar they read. So it's the goal of the developer to create a user-friendly equpment. In more affluent communities the public education system works a bit better as they can afford better teachers, computers, etc. It's a shame as lots of human talent has no chance to develop, but it works for das Kapital.
Apparently no-one in the US has actually really wondered why the rejoycing and the deep-rooted causes, other than dismissing it as primary anti-US anger. BUt those dancing crowds don't know the difference anyway. Neither do they know why they hate the US. It's more of a tradition for them, the great satan bullsh*t, etc. >> there you go , you just did it you moron That's exactly the reaction I expected. Forget about the deep-rooted causes. You could hardly argue that today those people run on blind hatred most of the time.
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Dont' you think we pretty much monopolized this thread? We can start a separate one. I'm wondering if the guys in Venezuela are ok.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 22 2007 at 09:00 |
Forgotten Son wrote:
I can taste the rainbow
IVNORD wrote:
That's a common mistake. The american people as well as the French working class benefit from it widely. Not as much as the oligarchy, but still quite substantially so. The same goes for Britain, Belguim, sweden and any other industrialized country.
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Is that why the gap between the extremely wealthy minority and the poor majority is increasing rapidly?
Are you actually condoning Western support for ruthless dictatorships?
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Are you talking the wealthy majority/poor minority in global terms? like Holland vs. Beliz? Because there's hardly a poor majority in developed countries.
As per your straight question, neither my condonation nor my condemnation make any difference. There will always be the rich and the poor, or the richer and the poorer ones. I accept it as a fact of life and thus condone it passively. You may scream and yell about it, but it's unlikely that you would give up all the niceties of life that are available to you because Britain has collected (on your behalf too) immense treasures from its colonies for centuries and rips off undeveloped countries today by supporting those dictatorships. So in a way you condone it too. Your protests are nothing more than reconciling your conscience with your way of life, a soothing cream on your feeling of guilt. There's nothing you can do.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20414
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Posted: June 22 2007 at 10:35 |
IVNORD wrote:
For a few thousand years people lived like that. It's the latest trend when they began sharing a little bit with you and me. If they told your ancestor some 500 years ago that you, his distant descendant, will be able to read and write (like a monk of his times) he would have had a good laugh (I assume your ancestors were of poor origins to please you) >> no for the last 200 years, we were middle class I have ancestors as civil judges, one senator in 1875, some forge masters (steel works) some banana growers (in Colombia) etc... I am not leftist from the result of being on the bootom rung of the ladder , but by conviction.
It he was told that you will live like his sovereign, he would have died of luaghter. Now you can read and write because it's beneficial to the big money. It was unfair to all the previous generations, but the capital didn't need them educated. When the need to use the coffee grower as and engineer arises, a coffee-picking machine will be put in his place.
Well all of the studies on fair trades indicates that the stock markets are the prime obstacle to it. If they are not some left-wing studies, I would love to see them. >> anything contradicting capitalism is automatically called leftist. But frankly I wouldn't have a clue where to look but in thoseleft-leanig organization sites
Which would normally evolve in a price increase since the demand cannot be met. To the contrary, they flood the market with cheaper commodities, undermining the price. Look what happened to oil in the 90's. Hang on!! let's not confuse China and Indian finished products flooding the western markets and basic crops from the third world the word is "cheaper commodities"
Comparing Guatemala pineapples or Ivorian coffees (they both produce both "commodities" not sure about pineapples; Ivory Coast is a cocoa producer >> you gotta taste an Ivorian pineapple (mind you, roughly 95% of the crop goes to France), this is pure heaven>> nothing to do with the DelMonte or Dole stuff. with a finished products is a bit senseless. You can compare primary matters such as mining ores with fresh foods, but finished products could be compared with canned foods. THe emergence of Brasil as a second larges producer of soy beans resulted in significant drop in prices and was a heavy blow to US farmers.
Increased Russian mining undercut metal prices for the past 15 years. Oil pumping in the late 90's left Venezuela nearly bancrupt as the prices dropped to $10 bbl. This is why certain metals are at the top of their prices, right. Copper has never been so expensive that nowadays the recuperation/recycling business is buying stolen wire spools and melting them down again. Most metal recyclers have become big money operations, because of the ore prices.
Maybe some of the prices were due to bad crops, but then again, the farmer doesn't touch the price increase, since he loses on the quantity. Actually, American farmers get a pretty big chunk of the price increase, I don't know exact numbers, but they participate in the game. >> if you say so, but then again this would prove the inequity of the system. Why should only advanced country farmers get a bigger share.
Every social group is kept within its educational boundaries artificially as the economy(the capital) dictates. On the other hand, a farmer doesn't need to be an expert in philosophy to work the field. No but he has to know how to balance the books to pay off this expensive machinery, buy the new seeds every year, since he cannot keep 1 or 2 % for next year's crop since they won't germinate anymore! I think you'd be surprised at how complicated farming has become nowadays including fully automated animals farms or mixing those chemical etc...
it becomes increasingly difficult to plough and achieve high rendements with you donkey and ploughs. In the US they proviude "basic education" so a person can read and write, but sometimes they are unable to understand whar they read. So it's the goal of the developer to create a user-friendly equipment. In more affluent communities the public education system works a bit better as they can afford better teachers, computers, >> see above, I think we're discussing the same issue twice.
Neither do they know why they hate the US. It's more of a tradition for them, the great satan bullsh*t, etc. >> there you go , you just did it you moron That's exactly the reaction I expected. Forget about the deep-rooted causes. You could hardly argue that today those people run on blind hatred most of the time. Being anti-US is not a capacity at birth, you know. As a child most kids love the US through the TV medium and as teenagers, most kids look up at US culture (even Rap). One BECOMES anti-US as a slow reflection process when he sees that the hardships he endures and the effort to remedy to it are constantly negated or crushed by Das Kapital and since the head of Das Maschine is obviously well-entrenched in those NY high-rises.....
Dont' you think we pretty much monopolized this thread? We can start a separate one. I'm wondering if the guys in Venezuela are ok. Well they've become completely resigned by our debate (where we can say whatever we choose on a Canadian music site) gliding past their everyday lives, which certainly is less enjoyable than ours. In my mind, the situaton of freedom of speech in Venezuela for most citizens is probably secondary than to put food on the table. |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: June 22 2007 at 11:51 |
Sean Trane wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
For a few thousand years people lived like that. It's the latest trend when they began sharing a little bit with you and me. If they told your ancestor some 500 years ago that you, his distant descendant, will be able to read and write (like a monk of his times) he would have had a good laugh (I assume your ancestors were of poor origins to please you) >> no for the last 200 years, we were middle class I have ancestors as civil judges, one senator in 1875, some forge masters (steel works) some banana growers (in Colombia) etc... I am not leftist from the result of being on the bootom rung of the ladder , but by conviction. So my flattery didn't work Your family provided you with enough spare time to philosophize and entertain your mind, and you became a leftists? your a spoiled brat.
Increased Russian mining undercut metal prices for the past 15 years. Oil pumping in the late 90's left Venezuela nearly bancrupt as the prices dropped to $10 bbl. This is why certain metals are at the top of their prices, right. Copper has never been so expensive that nowadays the recuperation/recycling business is buying stolen wire spools and melting them down again. Most metal recyclers have become big money operations, because of the ore prices. Shut up you scumbag. You know quite well the price of copper was at a multi-year low in 2001. The recent run-up in prices is the result of the falling dollar, i.e. inflation.
Maybe some of the prices were due to bad crops, but then again, the farmer doesn't touch the price increase, since he loses on the quantity. Actually, American farmers get a pretty big chunk of the price increase, I don't know exact numbers, but they participate in the game. >> if you say so, but then again this would prove the inequity of the system. Why should only advanced country farmers get a bigger share. Because they are in advanced countries.
Every social group is kept within its educational boundaries artificially as the economy(the capital) dictates. On the other hand, a farmer doesn't need to be an expert in philosophy to work the field. No but he has to know how to balance the books to pay off this expensive machinery, buy the new seeds every year, since he cannot keep 1 or 2 % for next year's crop since they won't germinate anymore! I think you'd be surprised at how complicated farming has become nowadays including fully automated animals farms or mixing those chemical etc... I wouldn't be surprised at all. As a matter of fact, that high-tech farming is managed by big corporations. Some of them have as much knowledge in agriculture as you and I but they hire proper personnel. You would be surprised to hear that your much-hated brokers own lots of those farms.
Neither do they know why they hate the US. It's more of a tradition for them, the great satan bullsh*t, etc. >> there you go , you just did it you moron That's exactly the reaction I expected. Forget about the deep-rooted causes. You could hardly argue that today those people run on blind hatred most of the time. Being anti-US is not a capacity at birth, you know. As a child most kids love the US through the TV medium and as teenagers, most kids look up at US culture (even Rap). Yeah sure! especially those Palestinian kids marching with wooden machine-guns and yelling anti-american slogans One BECOMES anti-US as a slow reflection process when he sees that the hardships he endures and the effort to remedy to it are constantly negated or crushed by Das Kapital and since the head of Das Maschine is obviously well-entrenched in those NY high-rises..... If they only knew how futile their effors are
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markosherrera
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2006
Location: World
Status: Offline
Points: 3252
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Posted: June 22 2007 at 19:33 |
Forgotten Son wrote:
I can taste the rainbow
IVNORD wrote:
That's a common mistake. The american people as well as the French working class benefit from it widely. Not as much as the oligarchy, but still quite substantially so. The same goes for Britain, Belguim, sweden and any other industrialized country.
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Is that why the gap between the extremely wealthy minority and the poor majority is increasing rapidly?
Are you actually condoning Western support for ruthless dictatorships?
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what kind of condon is used for that condoning?
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