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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss.

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dougmcauliffe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2021 at 13:50
^ The first 45 seconds are incredibly cool, and considerably heavy for the time as well. But after that it just drifts off into a void, and i've never been a fan of the vocals
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2021 at 14:30
I think you had to be a 12-16 yr old boy at the time this came out to have any really attachment to it. It does bring back many memories for me, including learning to play the solo as best as I did at 13 or 14. Musically there really isn't much there. And yes the vocals aren't the best, although it's hard to imagine what type of vocals would really make it better. I think I might listen to it about once every 5 years or so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2021 at 16:25
Sometimes I think prog rock started in the US, which is to say rock 'n roll's progression from blues-based dance music to something more:  Beach Boys, Zappa, the Dead, CSN, Hendrix, were all doing their own kind of progressive rock that, despite the influences that were passing between America and England, was independent and wholly domestic.   If one looks at the rock timeline and the music being made and recorded, it's clear that the US had it's own brand of Prog before, or perhaps separate from, the British article.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2021 at 18:06
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Sometimes I think prog rock started in the US, which is to say rock 'n roll's progression from blues-based dance music to something more:  Beach Boys, Zappa, the Dead, CSN, Hendrix, were all doing their own kind of progressive rock that, despite the influences that were passing between America and England, was independent and wholly domestic.   If one looks at the rock timeline and the music being made and recorded, it's clear that the US had it's own brand of Prog before, or perhaps separate from, the British article.


Also the Doors were doing some very out there things like "The End" as early as 1966 I believe. Also Joeseph Byrd and the Field Hippies are an often overlooked band as well as Love.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2021 at 23:38
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Unpopular opinion: In A Gadda Da Vida is boring as heck. xd
I'm not sure that your opinion is that unpopular.

Until now, I’d never heard the song - apart from its appearance in The Simpsons. It seems like the kind of song one might only really appreciate if one were stoned or drunk out of one’s skull. I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say boring as heck, but it’s probably not a song I’ll ever listen to again. Given the length, there’s surprisingly little happening. That alone could be boring, but I can also understand some people loving it. I enjoy Neil Young rambling on for half an hour or whatever on Psychedelic Pill, and I imagine a lot of people find that boring.


I only know the song from The Simpsons. I'd listen to that bit from the Songs in the Key Of Springfield CD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2021 at 23:39
Wait a minute. This sounds like rock AND/OR roll.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2021 at 05:13
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Unpopular opinion: In A Gadda Da Vida is boring as heck. xd
I'm not sure that your opinion is that unpopular.

Until now, I’d never heard the song - apart from its appearance in The Simpsons. It seems like the kind of song one might only really appreciate if one were stoned or drunk out of one’s skull. I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say boring as heck, but it’s probably not a song I’ll ever listen to again. Given the length, there’s surprisingly little happening. That alone could be boring, but I can also understand some people loving it. I enjoy Neil Young rambling on for half an hour or whatever on Psychedelic Pill, and I imagine a lot of people find that boring.

As an old timer who was a young man when the In-a-gadda-da-vida was first released, it was considered the bomb, but that's because it was the music of the times. It's hard to imagine now how rock music fit into the 60s zeitgeist, but it certainly did. Same deal with albums like Sgt. Pepper's. Classic albums that may not have been so welcomed had they been created and released at any other time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2021 at 13:28
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Sometimes I think prog rock started in the US, which is to say rock 'n roll's progression from blues-based dance music to something more:  Beach Boys, Zappa, the Dead, CSN, Hendrix, were all doing their own kind of progressive rock that, despite the influences that were passing between America and England, was independent and wholly domestic.   If one looks at the rock timeline and the music being made and recorded, it's clear that the US had it's own brand of Prog before, or perhaps separate from, the British article.
Also the Doors were doing some very out there things like "The End" as early as 1966 I believe. Also Joeseph Byrd and the Field Hippies are an often overlooked band as well as Love.

Santana, too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dellinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2021 at 20:33
I do love In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, and I wasn't there when it was released, though I did was in High School when I first heard it. Oh yeah, and put that song to your dogs, in the part of the screeching guitars, they have some fun reactions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2021 at 20:49
Just imagine all the experiments that were so ahead of their time that they never got recorded.

If rock and roll became popular in the mid-1950s, there must've been some jazz and classical artists who were hybridizing that far back but due to record labels probably never got anywhere.

Perhaps some long lost recordings will emerge to change history!

Given the cool archival material finally being released from the 1970s, i would never say never!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2021 at 23:00
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Just imagine all the experiments that were so ahead of their time that they never got recorded.

If rock and roll became popular in the mid-1950s, there must've been some jazz and classical artists who were hybridizing that far back but due to record labels probably never got anywhere.

Perhaps some long lost recordings will emerge to change history!

Given the cool archival material finally being released from the 1970s, i would never say never!

I think like this all the time; it's a fun thought experiment. 

Think of all the amazing technology that doesn't exist yet that you're living absolutely fine without, because of that fact, lol.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2021 at 15:30
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Unpopular opinion: In A Gadda Da Vida is boring as heck. xd
I'm not sure that your opinion is that unpopular.

Until now, I’d never heard the song - apart from its appearance in The Simpsons. It seems like the kind of song one might only really appreciate if one were stoned or drunk out of one’s skull. I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say boring as heck, but it’s probably not a song I’ll ever listen to again. Given the length, there’s surprisingly little happening. That alone could be boring, but I can also understand some people loving it. I enjoy Neil Young rambling on for half an hour or whatever on Psychedelic Pill, and I imagine a lot of people find that boring.

As an old timer who was a young man when the In-a-gadda-da-vida was first released, it was considered the bomb, but that's because it was the music of the times. It's hard to imagine now how rock music fit into the 60s zeitgeist, but it certainly did. Same deal with albums like Sgt. Pepper's. Classic albums that may not have been so welcomed had they been created and released at any other time.

Great track....loved it and still do , but too long imho.


Edited by dr wu23 - August 14 2021 at 15:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2021 at 16:09
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Unpopular opinion: In A Gadda Da Vida is boring as heck. xd
I'm not sure that your opinion is that unpopular.

Until now, I’d never heard the song - apart from its appearance in The Simpsons. It seems like the kind of song one might only really appreciate if one were stoned or drunk out of one’s skull. I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say boring as heck, but it’s probably not a song I’ll ever listen to again. Given the length, there’s surprisingly little happening. That alone could be boring, but I can also understand some people loving it. I enjoy Neil Young rambling on for half an hour or whatever on Psychedelic Pill, and I imagine a lot of people find that boring.

As an old timer who was a young man when the In-a-gadda-da-vida was first released, it was considered the bomb, but that's because it was the music of the times. It's hard to imagine now how rock music fit into the 60s zeitgeist, but it certainly did. Same deal with albums like Sgt. Pepper's. Classic albums that may not have been so welcomed had they been created and released at any other time.

Great track....loved it and still do , but too long imho.

I've always loved the song. And yes, the length of the song is predicated on being stoned -- the lengthier the song the better. Back when being stoned was fun, and not some socially abhorrent enormity.

Ummmm....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2021 at 17:44
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Just imagine all the experiments that were so ahead of their time that they never got recorded.

If rock and roll became popular in the mid-1950s, there must've been some jazz and classical artists who were hybridizing that far back but due to record labels probably never got anywhere.

Perhaps some long lost recordings will emerge to change history!

Given the cool archival material finally being released from the 1970s, i would never say never!

I think like this all the time; it's a fun thought experiment. 

Think of all the amazing technology that doesn't exist yet that you're living absolutely fine without, because of that fact, lol.


True but the reason i consider this possibility is that hidden gems continue to emerge from the vaults. Things that were too daring even for the early prog scene were recorded and ignored and are finally finding a home. This is particularly true from France for some reason.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2021 at 00:57
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.

Hi,

I always thought that a lot of it was the American Educational System ... the "arts" in America, simply does not have the incredible history that Europe has had for 500 years ... it's like American "arts" are nearly non-existent ... and were intentionally dropped out.

I suppose that in Literature, is the one area that survived very well going back past 200 years, and it has only been in the past 50 years that American Literature has been ignored due to the media fame about selling and such ... pulp garbage has won out since the media is owned by the same people posting the "results" of the sales!

I think, that in the end, this will end up being 2 completely different things ... it's really hard to compare some of the American Spirit (let's say Miles) ... to what the English did, which had a lot of "individuality", however, it was very clearly setup within a compositional design and setup ... and always fell into the usual rock thing of the opening theme returning in some form ... I have to listen to some of the Americans from the 50's that became huge in the 60's, but I don't remember them coming up with a "song" for mat, and specially the jazz at that time, and even a lot of the rock stuff out of SF. It wasn't about the "song" or the "composition" ... it was about the feel and the music ... 

As Jim says ... when the music is over ... and you know that has to be the feel ... or its not worth discussing.

FZ, is another story. I think that him having started as a bit of a satire, but being intelligent enough to recognize and learn music quickly, he was capable and able to do "more" with his material ... but no one says that there was "great music" in his first few albums ... later, there are so many albums that it's hard to determine. I consider FZ an anomaly ... in American music ... and STILL IS ... his work is not taken seriously except a few albums by (obviously!!!) rock fans!
I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.

I heavily disagree with any implication that the United States has no history of great art in all mediums.  The names may not be as well known as the European greats, but where there is civilization there is art, and where there is enough art some of it always turns out to be great (just as some of it turns out not to be). That said, there is a definite failing of so many schools in this country, enough that you could call the problem systematic, to recognize the vitality and necessity of a decent artistic education, instead focusing nearly all their efforts on the material which shows up in standardized tests.  Since art is inherently subjective, tests cannot be standardized, and without any art on those big exams school's don't see the value for money in teaching those subjects. Anymore in the US, if a child wants to be an artist, they will have to put in a lot of extra-curricular work to practice while they go through high school and take the necessary tests to get into college. Only at the university level can a student put all their efforts into what they really want to do, and even then only certain universities have decent arts programs.  Unless they're lucky enough to go to a good high school that values the pursuit of art as a career or at least has a helpful teacher or two in that area, it's fully up to the child to learn enough to find the college that suits them best by about the time they turn 18.  The system does not teach art as widely or as well as it should, and it never will as it's designed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2021 at 02:20
^ and ^^

You’re not actually disagreeing (heavily or otherwise) at all, as Pedro made no implication that the US has no history of great art in any medium. That is solely your inference, and I expect if you re-read what he has written, you’ll see that you and he are actually agreeing. (At least, that is my inference).

There has been US art and great US art (subjectivity put aside as much as possible) for as long as the US has been inhabited (let’s not forget Native American art). But for the Americans of European descent, a lot of that (Western) American art was either largely unknown and/or similar enough to the European artists to not be attractive to the average US citizen. (I know I a, grossly generalising here, but please bare with me!)

Andy Warhol’s pop art was a kick start for American art. Suddenly here was something identifiable and unmistakeable for anything other than being American. Andy Warhol’s prints infiltrated US homes in a way no other US artist had done before, and he is often erroneously considered the US’s first great artist, because of this. It was cool to have a piece of American art hanging on the wall in your house, because this art looked “American”. Warhol. But this is where Mike’s point kind of comes in. There are a myriad of works of art from various media that have either been forgotten, or were unknown, simply because they didn’t capture the spirit of the time. In recent years, more and more of these are being (re)discovered.

Andy Warhol did very little that was truly novel, but he did manage to capture the zeitgeist. He was the right person at the right time, and because of this he was absolutely a key figure in US prog (which, as per earlier posts on previous pages of this thread, already had some key proponents, that I guess may have been the US equivalent of proto-prog). Even something considered somewhat revolutionary like The Exploding Plastic Inevitable was actually nothing particularly new. There had been shows that integrated film, performance and music before. But again, Warhol was in the right place at the right time.

I think it’s worthwhile remembering that prog is a bit of a retrospective label, with it being used very rarely (if at all?) contemporaneously. And at the time, bands like the VU and the Stooges were routinely described as progressive, in the same way that UK bands we now know as prog were described as progressive. However the prog tag was largely put on only the progressive UK bands, and others around the world that sounded similar or were influenced by them, leaving the US progressive bands estranged by semantics and semiotics.

As for the Stooges, since someone will probably bring them up, they were mentioned earlier by me. But when people think of the Stooges, it is inevitable that people think of their recordings, which were not representative of what they wanted to sound like. John Cale has mused that the band might have had a completely different future had they been allowed to record the albums they wanted to, but their label would have never let them. They were a progressive band in the same way the VU were. Their biggest stated influences were Sun-Ra and Harry Partch. They wanted to call themselves the Psychedelic Stooges. Their live performances were improvisational and avant-garde. At every turn, the record company was saying no to what they wanted, and boxing them into something they considered more marketable. So maybe the debut Stooges album doesn’t sound prog, but it’s not the album they, or producer John Cale, wanted to make. Iggy was driven into a circle of drugs and depression, and the resulting second album is a mess that none of the band were interested in, and all have expressed dislike and disdain for. But even within these two albums that are more usually ascribed the punk label, there are still signs of the full on (US) prog that the Stooges were capable of.

Again, it’s as Mike says, sometimes something is simply not heard because at the time record companies weren’t willing to take a risk on something they considered too daring or out there. In the US, this worked against the prog bands in a way it did not in the UK. Because of the recognised great history of art in Europe, and because most of the UK prog bands drew on classical influences, as daring and different as they might have been, they were still recognisable as being part of the greater European art history. American prog was more idiosyncratic and avant-garde - and arguably more progressive because of that. But put aside the semantics, and I think it would be foolish to suggest that the US did not have its own prog scene. The bands and artists that made it up may not be recognised now as being prog, but that’s only a label. Take away the signifier, and the signified is what is is.

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