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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss.

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Topic: Early British Prog vs American. Discuss.
Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Early British Prog vs American. Discuss.
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 05:36

I've always been fascinted the way the two subgenres differed
with British prog going in a formal symphonic direction ala King Crimson, and American going in an avant garde direction ala Zappa and Beefheart. But why?









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Replies:
Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 05:40
The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.

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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 05:47
I didn't know there was such a thing as American prog until I "discovered" Kansas about ten years ago. Embarrassed


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 06:03
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.
Oh, I like that!

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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 06:14
This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Spaciousmind
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 06:26
As a progger in UK and Germany, I can say that Zappa, Beefheart, Canned Heat, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Edgar & Johnny Winter, Allman Brothers, Ted Nugent, BTO, Blue Oyster, Creedence, Grand Funk and quite a few more all made their way into your collection and were played right alongside with your British and German stuff.

I don't think we ever bothered too much about distinct segregations back then.


Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 06:48
I think the main reason is cultural. The influences in Europe seem, at least to me, to be more from a classic tradition that expands generations. In America, the top industrial country of that era, things were on a different platform. 


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 08:18
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.
A stretch or not, the point is that while the UK was basked in Piper At The Gates, Days Of Future Past, and ItCotCK, the US had The Beat Goes On by Vanilla Fudge, Freak Out! by the Mothers and the eponymous debut by The United States Of America. Symphonic/psych vs Avant/experimental/RIO.

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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 08:36
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
btw Happy The Man came out in '73....and I consider them more proggy than Kansas.


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 08:43
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
"...the point is that while the UK was basked in Piper At The Gates, Days Of Future Past, and ItCotCK, the US had The Beat Goes On by Vanilla Fudge, Freak Out! by the Mothers and the eponymous debut by The United States Of America. Symphonic/psych vs Avant/experimental/RIO."

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Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 09:53
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

Have to agree with you. Regardless of whether Zappa and Beefheart were around at the same time as the early British prog movement, they were never part of an equivalent early US prog movement. There was an early US prog movement, but it began a few years later, and that is perhaps a better point of comparison and contrast? 🤷🏻‍♂️



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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:04
Oh, this is fun. Does a few disparate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the disparate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

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Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:09
If nothing else you've prompted me to check out The United States Of America. Thumbs Up

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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:11
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

If nothing else you've prompted me to check out The United States Of America. Thumbs Up
Good for you. Experimental without the dated 60s psychedelic baggage. Unless you're high.

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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:18
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, this is fun. Does a few desperate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the desperate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

Er...I think you meant disparate....Wink
but at any rate, were those groups you cited attempting early prog rock or just also being  different ?
This whole thing about early prog again gets very murky.


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:20
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.

Hi,

I always thought that a lot of it was the American Educational System ... the "arts" in America, simply does not have the incredible history that Europe has had for 500 years ... it's like American "arts" are nearly non-existent ... and were intentionally dropped out.

I suppose that in Literature, is the one area that survived very well going back past 200 years, and it has only been in the past 50 years that American Literature has been ignored due to the media fame about selling and such ... pulp garbage has won out since the media is owned by the same people posting the "results" of the sales!

I think, that in the end, this will end up being 2 completely different things ... it's really hard to compare some of the American Spirit (let's say Miles) ... to what the English did, which had a lot of "individuality", however, it was very clearly setup within a compositional design and setup ... and always fell into the usual rock thing of the opening theme returning in some form ... I have to listen to some of the Americans from the 50's that became huge in the 60's, but I don't remember them coming up with a "song" for mat, and specially the jazz at that time, and even a lot of the rock stuff out of SF. It wasn't about the "song" or the "composition" ... it was about the feel and the music ... 

As Jim says ... when the music is over ... and you know that has to be the feel ... or its not worth discussing.

FZ, is another story. I think that him having started as a bit of a satire, but being intelligent enough to recognize and learn music quickly, he was capable and able to do "more" with his material ... but no one says that there was "great music" in his first few albums ... later, there are so many albums that it's hard to determine. I consider FZ an anomaly ... in American music ... and STILL IS ... his work is not taken seriously except a few albums by (obviously!!!) rock fans!


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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:25
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, this is fun. Does a few desperate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the desperate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

Er...I think you meant disparate....Wink
but at any rate, were those groups you cited attempting early prog rock or just also being  different ?
This whole thing about early prog again gets very murky.
Thanks, Doug. Because of my disability, I use a voice encoder for these posts. It doesn't always encode what you say, unfortunately. I can only go by what PA deems as prog or proto prog, and they're all listed here.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:33
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.

Hi,

I always thought that a lot of it was the American Educational System ... the "arts" in America, simply does not have the incredible history that Europe has had for 500 years ... it's like American "arts" are nearly non-existent ... and were intentionally dropped out.

I suppose that in Literature, is the one area that survived very well going back past 200 years, and it has only been in the past 50 years that American Literature has been ignored due to the media fame about selling and such ... pulp garbage has won out since the media is owned by the same people posting the "results" of the sales!

I think, that in the end, this will end up being 2 completely different things ... it's really hard to compare some of the American Spirit (let's say Miles) ... to what the English did, which had a lot of "individuality", however, it was very clearly setup within a compositional design and setup ... and always fell into the usual rock thing of the opening theme returning in some form ... I have to listen to some of the Americans from the 50's that became huge in the 60's, but I don't remember them coming up with a "song" for mat, and specially the jazz at that time, and even a lot of the rock stuff out of SF. It wasn't about the "song" or the "composition" ... it was about the feel and the music ... 

As Jim says ... when the music is over ... and you know that has to be the feel ... or its not worth discussing.

FZ, is another story. I think that him having started as a bit of a satire, but being intelligent enough to recognize and learn music quickly, he was capable and able to do "more" with his material ... but no one says that there was "great music" in his first few albums ... later, there are so many albums that it's hard to determine. I consider FZ an anomaly ... in American music ... and STILL IS ... his work is not taken seriously except a few albums by (obviously!!!) rock fans!
I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.

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Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, this is fun. Does a few disparate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the disparate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

 
I guess it depends what you think is disparate? It’s all subjective, and all depends on what measure you are judging how disparate or not either of the two scenes were. But I think there was an early US prog movement, that simply occurred a little later than the UK prog movement. The US prog movement perhaps doesn’t appear as much of a movement, purely because the progressive rock scene (for all that it was appreciated overseas), was a mainly Europe and especially British (and British Commonwealth) phenomenon. There are a number of reasons that have been given for why there was not as overt a movement in the US. Geographically, the smaller area of the UK allowed a lot more cross-pollination and appreciation, while the US bands pretty much remained in their own pockets. US musicians also tended to have a blues background, while Europeans were often more likely to be influenced by classical music. This can even be seen in the pre/proto prog of psychedelic music. There is often a distinct difference in sound and influence between UK and US psychedelia. The music industries were also quite different within the UK and US.

Regardless, I think there is a generally agreed upon (but by no means definite or inarguable) early Uk prog movement (from around 1969 to 1973?). The equivalent in the US is more from, say 1973-1977, with bands like Dixie Dregs, Happy the Man, Journey, Kansas, Starcastle, Styx, etc. You could call them disparate, but I’m not convinced they’re any more disparate than the big six of UK prog? 🤷🏻‍♂️

I don’t think there is really much crossover between the early UK and US prog scenes, with the latter more or less taking off once the former had already peaked.

For the record, the early NZ prog scene took place around the same time as the early US prog scene, but had a sound far more similar to the early UK prog scene! 😜




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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:06
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, this is fun. Does a few desperate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the desperate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

Er...I think you meant disparate....Wink
but at any rate, were those groups you cited attempting early prog rock or just also being  different ?
This whole thing about early prog again gets very murky.
Thanks, Doug. Because of my disability, I use a voice encoder for these posts. It doesn't always encode what you say, unfortunately. I can only go by what PA deems as prog or proto prog, and they're all listed here.

I'm on the same page for the most part but since when have you or I ever agreed with all the categories and bands here?  Wink
On the 'early prog style'...maybe the cool US bands were more influenced by blues rock and west coast styles and the Brit bands by classical music and European sounds....? ( I noticed nick said basically the same thing above.....)Smile


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:26
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

btw Happy The Man came out in '73....and I consider them more proggy than Kansas.

Judging by this quote from Wikipedia, Happy The Man is spiritually a European prog band, maybe why you perceive them as more proggy:

Guitarist Stanley Whitaker and bassist Rick Kennell first met in Germany in 1972. Whitaker, whose army officer father had left his native Missouri for Germany four years earlier, had formed Shady Grove, with fellow US expatriate, keyboardist David Bach, while Kennell had just been drafted and was stationed there, beginning a two-year stint in the army. The pair met when Kennell attended a Shady Grove gig in mid-1972, and discovering a shared love of British progressive rock, decided to form a band together.”


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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:26
@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?

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Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.

Zappa is far more analogous to Picasso than Rockwell. In any event, Rockwell isn’t taken seriously by the artistic establishment. But Jackson Pollack is.


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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:34
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
"...the point is that while the UK was basked in Piper At The Gates, Days Of Future Past, and ItCotCK, the US had The Beat Goes On by Vanilla Fudge, Freak Out! by the Mothers and the eponymous debut by The United States Of America. Symphonic/psych vs Avant/experimental/RIO."

I love the debut album by The United States of America too, even more so than the debut albums by England and U.K. Smile


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:35
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.


Zappa is far more analogous to Picasso than Rockwell. In any event, Rockwell isn’t taken seriously by the artistic establishment. But Jackson Pollack is.
yes, that was my point.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:48
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.


I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
"...the point is that while the UK was basked in Piper At The Gates, Days Of Future Past, and ItCotCK, the US had The Beat Goes On by Vanilla Fudge, Freak Out! by the Mothers and the eponymous debut by The United States Of America. Symphonic/psych vs Avant/experimental/RIO."


I love the debut album by The United States of America too, even more so than the debut albums by England and U.K. Smile
ha ha that made me laugh.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 12:00
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Oh, this is fun. Does a few disparate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the disparate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

 
I guess it depends what you think is disparate? It’s all subjective, and all depends on what measure you are judging how disparate or not either of the two scenes were. But I think there was an early US prog movement, that simply occurred a little later than the UK prog movement. The US prog movement perhaps doesn’t appear as much of a movement, purely because the progressive rock scene (for all that it was appreciated overseas), was a mainly Europe and especially British (and British Commonwealth) phenomenon. There are a number of reasons that have been given for why there was not as overt a movement in the US. Geographically, the smaller area of the UK allowed a lot more cross-pollination and appreciation, while the US bands pretty much remained in their own pockets. US musicians also tended to have a blues background, while Europeans were often more likely to be influenced by classical music. This can even be seen in the pre/proto prog of psychedelic music. There is often a distinct difference in sound and influence between UK and US psychedelia. The music industries were also quite different within the UK and US.

Regardless, I think there is a generally agreed upon (but by no means definite or inarguable) early Uk prog movement (from around 1969 to 1973?). The equivalent in the US is more from, say 1973-1977, with bands like Dixie Dregs, Happy the Man, Journey, Kansas, Starcastle, Styx, etc. You could call them disparate, but I’m not convinced they’re any more disparate than the big six of UK prog? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[COLOR=#202122" face="sans-serif]<span style="caret-color: rgb32, 33, 34; font-size: 15px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;]I don’t think there is really much crossover between the early UK and US prog scenes, with the latter more or less taking off once the former had already peaked.</span>[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202122" face="sans-serif]<span style="caret-color: rgb32, 33, 34; font-size: 15px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;]
</span>[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202122" face="sans-serif]<span style="caret-color: rgb32, 33, 34; font-size: 15px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;]For the record, the early NZ prog scene took place around the same time as the early US prog scene, but had a sound far more similar to the early UK prog scene! 😜</span>[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202122" face="sans-serif]<span style="caret-color: rgb32, 33, 34; font-size: 15px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;]
</span>[/COLOR]

Well, I'm of the school that holds that early US prog was indeed a movement by some, but not all, of the groups I mentioned that culminated with Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica in 1969, where it couldn't go any further.

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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 12:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?

Absolutely.....of course. But are we going to start that long road again about what is or isn't progressive?
Smile


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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 12:33
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?

Here, I think, is the problem. Because when you start to try and work out when what is experimental and or progressive is also considered prog, there are endless debates (as has been seen time and time and time again, year after year after year after year, on this forum). The seeds of prog in the UK and the US were very different. But there are generally bands that are agreed upon to be proto-prog. There are also bands that are agreed upon to have taken those proto-prog bands as an influence. Those bands tend to be part of a movement. Zappa and Beefheart were a movement only unto themselves, as has been pointed out already. They might be prog (and I don’t think anyone here has argued they are not), but they are not part of an early prog movement, to me. 

So the key here is movement, rather than prog. And this is where obviously another area where there a great deal of subjectivity can lead to great disagreement. At least three people have stated that what you consider to be the early US prog movement is not the same was what you consider it to be. There is no wrong or right answer, so all that is left is to discuss - which is what you asked us to do in your initial post. And, to be fair, it’s all been very civil discussion. I don’t think anyone has been rude or negative.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 12:44
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?


Here, I think, is the problem. Because when you start to try and work out when what is experimental and or progressive is also considered prog, there are endless debates (as has been seen time and time and time again, year after year after year after year, on this forum). The seeds of prog in the UK and the US were very different. But there are generally bands that are agreed upon to be proto-prog. There are also bands that are agreed upon to have taken those proto-prog bands as an influence. Those bands tend to be part of a movement. Zappa and Beefheart were a movement only unto themselves, as has been pointed out already. They might be prog (and I don’t think anyone here has argued they are not), but they are not part of an early prog movement, to me. 

So the key here is movement, rather than prog. And this is where obviously another area where there a great deal of subjectivity can lead to great disagreement. At least three people have stated that what you consider to be the early US prog movement is not the same was what you consider it to be. There is no wrong or right answer, so all that is left is to discuss - which is what you asked us to do in your initial post. And, to be fair, it’s all been very civil discussion. I don’t think anyone has been rude or negative.


With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having possibly used that logic.

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Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 13:14
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having used that logic.

The debates are far from over!  I’m not sure what kind of cognitive link you made to assume anyone cared about the presence of Mellotron either? In your mind, you are of course welcome to believe the debates are over, but the fact there are still debates about what is or is t prog on and off this forum pretty much says otherwise. They may be futile and pointless, but they still occur. I don’t actually care, because I’ve never cared about what is or isn’t prog - and I certainly don’t care about what is or isn’t in PA.

If it comes down to it, I don’t know that I really believe there were early prog movements in the UK or the US, because that implies some sort of kinship that didn’t really often exist. RIO was a movement, but prog? Not really. When I’ve stated above that I think there is a case to be made for there being early US prog and early US prog movements, that’s more because I’m going along with a general consensus- however accurate or inaccurate it might be.

Heck, I don’t even think prog is a genre. How can it be, when it spans across genres? Prog is meta-genre. You can have pop, some of which is prog and some of which is not. You can have folk, some of which is prog and some of which is not. You can have metal, some of which is prog and some of which is not. You can have jazz, some of which is prog, and some of which is not. You can have hip hop, some of which is prog, and some of which is not. You can take pretty much any genre, and find examples of prog within it.

A movement requires some degree of similarity and compatibility. It requires some point of comparison. That is why there are certain bands that are grouped together from the UK and the US. That is why those groups are often seen as the early movements. It’s easy, it’s pragmatic and it’s expedient. It doesn’t make it right.

Zappa and Beefheart may be both more prog and more progressive than the bands that are seen to be part of the early US prog movement, but they aren’t generally seen as being part of a movement. You want to do so, no one is going to argue with you. It’s your prerogative. I’ve said in almost every post there is no right answer. I don’t happen to like any of the bands in the early US prog movement at all. And I do very much like Zappa and Beefheart. So I’m not even arguing for my favourites here. In fact, the opposite - I’m suggesting the bands I don’t like are the movement.

With only a few exceptions, I’m not a great fan of symphonic prog except for its Italian form. I love a lot of RPI. But what I listen to most, in terms of PA, anyway, tends to be RIO/Avant/Zeuhl/Jazz Fusion. Any symphonic prog (apart from RPI) that I listen to tends to come from Crossover, Eclectic or Canterbury. I have no sympathies or affection for much of the early UK prog movement, and none for the early US prog movement, but that doesn’t mean I can’t recognise why people can generally agree on when those movements were. It doesn’t make them right. It doesn’t make you wrong. But I think it’s important to mention that, even if this is your post, and you asked the question, yours is not the only answer. The reason I stated that three people disagreed with you is because you seem to have dismissed any alternate reasoning to your own. 🤷🏻‍♂️




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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 13:38
A point of comparison can only exist if one is familiar with the area that we are discussing. When Nogbad, an avant collaborator, is new to one if the artists I stated then that indicates a lack of familiarity in order to make a comparison and that's probably true of many here. That doesn't mean that Nogbad is not an expert on Univers Zero, but just not familiar enough with the groups I've stated. And so it is. I'm not going to pine over his or any other opinions based on this unfamiliarity. Perhaps this thread will move some to explore the groups I mentioned and find something they like. Then this thread will have been worth the effort to me.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 14:05
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?


Here, I think, is the problem. Because when you start to try and work out when what is experimental and or progressive is also considered prog, there are endless debates (as has been seen time and time and time again, year after year after year after year, on this forum). The seeds of prog in the UK and the US were very different. But there are generally bands that are agreed upon to be proto-prog. There are also bands that are agreed upon to have taken those proto-prog bands as an influence. Those bands tend to be part of a movement. Zappa and Beefheart were a movement only unto themselves, as has been pointed out already. They might be prog (and I don’t think anyone here has argued they are not), but they are not part of an early prog movement, to me. 

So the key here is movement, rather than prog. And this is where obviously another area where there a great deal of subjectivity can lead to great disagreement. At least three people have stated that what you consider to be the early US prog movement is not the same was what you consider it to be. There is no wrong or right answer, so all that is left is to discuss - which is what you asked us to do in your initial post. And, to be fair, it’s all been very civil discussion. I don’t think anyone has been rude or negative.


With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief by some that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having possibly used that logic.


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Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 14:10
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A point of comparison can only exist if one is familiar with the area that we are discussing. When Nogbad, an avant collaborator, is new to one if the artists I stated then that indicates a lack of familiarity in order to make a comparison and that's probably true of many here. That doesn't mean that Nogbad is not an expert on Univers Zero, but just not familiar enough with the groups I've stated. And so it is. I'm not going to pine over his or any other opinions based on this unfamiliarity. Perhaps this thread will move some to explore the groups I mentioned and find something they like. Then this thread will have been worth the effort to me.

For sure! And that is definitely why I’m following it. My mind is not at all closed, and just because I haven’t found a lot of early US prog (apart from Zappa, Beefheart and all that good, good, jazz fusion) particularly to my taste, does not mean I am not open to trying some more of it. I am definitely well aware that US prog tends to be a quite big hole in my knowledge. I am more au fait with the US proto prog groups (eg Doors, Jefferson Airship, etc.), than with early US prog, “proper”.

One band you mentioned was, I think (I need to go back to check), Icarus. I’ve not heard of that band, so I will be giving them a listen. So your post has already been the effort to me. I do hope you haven’t found anything I’ve said rude or negative, because I definitely haven’t intended to be. I tend to enjoy your posts and comments, even if I don’t always agree with them.



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 14:14
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A point of comparison can only exist if one is familiar with the area that we are discussing. When Nogbad, an avant collaborator, is new to one if the artists I stated then that indicates a lack of familiarity in order to make a comparison and that's probably true of many here. That doesn't mean that Nogbad is not an expert on Univers Zero, but just not familiar enough with the groups I've stated. And so it is. I'm not going to pine over his or any other opinions based on this unfamiliarity. Perhaps this thread will move some to explore the groups I mentioned and find something they like. Then this thread will have been worth the effort to me.


For sure! And that is definitely why I’m following it. My mind is not at all closed, and just because I haven’t found a lot of early US prog (apart from Zappa, Beefheart and all that good, good, jazz fusion) particularly to my taste, does not mean I am not open to trying some more of it. I am definitely well aware that US prog tends to be a quite big hole in my knowledge. I am more au fait with the US proto prog groups (eg Doors, Jefferson Airship, etc.), than with early US prog, “proper”.

One band you mentioned was, I think (I need to go back to check), Icarus. I’ve not heard of that band, so I will be giving them a listen. So your post has already been the effort to me. I do hope you haven’t found anything I’ve said rude or negative, because I definitely haven’t intended to be. I tend to enjoy your posts and comments, even if I don’t always agree with them.

it's all good Nick. I'm the only rude member .here anyway.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 14:16
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A point of comparison can only exist if one is familiar with the area that we are discussing. When Nogbad, an avant collaborator, is new to one if the artists I stated then that indicates a lack of familiarity in order to make a comparison and that's probably true of many here. That doesn't mean that Nogbad is not an expert on Univers Zero, but just not familiar enough with the groups I've stated. And so it is. I'm not going to pine over his or any other opinions based on this unfamiliarity. Perhaps this thread will move some to explore the groups I mentioned and find something they like. Then this thread will have been worth the effort to me.


For sure! And that is definitely why I’m following it. My mind is not at all closed, and just because I haven’t found a lot of early US prog (apart from Zappa, Beefheart and all that good, good, jazz fusion) particularly to my taste, does not mean I am not open to trying some more of it. I am definitely well aware that US prog tends to be a quite big hole in my knowledge. I am more au fait with the US proto prog groups (eg Doors, Jefferson Airship, etc.), than with early US prog, “proper”.

One band you mentioned was, I think (I need to go back to check), Icarus. I’ve not heard of that band, so I will be giving them a listen. So your post has already been the effort to me. I do hope you haven’t found anything I’ve said rude or negative, because I definitely haven’t intended to be. I tend to enjoy your posts and comments, even if I don’t always agree with them.

It's all good Nick. I'm the only rude member here anyway.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 14:22
Oh, there were two prog bands named Icarus. One was British. Only one was listed here but I don't know which one. If it's the British band they were avant/RIO, I think.

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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, there were two prog bands named Icsarus. One was British. Only one was listed here but I don't know which one. If it's the British band they were avant/RIO, I think.

There was also a British Jazz-Rock band named Icarus who recorded a one-off album based on the Marvel comics superheroes before disappearing into the sun, and then to cause further confusion, there were two bands with the slightly different name of Ikarus - one was a Swiss Zeuhl!? band and the other was a Krautrock band.


Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:35
There is also an odd one out with Velvet Underground whos features very early on. WONDERFULL mix of US and UK influence within the band members origins and points of influence. With Nico joining inn on the debute one also got a German influence as well. So as an early band featuring an U.K originated member in John Cale of multi instrumentalist, art school, conservator education, core band unit from U.S and lyricis, beat poet influenced Lou Reed, and Christa Päffgen aka Nico.

I just mean to say that Velvet Underground ought to be brought into this very intriguing conversation

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:43
Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

There is also an odd one out with Velvet Underground whos features very early on. WONDERFULL mix of US and UK influence within the band members origins and points of influence. With Nico joining inn on the debute one also got a German influence as well. So as an early band featuring an U.K originated member in John Cale of multi instrumentalist, art school, conservator education, core band unit from U.S and lyricis, beat poet influenced Lou Reed, and Christa Päffgen aka Nico.

I just mean to say that Velvet Underground ought to be brought into this very intriguing conversation
Unfortunately, this forward looking band containing John Cale is not listed in PA but they were greatly influential. No doubt about that.

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Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:51
i love the VU, and much of what Reed and Cale released subsequently. They were a truly influential band, for sure. And definitely progressive in many ways, even if not often perceived as prog. They’re prog to me, but I completely get why others don’t agree, and therefore probably why they’re not listed here.

For a start, my favourite artist ever, Bowie, might never have headed off in the odd directions he did, had it not been for the VU.



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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:52
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

There is also an odd one out with Velvet Underground whos features very early on. WONDERFULL mix of US and UK influence within the band members origins and points of influence. With Nico joining inn on the debute one also got a German influence as well. So as an early band featuring an U.K originated member in John Cale of multi instrumentalist, art school, conservator education, core band unit from U.S and lyricis, beat poet influenced Lou Reed, and Christa Päffgen aka Nico.

I just mean to say that Velvet Underground ought to be brought into this very intriguing conversation
Unfortunately, this forward looking band containing John Cale is not listed in PA but they were greatly influential. No doubt about that.
John Cale is contained but never a fully controlled unit, a sharp musicaly eqiiped individual of severe tallent, Lou Reed whos words and mind envalluped New York and all its jazz and keen eyes on Edgar Rice Burroughs and hes friends writing, and Nico you got something completly new

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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:57
[/QUOTE] I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.[/QUOTE]

As a former college instructor in Humanities, which I describe as the history of the arts, I can say that many of my students were disappointed that there was so little about the United States. Abstract art of the 20th century was particularly difficult for them - they had no background which would help them understand what was going on. The only time I was successful in explaining why Picasso was so important was when I had access to a slide collection (this was before the internet) that showed how often he changed his style. None of his styles by themselves impressed the students, but the sheer creative vitality over the years did. This is somewhat akin to what Miles had achieved over his career. Of course, I had students who embraced it all, and understand modern and post-modern movements, but they were the minority.

As I see it, American rock music during the formative years of Prog was based on Blues, original rock 'n' roll, a little jazz, and folk from our side of the pond. The Brits were more versed in classical, bringing in the elements of rock and jazz into the mix. What we call Proto- and Prog- related were still heavily based on the Blues. I am writing of major trends here, and we can find exceptions to all of this.


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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"


Posted By: Spaciousmind
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 16:07
I don't know, this categorization started in later years where people have this big need to put everything into shoe boxes with a nice pretty label and then stack it all on shelves.

I don't know about the US, nor really England since I never came across one while I lived there.  But in Germany early/mid seventies you had some night clubs in different cities.  We had one in Osnabrueck and I remember going to another in Muenster and in Duesseldorf so I would guess there were a few across the country.  These night clubs only played Heavy Music and you could smell the pot as you walked in. These places were visited by all us long haired folks.   I was a non smoker back then so it would always hit me immediately (my disclaimer).  Good job that I was a non smoker back then as every so often once every couple of months the police would just raid the places because of the illegality of the smoking.  Well the one in the city I lived in, I spend many a Friday or Saturday night there until daylight hit you and you stumbled home to sleep the rest of that day.

In the UK when you say Night Club it was all disco.  In Germany mostly too, except for these niche places I just mentioned.

In these clubs they played Heavy Music and only Heavy Music and us hairy folks (which we all were back then) sat there got up and danced very occasionally (as much as you can dance to this stuff lol, more like shaking your long hair about), but mostly chatted and got drunk and walked over to the DJ to requests the next songs.  Since Germany was back then filled with a lot garrisons you had Americans and Brits depending what city it was and Germans all there. Mostly getting drunk and chillin to the music.

Anyway digressing... but the point is NO ONE gave a hoot if it was German, or British or American or what Genre it would be classified under today, the only criteria was it better be heavy and hit the spot.  Besides if it wasn't the DJ shelves did not carry it anyway.

So everything was played and pretty much equally regardless of what country made it.  Of course the most popular stuff was long pieces not these 3 minutes songs.

Nick




Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 16:10
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, there were two prog bands named Icsarus. One was British. Only one was listed here but I don't know which one. If it's the British band they were avant/RIO, I think.


There was also a British Jazz-Rock band named Icarus who recorded a one-off album based on the Marvel comics superheroes before disappearing into the sun, and then to cause further confusion, there were two bands with the slightly different name of Ikarus - one was a Swiss Zeuhl!? band and the other was a Krautrock band.
No wonder why the name came so easily to me. They're were hundreds of them.

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Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 16:56
I think there might be something to say about the US as a nexus for 20th c. classical music. I think for those rock musicians who did see themselves as part of the classical tradition, it was as part of a branch which consciously viewed neoclassical and neoromantic styles as outdated. They were more likely to embrace atonalism, musique concrete, extended techniques, spectralism, etc.

What made me think of it is the related group of Fluxus artists, who certainly were working in the 20th c. classical orbit, and the later no wave scene, which had crossovers with the avant garde classical scene (Glenn Branca and Theoretical Girls jump to mind).

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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: March 24 2021 at 23:43
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

I came in here to say Beefheart was already off the rails by 1969, and things were barely getting started lol.

Agreed on the fusion approach ala Davis. Well said! Clap


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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021


Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 04:03
Todd Rundgren's Utopia. Love that album. It's way better and more proggy than anything Happy the Man and Kansas ever did.

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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 04:59
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

As a progger in UK and Germany, I can say that Zappa, Beefheart, Canned Heat, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Edgar & Johnny Winter, Allman Brothers, Ted Nugent, BTO, Blue Oyster, Creedence, Grand Funk and quite a few more all made their way into your collection and were played right alongside with your British and German stuff.

I don't think we ever bothered too much about distinct segregations back then.


Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not.
I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it.

As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...

Originally posted by dr
 wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.


I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
btw Happy The Man came out in '73....and I consider them more proggy than Kansas.


Well even then, part of the jazz & prog fusion had also happened via Soft Machine and Nucleus (Canterbury in a wider sense) or Magma

Yup, in terms of "historical prog" (one could read this as "symphonic prog"), it evolved clearly from the UK and was aped very quickly in continental Europe . It seemed to take a longer time in Nortn Am (whether US or Canada). Sure there were "almost-pure prog" bands below & above the 49th parallel before 74, but it's not like they were hoarding airwaves or top 40 charts.

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having possibly used that logic.


Well, when the site was created, PA wanted to be retrospective (dare I say even revisionist?) and added a whole bunch of other artistes that didn't fit the mould that the late 90's progheads had casted in aprorpriating that then-dirty four-letter word called "Prog".
Basically to a lot of "progheads", in the late 90's and early 00's, "Prog" was 70's prog, neo-prog and 90's progmetal (Canterbury stuff was tolerated, but scared many because of the "jazz thing").
FTM, that's what PA was before it was bought by M@X and Proglucky. Our two québécois bought it from a guy down in Florida, and it was pretty restrictive (Gibraltar - GEPR - was also much that way, at the time)

TBH, a lot of those genres were added to PA either as an afterthought or a form of revisionism. In 2006, you wouldn't believe the arguments because JR/F was added, though there was much less opposition (none if memory serrves) from the psych/space-prog creation. Hell PA even created Prog-related and Proto-prog to accomodate all these groups not falling in the restruictive carcans of "Prog".

Other genres were added from the break-up of the fourre-tout Art Rock, others added since (Math & Post rock), etc...




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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:24
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

As a progger in UK and Germany, I can say that Zappa, Beefheart, Canned Heat, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Edgar & Johnny Winter, Allman Brothers, Ted Nugent, BTO, Blue Oyster, Creedence, Grand Funk and quite a few more all made their way into your collection and were played right alongside with your British and German stuff.

I don't think we ever bothered too much about distinct segregations back then.


Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not.
I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it.

As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...

Originally posted by dr
 wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.


I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
btw Happy The Man came out in '73....and I consider them more proggy than Kansas.


Well even then, part of the jazz & prog fusion had also happened via Soft Machine and Nucleus (Canterbury in a wider sense) or Magma

Yup, in terms of "historical prog" (one could read this as "symphonic prog"), it evolved clearly from the UK and was aped very quickly in continental Europe . It seemed to take a longer time in Nortn Am (whether US or Canada). Sure there were "almost-pure prog" bands below & above the 49th parallel before 74, but it's not like they were hoarding airwaves or top 40 charts.

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having possibly used that logic.


Well, when the site was created, PA wanted to be retrospective (dare I say even revisionist?) and added a whole bunch of other artistes that didn't fit the mould that the late 90's progheads had casted in aprorpriating that then-dirty four-letter word called "Prog".
Basically to a lot of "progheads", in the late 90's and early 00's, "Prog" was 70's prog, neo-prog and 90's progmetal (Canterbury stuff was tolerated, but scared many because of the "jazz thing").
FTM, that's what PA was before it was bought by M@X and Proglucky. Our two québécois bought it from a guy down in Florida, and it was pretty restrictive (Gibraltar - GEPR - was also much that way, at the time)

TBH, a lot of those genres were added to PA either as an afterthought or a form of revisionism. In 2006, you wouldn't believe the arguments because JR/F was added, though there was much less opposition (none if memory serrves) from the psych/space-prog creation. Hell PA even created Prog-related and Proto-prog to accomodate all these groups not falling in the restruictive carcans of "Prog".

Other genres were added from the break-up of the fourre-tout Art Rock, others added since (Math & Post rock), etc...


As far as classifications, I still maintain that the arguments are over. To what degree an artist is prog will be always be argued, but in the case of avant garde experimentalism, no such arguments should exist. An artist beating a bass drum while gargling is just as avant garde and experimental as an artist creating soundscapes with an oscillator. What's argued is how listenable each artist is.

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Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:34
Following up on my last reply about the avant garde as more of an influence in the US: More artists who jump to mind:

Terry Riley
LaMonte Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music
Henry Flynt’s avant garde hillbilly music
Annette Peacock


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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:35

The Beat Goes On (Vanilla Fudge album) coverart.jpg

Vanilla Fudge-The Beat Goes On 1968.

 
Studio Album, released in 1968

Songs / Tracks Listing

1. Sketch (3:01)
- Phase 1:
2. Intro: The Beat Goes On (1:59)
3. Variations On A Theme By Mozart (6:59) :
a) Divertimento No. 13 IN F Major
b) Old Black Joe (Traditional)
c) Don't Fence Me In
d) 12th Street Rag
e) In The Mood
f) Hound Dog
g) I Want To Hold Your Hand
h) I Feel Fine
i) Day Tripper
j) She Loves You
- Phase 2:
4. The Beat Goes On (1:38)
5. Beethoven: Fur Elise/Moonlight Sonata (6:37)
6. The Beat Goes On (1:07)
7. The Beast Goes On (1:03)
- Phase 3:
8. Voices In Time - Neville Chamberlain, Winston Churchill, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Harry S. Truman, John F. Kennedy And Other Voices (8:17)
- Phase 4:
9. The Beat Goes On (1:05)
10. Merchant (9:52) :
a) The Game Is Over: Vince
b) The Game Is Over: Tim
c) The Game Is Over: Carmine
d) The Game Is Over: Mark
-
11. The Beat Goes On (2:23)

Total Time: 44:01

One of the less successful but high profile efforts to jump on the avant bandwagon was this multi era musical retrospective form Vanilla Fudge in 1968, with a bizarre tape collage throw in for good measure. Listening to a Sonny and Cher song before it morphed into a classical piece by Beethoven, all done with heavy rock instrumentation, is most distressing, but hey, it was the 60s.



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Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:37
^ I’ll have to check the years for the artists I mentioned

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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:49
Peacock’s ‘I’m the One,’ 1972
Riley’s ‘In C,’ 1968
Riley’s ‘Rainbow in Curved Air,’ 1969
Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music was active in the 60’s
Flynt’s ‘Raga Electric,’ recorded 1963-71

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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:52
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Peacock’s ‘I’m the One,’ 1972
Riley’s ‘In C,’ 1968
Riley’s ‘Rainbow in Curved Air,’ 1969
Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music was active in the 60’s
Flynt’s ‘Raga Electric,’ recorded 1963-71
Omg, I haven't listened to Riley's "A Rainbow In Curved Air" in ages. It's stupendous! Thanks for reminding me. Smile

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Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 05:57
One of my favourite albums last year was a 2 disc version of In C. (Yes, two disc!)

https://rattle-records.bandcamp.com/album/in-c" rel="nofollow - https://rattle-records.bandcamp.com/album/in-c

(What I wrote about the album for TPA:

In C is, of course, the rather famous composition by Terry Riley that has likely never been played in the same way twice since its origin in 1964. A series of melodic fragments held together by “the pulse”, for an indefinite number of musicians to play. Riley suggests a group of 35, but here we have only David Harrow – and it works perfectly. In C is a minimalist piece after all, and it doesn’t get more minimal than being played by just one musician. The directions are fairly simple. Of the 53 phrases that make up C, any can be played (though they must be played in order), for an arbitrary length of time. Each player has control over which phrases they play, and for how long. In C thus has no set duration, and so can last for minutes or for hours.

I wasn’t entirely convinced I was going to enjoy listening to David Harrow’s In C in one go, as it effectively provides four different variations (two sides of a piece originally intended for 12” vinyl, a fast, and a slow version). But, just wow! Not only did I never get bored or tired of the music, but the final piece (the slow version) was the absolute highlight. Rather than lose interest, my attention grew toward the end of the album. I also particularly enjoyed the 12” Side B piece. It’s hard to describe how such a repetitive and patterned performance can be so affective, but rest assured it is. Given the slow version is 70-minutes long, it’s effectively an album in itself, and if it were the only performance offered, this release would still be well worth investing in. For me the additional 12” sides and fast version are merely icing on the cake. An absolute treat, and a great way to start Rattle’s Five-In-Five campaign! )




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Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:03
I think ‘In C’ is proto-prog in that it represents the opening of avant garde concepts to the possibility of their performance by rock musicians, in that ‘In C’ deliberately leaves undetermined its instrumentation. If I wanted to push this idea further I’d say ‘4’33”’ is an even earlier example.

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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: omphaloskepsis
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:14
Perhaps it partly comes down to speech and accents? 

To my ear, English, Irish, Welsh, and Scots accents seem more melodious than American accents. Maybe a lifetime of speaking melodic UK accents seeps into the music?  




Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:23
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think ‘In C’ is proto-prog in that it represents the opening of avant garde concepts to the possibility of their performance by rock musicians, in that ‘In C’ deliberately leaves undetermined its instrumentation. If I wanted to push this idea further I’d say ‘4’33”’ is an even earlier example.

If prog is an attitude not a genre, then In C and 4’33” are both prog compositions. Prog AF! 🤘🏻

Rattle (which released David Harrow’s In C last year) is a jazz and classical label, but much of the music is very progressive even if people might not think of it as prog. They’ve released so much wonderful music over the years, and much of it is prog in my eyes (or, rather, ears).



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Spaciousmind
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:27
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not.
I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it.

As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...

The problem is you can't ever discuss these artists and what was good about them without having to feel worried about being inappropriate, as you worry about someone jumping on you stating this don't fit here it belongs someplace else.  So what made these artist great and why did proggers listen to them as well?

It's a classic misrepresentation of true history as you see all the time in books, tv and internet.

If you wish to separate the US with Europe then perhaps the difference was as simple as heavy guitar centered progressiveness versus less heavy guitar centered progressiveness, it's probably not any more complicated than that.

Nick


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:32
*A* selection of classic American prog albums  from the Prog Line channel. Thumbs Up

5 stars 1976: ALBATROSS - Albatross (Symphonic Prog  United States) -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaBZNBUOPdk" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaBZNBUOPdk
5 stars 1980: ALSHIA - Alshia (Progressive Rock  United States) -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrioMKTbdng" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrioMKTbdng
5 stars 1980: ANOTHER WORLD PRODUCTION - The End of the Age (Progressive Rock  United States) -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cctfgc3VJE" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cctfgc3VJE
4 stars 1985: ARIEL - Perspectives (Jazz-Rock  United States) -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPb6SYUIFJg" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPb6SYUIFJg
4 stars 1981: ASHBY-OSTERMANN ALLIANCE - Ashby-Ostermann Alliance (Jazz-Rock  United States) -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaK_QJ2zxXg" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaK_QJ2zxXg
4 stars 1979: ASIA - Asia (Progressive Rock  United States) -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqHDFIKk4Ak" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqHDFIKk4Ak
4 stars 1981: ASTRE - Foresight (Symphonic Prog  United States) -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhp506ca84A" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhp506ca84A
4 stars 1984: AUDIO VISION - Images  (Eclectic Prog  United States)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsdL4qmxoHo" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsdL4qmxoHo
4 stars 1977: AURORA - Aurora  (Jazz-Rock  United States) -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJYZQ2wSh_w" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJYZQ2wSh_w
3 stars 1982: AURORA BOREALIS - Aurora Borealis with Mitch Dematoff (Jazz-Rock  United States) -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIcxoPjEqhQ" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIcxoPjEqhQ
4 stars 1976: AUSTIN ROBERTS & ADVENT - Eight Days (A Personal Journey) (Progressive Rock  United States)  -  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ-GO9VcYms" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ-GO9VcYms




Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:43
I brought this up in a proto-prog thread. Sounds like prog to me:  https://youtu.be/lscRNsyEzs4" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/lscRNsyEzs4

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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 06:53
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Peacock’s ‘I’m the One,’ 1972
Riley’s ‘In C,’ 1968
Riley’s ‘Rainbow in Curved Air,’ 1969
Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music was active in the 60’s
Flynt’s ‘Raga Electric,’ recorded 1963-71

I mentioned In C already (and my love for last year’s interpretation of it from David Harrow), but I thought I’d mention Annette Peacock, too. I came to her via Mick Ronson’s solo album, “Slaughter...” where he covered the title track of “I’m the One”, and his cover of “Love Me Tender” is definitely more a cover of Peacock’s version of the song from that same album, than Presley’s. Mick then went on to play on the next Peacock album. (And, of course, fellow Bowie musician, Mike Garson played on “I’m the One”.)

It was Bowie who brought me to Peacock; and to VU, Reed and Cale. It was Bowie who brought me to Van der Graff Generator. It was Bowie who brought me to Eno; and to King Crimson. He was my lead into a lot of prog, I guess....



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 07:01
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

*A* selection of classic American prog albums  from the Prog Line channel. Thumbs Up



Paul, please do not clutter up this excellent thread with a whole bunch of lists with youtube lists that have bugger all to do with the ongoing discussion.

Thank You.


-------------
Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 07:02
Originally posted by Spaciousmind Spaciousmind wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not.
I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it.

As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...

The problem is you can't ever discuss these artists and what was good about them without having to feel worried about being inappropriate, as you worry about someone jumping on you stating this don't fit here it belongs someplace else.  So what made these artist great and why did proggers listen to them as well?

It's a classic misrepresentation of true history as you see all the time in books, tv and internet.

Nick
 

You could take the problem in reverse.Smile

Post whatever thread iabout the XYZ band in the non-prog music discussion and 90% of the prog or not debate could disappear... and the 10% bitching left would be about why you didn't post it in the prog topics LOL


 


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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 07:10
I'm listening to A Rainbow in Curved Air right now with a good cigar and cup of coffee with a shot of Sambuca. Pure Bliss. Cuing up In C next.

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Posted By: Spaciousmind
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 07:15
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

You could take the problem in reverse.Smile

Post whatever thread iabout the XYZ band in the non-prog music discussion and 90% of the prog or not debate could disappear... and the 10% bitching left would be about why you didn't post it in the prog topics LOL


Lol, I might try that sometime!


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 07:19
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

*A* selection of classic American prog albums  from the Prog Line channel. Thumbs Up



Paul, please do not clutter up this excellent thread with a whole bunch of lists with youtube lists that have bugger all to do with the ongoing discussion.

Thank You.
In that case, I won't bother listing American Prog Line albums beginning with the letter "B" Big smile


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 09:10
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

*A* selection of classic American prog albums  from the Prog Line channel. Thumbs Up



Paul, please do not clutter up this excellent thread with a whole bunch of lists with youtube lists that have bugger all to do with the ongoing discussion.

Thank You.
In that case, I won't bother listing American Prog Line albums beginning with the letter "B" Big smile
ClapClapClap

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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 11:25
There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 12:50
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 13:10
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink


Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 14:12
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink

I'm the fifth one and I'm referring to that time period having more proggy prog not the start point, I also refer to RTF, WR, Miles Davis, BS&T before that. 

For the third one thats psycho paul so you're just lucky he didn't call Kansas neo.


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Ian

Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com

https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/


Posted By: nick_h_nz
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 14:14
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink

I have, and neither says there wasn’t US prog before Kansas..... 🙄



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https://tinyurl.com/nickhnz-tpa" rel="nofollow - Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 14:31
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink

I have, and neither says there wasn’t US prog before Kansas..... 🙄


To me fusion and jazz rock isn't necessarily the same as prog. I suppose it depends on where you want to draw the line though. 


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 14:35
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.


No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....



See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink


I'm the fifth one and I'm referring to that time period having more proggy prog not the start point, I also refer to RTF, WR, Miles Davis, BS&T before that. 

For the third one thats psycho paul so you're just lucky he didn't call Kansas neo.
I'm one of those crusty types that has a hard time associating jazz fusion with prog rock, (even though I like it) but if it be so, then American prog had been around a hell of a long time before the Brits started getting complicated.

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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 14:35
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink

I'm the fifth one and I'm referring to that time period having more proggy prog not the start point, I also refer to RTF, WR, Miles Davis, BS&T before that. 

For the third one thats psycho paul so you're just lucky he didn't call Kansas neo.
No, it's only Kansas' post-1970's albums that are neo-prog in my warped psycho mind. Big smile


Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 14:47
I think the problem with a lot of this bickering about Kansas is that you’re apparently looking for European-style prog in the US. If you won’t designate as prog anything except European-style prog, then you’re definitely not going to find anything before European prog bands broke out.

I’ve been attempting an alternative thesis where progressive rock took a different approach in the US, coming from a 20th cen. classical / avant garde perspective, rather than a neo-romantic, neo-classical perspective. I think it’s entirely plausible to do this, using Zappa and Beefheart as a starting point and working out from there.


-------------
“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 14:49
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think it’s entirely plausible to do this, using Zappa and Beefheart as a starting point and working out from there.

Not a chronological starting point, obviously, but a conceptual starting point. Zappa particularly is, I think, almost inarguably American prog.


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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello


Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 15:00
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There was definitely US prog before Kansas(first album 74)or Happy the Man(first released album in 77). There was Polyphony who had an ELP sounding album in 1971 called "without introduction." There were others also.

No one has said there wasn’t US prog before Kansas! 😄 I sincerely doubt there is a single person on this forum who believes US prog began with Kansas....


See the third and fifth posts in this thread. Wink

I'm the fifth one and I'm referring to that time period having more proggy prog not the start point, I also refer to RTF, WR, Miles Davis, BS&T before that. 

For the third one thats psycho paul so you're just lucky he didn't call Kansas neo.

You're lucky I don't flood your inbox with neo prog. LOL


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 15:06
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think the problem with a lot of this bickering about Kansas is that you’re apparently looking for European-style prog in the US. If you won’t designate as prog anything except European-style prog, then you’re definitely not going to find anything before European prog bands broke out.

I’ve been attempting an alternative thesis where progressive rock took a different approach in the US, coming from a 20th cen. classical / avant garde perspective, rather than a neo-romantic, neo-classical perspective. I think it’s entirely plausible to do this, using Zappa and Beefheart as a starting point and working out from there.


oh, that's a novel idea. But seriously, after Zappa and Beefheart what artists have you got?

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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 15:19
I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 15:23
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile
It was a rhetorical question Paul, as it was in reference to other avant artists aside from Zappa and BH that are considered to be prog.

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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 15:34
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile

So are you saying there aren't any or just that you haven't come across any? 


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 15:36
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile
It was a rhetorical question Paul, as it was in reference to other avant artists aside from Zappa and BH that are considered to be prog.

On the subject of avant artists, I listened to my very first RIO/Avant Prog album today by an American band called Cartoon, but the offbeat cranky music sounded a bit Looney Tunes to my ears. Tongue


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 15:45
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile

So are you saying there aren't any or just that you haven't come across any? 

I've only reached the letter "C" in the alphabet on Prog Line albums, so I still have a lot of listening to do yet. I've found a handful of American prog albums from 1976, but nothing earlier than that so far, but I'll keep you posted if I do come across any. Smile


Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 15:55
^ I like all of those psychedelic bands you mentioned and I have every CD album by Spooky Tooth, apart from the weird album they made with French "music concrete" artist Pierre Henry, which is the album most Spooky Tooth fans avoid and the album the band themselves wish they'd never made. Confused


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 16:18
Here's s list of early US prog groups off the top of my head Paul: Starcastle, Vindication, Mutha Goose, Maelstrom and Periscope. See if you find them.

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Posted By: Psychedelic Paul
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 16:41
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Here's s list of early US prog groups off the top of my head Paul: Starcastle, Vindication, Mutha Goose, Maelstrom and Periscope. See if you find them.

I haven't come across any albums by any of those bands you mentioned so far, but I'll keep my Periscope sighted for them. Smile

By the way, Steve, just in case you were wondering, I was replying to AFlowerKingCrimson in my previous post, but he deleted his post and sent me a private message instead, so it now appears as if I'm talking to myself, which wouldn't be the first time. Tongue


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 16:49
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Here's s list of early US prog groups off the top of my head Paul: Starcastle, Vindication, Mutha Goose, Maelstrom and Periscope. See if you find them.


I haven't come across any albums by any of those bands you mentioned so far, but I'll keep my Periscope sighted for them. Smile

By the way, Steve, just in case you were wondering, I was replying to AFlowerKingCrimson in my previous post, but he deleted his post and sent me a private message instead, so it now appears as if I'm talking to myself, which wouldn't be the first time. Tongue
I'm sure that a few are listed here. Or should be.

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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 16:58
Here's a list I sent to Paul that I initially posted here but deleted it. I'll post it again though. 

Touch- same (considered by some to be the first prog album) 1968

Orange Wedge (more hard rock or bluesy but proggish at times at least). Two albums(72 and 74).

Sweet Smoke (two albums) (the first one "just a poke" is from 1970 and the second from 1973).

Ram - Where? In conclusion (1972)

The Facedancers -same (1972)

Also the band Quill (sometimes called the Quill)put out one album in 1970 and actually played at wood stock but because they weren't in the movie they didn't get much recognition and broke up after one album. I think on youtube it's called just Quill. So type in that plus 1970. I think they were maybe more like proto prog but not bad. 

Finally there's Spooky Tooth(listed as proto prog on here)and Frank Zappa and the Mothers. Uncle Meat is prog imo. I'm not sure what I would call it. It's jazzy I suppose but not as much as Hot Rats(which I also like).

Spirit were another one who are sometimes considered either prog or proto prog.

Paul, I have heard some of that Pierre Henry/ Spooky Tooth on youtube. His sound effects don't really fit in with their music and it comes off sounding weird. I think I could get used to it though. 


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 17:04
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG]Here's s list of early US prog groups off the top of my head Paul: Starcastle, Vindication, Mutha Goose, Maelstrom and Periscope. See if you find them.


I haven't come across any albums by any of those bands you mentioned so far, but I'll keep my Periscope sighted for them. Smile

By the way, Steve, just in case you were wondering, I was replying to AFlowerKingCrimson in my previous post, but he deleted his post and sent me a private message instead, so it now appears as if I'm talking to myself, which wouldn't be the first time. Tongue
Opps duplicate post.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 17:17
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Here's a list I sent to Paul that I initially posted here but deleted it. I'll post it again though. 

<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Touch- same (considered by some to be the first prog album) 1968
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Orange Wedge (more hard rock or bluesy but proggish at times at least). Two albums(72 and 74).<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Sweet Smoke (two albums) (the first one "just a poke" is from 1970 and the second from 1973).<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Ram - Where? In conclusion (1972)<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">The Facedancers -same (1972)<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Also the band Quill (sometimes called the Quill)put out one album in 1970 and actually played at wood stock but because they weren't in the movie they didn't get much recognition and broke up after one album. I think on youtube it's called just Quill. So type in that plus 1970. I think they were maybe more like proto prog but not bad. <div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Finally there's Spooky Tooth(listed as proto prog on here)and Frank Zappa and the Mothers. Uncle Meat is prog imo. I'm not sure what I would call it. It's jazzy I suppose but not as much as Hot Rats(which I also like).<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Spirit were another one who are sometimes considered either prog or proto prog.<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Paul, I have heard some of that Pierre Henry/ Spooky Tooth on youtube. His sound effects don't really fit in with their music and it comes off sounding weird. I think I could get used to it though. 
I'm familiar with many of these but didn't know if they were proto prog or proggy hard rock, so I didn't mention them. Oh, Spooky Tooth are British, unless there's also a US band with that name.

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Posted By: Duddick
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 18:34
Spooky Tooth were British apart from Gary Wright?


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 18:56
Originally posted by Duddick Duddick wrote:

Spooky Tooth were British apart from Gary Wright?
Yup, Wright is a Jersey boy.

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Posted By: AFlowerKingCrimson
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 18:56
Yeah, not sure why I thought Spooky Tooth were from the US. Maybe they just sound american to me. Not sure.


Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 19:00
You must of heard "Dream Weaver" playing in your mind when you heard Spooky Tooth. I think Paul said they were American first in an earlier post.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 19:03
I think Spooky Tooth had 10 different guitarists and 10 different keyboard players.

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Posted By: Crane
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 19:58
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

oh, that's a novel idea. But seriously, after Zappa and Beefheart what artists have you got?

Rather the onus is on those in this forum who say that Zappa and Beefheart are so utterly unique, to explain where Zappa and Beefheart came from. That should help clear some things up. It seems unhelpful to me to view Zappa and Beefheart as complete outliers from everything else.


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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 25 2021 at 20:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think the problem with a lot of this bickering about Kansas is that you’re apparently looking for European-style prog in the US. If you won’t designate as prog anything except European-style prog, then you’re definitely not going to find anything before European prog bands broke out.

I’ve been attempting an alternative thesis where progressive rock took a different approach in the US, coming from a 20th cen. classical / avant garde perspective, rather than a neo-romantic, neo-classical perspective. I think it’s entirely plausible to do this, using Zappa and Beefheart as a starting point and working out from there.


oh, that's a novel idea. But seriously, after Zappa and Beefheart what artists have you got?

Residents is one other.  And that's it.  

I think a better split rather than avant garde v/s symphonic is fusion v/s symphonic.  That's the real reason American prog didn't quite take off in a big way even though prog was popular. The musicians who MIGHT have played prog headed to fusion and became a part of the broader jazz scene.  



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