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What is happening in Jerusalem?

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tszirmay View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 07:07
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Well, you are quite selective yourself in your history , mon ami. While the UN was under the "control" of colonial powers, it as nevertheless CLEARLY going through am entire post-war de-colonization process. Most European countries (except for Portugal) were contemplating their exit from colonialism, as it became untenable in view of the Nazi credo of world domination (or Lebensraum). Most countries are based on "land grabs", justified or not, successful or not. It's called human stupidity (endlessly maintaining some destructive policy) . Had Arafat and Rabin ,whilst shaking hands, moved closer to cooperating , the world would have been a different place today. Rabin was assassinated for his decision and the PA rejected further overtures. The land grab you refer to are the consequences of War not of the creation of the Israeli state . The declaration of independence in 1948 by Ben -Gurion clearly asks (pleads actually)  that the Arabs stay and help to create a two-part country. This is a written and taped speech, it is not propaganda or lies. The Who, When, Where and What of history are rarely challengeable. Its always the WHY that is problematic.  BTW, Waters is not a credible  source of anything, except music, as his tendency to be vulgar and rude is quite evident. 

Nothing is contradictory here with what I said. I even agree with everything you say here (except your cheap remark on Waters). That is why I'm talking about a "just solution". Arafat and Rabin were close, but now we are further away than ever.
My remark on Waters is not cheap, when you have one of the finest lyricists in modern times, constantly swearing in his video posts , it makes me wonder about his innate credibility. He is an extremist (just like Pink I guess) LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 07:08
^^ You're right, that was decent.


Edited by suitkees - May 18 2021 at 07:08

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 07:13
That is why this complex problem would require a simple solution (just like the fall of the USSR or the Iron Curtain) . Two nations mutually accept the other, eschew the violent extremists within and strive to cooperate together. I had heard the following from both sides: If the Palestinians , The Israelis and the Israeli Arabs would work together , it would be a real superpower in economics, agriculture, science, finance, culture and a beacon of hope for humanity, ironically in a place where it all may have started in the first place. These are very stubborn people but so are/were the Irish and the South Africans . 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 07:31
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I wish PA had an ignore function
This thread is basicallly everything wrong with the world today. A lot of folks that live far away...commenting on stuff they have no way of checking up on...and no I am most definitely not siding with anyone other than righteous people. I have friends on both sides of the fence and hear their respective cases with a ton of pics and articles attached...yet I don’t trust them to be ‘in the know’. They’re often blinded by hate or fear...which is very understandable when you really think about it. Yet I honestly don’t think either side knows what is going on.

Have you read what I've posted?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 07:37
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I wish PA had an ignore function
This thread is basicallly everything wrong with the world today. A lot of folks that live far away...commenting on stuff they have no way of checking up on...and no I am most definitely not siding with anyone other than righteous people. I have friends on both sides of the fence and hear their respective cases with a ton of pics and articles attached...yet I don’t trust them to be ‘in the know’. They’re often blinded by hate or fear...which is very understandable when you really think about it. Yet I honestly don’t think either side knows what is going on.


Have you read what I've posted?



Yes and you are not helping the situation.
If you read my posts you’ll know why I think so.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 08:03
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Regardless of the current sides of this old problem, it's time for a Palestinian State and be done with it.

Maybe you think its time for a Palestinian state, but the Palestinians dont seem to think so. Or at least certainly not a state limited to the West Bank and Gaza. 


You have a very peculiar and selective way of reading history. 

Thank for further demonstrating my point that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are, indeed, not interested in a Palestinian state under the terms most westerners, SteveG, the European Union, the UN, and the US, seem to think would appease them. As you pointed out, they see all of Israel as a stolen land. So why settle on just the West Bank and Gaza? And if that's all they wanted, they clearly could have had it. 
 

More of the obvious. Thanks. Now, where is that secret ignore button. It must be here somewhere...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 08:25
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I wish PA had an ignore function
This thread is basicallly everything wrong with the world today. A lot of folks that live far away...commenting on stuff they have no way of checking up on...and no I am most definitely not siding with anyone other than righteous people. I have friends on both sides of the fence and hear their respective cases with a ton of pics and articles attached...yet I don’t trust them to be ‘in the know’. They’re often blinded by hate or fear...which is very understandable when you really think about it. Yet I honestly don’t think either side knows what is going on.

Have you read what I've posted?




In order to say that I am not helping the situation, you should know it but from what you write I assume that you do not know it.

This is not a war between two states.

Here there is only one state, which keeps a people under control, in the militarily occupied territories.

Here is an oppressed and an oppressor.

Israel demolishes Palestinian homes in Greater Jerusalem every day, but no one in the West says it. But everyone in Israel knows this.

This situation arises from the fact that Israel is expropriating the home of Palestinians who have lived in East Jerusalem for centuries, and this is a VIOLATION of international law, because according to UN resolutions the settlements that Israel builds in the occupied territories are ILLEGAL.

Today we talk about Hamas rockets: it's stupid, it's like looking at the finger pointing to the Moon instead of the Moon.

I posted what an association of Jews and Palestinians, united, who are opposed to this constant crime of colonizing the occupied territories says.

There can be no doubt about this: those who support the colonization of the occupied Palestinian territories are on the side of a crime.

Here you don't have to choose a side to cheer on, it's not a football game, and there's nothing to choose, you have to choose whether to be on the side of justice or oppression.

Israel is committing an abuse of power and this is why it bombs the palaces of journalists, the Palestinians would instead journalists to document what Israel is doing, to film the demolition of houses.

The colonization of the occupied Palestinian territories has reached such a point that talking about a Palestinian state is now impossible, also because this state should have East Jerusalem as its capital, but precisely, what is happening in East Jerusalem? That Israel wants to colonize it all by expropriating the Palestinians!

So it is a matter of choosing whether to ask for justice or to be on the side of crime, of the total destruction of the Palestinian nation, transforming it like the Native Americans who live in reservations.

The Ichad is made up of both not-violent Jews and Palestinians who want a single secular and binational state for Jews and Palestinians.

They are the last people who can be accused of not helping to understand the situation and the only people who do not cheer for any part but who just want to UNITE the two sides in a peaceful coexistence.


Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 08:32
It may well be in good intentions Lorenzo but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
You are still focusing on the “wet carpets”, however emotionally horrific they are. You need to look at this from an entirely different perspective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 08:33
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

Thank for further demonstrating my point that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are, indeed, not interested in a Palestinian state under the terms most westerners, SteveG, the European Union, the UN, and the US, seem to think would appease them.

...as those same "westerners" don't seem to accept a Palestinian state under the terms most Arabs would want it to see.

If the Spanish would come to France and throw me off my land and out of my house because Cervantes had promised it to them in the sequel of Don Quichotte, I would not accept it. Not now and not in 73 years. Maybe I would listen and talk if a decent solution would be proposed.

Since 1967 no decent solution has been proposed, and today  Netanyahu is just profiting from the Western apathy regarding this conflict by continuing the colonization (= land grab) and the suffocation of the Palestinian people in Gaza and on the West Bank, and at the same time consolidating an apartheid regime in Israel itself.

We don't need objectivity here, we need a just solution, but Israel doesn't seem to want a just solution but to continue its aggressive and oppressive politics towards Arabs and the Palestinian territories. Apparently with your blessing.


A Palestinian state is no longer possible. Colonization is too extensive, and Israel will never leave East Jerusalem as the capital of that hypothetical state. In fact, all of this is happening precisely because Israel's aim is to "ethnically cleanse" East Jerusalem by making it as Jewish as possible. In the past, Israel considered the idea of ​​a Palestinian state, but only because it had in mind a puppet state, that is, without an army, without water, without economic autonomy, in short, a state totally dependent on Israel, which could invade it. and block it at the economic, commercial and livelihood level. Now this too is no longer possible. Israel is now close to achieving its plan, which is the occupation of about 80% of the West Bank, putting Palestinians in bantustans, or enclaves, similar to those of apartheid South Africa. This is why Israeli nonviolent activists now speak of a single entity, where apartheid is in effect, and demand a single, secular and bi-national state.

But obviously, this is an idealistic solution


Edited by jamesbaldwin - May 18 2021 at 08:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 08:48
^ Good posts, Lorenzo!

There are basically two solutions, but both have problems:
1. The One State solution: the most reasonable and just, but indeed nowadays the least realist (because of the "demographic danger");
2. The Two State solution: probably the most realist, but fundamentally unjust.

If there is a third one, I would like to hear it!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 11:10

The idea that any Palestinian State plan could ultimately bring peace is a pipedream. What is does offer to Palestinians is their own sovereignty and control of their own people. No evictions by Israels government, no second class citizenship, etc. If the Palestinians are too dense to embrace that, then there's not much to be said for them. Unless Israelis decide to chuck it in and take over some other region of the world, there's not much hope of there ever being peace in the Mideast.

Edited by SteveG - May 18 2021 at 12:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 13:47
I'm reading the posts with interest, particularly those of people who live around there but also of those others who are well informed. There's much in these posts I don't agree with, but at least for the moment I won't tell. I will listen and learn. We don't learn how things really are, we learn how the people see the things, and this is about as good as it gets. No ignore button for me. If only there was more attempt to understand and appreciate an opponent's point of view and how they got there, rather than to confirm the own world view and condemn the other. Ultimately nobody can convince anybody else; people can only convince themselves. But maybe that's too much to wish for, and deceptively easy for somebody whose family is not in immediate danger to be killed by an "enemy" and who has no rockets fired in direction of their home.  Peace to all of you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 14:36
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ Good posts, Lorenzo!

There are basically two solutions, but both have problems:
1. The One State solution: the most reasonable and just, but indeed nowadays the least realist (because of the "demographic danger");
2. The Two State solution: probably the most realist, but fundamentally unjust.

If there is a third one, I would like to hear it!

The third one exists: From a realistic point of view, in the short and medium term, the Palestinians as a nation are doomed to disappear. Confused


They will not have a true, autonomous state, and Israel does not want to annex the West Bank because it does not want a secular state, it wants to remain Jewish, and to be Jewish it must have a Jewish majority (and if we add Israeli Palestinians to those of the West Bank, in total these are more than the Jews). 

We all are witnessing the demise of the Palestinian people, which is happening every day with the construction of new Israeli settlements and the demolition of Palestinian homes. Palestinians who do not emigrate will live in small enclaves, controlled by the Israeli military (similar to American reserves for Native Americans, but much more crowded), but the rest of the Palestinians, the majority of them, will live in exile.

This is what is happening.

One can argue whether it is right or wrong, who is to blame, but this is happening.

The one-state solution is the only viable "on the ground" but not realistically possible in the short and medium term, and above all: why should Israel give up now that it is close to its goal, which is to take over all of Jerusalem? I remember that East Jerusalem has been a Jewish majority for several years and as we know all the efforts of Israel go in the direction of making sure that the US and Europe recognize Jerusalem as the only and indivisible capital of the Jewish state, that is of Israel.

I don't think there is anything strange in what Israel is doing: having international impunity, it is carrying out its plan. Apart from the proclamations, no one opposes him, no one imposes sanctions.

I live in Italy, and I believe that the responsibility for the colonization of the occupied territories is to be divided between Israel, Europe and the United States.

I would like the Palestinians to react in a nonviolent way, but their leaders are divided, and they do not have the proper culture to do so, moreover, to do a nonviolent campaign they must have the support of the international community, as happened with the boycott of South Africa. 

I limit myself to pointing out what the associations led by Israeli and Palestinian nonviolent pacifists, united, Jews and Muslims, do as a testimony of what should be done.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sagichim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 16:26
As was already stated here since 1948 Palestinians were trying to drive the Jewish community out of here by terror acts or war, once their leaders accept and realise we are not going anyway the road to piece will be shorter, since most of Israelis understand and accept Palestinians right to live here as well, but unfortunately 2 million Arabs are held captive by a terror organization which doesn’t care about its people. The only way Palestinians in Gaza will have any kind of life is when they will have a proper leader which believe in the right of Israelis to live here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tszirmay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2021 at 17:41
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ Good posts, Lorenzo!

There are basically two solutions, but both have problems:
1. The One State solution: the most reasonable and just, but indeed nowadays the least realist (because of the "demographic danger");
2. The Two State solution: probably the most realist, but fundamentally unjust.

If there is a third one, I would like to hear it!

The third one exists: From a realistic point of view, in the short and medium term, the Palestinians as a nation are doomed to disappear. Confused


They will not have a true, autonomous state, and Israel does not want to annex the West Bank because it does not want a secular state, it wants to remain Jewish, and to be Jewish it must have a Jewish majority (and if we add Israeli Palestinians to those of the West Bank, in total these are more than the Jews). 

We all are witnessing the demise of the Palestinian people, which is happening every day with the construction of new Israeli settlements and the demolition of Palestinian homes. Palestinians who do not emigrate will live in small enclaves, controlled by the Israeli military (similar to American reserves for Native Americans, but much more crowded), but the rest of the Palestinians, the majority of them, will live in exile.

This is what is happening.

One can argue whether it is right or wrong, who is to blame, but this is happening.

The one-state solution is the only viable "on the ground" but not realistically possible in the short and medium term, and above all: why should Israel give up now that it is close to its goal, which is to take over all of Jerusalem? I remember that East Jerusalem has been a Jewish majority for several years and as we know all the efforts of Israel go in the direction of making sure that the US and Europe recognize Jerusalem as the only and indivisible capital of the Jewish state, that is of Israel.

I don't think there is anything strange in what Israel is doing: having international impunity, it is carrying out its plan. Apart from the proclamations, no one opposes him, no one imposes sanctions.

I live in Italy, and I believe that the responsibility for the colonization of the occupied territories is to be divided between Israel, Europe and the United States.

I would like the Palestinians to react in a nonviolent way, but their leaders are divided, and they do not have the proper culture to do so, moreover, to do a nonviolent campaign they must have the support of the international community, as happened with the boycott of South Africa. 

I limit myself to pointing out what the associations led by Israeli and Palestinian nonviolent pacifists, united, Jews and Muslims, do as a testimony of what should be done.


There is also a fourth option as espoused by the Arab extremists = the destruction or eviction of all Jewish Israelis , maybe even the Christians (see Lebanon or Syria) permanently (which will not happen), but fear goes beyond logic . These are not my words but rather one that is loud and hard by religious fanatics who have no idea what any democracy (even semi-failed ones around the world) is and frankly , they don't even want it , as you correctly stated . What you said initially in your earlier posts were clearly tinged with the usual semi-propaganda, which is why some are frustrated. But you seem to have dropped the cut and paste methodology and replaced it with a modicum of logic. Yes , what is happening is horrible , even most Israelis feel fear, anger and disappointment. I have Arab Israeli friends who would shudder at the thought of living under Hamas or Hezbollah, there are 2.5 million of them. But until, the religious BS leaves the room, it will be hard. I was asked by 20 Muslim employees because of my history knowledge while I was managing a restaurant during the first Gulf War "Why is the West always on the side of Israel?". I answered slowly the following: name me one Arab or even Muslim country anywhere that has had any free and open multi-party elections? Answer: zero. Today, I still can't even name one . Your arguments are all valid but they are slanted by not looking at context, history, political realities and mostly that Israel does have a multi-faceted society as well as not all being "believers", where you can be gay, lesbian, trans and drink alcohol and party, as well as disagreeing with your leaders.   
Even unbiased experts are at a loss to extricate some kind of solution that would be fair to all. I must have thousands of pages of research and interviews and still can't really offer anything except a return to the original declaration of Independence and hope that saner leaders will prevail (Sadat, Rabin were assassinated for daring to try). Accept each other, live and respect each other , like you did a few times and for hundreds of years, in peace and harmony.  


Edited by tszirmay - May 18 2021 at 17:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ssmarcus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 01:12
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

^ Good posts, Lorenzo!

There are basically two solutions, but both have problems:
1. The One State solution: the most reasonable and just, but indeed nowadays the least realist (because of the "demographic danger");
2. The Two State solution: probably the most realist, but fundamentally unjust.

If there is a third one, I would like to hear it!

First off, not all problems have solutions. There are mathematical and scientific conundrums that continue to escape resolution. And these are in almost entirely deterministic systems! How much more so must this be true when dealing with the complexities and variability in human behavior and decision making on a societal scale?! 

In the absence of solutions, we should pick strategies that optimize our goals. Now you obviously don't accept the idea of Jewish self-determination (that is easily implied from your comments until this point), so I'll keep my analysis on two goals: 1. the preservation of life & well being of all of the territories residents 2. Political sustainability. 

Both of your "solutions" would fail miserably. Number 1 is, put simply, impossible to maintain. We've already seen how Arab parties within Israel cannot cooperate with the Jewish parties and how Palestinian factions (primarily Fatah and Hamas) have resorted to slaughtering and jailing each other when given the opportunity. It is very unlikely a one state solution would be politically viable making it fall on point 2. 

A two state solution would also fail on both counts. Weve already seen how, in the absence of an Israeli military presence in Gaza, Palestinian political factions are incapable of cooperating and will engage in bloody civil war for control. So there goes goal 2 and goal 1 for the Palestinian side. And on the Israeli side That same failed Palestinian state will create a vacuum for extremists, armed by and funded by Iran, to target an every greater portion of Israel with even more destructive power. Again, this is not a theoretical. This is exactly what happened in Gaza and southern Lebanon after Israel withdrew. It is therefore a near certainty for this to happen in the West Bank as well. 

The only strategy historically proven to keep the conflict at a simmer with relative political stability is the status quo. Thanks to Israeli security cooperation, the PA has managed to keep extremist Isalmic terror groups at bay. The past 10 years have been some of the quietest in the region since the British Mandate.  Economically, the West Bank has seen sustained economic growth and rise in the standard of living since 67. Most Arabs within Israel, according to polls, prefer to stay Israeli, and not join a Palestinian state, even if they are critical of the state as whole. This lends politically credibility, and therefore, sustainability to what already exists. 

Again, this is not to say people don't die or that the political landscape is free of any instability. But I am not claiming to offer an "solution" since no solution exists. I am merely offering a strategy that optimizes our goals against alternatives. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 01:49
Originally posted by ssmarcus ssmarcus wrote:

...Now you obviously don't accept the idea of Jewish self-determination (that is easily implied from your comments until this point)...

Your way of misreading/misinterpreting my posts is staggering.

You may not agree with my point of of view, and I definitely don't agree with yours. First of all, your "status quo solution" implies that you are in favour of continuing suffocation and oppression of the Palestinians. For you, that is sustainable, for me that is accepting injustice as a strategy; for me that is not a solution (and should not be).

Second, I am not against Jewish self-determination, but the way Israel was created has been cause of many problems because it used injustice as a building logic. But I am especially against apartheid. When I'm talking about Israel, I'm not just talking about Jews.
You seem to be against self-determination of Palestinians (out of fear, which is understandable, but still not right). What's your right to deprive a country/population of something you claim for yourself?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 01:58
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

but the way Israel was created


Lest it eluded your perception or mental grasp, I had mentioned that how Israel "got" their land is NOT how you know it, according to the common knowledge in Turkey. (I simply don't have "neutral" info on that, but believe that our info can be correct.)

Also we, Turkey, are buying tons (tons, tons, tons, and tons) of non-biosoluble garbage from Europe nowadays. I believe it is our stupidity: exchanging a healthy environment for money. But I also blame the Europeans for abusing our "defect".


Edited by Shadowyzard - May 19 2021 at 02:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote suitkees Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 02:10
^ Don't pretend that you know what I know.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2021 at 02:15
^ I don't "pretend" anything here. Work on your... something.
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