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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think the problem with a lot of this bickering about Kansas is that you’re apparently looking for European-style prog in the US. If you won’t designate as prog anything except European-style prog, then you’re definitely not going to find anything before European prog bands broke out.

I’ve been attempting an alternative thesis where progressive rock took a different approach in the US, coming from a 20th cen. classical / avant garde perspective, rather than a neo-romantic, neo-classical perspective. I think it’s entirely plausible to do this, using Zappa and Beefheart as a starting point and working out from there.


oh, that's a novel idea. But seriously, after Zappa and Beefheart what artists have you got?

Edited by SteveG - March 25 2021 at 15:09
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile
It was a rhetorical question Paul, as it was in reference to other avant artists aside from Zappa and BH that are considered to be prog.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile

So are you saying there aren't any or just that you haven't come across any? 
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile
It was a rhetorical question Paul, as it was in reference to other avant artists aside from Zappa and BH that are considered to be prog.

On the subject of avant artists, I listened to my very first RIO/Avant Prog album today by an American band called Cartoon, but the offbeat cranky music sounded a bit Looney Tunes to my ears. Tongue
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I'll let you know, Steve, if I find any pre-Kansas-era American albums on the Prog Line channel, but I haven't come across any so far. Smile

So are you saying there aren't any or just that you haven't come across any? 

I've only reached the letter "C" in the alphabet on Prog Line albums, so I still have a lot of listening to do yet. I've found a handful of American prog albums from 1976, but nothing earlier than that so far, but I'll keep you posted if I do come across any. Smile
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^ I like all of those psychedelic bands you mentioned and I have every CD album by Spooky Tooth, apart from the weird album they made with French "music concrete" artist Pierre Henry, which is the album most Spooky Tooth fans avoid and the album the band themselves wish they'd never made. Confused
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Here's s list of early US prog groups off the top of my head Paul: Starcastle, Vindication, Mutha Goose, Maelstrom and Periscope. See if you find them.
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Here's s list of early US prog groups off the top of my head Paul: Starcastle, Vindication, Mutha Goose, Maelstrom and Periscope. See if you find them.

I haven't come across any albums by any of those bands you mentioned so far, but I'll keep my Periscope sighted for them. Smile

By the way, Steve, just in case you were wondering, I was replying to AFlowerKingCrimson in my previous post, but he deleted his post and sent me a private message instead, so it now appears as if I'm talking to myself, which wouldn't be the first time. Tongue
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Here's s list of early US prog groups off the top of my head Paul: Starcastle, Vindication, Mutha Goose, Maelstrom and Periscope. See if you find them.


I haven't come across any albums by any of those bands you mentioned so far, but I'll keep my Periscope sighted for them. Smile

By the way, Steve, just in case you were wondering, I was replying to AFlowerKingCrimson in my previous post, but he deleted his post and sent me a private message instead, so it now appears as if I'm talking to myself, which wouldn't be the first time. Tongue
I'm sure that a few are listed here. Or should be.
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Here's a list I sent to Paul that I initially posted here but deleted it. I'll post it again though. 

Touch- same (considered by some to be the first prog album) 1968

Orange Wedge (more hard rock or bluesy but proggish at times at least). Two albums(72 and 74).

Sweet Smoke (two albums) (the first one "just a poke" is from 1970 and the second from 1973).

Ram - Where? In conclusion (1972)

The Facedancers -same (1972)

Also the band Quill (sometimes called the Quill)put out one album in 1970 and actually played at wood stock but because they weren't in the movie they didn't get much recognition and broke up after one album. I think on youtube it's called just Quill. So type in that plus 1970. I think they were maybe more like proto prog but not bad. 

Finally there's Spooky Tooth(listed as proto prog on here)and Frank Zappa and the Mothers. Uncle Meat is prog imo. I'm not sure what I would call it. It's jazzy I suppose but not as much as Hot Rats(which I also like).

Spirit were another one who are sometimes considered either prog or proto prog.

Paul, I have heard some of that Pierre Henry/ Spooky Tooth on youtube. His sound effects don't really fit in with their music and it comes off sounding weird. I think I could get used to it though. 
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG]Here's s list of early US prog groups off the top of my head Paul: Starcastle, Vindication, Mutha Goose, Maelstrom and Periscope. See if you find them.


I haven't come across any albums by any of those bands you mentioned so far, but I'll keep my Periscope sighted for them. Smile

By the way, Steve, just in case you were wondering, I was replying to AFlowerKingCrimson in my previous post, but he deleted his post and sent me a private message instead, so it now appears as if I'm talking to myself, which wouldn't be the first time. Tongue
Opps duplicate post.

Edited by SteveG - March 25 2021 at 17:15
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Here's a list I sent to Paul that I initially posted here but deleted it. I'll post it again though. 

<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Touch- same (considered by some to be the first prog album) 1968
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Orange Wedge (more hard rock or bluesy but proggish at times at least). Two albums(72 and 74).<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Sweet Smoke (two albums) (the first one "just a poke" is from 1970 and the second from 1973).<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Ram - Where? In conclusion (1972)<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">The Facedancers -same (1972)<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Also the band Quill (sometimes called the Quill)put out one album in 1970 and actually played at wood stock but because they weren't in the movie they didn't get much recognition and broke up after one album. I think on youtube it's called just Quill. So type in that plus 1970. I think they were maybe more like proto prog but not bad. <div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Finally there's Spooky Tooth(listed as proto prog on here)and Frank Zappa and the Mothers. Uncle Meat is prog imo. I'm not sure what I would call it. It's jazzy I suppose but not as much as Hot Rats(which I also like).<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Spirit were another one who are sometimes considered either prog or proto prog.<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">
<div style=": rgb248, 248, 252;">Paul, I have heard some of that Pierre Henry/ Spooky Tooth on youtube. His sound effects don't really fit in with their music and it comes off sounding weird. I think I could get used to it though. 
I'm familiar with many of these but didn't know if they were proto prog or proggy hard rock, so I didn't mention them. Oh, Spooky Tooth are British, unless there's also a US band with that name.

Edited by SteveG - March 25 2021 at 17:35
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Duddick View Drop Down
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Spooky Tooth were British apart from Gary Wright?
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Duddick Duddick wrote:

Spooky Tooth were British apart from Gary Wright?
Yup, Wright is a Jersey boy.
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Yeah, not sure why I thought Spooky Tooth were from the US. Maybe they just sound american to me. Not sure.
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You must of heard "Dream Weaver" playing in your mind when you heard Spooky Tooth. I think Paul said they were American first in an earlier post.
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I think Spooky Tooth had 10 different guitarists and 10 different keyboard players.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

oh, that's a novel idea. But seriously, after Zappa and Beefheart what artists have you got?

Rather the onus is on those in this forum who say that Zappa and Beefheart are so utterly unique, to explain where Zappa and Beefheart came from. That should help clear some things up. It seems unhelpful to me to view Zappa and Beefheart as complete outliers from everything else.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

I think the problem with a lot of this bickering about Kansas is that you’re apparently looking for European-style prog in the US. If you won’t designate as prog anything except European-style prog, then you’re definitely not going to find anything before European prog bands broke out.

I’ve been attempting an alternative thesis where progressive rock took a different approach in the US, coming from a 20th cen. classical / avant garde perspective, rather than a neo-romantic, neo-classical perspective. I think it’s entirely plausible to do this, using Zappa and Beefheart as a starting point and working out from there.


oh, that's a novel idea. But seriously, after Zappa and Beefheart what artists have you got?

Residents is one other.  And that's it.  

I think a better split rather than avant garde v/s symphonic is fusion v/s symphonic.  That's the real reason American prog didn't quite take off in a big way even though prog was popular. The musicians who MIGHT have played prog headed to fusion and became a part of the broader jazz scene.  
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