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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss. |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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i love the VU, and much of what Reed and Cale released subsequently. They were a truly influential band, for sure. And definitely progressive in many ways, even if not often perceived as prog. They’re prog to me, but I completely get why others don’t agree, and therefore probably why they’re not listed here.
For a start, my favourite artist ever, Bowie, might never have headed off in the odd directions he did, had it not been for the VU. |
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Icarium ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: March 21 2008 Location: Tigerstaden Status: Offline Points: 34076 |
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Edited by Icarium - March 24 2021 at 15:53 |
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Progosopher ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: May 12 2009 Location: Coolwood Status: Offline Points: 6472 |
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[/QUOTE]
I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.[/QUOTE] As a former college instructor in Humanities, which I describe as the history of the arts, I can say that many of my students were disappointed that there was so little about the United States. Abstract art of the 20th century was particularly difficult for them - they had no background which would help them understand what was going on. The only time I was successful in explaining why Picasso was so important was when I had access to a slide collection (this was before the internet) that showed how often he changed his style. None of his styles by themselves impressed the students, but the sheer creative vitality over the years did. This is somewhat akin to what Miles had achieved over his career. Of course, I had students who embraced it all, and understand modern and post-modern movements, but they were the minority. As I see it, American rock music during the formative years of Prog was based on Blues, original rock 'n' roll, a little jazz, and folk from our side of the pond. The Brits were more versed in classical, bringing in the elements of rock and jazz into the mix. What we call Proto- and Prog- related were still heavily based on the Blues. I am writing of major trends here, and we can find exceptions to all of this.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Spaciousmind ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: September 07 2020 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 724 |
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I don't know, this categorization started in later years where people have this big need to put everything into shoe boxes with a nice pretty label and then stack it all on shelves.
I don't know about the US, nor really England since I never came across one while I lived there. But in Germany early/mid seventies you had some night clubs in different cities. We had one in Osnabrueck and I remember going to another in Muenster and in Duesseldorf so I would guess there were a few across the country. These night clubs only played Heavy Music and you could smell the pot as you walked in. These places were visited by all us long haired folks. I was a non smoker back then so it would always hit me immediately (my disclaimer). Good job that I was a non smoker back then as every so often once every couple of months the police would just raid the places because of the illegality of the smoking. Well the one in the city I lived in, I spend many a Friday or Saturday night there until daylight hit you and you stumbled home to sleep the rest of that day. In the UK when you say Night Club it was all disco. In Germany mostly too, except for these niche places I just mentioned. In these clubs they played Heavy Music and only Heavy Music and us hairy folks (which we all were back then) sat there got up and danced very occasionally (as much as you can dance to this stuff lol, more like shaking your long hair about), but mostly chatted and got drunk and walked over to the DJ to requests the next songs. Since Germany was back then filled with a lot garrisons you had Americans and Brits depending what city it was and Germans all there. Mostly getting drunk and chillin to the music. Anyway digressing... but the point is NO ONE gave a hoot if it was German, or British or American or what Genre it would be classified under today, the only criteria was it better be heavy and hit the spot. Besides if it wasn't the DJ shelves did not carry it anyway. So everything was played and pretty much equally regardless of what country made it. Of course the most popular stuff was long pieces not these 3 minutes songs. Nick Edited by Spaciousmind - March 24 2021 at 16:12 |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Crane ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 08 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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I think there might be something to say about the US as a nexus for 20th c. classical music. I think for those rock musicians who did see themselves as part of the classical tradition, it was as part of a branch which consciously viewed neoclassical and neoromantic styles as outdated. They were more likely to embrace atonalism, musique concrete, extended techniques, spectralism, etc.
What made me think of it is the related group of Fluxus artists, who certainly were working in the 20th c. classical orbit, and the later no wave scene, which had crossovers with the avant garde classical scene (Glenn Branca and Theoretical Girls jump to mind). |
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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Frenetic Zetetic ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 09 2017 Location: Now Status: Offline Points: 9233 |
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I came in here to say Beefheart was already off the rails by 1969, and things were barely getting started lol. Agreed on the fusion approach ala Davis. Well said!
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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
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Hrychu ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5602 |
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Todd Rundgren's Utopia. Love that album. It's way better and more proggy than anything Happy the Man and Kansas ever did.
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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Sean Trane ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20399 |
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Same thing in Canada, TBH. All these bands (and many more) found their way onto my shelves regardless of their proggyness or not. I knew of Germany and France's prog, partly because I was haunting specialized import shops and some excellent second-hand/used record shops. BTW, the only major prog country that didn't find its way into my record stash was Italy, but that's because I didn't know about it, not because I ignored it. As for the segregations, I think it came with the different chapels starting to hate or disdain each other in the later 70's I hate Floyd, Disco Sucks, Glam fags, Three-chord blues etc...
Well even then, part of the jazz & prog fusion
had also happened via Soft Machine and Nucleus (Canterbury in a wider
sense) or Magma Yup, in terms of "historical prog" (one could read this as "symphonic prog"), it evolved clearly from the UK and was aped very quickly in continental Europe . It seemed to take a longer time in Nortn Am (whether US or Canada). Sure there were "almost-pure prog" bands below & above the 49th parallel before 74, but it's not like they were hoarding airwaves or top 40 charts.
Well, when the site was created, PA wanted to be retrospective (dare I say even revisionist?) and added a whole bunch of other artistes that didn't fit the mould that the late 90's progheads had casted in aprorpriating that then-dirty four-letter word called "Prog". Basically to a lot of "progheads", in the late 90's and early 00's, "Prog" was 70's prog, neo-prog and 90's progmetal (Canterbury stuff was tolerated, but scared many because of the "jazz thing"). FTM, that's what PA was before it was bought by M@X and Proglucky. Our two québécois bought it from a guy down in Florida, and it was pretty restrictive (Gibraltar - GEPR - was also much that way, at the time) TBH, a lot of those genres were added to PA either as an afterthought or a form of revisionism. In 2006, you wouldn't believe the arguments because JR/F was added, though there was much less opposition (none if memory serrves) from the psych/space-prog creation. Hell PA even created Prog-related and Proto-prog to accomodate all these groups not falling in the restruictive carcans of "Prog". Other genres were added from the break-up of the fourre-tout Art Rock, others added since (Math & Post rock), etc... |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Crane ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 08 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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Following up on my last reply about the avant garde as more of an influence in the US: More artists who jump to mind:
Terry Riley LaMonte Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music Henry Flynt’s avant garde hillbilly music Annette Peacock Edited by Crane - March 25 2021 at 05:44 |
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Edited by SteveG - March 25 2021 at 05:49 |
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Crane ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 08 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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^ I’ll have to check the years for the artists I mentioned
Edited by Crane - March 25 2021 at 05:38 |
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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Crane ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 08 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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Peacock’s ‘I’m the One,’ 1972
Riley’s ‘In C,’ 1968 Riley’s ‘Rainbow in Curved Air,’ 1969 Young’s Theatre of Eternal Music was active in the 60’s Flynt’s ‘Raga Electric,’ recorded 1963-71 |
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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One of my favourite albums last year was a 2 disc version of In C. (Yes, two disc!)
(What I wrote about the album for TPA: In C is, of course, the rather famous composition by Terry Riley that has likely never been played in the same way twice since its origin in 1964. A series of melodic fragments held together by “the pulse”, for an indefinite number of musicians to play. Riley suggests a group of 35, but here we have only David Harrow – and it works perfectly. In C is a minimalist piece after all, and it doesn’t get more minimal than being played by just one musician. The directions are fairly simple. Of the 53 phrases that make up C, any can be played (though they must be played in order), for an arbitrary length of time. Each player has control over which phrases they play, and for how long. In C thus has no set duration, and so can last for minutes or for hours. I wasn’t entirely convinced I was going to enjoy listening to David Harrow’s In C in one go, as it effectively provides four different variations (two sides of a piece originally intended for 12” vinyl, a fast, and a slow version). But, just wow! Not only did I never get bored or tired of the music, but the final piece (the slow version) was the absolute highlight. Rather than lose interest, my attention grew toward the end of the album. I also particularly enjoyed the 12” Side B piece. It’s hard to describe how such a repetitive and patterned performance can be so affective, but rest assured it is. Given the slow version is 70-minutes long, it’s effectively an album in itself, and if it were the only performance offered, this release would still be well worth investing in. For me the additional 12” sides and fast version are merely icing on the cake. An absolute treat, and a great way to start Rattle’s Five-In-Five campaign! ) |
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Crane ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 08 2011 Location: Rhode Island Status: Offline Points: 411 |
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I think ‘In C’ is proto-prog in that it represents the opening of avant garde concepts to the possibility of their performance by rock musicians, in that ‘In C’ deliberately leaves undetermined its instrumentation. If I wanted to push this idea further I’d say ‘4’33”’ is an even earlier example.
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“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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omphaloskepsis ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 19 2011 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 6725 |
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Perhaps it partly comes down to speech and accents?
To my ear, English, Irish, Welsh, and Scots accents seem more melodious than American accents. Maybe a lifetime of speaking melodic UK accents seeps into the music?
Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 25 2021 at 06:16 |
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nick_h_nz ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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If prog is an attitude not a genre, then In C and 4’33” are both prog compositions. Prog AF! 🤘🏻 Rattle (which released David Harrow’s In C last year) is a jazz and classical label, but much of the music is very progressive even if people might not think of it as prog. They’ve released so much wonderful music over the years, and much of it is prog in my eyes (or, rather, ears). |
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Spaciousmind ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: September 07 2020 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 724 |
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The problem is you can't ever discuss these artists and what was good about them without having to feel worried about being inappropriate, as you worry about someone jumping on you stating this don't fit here it belongs someplace else. So what made these artist great and why did proggers listen to them as well? It's a classic misrepresentation of true history as you see all the time in books, tv and internet. If you wish to separate the US with Europe then perhaps the difference was as simple as heavy guitar centered progressiveness versus less heavy guitar centered progressiveness, it's probably not any more complicated than that. Nick
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