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Early British Prog vs American. Discuss.
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Crane View Drop Down
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Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

btw Happy The Man came out in '73....and I consider them more proggy than Kansas.

Judging by this quote from Wikipedia, Happy The Man is spiritually a European prog band, maybe why you perceive them as more proggy:

“Guitarist Stanley Whitaker and bassist Rick Kennell first met in Germany in 1972. Whitaker, whose army officer father had left his native Missouri for Germany four years earlier, had formed Shady Grove, with fellow US expatriate, keyboardist David Bach, while Kennell had just been drafted and was stationed there, beginning a two-year stint in the army. The pair met when Kennell attended a Shady Grove gig in mid-1972, and discovering a shared love of British progressive rock, decided to form a band together.”
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@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?

Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 11:33
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.

Zappa is far more analogous to Picasso than Rockwell. In any event, Rockwell isn’t taken seriously by the artistic establishment. But Jackson Pollack is.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
"...the point is that while the UK was basked in Piper At The Gates, Days Of Future Past, and ItCotCK, the US had The Beat Goes On by Vanilla Fudge, Freak Out! by the Mothers and the eponymous debut by The United States Of America. Symphonic/psych vs Avant/experimental/RIO."

I love the debut album by The United States of America too, even more so than the debut albums by England and U.K. Smile
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Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.


Zappa is far more analogous to Picasso than Rockwell. In any event, Rockwell isn’t taken seriously by the artistic establishment. But Jackson Pollack is.
yes, that was my point.
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.


I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
"...the point is that while the UK was basked in Piper At The Gates, Days Of Future Past, and ItCotCK, the US had The Beat Goes On by Vanilla Fudge, Freak Out! by the Mothers and the eponymous debut by The United States Of America. Symphonic/psych vs Avant/experimental/RIO."


I love the debut album by The United States of America too, even more so than the debut albums by England and U.K. Smile
ha ha that made me laugh.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


Oh, this is fun. Does a few disparate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the disparate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

 
I guess it depends what you think is disparate? It’s all subjective, and all depends on what measure you are judging how disparate or not either of the two scenes were. But I think there was an early US prog movement, that simply occurred a little later than the UK prog movement. The US prog movement perhaps doesn’t appear as much of a movement, purely because the progressive rock scene (for all that it was appreciated overseas), was a mainly Europe and especially British (and British Commonwealth) phenomenon. There are a number of reasons that have been given for why there was not as overt a movement in the US. Geographically, the smaller area of the UK allowed a lot more cross-pollination and appreciation, while the US bands pretty much remained in their own pockets. US musicians also tended to have a blues background, while Europeans were often more likely to be influenced by classical music. This can even be seen in the pre/proto prog of psychedelic music. There is often a distinct difference in sound and influence between UK and US psychedelia. The music industries were also quite different within the UK and US.

Regardless, I think there is a generally agreed upon (but by no means definite or inarguable) early Uk prog movement (from around 1969 to 1973?). The equivalent in the US is more from, say 1973-1977, with bands like Dixie Dregs, Happy the Man, Journey, Kansas, Starcastle, Styx, etc. You could call them disparate, but I’m not convinced they’re any more disparate than the big six of UK prog? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[COLOR=#202122" face="sans-serif]<span style="caret-color: rgb32, 33, 34; font-size: 15px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;]I don’t think there is really much crossover between the early UK and US prog scenes, with the latter more or less taking off once the former had already peaked.</span>[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202122" face="sans-serif]<span style="caret-color: rgb32, 33, 34; font-size: 15px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;]
</span>[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202122" face="sans-serif]<span style="caret-color: rgb32, 33, 34; font-size: 15px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;]For the record, the early NZ prog scene took place around the same time as the early US prog scene, but had a sound far more similar to the early UK prog scene! 😜</span>[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#202122" face="sans-serif]<span style="caret-color: rgb32, 33, 34; font-size: 15px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;]
</span>[/COLOR]

Well, I'm of the school that holds that early US prog was indeed a movement by some, but not all, of the groups I mentioned that culminated with Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica in 1969, where it couldn't go any further.

Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 12:03
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?

Absolutely.....of course. But are we going to start that long road again about what is or isn't progressive?
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?

Here, I think, is the problem. Because when you start to try and work out when what is experimental and or progressive is also considered prog, there are endless debates (as has been seen time and time and time again, year after year after year after year, on this forum). The seeds of prog in the UK and the US were very different. But there are generally bands that are agreed upon to be proto-prog. There are also bands that are agreed upon to have taken those proto-prog bands as an influence. Those bands tend to be part of a movement. Zappa and Beefheart were a movement only unto themselves, as has been pointed out already. They might be prog (and I don’t think anyone here has argued they are not), but they are not part of an early prog movement, to me. 

So the key here is movement, rather than prog. And this is where obviously another area where there a great deal of subjectivity can lead to great disagreement. At least three people have stated that what you consider to be the early US prog movement is not the same was what you consider it to be. There is no wrong or right answer, so all that is left is to discuss - which is what you asked us to do in your initial post. And, to be fair, it’s all been very civil discussion. I don’t think anyone has been rude or negative.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?


Here, I think, is the problem. Because when you start to try and work out when what is experimental and or progressive is also considered prog, there are endless debates (as has been seen time and time and time again, year after year after year after year, on this forum). The seeds of prog in the UK and the US were very different. But there are generally bands that are agreed upon to be proto-prog. There are also bands that are agreed upon to have taken those proto-prog bands as an influence. Those bands tend to be part of a movement. Zappa and Beefheart were a movement only unto themselves, as has been pointed out already. They might be prog (and I don’t think anyone here has argued they are not), but they are not part of an early prog movement, to me. 

So the key here is movement, rather than prog. And this is where obviously another area where there a great deal of subjectivity can lead to great disagreement. At least three people have stated that what you consider to be the early US prog movement is not the same was what you consider it to be. There is no wrong or right answer, so all that is left is to discuss - which is what you asked us to do in your initial post. And, to be fair, it’s all been very civil discussion. I don’t think anyone has been rude or negative.


With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having possibly used that logic.

Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 19:10
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having used that logic.

The debates are far from over!  I’m not sure what kind of cognitive link you made to assume anyone cared about the presence of Mellotron either? In your mind, you are of course welcome to believe the debates are over, but the fact there are still debates about what is or is t prog on and off this forum pretty much says otherwise. They may be futile and pointless, but they still occur. I don’t actually care, because I’ve never cared about what is or isn’t prog - and I certainly don’t care about what is or isn’t in PA.

If it comes down to it, I don’t know that I really believe there were early prog movements in the UK or the US, because that implies some sort of kinship that didn’t really often exist. RIO was a movement, but prog? Not really. When I’ve stated above that I think there is a case to be made for there being early US prog and early US prog movements, that’s more because I’m going along with a general consensus- however accurate or inaccurate it might be.

Heck, I don’t even think prog is a genre. How can it be, when it spans across genres? Prog is meta-genre. You can have pop, some of which is prog and some of which is not. You can have folk, some of which is prog and some of which is not. You can have metal, some of which is prog and some of which is not. You can have jazz, some of which is prog, and some of which is not. You can have hip hop, some of which is prog, and some of which is not. You can take pretty much any genre, and find examples of prog within it.

A movement requires some degree of similarity and compatibility. It requires some point of comparison. That is why there are certain bands that are grouped together from the UK and the US. That is why those groups are often seen as the early movements. It’s easy, it’s pragmatic and it’s expedient. It doesn’t make it right.

Zappa and Beefheart may be both more prog and more progressive than the bands that are seen to be part of the early US prog movement, but they aren’t generally seen as being part of a movement. You want to do so, no one is going to argue with you. It’s your prerogative. I’ve said in almost every post there is no right answer. I don’t happen to like any of the bands in the early US prog movement at all. And I do very much like Zappa and Beefheart. So I’m not even arguing for my favourites here. In fact, the opposite - I’m suggesting the bands I don’t like are the movement.

With only a few exceptions, I’m not a great fan of symphonic prog except for its Italian form. I love a lot of RPI. But what I listen to most, in terms of PA, anyway, tends to be RIO/Avant/Zeuhl/Jazz Fusion. Any symphonic prog (apart from RPI) that I listen to tends to come from Crossover, Eclectic or Canterbury. I have no sympathies or affection for much of the early UK prog movement, and none for the early US prog movement, but that doesn’t mean I can’t recognise why people can generally agree on when those movements were. It doesn’t make them right. It doesn’t make you wrong. But I think it’s important to mention that, even if this is your post, and you asked the question, yours is not the only answer. The reason I stated that three people disagreed with you is because you seem to have dismissed any alternate reasoning to your own. 🤷🏻‍♂️
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A point of comparison can only exist if one is familiar with the area that we are discussing. When Nogbad, an avant collaborator, is new to one if the artists I stated then that indicates a lack of familiarity in order to make a comparison and that's probably true of many here. That doesn't mean that Nogbad is not an expert on Univers Zero, but just not familiar enough with the groups I've stated. And so it is. I'm not going to pine over his or any other opinions based on this unfamiliarity. Perhaps this thread will move some to explore the groups I mentioned and find something they like. Then this thread will have been worth the effort to me.

Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 13:39
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

@ Dr Wu: Even with agreeing about not taking all of PA as gospel, let's go back to your statement of an artist wanting to sound different, as many of these early US bands did. Doesn't that entail some form of experimentation? And is that not one of the core tenents of being progressive?


Here, I think, is the problem. Because when you start to try and work out when what is experimental and or progressive is also considered prog, there are endless debates (as has been seen time and time and time again, year after year after year after year, on this forum). The seeds of prog in the UK and the US were very different. But there are generally bands that are agreed upon to be proto-prog. There are also bands that are agreed upon to have taken those proto-prog bands as an influence. Those bands tend to be part of a movement. Zappa and Beefheart were a movement only unto themselves, as has been pointed out already. They might be prog (and I don’t think anyone here has argued they are not), but they are not part of an early prog movement, to me. 

So the key here is movement, rather than prog. And this is where obviously another area where there a great deal of subjectivity can lead to great disagreement. At least three people have stated that what you consider to be the early US prog movement is not the same was what you consider it to be. There is no wrong or right answer, so all that is left is to discuss - which is what you asked us to do in your initial post. And, to be fair, it’s all been very civil discussion. I don’t think anyone has been rude or negative.


With all due respect Nick, there are 20 subgenres listed in PA, so I think the debates over as what is prog and what's not are over. If I had to take a guess, its because of the undying belief by some that any music without a mellotron and faux symphony is not early prog. A belief I believe is erroneous and detrimental. Regardless if three people state so, having possibly used that logic.
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A point of comparison can only exist if one is familiar with the area that we are discussing. When Nogbad, an avant collaborator, is new to one if the artists I stated then that indicates a lack of familiarity in order to make a comparison and that's probably true of many here. That doesn't mean that Nogbad is not an expert on Univers Zero, but just not familiar enough with the groups I've stated. And so it is. I'm not going to pine over his or any other opinions based on this unfamiliarity. Perhaps this thread will move some to explore the groups I mentioned and find something they like. Then this thread will have been worth the effort to me.

For sure! And that is definitely why I’m following it. My mind is not at all closed, and just because I haven’t found a lot of early US prog (apart from Zappa, Beefheart and all that good, good, jazz fusion) particularly to my taste, does not mean I am not open to trying some more of it. I am definitely well aware that US prog tends to be a quite big hole in my knowledge. I am more au fait with the US proto prog groups (eg Doors, Jefferson Airship, etc.), than with early US prog, “proper”.

One band you mentioned was, I think (I need to go back to check), Icarus. I’ve not heard of that band, so I will be giving them a listen. So your post has already been the effort to me. I do hope you haven’t found anything I’ve said rude or negative, because I definitely haven’t intended to be. I tend to enjoy your posts and comments, even if I don’t always agree with them.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A point of comparison can only exist if one is familiar with the area that we are discussing. When Nogbad, an avant collaborator, is new to one if the artists I stated then that indicates a lack of familiarity in order to make a comparison and that's probably true of many here. That doesn't mean that Nogbad is not an expert on Univers Zero, but just not familiar enough with the groups I've stated. And so it is. I'm not going to pine over his or any other opinions based on this unfamiliarity. Perhaps this thread will move some to explore the groups I mentioned and find something they like. Then this thread will have been worth the effort to me.


For sure! And that is definitely why I’m following it. My mind is not at all closed, and just because I haven’t found a lot of early US prog (apart from Zappa, Beefheart and all that good, good, jazz fusion) particularly to my taste, does not mean I am not open to trying some more of it. I am definitely well aware that US prog tends to be a quite big hole in my knowledge. I am more au fait with the US proto prog groups (eg Doors, Jefferson Airship, etc.), than with early US prog, “proper”.

One band you mentioned was, I think (I need to go back to check), Icarus. I’ve not heard of that band, so I will be giving them a listen. So your post has already been the effort to me. I do hope you haven’t found anything I’ve said rude or negative, because I definitely haven’t intended to be. I tend to enjoy your posts and comments, even if I don’t always agree with them.

it's all good Nick. I'm the only rude member .here anyway.
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

A point of comparison can only exist if one is familiar with the area that we are discussing. When Nogbad, an avant collaborator, is new to one if the artists I stated then that indicates a lack of familiarity in order to make a comparison and that's probably true of many here. That doesn't mean that Nogbad is not an expert on Univers Zero, but just not familiar enough with the groups I've stated. And so it is. I'm not going to pine over his or any other opinions based on this unfamiliarity. Perhaps this thread will move some to explore the groups I mentioned and find something they like. Then this thread will have been worth the effort to me.


For sure! And that is definitely why I’m following it. My mind is not at all closed, and just because I haven’t found a lot of early US prog (apart from Zappa, Beefheart and all that good, good, jazz fusion) particularly to my taste, does not mean I am not open to trying some more of it. I am definitely well aware that US prog tends to be a quite big hole in my knowledge. I am more au fait with the US proto prog groups (eg Doors, Jefferson Airship, etc.), than with early US prog, “proper”.

One band you mentioned was, I think (I need to go back to check), Icarus. I’ve not heard of that band, so I will be giving them a listen. So your post has already been the effort to me. I do hope you haven’t found anything I’ve said rude or negative, because I definitely haven’t intended to be. I tend to enjoy your posts and comments, even if I don’t always agree with them.

It's all good Nick. I'm the only rude member here anyway.
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Oh, there were two prog bands named Icarus. One was British. Only one was listed here but I don't know which one. If it's the British band they were avant/RIO, I think.

Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 16:08
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Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, there were two prog bands named Icsarus. One was British. Only one was listed here but I don't know which one. If it's the British band they were avant/RIO, I think.

There was also a British Jazz-Rock band named Icarus who recorded a one-off album based on the Marvel comics superheroes before disappearing into the sun, and then to cause further confusion, there were two bands with the slightly different name of Ikarus - one was a Swiss Zeuhl!? band and the other was a Krautrock band.
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There is also an odd one out with Velvet Underground whos features very early on. WONDERFULL mix of US and UK influence within the band members origins and points of influence. With Nico joining inn on the debute one also got a German influence as well. So as an early band featuring an U.K originated member in John Cale of multi instrumentalist, art school, conservator education, core band unit from U.S and lyricis, beat poet influenced Lou Reed, and Christa Päffgen aka Nico.

I just mean to say that Velvet Underground ought to be brought into this very intriguing conversation

Edited by Icarium - March 24 2021 at 15:36
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Points: 20617 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 15:43
Originally posted by Icarium Icarium wrote:

There is also an odd one out with Velvet Underground whos features very early on. WONDERFULL mix of US and UK influence within the band members origins and points of influence. With Nico joining inn on the debute one also got a German influence as well. So as an early band featuring an U.K originated member in John Cale of multi instrumentalist, art school, conservator education, core band unit from U.S and lyricis, beat poet influenced Lou Reed, and Christa Päffgen aka Nico.

I just mean to say that Velvet Underground ought to be brought into this very intriguing conversation
Unfortunately, this forward looking band containing John Cale is not listed in PA but they were greatly influential. No doubt about that.
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