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SteveG View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 24 2021 at 05:36

I've always been fascinted the way the two subgenres differed
with British prog going in a formal symphonic direction ala King Crimson, and American going in an avant garde direction ala Zappa and Beefheart. But why?









Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 05:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 05:40
The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 05:47
I didn't know there was such a thing as American prog until I "discovered" Kansas about ten years ago. Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 06:03
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.
Oh, I like that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (4) Thanks(4)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 06:14
This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spaciousmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 06:26
As a progger in UK and Germany, I can say that Zappa, Beefheart, Canned Heat, Mountain, Alice Cooper, Edgar & Johnny Winter, Allman Brothers, Ted Nugent, BTO, Blue Oyster, Creedence, Grand Funk and quite a few more all made their way into your collection and were played right alongside with your British and German stuff.

I don't think we ever bothered too much about distinct segregations back then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 06:48
I think the main reason is cultural. The influences in Europe seem, at least to me, to be more from a classic tradition that expands generations. In America, the top industrial country of that era, things were on a different platform. 

Edited by Manuel - March 24 2021 at 09:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 08:18
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.
A stretch or not, the point is that while the UK was basked in Piper At The Gates, Days Of Future Past, and ItCotCK, the US had The Beat Goes On by Vanilla Fudge, Freak Out! by the Mothers and the eponymous debut by The United States Of America. Symphonic/psych vs Avant/experimental/RIO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 08:36
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
btw Happy The Man came out in '73....and I consider them more proggy than Kansas.


Edited by dr wu23 - March 24 2021 at 08:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 08:43
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. There really wasn't an 'early US prog rock' movement per se.
"...the point is that while the UK was basked in Piper At The Gates, Days Of Future Past, and ItCotCK, the US had The Beat Goes On by Vanilla Fudge, Freak Out! by the Mothers and the eponymous debut by The United States Of America. Symphonic/psych vs Avant/experimental/RIO."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 09:53
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

This seems a stretch, Zappa & Beefheart were never part of an 'early American prog movement' the way Crimson, Yes, Genesis, ELP were in the UK. Zappa & Beefheart were unique anomalies plowing their own paths. Most of the early American prog albums are more of a Fusion approach to jazz, Davis, Weather Report, BS&T, Chicago. Proggy prog in the USA probably started with Kansas in '74.

Have to agree with you. Regardless of whether Zappa and Beefheart were around at the same time as the early British prog movement, they were never part of an equivalent early US prog movement. There was an early US prog movement, but it began a few years later, and that is perhaps a better point of comparison and contrast? 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:04
Oh, this is fun. Does a few disparate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the disparate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 10:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:09
If nothing else you've prompted me to check out The United States Of America. Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:11
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

If nothing else you've prompted me to check out The United States Of America. Thumbs Up
Good for you. Experimental without the dated 60s psychedelic baggage. Unless you're high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:18
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, this is fun. Does a few desperate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the desperate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

Er...I think you meant disparate....Wink
but at any rate, were those groups you cited attempting early prog rock or just also being  different ?
This whole thing about early prog again gets very murky.


Edited by dr wu23 - March 24 2021 at 10:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:20
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.

Hi,

I always thought that a lot of it was the American Educational System ... the "arts" in America, simply does not have the incredible history that Europe has had for 500 years ... it's like American "arts" are nearly non-existent ... and were intentionally dropped out.

I suppose that in Literature, is the one area that survived very well going back past 200 years, and it has only been in the past 50 years that American Literature has been ignored due to the media fame about selling and such ... pulp garbage has won out since the media is owned by the same people posting the "results" of the sales!

I think, that in the end, this will end up being 2 completely different things ... it's really hard to compare some of the American Spirit (let's say Miles) ... to what the English did, which had a lot of "individuality", however, it was very clearly setup within a compositional design and setup ... and always fell into the usual rock thing of the opening theme returning in some form ... I have to listen to some of the Americans from the 50's that became huge in the 60's, but I don't remember them coming up with a "song" for mat, and specially the jazz at that time, and even a lot of the rock stuff out of SF. It wasn't about the "song" or the "composition" ... it was about the feel and the music ... 

As Jim says ... when the music is over ... and you know that has to be the feel ... or its not worth discussing.

FZ, is another story. I think that him having started as a bit of a satire, but being intelligent enough to recognize and learn music quickly, he was capable and able to do "more" with his material ... but no one says that there was "great music" in his first few albums ... later, there are so many albums that it's hard to determine. I consider FZ an anomaly ... in American music ... and STILL IS ... his work is not taken seriously except a few albums by (obviously!!!) rock fans!


Edited by moshkito - March 24 2021 at 10:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:25
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, this is fun. Does a few desperate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the desperate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

Er...I think you meant disparate....Wink
but at any rate, were those groups you cited attempting early prog rock or just also being  different ?
This whole thing about early prog again gets very murky.
Thanks, Doug. Because of my disability, I use a voice encoder for these posts. It doesn't always encode what you say, unfortunately. I can only go by what PA deems as prog or proto prog, and they're all listed here.

Edited by SteveG - March 24 2021 at 10:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 10:33
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

The American spirit is more iconoclastic and revolutionary, for better or worse. Hence, there wasn’t a strong impulse to draw on older traditions in American music. There was rather an impulse to be individualistic for individualism’s sake.

Hi,

I always thought that a lot of it was the American Educational System ... the "arts" in America, simply does not have the incredible history that Europe has had for 500 years ... it's like American "arts" are nearly non-existent ... and were intentionally dropped out.

I suppose that in Literature, is the one area that survived very well going back past 200 years, and it has only been in the past 50 years that American Literature has been ignored due to the media fame about selling and such ... pulp garbage has won out since the media is owned by the same people posting the "results" of the sales!

I think, that in the end, this will end up being 2 completely different things ... it's really hard to compare some of the American Spirit (let's say Miles) ... to what the English did, which had a lot of "individuality", however, it was very clearly setup within a compositional design and setup ... and always fell into the usual rock thing of the opening theme returning in some form ... I have to listen to some of the Americans from the 50's that became huge in the 60's, but I don't remember them coming up with a "song" for mat, and specially the jazz at that time, and even a lot of the rock stuff out of SF. It wasn't about the "song" or the "composition" ... it was about the feel and the music ... 

As Jim says ... when the music is over ... and you know that has to be the feel ... or its not worth discussing.

FZ, is another story. I think that him having started as a bit of a satire, but being intelligent enough to recognize and learn music quickly, he was capable and able to do "more" with his material ... but no one says that there was "great music" in his first few albums ... later, there are so many albums that it's hard to determine. I consider FZ an anomaly ... in American music ... and STILL IS ... his work is not taken seriously except a few albums by (obviously!!!) rock fans!
I would definitely agree that the "arts" are not paramount in American education and even if it was, it would be Norman Rockwell over Picasso.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, this is fun. Does a few disparate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the disparate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

 
I guess it depends what you think is disparate? It’s all subjective, and all depends on what measure you are judging how disparate or not either of the two scenes were. But I think there was an early US prog movement, that simply occurred a little later than the UK prog movement. The US prog movement perhaps doesn’t appear as much of a movement, purely because the progressive rock scene (for all that it was appreciated overseas), was a mainly Europe and especially British (and British Commonwealth) phenomenon. There are a number of reasons that have been given for why there was not as overt a movement in the US. Geographically, the smaller area of the UK allowed a lot more cross-pollination and appreciation, while the US bands pretty much remained in their own pockets. US musicians also tended to have a blues background, while Europeans were often more likely to be influenced by classical music. This can even be seen in the pre/proto prog of psychedelic music. There is often a distinct difference in sound and influence between UK and US psychedelia. The music industries were also quite different within the UK and US.

Regardless, I think there is a generally agreed upon (but by no means definite or inarguable) early Uk prog movement (from around 1969 to 1973?). The equivalent in the US is more from, say 1973-1977, with bands like Dixie Dregs, Happy the Man, Journey, Kansas, Starcastle, Styx, etc. You could call them disparate, but I’m not convinced they’re any more disparate than the big six of UK prog? 🤷🏻‍♂️

I don’t think there is really much crossover between the early UK and US prog scenes, with the latter more or less taking off once the former had already peaked.

For the record, the early NZ prog scene took place around the same time as the early US prog scene, but had a sound far more similar to the early UK prog scene! 😜


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2021 at 11:06
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Oh, this is fun. Does a few desperate early seventies groups like Icarus and Happy The Man constitute a movement anymore than the desperate groups of Zappa/Mothers, Silver Apples, or USoA that came a few years earlier. If so, please explain. 

Er...I think you meant disparate....Wink
but at any rate, were those groups you cited attempting early prog rock or just also being  different ?
This whole thing about early prog again gets very murky.
Thanks, Doug. Because of my disability, I use a voice encoder for these posts. It doesn't always encode what you say, unfortunately. I can only go by what PA deems as prog or proto prog, and they're all listed here.

I'm on the same page for the most part but since when have you or I ever agreed with all the categories and bands here?  Wink
On the 'early prog style'...maybe the cool US bands were more influenced by blues rock and west coast styles and the Brit bands by classical music and European sounds....? ( I noticed nick said basically the same thing above.....)Smile


Edited by dr wu23 - March 24 2021 at 11:07
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