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The secret of some of Genesis's best pieces?
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Braka1 View Drop Down
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Points: 1171 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Braka1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 27 2020 at 11:44
Originally posted by Loftcolour Loftcolour wrote:

A couple of years ago I asked the forum for recommendations for particular types of instrumental - I described them as "a complex, repetitive bass line and a wide-ranging or noodly melodic line". I got some great answers - thank you. 

It turns out that there's a name for what I was after: pedal point groove. The term was coined by Mark Spicer and here's how he defines it in an article on Foxtrot by Genesis:

"In a pedal-point groove, the bass and drums work together to create a driving rhythmic ostinato ... where, from a harmonic standpoint, the bass remains static on the tonic as chords move above the bass at varying speeds... By the late 1970s and early 1980s, pedal-point grooves such as this had become a well-worn cliché of progressive rock as they had of funk (think James Brown’s Sex Machine), and were already making frequent appearances in more commercial styles such as stadium rock (think Van Halen’s Jump) and
synth-pop (think Frankie Goes to Hollywood’s Relax). Yet despite the cliché, Genesis in my
opinion remain the masters of the pedal-point groove."  

These grooves appear in many of my favourite musical passages by Genesis and others: the second half of The Cinema Show, Apocalypse in 9/8, Riding the Scree, the best bit of Ommadawn, Kashmir, Seal's Crazy, and many many more. I've also realised that simple pedal points themselves (where a tone is sustained in the bass while the harmonies can become dissonant) are a feature of some of my favourite classical pieces.

It's so cool to have it confirmed as an actual thing. More examples always welcome - now I can explain what I'm looking for!


Oh, it's got a name?  I used to use that principal all the time when I was writing. If you play keyboards you're going to stumble over it sooner or later.  First example I thought of just now when I tried to think of some in rock was the part of 'Red Barchetta' by Rush, from 'Wind in my hair..."  Except those chords aren't really discordant with the bass note. But that got me thinking, and I realised you don't just get that in classical structures; you get it heaps in blues. 

How about 'When the Levee Breaks' by Led Zep. The harmonica part (and later the vocal melody) are in discord with the root note nearly all the time. It's what gives the song a lot of its tension and drama. This feeling (at least to me) that the harp is almost combatively slashing across the key, which wants to pull it back into line. 

Unless I've wandered way off what you were talking about :)

Believe me Pope Paul, my toes are clean
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richardh View Drop Down
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Points: 29607 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 28 2020 at 00:12
Tony Banks was probably the best composer/musician of the era although Howe and Emerson run him close imo.
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FatherChristmas View Drop Down
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Agreed.
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Loftcolour View Drop Down
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Points: 23 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Loftcolour Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2020 at 09:43
"The harmonica part (and later the vocal melody) are in discord with the root note nearly all the time. It's what gives the song a lot of its tension and drama. This feeling (at least to me) that the harp is almost combatively slashing across the key, which wants to pull it back into line."

Yes! The tension and drama you mention are EXACTLY what I get from these pieces. The melody and harmonics fighting to get away from the bass line, and always being pulled back.


Edited by Loftcolour - July 02 2020 at 09:46
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