The secret of some of Genesis's best pieces?
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=123313
Printed Date: March 06 2025 at 13:43
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Topic: The secret of some of Genesis's best pieces?
Posted By: Loftcolour
Subject: The secret of some of Genesis's best pieces?
Date Posted: June 24 2020 at 05:21
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A couple of years ago I asked the forum for recommendations for particular types of instrumental - I described them as "a complex, repetitive bass line and a wide-ranging or noodly melodic line". http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=112393&PN=1" rel="nofollow - I got some great answers - thank you. It turns out that there's a name for what I was after: pedal point groove. The term was coined by Mark Spicer and here's how he defines it in http://www-3.unipv.it/britishrock1966-1976/pdf/spicereng.pdf" rel="nofollow - an article on Foxtrot by Genesis: "In a pedal-point groove, the bass and drums work together to create a driving rhythmic ostinato ... where, from a harmonic standpoint, the bass remains static on the tonic as chords move above the bass at varying speeds... By the late 1970s and early 1980s, pedal-point grooves such as this had become a well-worn cliché of progressive rock as they had of funk (think James Brown’s Sex Machine), and were already making frequent appearances in more commercial styles such as stadium rock (think Van Halen’s Jump) and synth-pop (think Frankie Goes to Hollywood’s Relax). Yet despite the cliché, Genesis in my opinion remain the masters of the pedal-point groove." These grooves appear in many of my favourite musical passages by Genesis and others: the second half of The Cinema Show, Apocalypse in 9/8, Riding the Scree, the best bit of Ommadawn, Kashmir, Seal's Crazy, and many many more. I've also realised that simple pedal points themselves (where a tone is sustained in the bass while the harmonies can become dissonant) are a feature of some of my favourite classical pieces. It's so cool to have it confirmed as an actual thing. More examples always welcome - now I can explain what I'm looking for!
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Replies:
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: June 24 2020 at 12:48
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Often Genesis songs have short typical minor/major pop chords sequences (albeit played folky) that get interrupted by untypical placed chords, that would otherwise be more likely to appear in a jazz piece. Like in jazz-pieces the off-scale chord sequences are constructed so that they do eventually lead to the root chords in a pleasing way. The unexpected chord often adds to the majestic feel, whereas the poppy parts work to engage the listener emotionally. Songs often shuffle between imminent/darker parts in minor to mellow major parts. ------------- I'm guitarist and songwriter for the prog-related band Mother Bass. Find us at http://www.motherbass.com. I also enter stages throughout the Netherlands performing my poetry. |
Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: June 24 2020 at 12:57
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I see it as technical but not flash and wild improvisational melodies. Atmosphere and supportive band members. But not tied to a formulaic atmosphere. The ultimate in knowing when to play and when to support. Even in their pop phase, it still sounded Genesis whatever sound of the keyboards. I can hear Firth of Fifth in Jesus He Knows Me. It's not the Firth of Fifth piano riff, but it's echo in its much simpler keyboard riff. Basically Genesis really were the greatest and it's taken me long enough to get to this acceptance. |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: June 24 2020 at 18:25
| Genesis is one of my fav bands because they groove--so does Yes---I can take prog bands that don't of course but my fav ones always do---and genesis is on top of the list... |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: June 24 2020 at 19:25
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The combination of intricate music where the whole band contributes and strong melodies is a key factor.  ------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: Hrychu
Date Posted: June 24 2020 at 20:11
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Rick Beato's talked about this several times. ------------- “On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.” — Ernest Vong |
Posted By: Awesoreno
Date Posted: June 25 2020 at 00:27
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I have noticed this, and often employ it when writing music. In fact I just wrote something today with a friend (he was writing the lyrics to a concept I had thought of) that uses a pedal-point groove at one point. It also uses a lot of those Banksian style chord. I have particularly noticed that Banks likes the sound of a five over one chord (for example: G major triad over C, or Cmaj7sus2, if you will), and I am guilty of using it. That sound and pedals appear a lot in Hackett's solo work as well. One of these days I'll get my music up here for you all, once we record it...
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 25 2020 at 04:09
The secret? It's just good music.  ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Mormegil
Date Posted: June 25 2020 at 04:41
THIS!!!! ------------- Welcome to the middle of the film. |
SteveG wrote:Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 25 2020 at 05:57
Yup, but too bad the recording (production) of these albums are so imperfect. It's always a bit cringe-inducung putting Cryme, Foxtrot and SEBTP on after a Floyd or Supertramp album. I mean sonically they're so awkward. Does anyone else feel that way? |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: June 25 2020 at 06:23
I don't have a problem with SEBTP, I think the production is excellent. NC and Foxtrot not so good, especially the drum sound on NC but I've just got used to it now.
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 25 2020 at 07:04
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^ Hmm. One of those rare cases where the music makes up for the production? ------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 26 2020 at 02:49
OK, point taken, though one of the reasons why I did WTF when I bought SEBTP as my third album (after COTC and DSOTM) was the sonics on the album, especially with Moonlit Knight... Difficult to hold up against two of the very best (repectively the best of Parsons and Ken Scott). But the whole sounded so weird that I didn't buy more Genesis until I did with Trick (yep, I was even "tricked"  into FGTR) that clicked in right away, and within three months, I think I bought everything from them. But I still cringe a bit today when i (rarely) insert one of those albums in my CD deck... It's something that no remastering or remixing will fix. Of course, this whasn't stopped me from playing mu-y vinyls to transparency afterwards. |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: June 26 2020 at 07:16
I also agree that SEBTP is decent enough in it's original form. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: twosteves
Date Posted: June 26 2020 at 07:37
love production of SEBTP think its magic-- but do agree and have always thought the production on NC and Foxtrot are bad production and both these amazing albums suffer from it---compared to Yes or Pink F of the same period.
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Posted By: Jaketejas
Date Posted: June 26 2020 at 09:19
| Look at how innovative they were. The solo on Dancing with the Moonlit Knight featured not one, but two innovative guitar techniques that really moved rock music forward. The first is two handed tapping, later popularized by Van Halen, Jeff Watson and others, and the other is sweep picking, developed most notably by Yngwie Malmsteen / Steve Vai / Tony Macalpine and then later by people like Paul Gilbert, Bruce Bouillet, and Vinnie Moore. Now it should be pointed out that jazz guitarists used these techniques before this, but Steve Hackett was among the first to apply them to rock. To have both in one solo at that point in time was highly creative. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: June 26 2020 at 11:41
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My guess is lots of drugs! -------------  https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 26 2020 at 18:29
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Genesis were one of the most democratic of bands both in their compositional credits and their
instrumental writing. This is abundantly illustrated on something like Cinema Show where no single individual
dominates as the 'spotlight soloist' over the rest. All the band are employed in the creation of a
multi layered and ever changing dynamic 'whole' and this set them apart from so many of their
contemporaries. The overriding priority here is always melodic whether in statement or enhancement
and of all the Prog giants it was perhaps Genesis who were least guilty of virtuosity as a end in
itself. (You mean they don't disappear up their own backsides on the solos?) Yep. ------------- 
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Posted By: Frenetic Zetetic
Date Posted: June 27 2020 at 01:54
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Tony Banks. ------------- "I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: June 27 2020 at 02:01
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Posted By: Braka1
Date Posted: June 27 2020 at 11:44
Oh, it's got a name? I used to use that principal all the time when I was writing. If you play keyboards you're going to stumble over it sooner or later. First example I thought of just now when I tried to think of some in rock was the part of 'Red Barchetta' by Rush, from 'Wind in my hair..." Except those chords aren't really discordant with the bass note. But that got me thinking, and I realised you don't just get that in classical structures; you get it heaps in blues. How about 'When the Levee Breaks' by Led Zep. The harmonica part (and later the vocal melody) are in discord with the root note nearly all the time. It's what gives the song a lot of its tension and drama. This feeling (at least to me) that the harp is almost combatively slashing across the key, which wants to pull it back into line. Unless I've wandered way off what you were talking about :) ------------- Believe me Pope Paul, my toes are clean |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 28 2020 at 00:12
| Tony Banks was probably the best composer/musician of the era although Howe and Emerson run him close imo. |
Posted By: FatherChristmas
Date Posted: July 01 2020 at 12:05
| Agreed. |
Posted By: Loftcolour
Date Posted: July 02 2020 at 09:43
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"The harmonica part (and later the vocal melody) are in discord with the root note nearly all the time. It's what gives the song a lot of its tension and drama. This feeling (at least to me) that the harp is almost combatively slashing across the key, which wants to pull it back into line." Yes! The tension and drama you mention are EXACTLY what I get from these pieces. The melody and harmonics fighting to get away from the bass line, and always being pulled back.
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