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Steven Wilson's Ancestral |
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Chino Rafa 
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Joined: November 26 2018 Location: Salamanca Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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 Topic: Steven Wilson's AncestralPosted: November 26 2018 at 12:46 |
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Hi, has anyone noticed that the song Ancestral from Steven Wilson's Hand.Cannot.Erase has the same bass notes than ELP's Knife Edge???
I have been thinking about it as soon as i heard the album, but just made the comparison!!! |
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Tom Ozric
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Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15926 |
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Posted: November 26 2018 at 13:28 |
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One of Wilson’s ‘Top 5’ in my books. I never noticed, but thinking about it, similar, but different phrasing. An absolutely bonkers track - the band go nuts when they perform it live.
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Dellinger
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Posted: November 26 2018 at 19:59 |
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I had noticed that section that I could swear was a rip-off from ELP, but couldn't point out which song, and hadn't made the time to check them out and compare in order to get it, so now I know. It's a great song, anyway, my favourite from the album, and the one that really is up to the greatness of the previous album. In a way, Ayreon (or rather, Emerson himself) did just about the same in the Theory of Everything album, just in the part that Emerson himself played. I thought he could have come up with something new at least.
Edited by Dellinger - November 26 2018 at 20:00 |
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Catcher10
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Posted: November 27 2018 at 01:15 |
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ELP influenced a lot of bands and music styles, there is nothing wrong with it in my book. I am sure that Beggs, even in his Kajagoogoo days, was influenced by Greg Lake.
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Tom Ozric
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Posted: November 27 2018 at 02:24 |
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Meltdowner
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Posted: November 27 2018 at 02:26 |
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Not as obvious as Siberian Khatru's Mellotron on Luminol.
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SteveG
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Posted: November 27 2018 at 04:10 |
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No surprises here. I always likened Hand. Cannot. Erase. to some kind of reanimated Frankenstein's monster of prog.
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Squonk19
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Posted: November 27 2018 at 15:04 |
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A great track, and definitely a hint of Knife Edge from Beggs there later on - although differences in phrasing as has been pointed out. A nice live version on the new Home Invasion release as well (followed by Arriving Somewhere But Not Here, immediately afterwards - a great one-two!)
Of course Steven Wilson has always wore his influences on his sleeve at times - Time Flies and the similarity with the guitar riffs of Sheep by Pink Floyd have been well flagged up in the past......although Airbag seemed influenced by both bands on the All Rights Reserved track a couple of years later. |
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“Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.”
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moshkito
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Posted: November 27 2018 at 16:47 |
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Hi,
In the concert here in Portland his last time out (Hand Cannot Erase) he made it clear he thought Prince was one of America's best composers! Nick Beggs use of the bass is, to my ears, not anywhere near Greg's or Chris' ... unless he is using the big shtick, and has that monster sound, that even SW can not improve on. Weird to think that someone tends to copy someone else ... I can understand that when we are kids and learning, but Nick is hardly a copy since he has grown up and his variety of work would suggest that he can not worry about his "idols" ... and needs to concentrate on the music. He is, in my estimation, the main reason why SW is sounding so strong and I do not think that too many others could have done any better ... SW's music design is rather simplistic for my tastes and based on his guitar and voice only. Too much of the rest is in the background, and this is the part that made PT better ... they were all strong, and helped make a better SW, but sadly, that band is no more, and I doubt that a drummer will want to do SW again, after spending so much time with the likes of Robert Fripp and Tony Levin, and some folks that are ... massive in their musical abilities.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Dellinger
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Posted: November 27 2018 at 21:40 |
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I hadn't pointed that one as such either... it just sounded so Yes-like, but it didn't really remind me any particular song. It rather made me think of Drama. That's an interesting song, with Yes sounds and King Crimson ones too, with some particular take on Scarcity of Miracles. |
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Meltdowner
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Posted: November 28 2018 at 02:47 |
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chopper
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Posted: November 28 2018 at 04:40 |
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Knife Edge isn't original anyway -
"Knife Edge" is based on the first movement of Leoš Janáček's Sinfonietta (1926)[9] with an instrumental middle section that includes an extended quotation from the Allemande of Johann Sebastian Bach's first French Suite in D minor, BWV 812, but played on an organ rather than clavichord or piano.
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moshkito
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Posted: November 28 2018 at 06:26 |
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That's too "educated" for a place like this CHOPPER!   I was going to add something to the other thread about boring ... that folks don't go to classical music to cheer and get stoned ... and ELP's PICTURES AT AN EXHIBITION ... would have been so boring for a rock audience that all your information would be worthless and ignored by everyone else. I, honestly, think that INSPIRATION is a great thing ... and there is that one inet clip of Keith playing his version of something to an old composer and he could not make anything of it ... the sound and depth of the synthesizer was too much for him, I think. But it was a wonderful interpretation ... however, I think that most folks here would have found it "very generic and boring!" AND, if there was information on it, even worse! Pop music with meaning? Wow ... what have we come to ... I think the loo is in order!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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SteveG
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Posted: November 28 2018 at 07:07 |
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I never thought that quoting Wikipedia was considered too educated. Times have sure changed.
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chopper
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Posted: November 28 2018 at 07:50 |
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Actually I thought it was fairly well known, at least amongst ELP fans, that Knife Edge wasn't entirely original.
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Dellinger
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Posted: November 28 2018 at 21:09 |
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The one I was thinking about is the very beginning of the song. That bass just screams Yes... and it particularly reminds me of something on Drama. |
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Tom Ozric
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Posted: November 28 2018 at 22:37 |
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^ Maybe Tempus Fugit. But not so close.
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Dellinger
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Posted: November 29 2018 at 21:35 |
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^ I guess so. I mean, it just reminds me of it, not like it was a rip-off, but rather influenced by.
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infandous
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Posted: November 30 2018 at 11:01 |
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Well, for Time Flies Wilson came right out and said he ripped off Dogs ("Gotta admit, that I'm a little bit confused") while changing it just enough to not get sued (his words). Another section of that song is a rip off of Sheep, as you point out. So that's not a great example because he was actually trying to recreate the feel of the Animals album on that track, as he has said for many years Animals was a huge influence on him when he was younger. |
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Squonk19
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Posted: November 30 2018 at 14:31 |
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^ I do like the track, even though it is indeed a homage to 'Animals' in places. I actually quite like it when an artist hints at their influences, without completely ripping them off. I think Steven Wilson survives that charge. Not sure if Greta Van Fleet could say the same (enjoyable though their Zep-influenced debut is).
The best, and most explicit homage related to SW, is PTTee by DeeExpus, which incorporates snippets from several PT songs as it recounts a PT concert attended by the songwriter. Contains once of the best riffs ever in its introduction section (at full volume, of course). I feel the hint of 'Knife Edge' in Ancestral could actually be purely coincidental, as the bass phrasing is not uncommon. However, if it was included in a 'knowing' way, then fair enough. Most Hammond organ runs still sound like Emerson or Lord to these old ears! |
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Catcher10 wrote: