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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=117861 Printed Date: March 09 2025 at 16:48 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Steven Wilson's AncestralPosted By: Chino Rafa
Subject: Steven Wilson's Ancestral
Date Posted: November 26 2018 at 12:46
Hi, has anyone noticed that the song Ancestral from Steven Wilson's Hand.Cannot.Erase has the same bass notes than ELP's Knife Edge???
I have been thinking about it as soon as i heard the album, but just made the comparison!!!
Replies: Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 26 2018 at 13:28
One of Wilson’s ‘Top 5’ in my books. I never noticed, but thinking about it, similar, but different phrasing. An absolutely bonkers track - the band go nuts when they perform it live.
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 26 2018 at 19:59
I had noticed that section that I could swear was a rip-off from ELP, but couldn't point out which song, and hadn't made the time to check them out and compare in order to get it, so now I know. It's a great song, anyway, my favourite from the album, and the one that really is up to the greatness of the previous album. In a way, Ayreon (or rather, Emerson himself) did just about the same in the Theory of Everything album, just in the part that Emerson himself played. I thought he could have come up with something new at least.
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 27 2018 at 01:15
ELP influenced a lot of bands and music styles, there is nothing wrong with it in my book. I am sure that Beggs, even in his Kajagoogoo days, was influenced by Greg Lake.
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Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 27 2018 at 02:24
Catcher10 wrote:
ELP influenced a lot of bands and music styles, there is nothing wrong with it in my book. I am sure that Beggs, even in his Kajagoogoo days, was influenced by Greg Lake.
Beggs idolised Chris Squire since he was a teenager. And most likely Lake as well
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: November 27 2018 at 02:26
Not as obvious as Siberian Khatru's Mellotron on Luminol.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 27 2018 at 04:10
No surprises here. I always likened Hand. Cannot. Erase. to some kind of reanimated Frankenstein's monster of prog.
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Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: November 27 2018 at 15:04
A great track, and definitely a hint of Knife Edge from Beggs there later on - although differences in phrasing as has been pointed out. A nice live version on the new Home Invasion release as well (followed by Arriving Somewhere But Not Here, immediately afterwards - a great one-two!)
Of course Steven Wilson has always wore his influences on his sleeve at times - Time Flies and the similarity with the guitar riffs of Sheep by Pink Floyd have been well flagged up in the past......although Airbag seemed influenced by both bands on the All Rights Reserved track a couple of years later.
------------- “Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.”
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 27 2018 at 16:47
Hi,
In the concert here in Portland his last time out (Hand Cannot Erase) he made it clear he thought Prince was one of America's best composers!
Nick Beggs use of the bass is, to my ears, not anywhere near Greg's or Chris' ... unless he is using the big shtick, and has that monster sound, that even SW can not improve on.
Weird to think that someone tends to copy someone else ... I can understand that when we are kids and learning, but Nick is hardly a copy since he has grown up and his variety of work would suggest that he can not worry about his "idols" ... and needs to concentrate on the music. He is, in my estimation, the main reason why SW is sounding so strong and I do not think that too many others could have done any better ... SW's music design is rather simplistic for my tastes and based on his guitar and voice only. Too much of the rest is in the background, and this is the part that made PT better ... they were all strong, and helped make a better SW, but sadly, that band is no more, and I doubt that a drummer will want to do SW again, after spending so much time with the likes of Robert Fripp and Tony Levin, and some folks that are ... massive in their musical abilities.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 27 2018 at 21:40
Meltdowner wrote:
Not as obvious as Siberian Khatru's Mellotron on Luminol.
I hadn't pointed that one as such either... it just sounded so Yes-like, but it didn't really remind me any particular song. It rather made me think of Drama. That's an interesting song, with Yes sounds and King Crimson ones too, with some particular take on Scarcity of Miracles.
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: November 28 2018 at 02:47
Dellinger wrote:
Meltdowner wrote:
Not as obvious as Siberian Khatru's Mellotron on Luminol.
I hadn't pointed that one as such either... it just sounded so Yes-like, but it didn't really remind me any particular song. It rather made me think of Drama. That's an interesting song, with Yes sounds and King Crimson ones too, with some particular take on Scarcity of Miracles.
I don't mean that Mellotron-heavy part near the end, just that sequence of chords that is repeated twice before, it's exactly the same and the context is similar as well.
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 28 2018 at 04:40
Knife Edge isn't original anyway -
"Knife Edge" is based on the first movement of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo%C5%A1_Jan%C3%A1%C4%8Dek" rel="nofollow - - Sinfonietta (1926) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerson,_Lake_%26_Palmer_%28album%29#cite_note-macan-9" rel="nofollow - - Johann Sebastian Bach 's first https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Suites_%28Bach%29#Structure" rel="nofollow -
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 28 2018 at 06:26
chopper wrote:
Knife Edge isn't original anyway -
"Knife Edge" is based on the first movement of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo%C5%A1_Jan%C3%A1%C4%8Dek" rel="nofollow - - Sinfonietta (1926) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerson,_Lake_%26_Palmer_%28album%29#cite_note-macan-9" rel="nofollow - - Johann Sebastian Bach 's first https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Suites_%28Bach%29#Structure" rel="nofollow -
I was going to add something to the other thread about boring ... that folks don't go to classical music to cheer and get stoned ... and ELP's PICTURES AT AN EXHIBITION ... would have been so boring for a rock audience that all your information would be worthless and ignored by everyone else.
I, honestly, think that INSPIRATION is a great thing ... and there is that one inet clip of Keith playing his version of something to an old composer and he could not make anything of it ... the sound and depth of the synthesizer was too much for him, I think. But it was a wonderful interpretation ... however, I think that most folks here would have found it "very generic and boring!"
AND, if there was information on it, even worse! Pop music with meaning? Wow ... what have we come to ... I think the loo is in order!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 28 2018 at 07:07
I never thought that quoting Wikipedia was considered too educated. Times have sure changed.
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: November 28 2018 at 07:50
SteveG wrote:
I never thought that quoting Wikipedia was considered too educated. Times have sure changed.
Actually I thought it was fairly well known, at least amongst ELP fans, that Knife Edge wasn't entirely original.
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 28 2018 at 21:09
Meltdowner wrote:
Dellinger wrote:
Meltdowner wrote:
Not as obvious as Siberian Khatru's Mellotron on Luminol.
I hadn't pointed that one as such either... it just sounded so Yes-like, but it didn't really remind me any particular song. It rather made me think of Drama. That's an interesting song, with Yes sounds and King Crimson ones too, with some particular take on Scarcity of Miracles.
I don't mean that Mellotron-heavy part near the end, just that sequence of chords that is repeated twice before, it's exactly the same and the context is similar as well.
The one I was thinking about is the very beginning of the song. That bass just screams Yes... and it particularly reminds me of something on Drama.
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 28 2018 at 22:37
^ Maybe Tempus Fugit. But not so close.
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 29 2018 at 21:35
^ I guess so. I mean, it just reminds me of it, not like it was a rip-off, but rather influenced by.
Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: November 30 2018 at 11:01
Squonk19 wrote:
A great track, and definitely a hint of Knife Edge from Beggs there later on - although differences in phrasing as has been pointed out. A nice live version on the new Home Invasion release as well (followed by Arriving Somewhere But Not Here, immediately afterwards - a great one-two!)
Of course Steven Wilson has always wore his influences on his sleeve at times - Time Flies and the similarity with the guitar riffs of Sheep by Pink Floyd have been well flagged up in the past......although Airbag seemed influenced by both bands on the All Rights Reserved track a couple of years later.
Well, for Time Flies Wilson came right out and said he ripped off Dogs ("Gotta admit, that I'm a little bit confused") while changing it just enough to not get sued (his words). Another section of that song is a rip off of Sheep, as you point out. So that's not a great example because he was actually trying to recreate the feel of the Animals album on that track, as he has said for many years Animals was a huge influence on him when he was younger.
Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: November 30 2018 at 14:31
^ I do like the track, even though it is indeed a homage to 'Animals' in places. I actually quite like it when an artist hints at their influences, without completely ripping them off. I think Steven Wilson survives that charge. Not sure if Greta Van Fleet could say the same (enjoyable though their Zep-influenced debut is).
The best, and most explicit homage related to SW, is PTTee by DeeExpus, which incorporates snippets from several PT songs as it recounts a PT concert attended by the songwriter. Contains once of the best riffs ever in its introduction section (at full volume, of course).
I feel the hint of 'Knife Edge' in Ancestral could actually be purely coincidental, as the bass phrasing is not uncommon. However, if it was included in a 'knowing' way, then fair enough. Most Hammond organ runs still sound like Emerson or Lord to these old ears!
------------- “Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.”
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 30 2018 at 18:24
Squonk19 wrote:
...
Most Hammond organ runs still sound like Emerson or Lord to these old ears!
I think that you are only listening to the instrument, not to the player.
This, was one of the things that Rachel Flowers has done to Keith, and all of a sudden, his music stands out quite a bit, and the compositional side of his work, is very good, and I would like to see him considered one of the great composers around. All you have to do, is listen to Rachel do TARKUS on the piano alone, and if you do not hear a fantastic composer, I would think that it is not the music you are listening to.
Jon, has a lot of great things, though I really think that the majority of stuff with DP is not half as good as many other things, and in most cases, Jon's stuff is a filler to DP, not an individualistic piece that was added with 2 other guys to make something out of ELP ... which Rachel shows us, how strong, his material was ...
Keith is much more valuable to ELP, than Jon is to DP. so to speak ... the compositional side of things is very visible in ELP, and not so on DP, which was more enchanted with being a famous and LOUD rock band, than it was in creating great music as noted by their concert piece that was booed in America by audiences that hated it, and only wanted to hear 2 or 3 songs!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: Naglefar
Date Posted: November 30 2018 at 23:35
Excellent song. That is a very interesting observation, your ears must have excellent tonal recognition. This is certainly one of the bright spots on a sadly disappointing album, for me at least. Maybe it's just living in "The Raven.."s shadow, or perhaps the choiry, almost Christian rock vocals on some songs (i.e. S/T track).
Posted By: rminsk
Date Posted: December 01 2018 at 01:09
moshkito wrote:
All you have to do, is listen to Rachel do TARKUS on the piano alone, and if you do not hear a fantastic composer, I would think that it is not the music you are listening to.
Posted By: Squonk19
Date Posted: December 01 2018 at 02:32
^^ Moshkito - it was just a throwaway comment about how a Hammond organ sound can echo the work of others from the past. Of course different players bring something different to each composition they create, and each player is not defined solely by the sound of their instrument. The discussion of the skills of Keith Emerson and Rachel Flowers is interesting but is largely irrelevant to this topic as defined by the OP. My mistake, if my little, light-hearted, one-liner threatens to cause the thread to be derailed by others. I'll leave the irony out next time!
------------- “Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.”
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: December 01 2018 at 03:30
Digressing here, but Dave Stewart took the sounds of the Hammond into realms hitherto unezplored. And it’s the best sounding Hammond (and playing) that I’ve ever heard. No Jon Lord, no Emerson......
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 01 2018 at 07:14
Squonk19 wrote:
^^ Moshkito - it was just a throwaway comment about how a Hammond organ sound can echo the work of others from the past. Of course different players bring something different to each composition they create, and each player is not defined solely by the sound of their instrument. The discussion of the skills of Keith Emerson and Rachel Flowers is interesting but is largely irrelevant to this topic as defined by the OP. My mistake, if my little, light-hearted, one-liner threatens to cause the thread to be derailed by others. I'll leave the irony out next time!
With all due respect, the comment requested an open and honest discussion, and now you are calling it a "throwaway comment" .... and essentially disavowing that actual discussion of what you were hoping for, which, might have needed different words.
It is the biggest single issue I have with PA, sometimes, when people only go for the "sound" ... as in sounds like GENESIS, or sounds like ELP, or sounds like YES ... and so on, and the sad part of all that is that it takes away from the person actually playing the music.
Look, the Hammond was one of the few organs available to rock bands at the time, that sounded reasonable on a stage and did not require 1,000 minutes to tune up ... why would you NOT expect so many bands to have a similar sound to it? E. Power Biggs, even!
Your comment, is sad, for me, because now you are disavowing your interest in the music itself, as if it went a bit better and higher than you intended. The Hammond sound for you is more interesting than the music itself ... how weird!
Plz, at the very least, be honest and fair ... my comments were trying to help DEFINE what you stated, and instead, you took it personally, which was not the intent. And showing RF as an example, would immediately destroy your argument that Keith was all about the Hammond, and he wasn't as Rachel shows, but I'm not sure you have the ear to sit through a piano concerto like Rachel gives us, and that might be the real problem with your question ... all of a sudden that Hammond "sound" is gone, and you can not hear the music in it.
Many rock musicians of our days past, and future are as good if not better than any classical composer in the past 1000 years that our memory can define ... please allow Keith to stand up and show his work. By simplifying it and saying that Bach can only do harpsichords in 27 different keys, is really ... really! ... poor discussion of music altogether. Same for Jon, and many others!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: rminsk
Date Posted: December 02 2018 at 16:17
Talking about Keith compositions. Did you know he composed string quartets?
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 04 2018 at 07:25
rminsk wrote:
Talking about Keith compositions. Did you know he composed string quartets?
Yes, and I knew that 40 years ago, when most folks thought that some of that stuff he did was silly and stupid, and one reviewer in LA was upset that they had done some classical music in concert at the FORUM! Where Caeser died, of course ... oooppppssss ... real music was killed with the worst sound system EVER.
Nowadays, you only hear of his classical stuff by accident, and RF has done more than just a couple of his rock pieces. She has probably done more Keith Emerson than we will EVER know, or appreciate!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Catcher10 wrote:
