Roger Waters & middle East politics

javajeff wrote: octopus-4 wrote: My personal opinions: The occupation of Palestine is illegal and a violation of human rights. What laws are you referring to?  FYI:  We are just human beings living on this Molten ball of rock, and we do not really own anything.  The people that can defend land, gets the land.  Civilizations have fallen before.  What about animal rights?

So if someone broke into your house pointed a gun at you and said "this house is now mine, get out or die", you would be completely ok with that?

This thread needs moving to the General Discussions part of the site. It has moved beyond views on Waters to a good old fashioned argument about Israel and Palestine.

Nothing wrong with that at all, but not a Prog Lounge topic, IMO.

Anyway, my own ten penorth worth. Palestinians desperately need a leader, or leaders, with the vision, guts, and authority to be able to negotiate a lasting peace with a similarly minded Israeli government. It is worth reminding ourselves here that Israel is still the only true democracy in the Middle East, and, whilst I am not an admirer of Netanyahu, his continued stewardship, to my mind, stems from the fact that Israeli citizens, in large enough numbers, see him as a bulwark against terrorism. In other words, he is the product of the wider malaise in the region. A more reasonable Palestinian leadership might, just might, bring about a change in Israeli attitudes and see Benyamin as what he is, an old fashioned conservative with no interest whatsoever in reaching a genuine rapport. Of course, at present, there is absolutely nobody there who wants a genuine rapport.

Israel has a right to exist. It should also be repeated that there are many Israeli Palestinians who play a full part in Israeli culture, establishment, employment, in all respects barring military service. They enjoy the freedoms and riches which their citizenship bring. Is it too much to hope for that, one day, a maturation in politics on the other side of the fence might extend such rights to all in the sub-region?

The trouble here is that individuals such as Waters, and various organisations, do not help. They talk constantly of Palestinian "victim hood", without ever understanding that solidarity with working people under the cosh in Palestine extends equally to those in Israel having to put up with the constant threat of violence and death, extending, even, to the death of statehood.

In the UK, Blair (for all his faults), and, to give him due credit, his predecessor as Prime Minister, John Major, recognised that the thinking in nationalist and republican communities in Northern Ireland had changed. A maturation in the political thinking, with leaders prepared to think and talk, rather than bomb and kill, in that community offered the opportunity for peace. It was taken. It would have been easy for the UK to have battered the republicans into submission, which, at that stage, could have been done. They were tired, and battered.

That never happened. Both sides worked their backsides off for a peace process, and even dragged in Unionist stalwarts such as Ian Paisley, previously the antithesis of reason.

It is possible. Unfortunately, I cannot see this happening in the near future. In the interim, I will say this. Israel's existence as a state is a matter of fact. Rightly, by the way. They have every right to defend themselves against wanton aggression. The Palestinians need to grow up politically and seek some good old fashioned peace, with equal rights and participation in a mature political process.

The above comments are not from an immature political idealist, but rather those of someone who is tired of extremes on all sides of all political debates. We need to grow up, desperately. Not just in the Middle East, but across the world.

Edited by lazland - November 05 2016 at 12:31

tszirmay wrote: So I guess the Israelis need to pack up and leave ? In your opinion, they are just European colonists right? If so, you need to 1- read unbiased historical materials and not the 'news' 2- Travel to the Holy land and see for yourself.  This apartheid argument is the most laughable comment. Sagi lives there, ask him. He doesn't necessarily agree with his government but he has eyes, a sharp brain and great musical taste.  The occupation of Palestine is legal (called 'occupied territories' for a reason= war.). 1948 Israeli Independence was ratified by a UN majority, and there are no human rights violations at all, except rockets being lobbed by poor citizens in frustration.

If by unbiased you mean western imperialist ideology, then no thanks fam. I find it truly mind boggling people in this thread try to legitimize their positions by defending imperialism and war. Did I accidentally open Regressive Rock Archives?

So if someone Palestinian terrorist broke into your house pointed a gun at you and said "this house is now mine, get out or die", you would be completely ok with that?.

Terrorist orgs reacting to things like state sanctioned colonization of the west bank are definitely exactly the same as occupying forces, yup.

A Person wrote: tszirmay wrote: So I guess the Israelis need to pack up and leave ? In your opinion, they are just European colonists right? If so, you need to 1- read unbiased historical materials and not the 'news' 2- Travel to the Holy land and see for yourself.  This apartheid argument is the most laughable comment. Sagi lives there, ask him. He doesn't necessarily agree with his government but he has eyes, a sharp brain and great musical taste.  The occupation of Palestine is legal (called 'occupied territories' for a reason= war.). 1948 Israeli Independence was ratified by a UN majority, and there are no human rights violations at all, except rockets being lobbed by poor citizens in frustration. If by unbiased you mean western imperialist ideology, then no thanks fam. I find it truly mind boggling people in this thread try to legitimize their positions by defending imperialism and war. Did I accidentally open Regressive Rock Archives? So if someone Palestinian terrorist broke into your house pointed a gun at you and said "this house is now mine, get out or die", you would be completely ok with that?. Terrorist orgs reacting to things like state sanctioned colonization of the west bank are definitely exactly the same as occupying forces, yup.

Edited by tszirmay - November 05 2016 at 14:02

Laz you're definitely right, except for Netanyahu in the past 30 or 40 years Israel had many leaders who were willing to make peace and were willing to pay the cost, made realistic offers and a few crucial steps to build a foundation for a long term agreement. The problem was always the Palestinian leadership or the arab world getting in the way, they do not want to settle and does not accept the right for Israel to exist.