Roger Waters & middle East politics
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Topic: Roger Waters & middle East politics
Posted By: javajeff
Subject: Roger Waters & middle East politics
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 11:33
| It is hard to like a guy when he spreads hatred. I don't understand why these people get involved in politics. You would think they would be gracious of all fans. |
Replies:
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 11:38
Well, to be fair, he has been writing political songs for forty odd years, now. Floyd music, and his solo stuff, brim with political opinions. As a youth, I bought into Waters' lyrics in a big way, and still do, to a certain extent. I do, though, draw the line at his opinion of Israel, without ever denying his right to speak. I simply do not agree with him, and it is also, btw, one of the biggest reasons why I fell out of love with left wing politics. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
javajeff wrote:Posted By: Darious
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 11:43
|
True that. And I'm not listening to Roger Waters (whether he talks or plays) anymore. Not just because of his twisted political views, but simply because this guy hasn't got anything creative on offer at all. Let's not bother ourselves with him, he doesn't matter. ------------- Writing about truth is a little bit like getting your dick out in public and hoping no one laughs (Steve Hogarth) |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 11:46
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Agreed....I'm used to having to ignore the politics of my favorite artists....and many friends ;) And Darious....your signature  |
Posted By: Darious
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 11:48
Hah, I selfishly thought it only happened to me! Good to know others maintained their rationalism too.
------------- Writing about truth is a little bit like getting your dick out in public and hoping no one laughs (Steve Hogarth) |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 12:10
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Well, I'm still on the left side of political alignemnent, but I'm not sure what it has to do with Roger Waters and his unsollicited opinions about Israel. Anyway, when creating a thread about Roger Waters and his views about the Israeli/Palestinian non-stop fun since 1949, it could be useful to remember what he said and/or wrote... At least, it could be useful for me, since I haven't really read anything about that...  |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 12:34
I am still on the left side of political alignment. However, one of the biggest issues in modern left wing politics in Britain is the undying love for various Islamic causes, and undying hatred for anything to do with Israel, and it is, btw, anti Semitic, not anti Zionist. Waters has released a couple of songs which are, undoubtedly, anti Israel and lovingly pro Palestinian. He has refused to play in Israel. I contrast this with the incredible track Gaza, from Marillion's 2013 album, Sounds That Can't Be Made. This told the story of said territory from a child's perspective, and was incredibly even handed in its approach. Waters' approach is nothing like this. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: The Ghost
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 12:50
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Well he's a communist, so... |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 12:58
So communists normally opt to ally themselves with conservative religious fundamentalists? I've got to reread my Karl Marx. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 13:42
So should they, because it is a fact that modern day fundamental left wing activists, Trots, and the like, most certainly are allying themselves with an assortment of distasteful religious fundamentalists. The farcical "investigation" by Shami Chakrabarti (now Lady Chakrabarti) into anti Sematism in the Labour Partyis the latest in a long line of very sad occurrences in modern left wing politics. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 16:46
He seems to have attended a guided tour through the so-called Palestine areas that has ended somehow on the wrong side of the Anzio bridgehead. This initiated a sequence of tarnishing scenes that makes it a bit harder to cherish his earlier output. Too bad he has become one of the worms he once described by acting as a spokesman of the BDS movement.
Well, no one has ever mentioned Palestinians before 1964...
------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 16:51
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What bugs me is that it's so easy to criticize either Israel or its enemies. I mean really? Is that it? Is that all? Israel shouldn't do bad things? Give me a break, grow up, read a little history, and please tell me something new that you thought up all by yourself. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 16:56
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I understood Waters is standing for an oppressed people - Palestinians. He is against the actions of the Israeli government. As most regard all political views from an extremist view (which is not where real politics happen) he is thusly anti Semitic something which he denies and would be consistent with his humanistic principles. There is a lot of false equivalency assumptions and very easy to lock onto a simple view (the extremist paradigm). He probably should also include in his diatribes anti Syria, Jordan and Hamas all of whom back and conspire to put the Palestinian people in danger and create an anti Zion, anti-Semite, Anti Israel view. He should also note that Jews have been persecuted for millenia and under the modern state of Israel are now 100% determined that no holocaust shall happen again. That may mean killing others. The mix of religion (bloody beliefs above facts..!), extreme political stances (... again...) all fueled by irresponsible government who do not want any peace accord ever (sorry about the extreme view but this is abetted by the corporate interests profiting from perpetual war). I think his heart's in the right place but he's adopting extremist tactics (Star of David on a flying pig) that are causing ire among RW and PF fans. As usual the blame for deaths of civilian populations can be laid at the door of government. Perhaps he should push an anti-government agenda that promotes sacrifice of its own. It's not simple, easy but it is very dangerous. He links the Israeli government with Nazi views which has such an irony. He's fueling the fire. The PC left (UK in this instance) will via their own extremism create an environment for extreme right wing growth. Really, there is not too much of a difference. Passive aggression really brings out the worst in me. |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 17:05
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This seems like it would fit well here. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 17:23
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Zionism is actually anti-Judaism. Zionists use the Almighty's promise of the Holy Land, and at the same time they laugh in His face and violate His law. The Almighty commanded us to go into exile, and with three oaths forbade us to create our own country before the coming of the messiah, when the redemption of the world will take place and all mankind will willingly worship the One G-d. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 19:50
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Anti-Semitism about 5800 years old . Zionism about 150 . Wonder which came first? Hmmmmm! BTW Waters is not a communist , he is a rich opportunist and a poo disturber. He probably never visited the Holy land , and seen for himself the differences, which explains his simplistic and opportunistic views. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 19:52
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Being against the Israeli government and its occupation of Palestinian land is the only sensible position to have. I'd be very disappointed if he felt differently. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 19:56
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I am completely agree with the above. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 20:11
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Recently watched his The Wall stage show and fought his overly anti-Israel positioning on material that was never originally that way quite disturbing. Could amount to hatespeak. ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 20:22
Perhaps but you need to go there and see it for yourself , both sides have their fanatics but there are more-peace Israelis than any pro-peace movement in Arab all countries combined. I sadly, have visited the Holy Land as I choose to call it and I have an rather precise opinion based on what i had witnessed. Just sayin' in order to not be disappointed. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 20:43
 |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 20:55
My dear Vompatti, you funny creature , you. Have not seen Braveheart? Freedom. FREEEEEEEEDOOOOOM. C'mon, ya remember! Mel being torn apart in abject torture, screaming that infamous word. I would fight for my homeland if the cause is just. They haven't surrendered because they spend too much time at rock concerts and getting buzzed! Come back the next day with both hangover and feistiness. Its the neighborhood. Democratically elected Hamas and Hezbollah. . Ya have to see it with your own eyes. Israelis do! Nasty neighborhood indeed. Zionist Israelis amid any ocean of democrats , widening their empire, Russian/Soviet -Style! Sorry I have to laugh. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 21:36
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You know the scots lost that war? ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 21:40
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Also Braveheart is an antisemetist :'( Also Zionism is just Jewish Nazionalism  |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 21:46
No Gibson is! Is also a wacko. As for the second comment, you obviously visited TelAviv, arrested by the Gestapo (after all, Heydrich was half-Jewish), tortured in Acre's Citadel and then your entire family 'vernichtet' ! Right! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 21:48
I reiterate my first reply : Anti-Semitism about 5800 years old . Zionism about 150 . Wonder which came first? Hmmmmm! BTW Waters (via Vompatti) is not a communist , he is a rich opportunist and a poo disturber. He probably never visited the Holy land , and seen for himself the differences, which explains his simplistic and opportunistic views. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 21:51
Anti-Semitism came first, so I guess that means it's more valid?  |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 21:51
That would make a good business card: Roger Waters - Poo Distributor. In all seriousness, I'd probably be a bit more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause if their leaders weren't a bunch of jerks. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: Nogbad_The_Bad
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 21:51
It's about the Scots fighting the English, how the hell is that is anti-semetic? (Other than Gibson being an arsehole) ------------- Ian Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 22:00
Anti-semitism, Nazism, Stalinism, Apartheid, Anti-African (American or otherwise), The Church, Isis, Hamas, The National Front, Facebook, Amazon, Paypal, whatever! it's all the same crap. Control mechanisms directed by manipulators who lead the manipulated!   This has been going on since Eden. All that technology and so little knowledge. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 22:28
Unlike Waters I actually am a socialist, so I admit I find myself confused that you equate colonialism with peacefulness. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 22:43
Confused only because you have never set foot in the Middle East! I am also a Center Socialist (Canada does work!) and I wonder colonialism by whom? I have seen Arabs and Jews together in coffeeshops , on the streets , everywhere in Israel , taxi drivers, postmen, normal folk. In Arab countries, I have seen no Jew anywhere, no synagogue , no nothing! Also if you read any objective history, Ben Gurion in 1948 pleaded for Arabs and Jews to build a Democratic Israel. The Grand Mufti changed that Palestinian dynamic big time. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 22:48
|
You mean colonialism like the British, French, Spanish,
German, Austrian, Ottoman, Chinese, American, Russian and once Japanese Empire?
Slightly larger than Gaza or the Golan, I would say. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: October 30 2016 at 23:33
| It bothers me how Water's view is usually taken as anti-jew by people. He is anti violence and opression and war. He is against the particular policy of the Israili government of erradicating the palestinian people. And how people get offended by the David's star shown in his shows... while the scene includes also christian crosses and capitalist simbols and so on... |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 03:04
Thomas, once again you've nailed what I always thought was kind of milestone in the relationship between Israelis and Palestinians, while the Israeli side accepted the partition plan by the UN in 1947, the arab leadership turned it down. Ever since then the arab leadership have turned down every offer by the Israeli prime ministers including recent offers by prime ministers such as Barak and Ulmert who agreed to most of the palestinians demands including about 95% of land demanded by them. The arab leadership of course turned it down and has never made a single step towards peace, they never wanted to settle on anything, everyone has to meet their demands or else...
|
Posted By: javajeff
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 03:40
Not only is Gaza an amazing track, but the band was concerned about releasing it on the album. That type of concern is what makes Marillion classy and considerate. The child's perspective was genius, even if was from another side. Adults can actually learn a lot from Children. I realize Roger Waters has made political music, and I have been a Pink Floyd fan for years despite some of the content. Current posturing is uncomfortable. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 07:30
Canada has nothing to do with socialism, it is 100% capitalist. If you do not understand how the expropriation of land is colonialist then I am not sure I can help you. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 10:56
|
I don't need your help, thank you ! Being a historian, I certainly do not need you to educate me about anything. Canada is , according to the real capitalists (US Republicans and tea partyists, as well as many right wing fans) an outright socialist state: social insurance, welfare, workers comp, free healthcare, state education,etc...It has a free market economy. Its a western democracy. The only true socialist country, according to your logic, is North Korea. State owns everything and everyone there. I think you are a marxist ideologue fanboy who has inhaled little too much Pol Pot ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 10:58
NICE DEFLECTION!   very courageous !10 red stars!  ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 12:41
State ownership has nothing to do with socialism, neither does the DPRK or the Khmer Rouge. Calling capitalist reforms socialism is meaningless. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 13:23
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The Rise and Fall of Communism by Archie Brown -find it and read it ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 13:25
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And then Anne Applebaum -Iron Curtain - find that and read it too. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 14:18
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This has nothing to do with Roger Waters, who is someone I would not listen to about anything, but being critical of Israel's government does not make one anti-Jew, or particularly sympathetic towards the leaders in Palestine.. There are many Jews who are critical of the current government in Israel and how they handle things. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 14:25
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And there are many who are not critical of any Palestinian government that is in not any shape way or form democratic by nature and have only one answer: rockets. It has all to do with Waters, being filthy rich poo disturber. We are talking about his poo. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: EddieRUKiddingVarese
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 15:30
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Do you think Roger would get along with Bob Dylan...................... ------------- "Everyone is born with genius, but most people only keep it a few minutes" and I need the knits, the double knits! |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 15:37
The thread is,about Roger Waters, and, of course, being critical of Israel's government does not make one anti-Jew, and, yes, there are many citizens of the country who are critical of their government's stance. Rightly, I might add, in many instances. However, I do genuinely believe that Waters' views, alongside many on the so-called left in British politics particularly, cross the line in their uncritical nature of Palestinian politicians and terrorists, and slamming of Israel. I suppose it is a question of balance, and that balance strikes me as being sadly lacking (I am not referring'to you here, just to clarify as best I can). ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: javajeff
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 16:13
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Why can't he just sip his tea and participate in his own residence politics? Shouldn't he be getting a new shuffleboard court? |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 16:14
------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 16:18
What bothers me most is that influential and wealthy people like Waters (and Juncker, Cohn-Bendit , Brusselistan and the leftist internationalists who still fantasize of a social paradise where everyone is equal in name only but led by true visionaries  ) still has a captive audience. He is a rocker, a once brilliant progger who understood the GDR and its VOPO/STASI universe and yet acts like an imbecile who has no historical knowledge of anything outside oh his Wall.I have seen rock concerts and various other cultural shows in
Israel. Absolute illegal and anathema in the Arab world except in Dubai (I wonder why!?).
Fascinated by history, I traveled to Jerusalem as one who had studied two
sides of Christianity, then spent a married spell in Judaism and recently
divorced, more Buddhist in philosophy. Err… I got it, rights and laws, wars and
tragedies, the human condition yadayada.
Humans leading humans. Let me laugh….Any historian, pro or amateur like me, will tell you that the past mostly reveals the worst facet of the human condition, with occasional periods of beauty. Mostly borne out of hope. Hope that one day, we all get along. But as long as crooked and primitive leaders run governments, there will be no democracy in the Arab world. Here! Name me ONE Arab or even Muslim country that is democratic, aka ‘Fair Elections’?! Please? Just one. Hamas, Hezbollah, Isis, Al Qaida, Pakistan,Turkey ( Today’s screwed up universe is a thousand times more vulnerable, because history today is TODAY. Only offer your hand of friendship to one who reciprocates, hand extended. I feel sorry for the Israelis but sorrier for my Arab friends who are still screwed royally over by their OWN people and governments. The Arab SPRUNG! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 18:58
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^ I wouldn't call Waters "influential" in any substantial way. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 20:18
He is known certainly more than any other artist on this site! Anyone into rock music also knows who he is/was. He certainly does not influence me, I am not Pink enough (  ) . ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 20:30
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^ Maybe (and that's a big maybe), but he's still just little old Roger Waters. He's a has-been rock musician: no one cares what he thinks about anything. I don't think they ever did. It's not like he was Lennon or Dylan. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 20:38
Wot! No Nobel prize? could his small ego handle that spurn?  ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 21:19
I am not personally particularly interested in the USSR, as I don't uphold it or look to it as an example of anything other than capitalist development after a working class revolution (well, somewhat since the peasantry also played an important role). May '68 is more interesting to me, if you want a historic movement to refer to. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 21:36
So, just so I understand you, you are saying it is totally ok to take land from Palestinian citizens, defend it with force, and create apartheid-like conditions because "Arab countries don't have democracy"? |
) still has a captive audience. He is a rocker, a once brilliant
progger who understood the GDR and its VOPO/STASI universe and yet acts
like an imbecile who has no historical knowledge of anything outside oh
his Wall.
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 22:07
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Well I will PM you with some info as this is out of the thread's context. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 22:14
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Apartheid conditions? The nearly 2 million Arabs living in Israel proper (pre 1967) do not live in apartheid. I stated for a fact that I personally saw Arabs and Jews mingling everywhere, every day, in cities and in rural areas. They have ARAB members in the Knesset, for Gods sake! Have you ever been? or do you rely on Internet knowledge? We have a member here from Israel, Sagi is very well respected, ask him. He lives there after all. The Palestinians in Gaza do not want ANY kind of peace with Israel. Don't believe me? Ask them, by email..... ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: October 31 2016 at 22:15
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Waters used the apartheid word may times, so he is current on this thread! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 01:38
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The only reason the West is interested in the Middle East is Oil, and the only reason the West is interested in the Eastern Mediterranean Middle East is Religion. Remove those from the equation then it's just a whole pile of Sand and Poor Human Rights. We shouldn't defend any of it. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 02:58
The whole "taking their land" argument which is debatable (I mean no one can really claim ownership on a piece of land, it's not like there are actual boundaries there, 60 or 70 years ago there were Jewish and Arab settlements living one next to the other) is a "new" excuse. Prior to 67 there was no claim for land by the Palestinians, so were there no attacks on Israeli settlements? You bet there were, and on a regular basis too. Those attacks happened on what basis? The basis was my father told me to hate you and kill you, simple as that! A day after the Declaration of Independence Arabs from within and outside launched an immediate attack on Israel known as the war of independence, why did they do that? Did we take any of their land? understand that the basis of the Arab fate/upbringing is to hate the Jews, I may sound like a right wing extremist but this is coming from a guy who's against pretty much everything Netanyahu is doing, but at least I know what's going on here. There were many Israeli leaders who honestly tried to make peace, the problem is that the Arab world does not want it, they prefer to sacrifice the whole Palestinian people to be prisoners in Gaza while they live their normal life. Give them hell and keep the fight! I'll send you as much money as you like (but for missiles not medicine or food God forbid) My opinion on building in the settlements is that it should cease just to show that we can make the first step (something that already happened many times before but nothing came out of it). Hell you can make peace tomorrow if you really wanted it, the Arab leadership can settle for starters and then work their way up, show your people what can be achieved by agreements, this nation can thrive if their leaders only wanted it. But to justify it by terror acts? I really love Rabin's saying, Make peace like there is no terror and fight terror like there is no peace. |
Posted By: javajeff
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 03:16
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Land is "owned" by the humans with the bigger guns. If it cannot be defended, it will be conquered. |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 05:46
| ^ Only in this case Israel is willing to give it away for peace purposes. See Sinai for example of what Israel is willing to do for peace. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 09:36
There is no oil in Israel or at least, very little. There is religion though. But also nightclubs, rock concerts, festivals, and a lot of human rights. As far as sand is concerned, not quite. When you visit , like I did, the surprising amount of vegetation will astound you. The Israelis are masters at irrigation. In fact, it has been whispered , they helped Saudi Arabia via an Austrian company.
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 09:50
Er, Tszirmay, I think that Dean was being sarcastical and, above all, I think that his comment wasn't made for being interpretated literaly. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:06
I never said there was Oil in Israel. I never mentioned Israel. I chose my words with extreme care and with precision.  I honestly couldn't give a flying fart how well oranges can be made to grow there, allegedly the hanging gardens of Babylon were a wonder to be seen too. ------------- What? |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:12
| There is oil in Israel |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:21
------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:28
Errr, CP....Dean, of all people, does not need anyone to apologize for him, he is perfectly, and i stress, PERFECTLY capable of defending his preciseness and sharp mind set. But you shouldn't interpret that literally! Merci ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:32
It does export petroleum products
|
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:36
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I wouldn't use oil for "internal use", if you see what I mean. |
Posted By: Darious
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:39
------------- Writing about truth is a little bit like getting your dick out in public and hoping no one laughs (Steve Hogarth) |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:46
You must mean cooking oil...
|
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:50
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Sagi, do not despair, all these experts have been to Israel via Google Maps , they have seen with their own PC cameras what really goes on in Israel, and they just plain KNOW. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: WeepingElf
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:55
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Many people automatically cry "Anti-Semitism!!!" whenever anyone criticizes the policies of the Israeli government. Those people are just wrong. The Israeli government does things which are just plain wrong and violate international law and human rights, and such abuses can and should be criticized. That has nothing to do with the fact that they are Jews; occupying foreign territory and denying basic human rights to the people of that territory is always illegitimate, no matter whether you are Jew, Christian, Muslim or whatever. Also no matter whether you are a democracy or not. Of course Israel has a right to peace and secure borders, but secure borders are always borders on which both sides agree, never ones which one side forces upon the other. ------------- ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf "What does Elvish rock music sound like?" - "Yes." |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:57
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Israel imports oil , in the past from Angola, Colombia, Norway, Mexico, Egypt and lately Russia, Kazakhstan and currently Kurdistan. A possibly huge oil deposit is being investigated in the Golan , near Katzrin. As with everything in Israel, within missile and rocket distance. Peace, bro ! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 10:59
And which side is that? The one that wants peace, I mean. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 11:02
| I never claimed to be an expert. Do you need a link to the Fact Israel exports some petroleum products.? |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 11:09
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No thanks... Oil and petroleum products , ce n'est pas la meme chose! 77% of crude oil is imported from Kurdistan to Israel. Would you like the link? ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 11:15
| Not really worth debating^ |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 11:17
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Right! Facts suck, don't they ? ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 11:20
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If we're discussing oil, Israel and all that jazz, maybe we should start thinking that, while Israel is NOT producing oil, at least this country can be a gate to the oil shores for the Western countries... |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 11:24
BP and many western oil companies were there way before 1948. After all, Iraq was a British creation in order to mine the oil. Saudi Arabia as well, I believe in 1932. And please, let's not talk about the UAE, a recent gateway. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 11:41
I know that, but I also wonder about the whereabouts of Cold War. Anyway, all this discussion takes faraway from the irreponsibility of Roger Waters who offers a rather simplistic view about the subject (just like Roald Dahl did in this time). I just wonder if Waters has something to say about Tibet, Chechnya, the Rohingyas in Burma, Kurdistan, etc... |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 11:46
Indeed what about the strict walls of inhumanity that govern Saudi Arabia, the lawlessness of Somalia, the infighting in Syria, Iraq, Yemen and Sudan. But that would be too novel for him, its way easier , as 'he warms his bones by the fire' to parrot old and false fallacies and judge from his holier than thou artistic podium. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 12:35
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Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 12:42
Correct. Many countries who import oil , then export petroleum based products , like.......Plastics  Among many other things ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 12:50
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Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: November 01 2016 at 12:58
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American Express take a $4 million sponsorship deal off the table for Roger's next tour. https://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2016/10/30/principles-cost-millions/ |
Posted By: javajeff
Date Posted: November 03 2016 at 03:38
It makes more sense for musicians to just stay out of politics. Why not try to have fans in all countries and appeal to everyone. They are in the entertainment business, which requires people for them to entertain. Taking sides in political issues where you have no roots is strange, yet only picking one issue and not weighing in on all of them...sounds like Cherry Picking. |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: November 03 2016 at 08:21
It makes more sense for musicians whatever they want: if music is just entertainment, then we'd better listen to dance music with lyrics about boy-meets-girl and not asking for something more ambitious. Then, we should ask the same to writers, cinema directors, painters, etc... Goodbye Orwell, Ken Loach or even Charlie Chaplin and his goddamn "Dictactor": couldn't he stay out of political stuff and keep doing his Charlot routine? |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 03 2016 at 15:22
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OK, I'm afraid to get more involved in this discussion than I am capable of, for I haven't really investigated enough about the situation to enter a discussion about it. However, I just found this article about Waters and his reasons for getting involved. It would seem to me that at least he does know enough about this to form his own judgement, and he has been in Israel in order to have seen how things are going there. If he is wrong on his views or not, that is another matter, but at least he is informed and has seen it in person and made a choice. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/roger-waters-pink-floyd-israel-boycott-ban-palestine-a6884971.html |
Posted By: Sagichim
Date Posted: November 04 2016 at 09:21
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^ He actually says nothing here, just points out the situation without investigating the reasons for it. The only thing he does say is also mostly wrong. He says, that people here are treated differently depending on their ethnicity, and that there 40 to 50 laws depending if you are a jew or not. This might be true if you live in one of the arab countries where there is no democracy and human rights or women rights doesn't really exist. 40 to 50 laws depending if you are a jew... this is just hilarious, I knew he was wrong but now I know he's a real idiot to believe such things. Palestinians that live in Israel and are proper citizens (about million people maybe more, I don't know)have the same rights and are treated equaly, I agree they might be under a certain suspicion but still they can go anywhere and do whatever they like just like me. Israeli Palestinians here serve as doctors, judges, lawyers, actors, musicians and just every position you can think of. The only thing that separates us is that they don't go to the army. On the other hand, this country is certainly not perfect, we have people with prejudice minds, bigots and every kind that exist just like in every other country. |
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: November 04 2016 at 13:39
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^I might be wrong but I believe that Water's beef is with the violence that exits in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, not just how Palestinians are treated in general. What's your take on this Sagi?
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: November 04 2016 at 22:03
Well, he does say he went to Israel and saw the situation and was impressed and felt he had to do something. He had actually gone to do a concert with no agenda. Now, if his perceptions were right, or if he has done any research besides, I can't really know... I would hope he would do so, but you certainly have a much clearer notion of how things are over there. |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: November 04 2016 at 23:57
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Sorry guys but he is not an anti-Semite or a
pro-Palestinian, nor a pro-fascist or anti-corporate. He is a typical,
relatively intelligent mind that decides to become a sh*t-disturber. That is
all, no need to look further, this is a very common European sickness, to go
whichever the wind blows and constantly seek out attention, especially when the
psyche has been wounded with paranoia, guilt, rage, blindness , submission and ”the
Wall” . He is just seeking attention, like the good grandpa that he is , and if
he can be a curmudgeon (which he has done now for 30 years or so, lawsuits not
withstanding ), who is going to care? Nick Mason? Er… Dave Gilmour? I am
laughing hysterically! Really? If he was
there in Israel and he saw the daily reality, then the only reason he speaks
out against this evidence, is by blaming Israel for Gaza being run by greedy
despots in Hamas. But that would not be politically correct, now would it!
Waters always was an eccentric, daresay a luna-tic (well we all know he had
been to the dark side of the moon) , and he just loves pissing off people ,
anyone , anywhere. Ask Nick, Dave and Rick up in heaven. Great musician and bassist but an ass as a human. Hypocrite ! ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 05 2016 at 02:03
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Landing here only now,I won't read all the previous comments. Facts: Roger Waters has always been in oitis. This is nothing new. Together with the David's star in the The Wall show there are communist, nazis, dollars halfmoons and everything he thinks is the cause of today's conflicts. The Wall is about wars not about Israel, My personal opinions: Israel has an apartheid system The occupation of Palestine is illegal and a violation of human rights. The vice minister is an idiot bigot (not very significant, this one). As "A Man" says, being against a government doesn't mean being against a people or a nation. If Trump wins I won't become anti-american. I don't like Hamas and bigots in general. There's a lot of Israeli good musicians and I have hebrew relatives. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: November 05 2016 at 02:03
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Most of all, Politics fits well in music. We can disagree, but if we remove politics from music probably more than half of Zappa is gone. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: November 05 2016 at 02:17
| I only think of Roger and bass. My No.1 influence (solid, creative, without any OTT technical w**kery). Sorry, I think nothing of politicks..........but I know when they affect me..... |
Posted By: javajeff
Date Posted: November 05 2016 at 05:01
What laws are you referring to? FYI: We are just human beings living on this Molten ball of rock, and we do not really own anything. The people that can defend land, gets the land. Civilizations have fallen before. What about animal rights? |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: November 05 2016 at 08:21
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"I lie and am rather aggressive." -Roger Waters  |