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Cristi 
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
Status: Offline
Points: 43718
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 Posted: February 26 2016 at 06:08 |
 BaldFriede wrote:
They jumped on the prog rock train when it was almost out of the station. I call that "epigones".
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but epigone has such a negative connotation to it, an inferior creator, an imitator which in my opinion Rush has never been.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: February 26 2016 at 06:25 |
Cristi wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
They jumped on the prog rock train when it was almost out of the station. I call that "epigones".
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but epigone has such a negative connotation to it, an inferior creator, an imitator which in my opinion Rush has never been.
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But that's exactly my opinion of them. Had they added anything new and surprising I would not call them "epigones", but they didn't. At least not to my ears. I know they are very much loved on the American continent, but I simply can't warm up to them. They are way too streamlined for my taste. Their huge number of followers alone is proof for that; bands that go against the grain (which are those bands I prefer) have much less followers.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847
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Posted: February 26 2016 at 09:19 |
Epigones? Makes no sense, does not apply...Unless you want to apply that to many, many bands then ok. Clearly you don't know how they almost were shut down early in their career by the record label, wanting that "hit" record along the lines of traditional hard rock, being told by execs "no more long songs!" 2112 is that album that went against this grain you speak of and they did what they thought was best...make their own music. After CoS the label wanted the hit record as they did not understand the progressive rock/metal stuff they were doing...So what does the band do?? They go with the grain and create an album with a side long epic with a dystopian storyline set in the year 2112....Yea that was not "going against the grain" Are you kidding me!! Also you have to remember this was in the mid 70's....Rush were not that huge as you say with followers, they were still an opening act for bands like ELO, BOC, Aerosmith, Kansas, Nazareth and Kiss.
It's best you just say "I don't like them" and be on your way, that will garner you more positive comments. |
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
Status: Offline
Points: 30850
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Posted: February 26 2016 at 09:35 |
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Passion and integrity, that's what this band is all about.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
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Posted: February 26 2016 at 09:52 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Epigones? Makes no sense, does not apply...Unless you want to apply that to many, many bands then ok. Clearly you don't know how they almost were shut down early in their career by the record label, wanting that "hit" record along the lines of traditional hard rock, being told by execs "no more long songs!"2112 is that album that went against this grain you speak of and they did what they thought was best...make their own music. After CoS the label wanted the hit record as they did not understand the progressive rock/metal stuff they were doing...So what does the band do?? They go with the grain and create an album with a side long epic with a dystopian storyline set in the year 2112....Yea that was not "going against the grain" Are you kidding me!! Also you have to remember this was in the mid 70's....Rush were not that huge as you say with followers, they were still an opening act for bands like ELO, BOC, Aerosmith, Kansas, Nazareth and Kiss.
It's best you just say "I don't like them" and be on your way, that will garner you more positive comments. |
I don't care about positive comments. And yes, there are many more bands that I call "epigones". And you obviously don't get what I mean by "going against the grain". The music of Rush is in my opinion easy to listen to and not challenging at all. And that's why it does not go against the grain. As to your advice: I think it is best you say "I like them" and be on your way.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: February 26 2016 at 10:06 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847
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Posted: February 26 2016 at 11:45 |
BaldFriede wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
Epigones? Makes no sense, does not apply...Unless you want to apply that to many, many bands then ok. Clearly you don't know how they almost were shut down early in their career by the record label, wanting that "hit" record along the lines of traditional hard rock, being told by execs "no more long songs!"2112 is that album that went against this grain you speak of and they did what they thought was best...make their own music. After CoS the label wanted the hit record as they did not understand the progressive rock/metal stuff they were doing...So what does the band do?? They go with the grain and create an album with a side long epic with a dystopian storyline set in the year 2112....Yea that was not "going against the grain" Are you kidding me!! Also you have to remember this was in the mid 70's....Rush were not that huge as you say with followers, they were still an opening act for bands like ELO, BOC, Aerosmith, Kansas, Nazareth and Kiss.
It's best you just say "I don't like them" and be on your way, that will garner you more positive comments. |
I don't care about positive comments. And yes, there are many more bands that I call "epigones".
And you obviously don't get what I mean by "going against the grain". The music of Rush is in my opinion easy to listen to and not challenging at all. And that's why it does not go against the grain.
As to your advice: I think it is best you say "I like them" and be on your way.
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I don't like them.....I love Rush!  The music and who they are is much more than just liking a band or music....It's totally ok that you do not get them or like them. For example people adore and love Magma on this website, I don't get it nor like the music much....but I would never expand my feelings to call them garbage or some other word like that or call them imitators.
And really who is a band like Rush imitating to call them epigones? 
Whatever..my positive comment is have a good day/evening.
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
Status: Offline
Points: 30850
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Posted: February 26 2016 at 11:52 |
^ Now let's talk about The Fab Four and Frank Zappa, Catch.  
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847
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Posted: February 26 2016 at 12:30 |
Barbu wrote:
^ Now let's talk about The Fab Four and Frank Zappa, Catch. |
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Jeffro
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2014
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2164
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 07:32 |
Blacksword wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Cristi wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
They jumped on the prog rock train when it was almost out of the station. I call that "epigones".
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but epigone has such a negative connotation to it, an inferior creator, an imitator which in my opinion Rush has never been.
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But that's exactly my opinion of them. Had they added anything new and surprising I would not call them "epigones", but they didn't. At least not to my ears. I know they are very much loved on the American continent, but I simply can't warm up to them. They are way too streamlined for my taste. Their huge number of followers alone is proof for that; bands that go against the grain (which are those bands I prefer) have much less followers.
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Well I guess no one likes every band and that's fine, but I don't get how you think they did add anything new or surprising. I'd be the first to admit they started out sounding like a Zep tribute act, but by the time they made 2112 I can honestly say that no one else I'm aware of sounded like that. Even if you hate the sound.. 
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This is true. To my knowledge, no one else sounded like Rush back then. By the band's own admission, their music was "weird". They had a large cult following and music critics, by and large, hated them.
If by "streamlined", she means mainstream, Calling Rush that is laughable. Until recently, they have been the epitome of not streamlined, not mainstream.
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Magnum Vaeltaja
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 01 2015
Location: Out East
Status: Offline
Points: 6777
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 10:44 |
Jeffro wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Cristi wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
They jumped on the prog rock train when it was almost out of the station. I call that "epigones".
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but epigone has such a negative connotation to it, an inferior creator, an imitator which in my opinion Rush has never been.
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But that's exactly my opinion of them. Had they added anything new and surprising I would not call them "epigones", but they didn't. At least not to my ears. I know they are very much loved on the American continent, but I simply can't warm up to them. They are way too streamlined for my taste. Their huge number of followers alone is proof for that; bands that go against the grain (which are those bands I prefer) have much less followers.
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Well I guess no one likes every band and that's fine, but I don't get how you think they did add anything new or surprising. I'd be the first to admit they started out sounding like a Zep tribute act, but by the time they made 2112 I can honestly say that no one else I'm aware of sounded like that. Even if you hate the sound..
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This is true. To my knowledge, no one else sounded like Rush back then. By the band's own admission, their music was "weird". They had a large cult following and music critics, by and large, hated them.
If by "streamlined", she means mainstream, Calling Rush that is laughable. Until recently, they have been the epitome of not streamlined, not mainstream.
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I may be biased as a Canadian, but Rush is mainstream. Sure, the critics gave them a fair share of criticism back in the day but look at the sales. 24 gold albums, 14 platinum, 3 multi-platinum. 80th best-selling artist of all time in the US. Every classic rock radio station in Canada will play Fly By Night, Working Man, Tom Sawyer or The Spirit of Radio on a weekly basis. They've been a commercial success ever since A Farewell To Kings came out.
I'll ultimately have to agree with Friede on this one. As a prog band, Rush were old news. Sure, they stuck it to the execs with stuff like Lamneth and 2112, but North American record executives have got to be some of the most artistically closed-minded individuals on the planet, so that isn't saying much. And I'm sure that once Rush really started to sell in the late 70's, the record companies became a lot less reluctant to let them do their own thing. Commercially speaking, Rush were taking a different approach from their continental contemporaries but as far as "progginess" on a global scale, Rush never really developed anything new. Heavy prog was a thing long before Rush delved into it. I'm sure that if you took T2's It'll All Work Out In Boomland and raised the singer's voice a few octaves, it would be almost unmistakable for an early Rush project.
Now, as for what the thread is about (thoughts on Rush's retirement), I think that even with no more tour plans and very little possibility of new studio recordings, their legacy will still last well into the future. For Canadians, Rush will always be folk heroes. The good ol' boys from Toronto who laid down some high energy rock n' roll and made our morning commutes, road trips, and Saturday nights a heck of a lot more enjoyable. They'll go down in history as a legendary rock band - not a legendary prog band.
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when i was a kid a doller was worth ten dollers - now a doller couldnt even buy you fifty cents
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Modrigue
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 14 2007
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 1127
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 11:46 |
Blacksword wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Cristi wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
They jumped on the prog rock train when it was almost out of the station. I call that "epigones".
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but epigone has such a negative connotation to it, an inferior creator, an imitator which in my opinion Rush has never been.
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But that's exactly my opinion of them. Had they added anything new and surprising I would not call them "epigones", but they didn't. At least not to my ears. I know they are very much loved on the American continent, but I simply can't warm up to them. They are way too streamlined for my taste. Their huge number of followers alone is proof for that; bands that go against the grain (which are those bands I prefer) have much less followers.
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Well I guess no one likes every band and that's fine, but I don't get how you think they did add anything new or surprising. I'd be the first to admit they started out sounding like a Zep tribute act, but by the time they made 2112 I can honestly say that no one else I'm aware of sounded like that. Even if you hate the sound..
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Yes, they may be less innovative or complex than Yes or Gentle Giant. However, for me, they bring something new to the prog genre during the late 70's, when it was beginning to die. I personally consider 2112 as the prime example of progressive metal, influencing numerous future bands of the 80-90's, such as Dream Theater. Concerning the 'bands that go against the grain' and 'less followers is better' arguments (the 'hipster' argument?  ), things are more complex. Pink Floyd and Radiohead are both incredible and immensely creative bands and have both a huge number of followers. In the late 90's, techno, rap and britpop were popular, Radiohead 'went against the grain' with their innovative depressive and beautiful rock.
Edited by Modrigue - August 23 2016 at 11:51
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 11:47 |
Back in the day most bands called themselves a rock, pop or psychedelic band......Rush is a hard rock band that wrote stuff that was not popular a lot of times, was weird and for some did not make much sense, at times probably fit some kind of progressive definition, but not 100% of the time, not sure any band has done that...not even Yes, Genesis or Floyd...
Why would any band want to go down as a legendary prog band? If I was in a band nearing my end, that is the last perception I want people thinking of me...a prog band.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 12:00 |
Jeffro wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Cristi wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
They jumped on the prog rock train when it was almost out of the station. I call that "epigones".
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but epigone has such a negative connotation to it, an inferior creator, an imitator which in my opinion Rush has never been.
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But that's exactly my opinion of them. Had they added anything new and surprising I would not call them "epigones", but they didn't. At least not to my ears. I know they are very much loved on the American continent, but I simply can't warm up to them. They are way too streamlined for my taste. Their huge number of followers alone is proof for that; bands that go against the grain (which are those bands I prefer) have much less followers.
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Well I guess no one likes every band and that's fine, but I don't get how you think they did add anything new or surprising. I'd be the first to admit they started out sounding like a Zep tribute act, but by the time they made 2112 I can honestly say that no one else I'm aware of sounded like that. Even if you hate the sound..
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This is true. To my knowledge, no one else sounded like Rush back then. By the band's own admission, their music was "weird". They had a large cult following and music critics, by and large, hated them.
If by "streamlined", she means mainstream, Calling Rush that is laughable. Until recently, they have been the epitome of not streamlined, not mainstream.
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I took 'streamined' to mean she thought they were slick and polished, which they were. It wasn't until Neil loosened his sound after some jazz 'tuition' that they started to lose their metronomic style (and started writing less memorable music IMO) but I would argue that just because they were 'streamlined' they were still unique, progressive and innovative.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
Status: Offline
Points: 30850
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 12:12 |
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mechanicalflattery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 08 2016
Location: Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 1056
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 12:45 |
Without necessarily getting into the actual quality of Rush's music, I have to side with Magnum and Baldfriede here, Rush is definitely a relatively streamlined/mainstream act. Compared to RIO, krautrock, free jazz/improv, musique concrete, or straight up avant-garde or avant-rock artists, Rush is a straightforward rock act, with brief verse-chorus songs, catchy hooks, accessible sound, etc. NONE of these are criticisms, but positing Rush as "out-there" artists defying the standard norms of music in the 70's, an era of incredible innovation and experimentation, is false. They bridged hard rock/metal and space rock/prog, which deserves some recognition (hardly the only artists to do so of course), but they had a set sound that enabled commercial success. Even 2112 or Hemispheres (the songs themselves) mainly resort to conventional songwriting tactics, and these came long after side-length tracks had been done to death. By the standards of prog (not even counting actual experimental music) Rush is incredibly normal.
Disclaimer: The quality of a group has little relation to how "weird" they are. I could say that Rush is the greatest band of all time, and it wouldn't contradict anything from the above paragraph. Being unpopular or experimental does not make a group good by default, nor does popularity and conventionality necessarily mean a group must be mediocre (although I find it's often the case).
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Modrigue
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 14 2007
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 1127
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 13:05 |
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It seems that this thread has derived to the somehow troll-esque topic: "How progressive / creative / good / mainstream Rush is?", which was not the primary intention of the OP.
We all mostly agree on the fact that Rush is not the most innovative band ever. Furthermore, the "mainstream value" strongly depends on the context and on the audience (as I previously mentioned, in France, broadcasting "Tom Sawyer" on radio is science-fiction).
However, the initial question was:
"What are your thoughts on Rush possibly calling it a day?"
Personally, I don't have any definitive opinion. I would like to see them live, and Clockwork Angels has its moments.
Edited by Modrigue - August 23 2016 at 13:19
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Barbu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
Status: Offline
Points: 30850
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 13:20 |
The question should have been : How much of a snob are you?
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crimson_smoog
Forum Newbie
Joined: August 16 2016
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 19
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 13:26 |
NOOO. I've never seen Rush live  It seems the last time they came to Brazil was in 2010. I was 13 years old. I didn't even know what the hell prog rock is. At least, one of unique shows i'm proud to have seen is Chris Squire with Yes (2013). I've lost the Steven Wilson's show this year, though, his only show in Brazil.  It's hard to know about prog rock concerts in this country...
Edited by crimson_smoog - August 23 2016 at 13:27
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"The fate of all mankind i see. Is in the hands of fools."
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847
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Posted: August 23 2016 at 13:38 |
I never knew there was such a thing as "straight up avant-garde or avant-rock artists"...what is non-straight up avant-garde?? There is no "standard of prog", that's why they call it progressive, a moving target.
I too hope to see them live again someday, not only is the music and musicianship great the show is a great experience.
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Rush Retirement Rumors: Your Thoughts.
