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Dellinger
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 21:53 |
And about Howe, I hadn't read before about him actually jamming with ELP. What I had read is that the idea of ELP was always a keyboard led trio, and they didn't want a guitar in the band... but that if Emerson ever wanted a guitar player with the band, that would have been Howe. So, how could it have worked? Howe in ELP and Fripp in Yes? That would have meant no more King Crimson... at least not in the 70's. However, of course I'm perfectly fine with the way things came out... that's the music we all got to know... and most of us got to love.
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Dellinger
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 21:48 |
micky wrote:
Big Kid Josie wrote:
Personally, I think their music lost a little of its potency when they strayed from Bartok, Ginastera and Mussorgsky into Copeland as far as their inspiration, but that's just me... |
never really considered that... likely some truth in that....excellent viewpoint.
| Well, I rather dislike Hoedown, and am not particularly fond of Fanfare for the Common Man, either, so you might be right at that. Though they did make some things that would remind be of Hoedown before, and those are the main sort of tunes that turn me off from many of their songs.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 20:17 |
We were jilted on Love Beach
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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micky
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 16:14 |
Big Kid Josie wrote:
Personally, I think their music lost a little of its potency when they strayed from Bartok, Ginastera and Mussorgsky into Copeland as far as their inspiration, but that's just me... |
never really considered that... likely some truth in that....excellent viewpoint.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Big Kid Josie
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Joined: June 23 2015
Location: USA
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Points: 48
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 13:42 |
You're right, Emerson and Lake (starting with his work in KC) were all about doing music based on the European traditions (classical composers, avant-garde, theatre, etc.) rather than the US rhythm and blues-based tradition like most of traditional rock. That's one of the things that earned them the hatred of the established music press---"Hey, get out of our sandbox! You can't play like that!"
Personally, I think their music lost a little of its potency when they strayed from Bartok, Ginastera and Mussorgsky into Copeland as far as their inspiration, but that's just me...
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Toaster Mantis
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Joined: April 12 2008
Location: Denmark
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 13:30 |
It's extra weird because ELP are as purely European in cultural origin as rock music can get... as a matter of fact, wasn't that Keith Emerson's entire concept with the group?
Edited by Toaster Mantis - June 24 2015 at 13:55
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Big Kid Josie
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Joined: June 23 2015
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 13:20 |
No kidding---seems like Hendrix and Emerson would've both fought for the spotlight and tried to take the lead. If they'd ever got to the point where they traded leads and pushed one another, though...Watch out! They were both experimenters with a lot of flair.
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Toaster Mantis
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Joined: April 12 2008
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 13:11 |
Concerning HELP, there was at some point plans for Jimi Hendrix to join the group for a collaboration but that fell apart when he... well, died. I have trouble imagining how it'd sound, though.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Guldbamsen
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Joined: January 22 2009
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 10:57 |
I don't dispute their contributions to the genre - in fact I think they're one of the most defining bands of their era. Also one of the most influential in that respect. I'm just not a fan myself (besides the aforementioned tunes). If I want something wild and adventurous with keyboards and synths I grab Il Balletto di Bronzo's Ys or elephant9's Walk the Nile
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Big Kid Josie
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 10:45 |
I'm OK with the ELP "throwaway" songs (Are you Ready Eddy, The Sheriff, Benny) and see them as the band proving that they really weren't that pretentious after all. But I can understand others finding those songs detract from the overall albums consistency.
I love Yes, Genesis and KC, don't get me wrong, but I'd argue there are some "throwaway"/lighthearted songs on their albums as well that detract from the consistency. Examples would be We have Heaven, 0%, Cans and Brahms from Yes/Fragile; the Phil Collins pop songs on Genesis/Nursery Crymes and Foxtrot; Cat Food on KC/Wake of Poseidon (also sung by Lake, granted).
I absolutely do find Genesis more refined and elegant than any of the top prog bands. I think the Yes classic line-up was probably the most talented of the 70's groups. I'd say Yes's output in the 70's is more consistent (til you hit Tormato) than ELP's and that their music is deeper and broader, maybe because they had 5 great members instead of 3 and more instruments in the mix.
Having said all that, I think ELP wrote some great songs (Take A Pebble, Tarkus, Pictures, Endless Enigma, Trilogy, Toccata, Karn Evil 9, to name a few) and is worthy of inclusion with the other 70's greats. I think they were very progressive and pushed the envelope during their prime---classical adaptations, use of the moog/Emerson's Bob Moog collaborations, the polyphonic moog, synthesized percussion, etc.).
It seems like the over-the-top nature of their music or their bombastic stage presence (flying pianos, stabbing knives into organs and throwing them around, firing off cannons at live shows) have led some to downplay their quite-extensive contributions to the genre...
Nuff said.
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Flight123
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Joined: September 01 2010
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 10:34 |
ELP at their best were unbeatable - as a teenager I took pride in the fact they did not have a guitarist. By the time I got into them they were on hiatus (1975) and when they re-emerged with 'Works Vol. 1' the musical landscape had changed and everyone started to hate them - except me. However, the group side still rates among their finest works, in my opinion.
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verslibre
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Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 09:39 |
Formentera Lady wrote:
If Steve Hackett or Steve Howe had joined them at some stage they would have been HELP |
I believe they did jam with Howe early on, but he stopped showing up and they later saw he'd joined Yes.
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FuseProg94
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Joined: June 11 2014
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 09:19 |
Rick Robson wrote:
This is intriguing, to say the least. No wonder for me that the majority of the prog lovers from here and from any other prog forum (generation after generation) keep up with a preference for some of the guitar based prog rock bands over any keyboard centered prog band.... |
I agree with that assessment. People seem more inclined to like guitar rather than keyboard based music, at least in the rock music sphere. Keyboards were developing during the time ELP was active in the early 70s and a lot of them do sound quite dated now, whereas guitar sounds have remained more constant in music (for lack of a better word).
ELP was my first prog band, and listening to them for the first time was quite an experience. I'll never forget listening to Welcome Back My Friends..., still one of my favorite albums of all time, and hearing the stunning virtuosity and imaginative composition on display. In their prime, they put on an awesome show! Keith Emerson with his superb control over an arsenal of keyboards, Carl Palmer's amazing drumming, Greg Lake's solid bass playing and rich voice...great stuff! True, they do have their occasional lapses in taste, but their best work measures up with any other of the influential prog giants. To me ELP are the definitive prog rock keyboard trio.
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Formentera Lady
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 09:07 |
If Steve Hackett or Steve Howe had joined them at some stage they would have been HELP To the topic: I personally count ELP as 'one of the big six of prog' together with King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd. I always regarded VdGG, Gentle Giant and Camel as 'the second tier of prog'. That does not mean that I like one band above the other, nor does it necessarily reflect my personal ranking list. It is just how I would 'classify' these bands regarding their importance and influence to the genre.
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 06:04 |
The law firm of Emerson, Lake & Palmer got me a $250,000 settlement for my motorcycle accident. CALL 1-800-ELP-HELP. The best call you'll ever make.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 05:39 |
^^ I can relate to that, though I probably like their work a lot more. I like a lot of prog outside the buttersoft-mellotron-epic symph format and that hasn't helped me enjoy ELP as much as I am 'supposed' to. Love some tracks and the others are just meh.
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Guldbamsen
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Joined: January 22 2009
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 04:32 |
Well I do like a couple of their tunes, but the major turn off for me is the way the music often seems like it gets in a fight with itself. There are so many of these 'battle' segments contained in ELP that I just lose my interest very quickly. I have often had people say something to the effect of 'wow man, I guess they're too prog for you then', and maybe they are. It just doesn't make sense that I'm hugely into avant and other such strange styles of music, where things get quite out-there and 'prog':-P I love 3 of their songs though: Tarkus, Still you turn me on and two thirds of Trilogy....
As to why people prefer Genesis over ELP? See my opening statement. To me personally Genesis' music flows a lot more elegantly and doesn't overcomplicate the music unnecessarily.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Meltdowner
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 04:12 |
^^ Yeah, I don't like those goofy songs, another reason why I prefer the debut.
presdoug wrote:
I like Triumvirat more, but you couldn't have had T'rat, and a score of other great prog bands without ELP. | I agree with you Doug
Edited by Meltdowner - June 24 2015 at 04:12
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Blacksword
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Location: England
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 04:10 |
Toaster Mantis wrote:
ELP were generally more inconsistent than the other big names in the British progressive rock movement of their day... most of their classic albums mix some very powerful and ambitious songs with overtly goofy songs (e. g. Benny the Bouncer) that either haven't aged very well, don't translate culturally to audiences outside the UK or just sound out of place on otherwise quite serious albums.
| That's my problem with ELP above all else is their inconsistency. The only album I enjoy from beginning to end is Trilogy, although that does have the Sheriff... I don't find them as thoughtful as other big prog bands of the time. They were all about showmanship and that does have its place and it works well, but the music just doesn't touch me as much as that of say Genesis.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Toaster Mantis
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Joined: April 12 2008
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Posted: June 24 2015 at 03:58 |
ELP were generally more inconsistent than the other big names in the British progressive rock movement of their day... most of their classic albums mix some very powerful and ambitious songs with overtly goofy songs (e. g. Benny the Bouncer) that either haven't aged very well, don't translate culturally to audiences outside the UK or just sound out of place on otherwise quite serious albums.
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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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