Why no love for ELP?
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Topic: Why no love for ELP?
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Subject: Why no love for ELP?
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 14:12
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I'm a big fan of all major 70's prog bands: Yes, Genesis, ELP, Tull, Rush, Pink Floyd, King Crimson...the list goes on. There's a tremendous amount of appreciation on this forum for Yes, Genesis, King Crimson and deservedly so...but precious little for ELP. I'm just curious for the reason. Too pompous and pretentious? I'd say Yes could be just as much so (Tales from Topographic Oceans for example. Crappy output after Welcome Back My Friends live album? Again, bad as Love Beach was, I think Yes Union, Talk & Open Your Eyes is just as pop-sellout bad and post-Hackett Genesis was just as bad. By the way, I don't mean to bash Yes---at their peak, I consider them one of the best prog bands of all time. Just noting that they've had their mis-steps in the Pop 80's just like all the other bands. Just curious as to other fan's views on this. I do think that ELP faded away after the Works albums, although I thought Black Moon was a pretty good disk. At their peak, they did some really fine work: Tarkus, Trilogy, BSS, and the classical-rock blending of Pictures...
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Replies:
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 14:26
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ELP put on some of the best shows of the early 70s. The pompous and pretentious labels came from those who didn't like them, or didn't enjoy or understand them. They were a huge concert draw in their time, until the mainstream music industry turned against prog, inducing the music press lackeys to insult their bombastic approach. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 14:37
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Agreed. They were reviled by a lot of the music press---who I think wanted blues-based 3-chord rock bands only and didn't want to see rock evolve. I get that. It just seems like they are comparatively less appreciated even here, on a site full of progrock lovers, than their contemporaries (Yes, Genesis, KC, PF, etc). Yet they were just as popular as these other bands. Not that popularity is necessarily a good indicator of worth. But they had serious chops for their day...Emerson was a great keyboard player and Palmer one of the best prog drummers. Lake a good singer, average guitar player, but somebody who doesn't get his due as a bass player. Unusual that even progheads don't give them their due (excluding present company, of course).
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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 14:38
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There is love for ELP, just a lot of hate too. And I'd say pompous and pretentious is nearing the answer, though it's a lazy explanation. Their aesthetic is built on an absurd amount of excess, and whether or not you like the absurdity makes or breaks the music. Their renditions of classical music, their flying pianos, Persian Rugs, and private jets. I could never dispute that they weren't talented individuals (although, to be honest, I'm not fond of either Greg Lake or Carl Palmer), or that they don't have any good material, but I have trouble getting past the cringe factor. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 14:38
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I agree with Evolver. I don't know why ELP is less popular on this site. Maybe because their best loved studio albums (ELP, Tarkus, Trilogy, BSS) only consists of 4 albums, while Yes and Genesis made some more generally loved albums?  I don't know. For me, ELP is up there with Yes, Genesis, KC, Floyd and some others. ELP is in my all time top 3 of both albums (the debut for me) and songs (Tarkus for me).
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 14:57
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Is ELP really less popular on this particular site? I concur that their prime period didn't exceed an all-too-brief 4 years, but they produced good music after that (along with less favorable material, and some dreck). ELP didn't originate the format, but they perfected the symphonic rock-keyboards trio format before any other band and continue to influence new artists and groups today. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 15:01
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hell yeah... another recruit for the ELP army!!! Welcome to the site. Don't be put off by everyone worshipping lesser bands. There are those here of good tastes.. and understandings of what prog was, and what made it great. Yeah.. there are a lot of people here confused as their prog sexuality. Whimpy dull sh*t.. zero influence. .zero innovation.. generic prog...s applauded here as classic.. pfffff.. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dayvenkirq
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 15:22
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Evolver wrote:Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 15:31
I love the first album. I like the second very much. Then ... 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 15:34
came....  sorry man.. no prog rock poseurs could pull this off... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 15:37
| I have been on these forums regularly for years, and I was never under the impression that there is little love for ELP. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 15:44
hah... when generic 4th divisions bands, with perhaps the worst vocalist in all prog, are more popular. yeah.. i'd say there is little love.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 15:44
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I've always found it strange that ELP were literally one of the most popular rock bands on Earth in the early 1970s but are second-class citizens on prog forums. At the same time cult bands from the '70s like VDGG and Gentle Giant are considered more important than ELP. ------------- Magma America Great Make Again |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 15:55
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well said brother Daryl.. . People are going to like what they do, but like the recent big 3 of prog poll. Were people really serious in some of their answers. Complete ignorance or omission because there was NO group bigger.. or more influential on prog. They didn't become one of the rock world's biggest and most popular groups simply for that.. they had a string of great albums, through the 70's that people loved, musicians looked to. Perhaps the audience has regressed today... but talking with many musicians today.. ELP is still highly ... HIGHLY regarded for what they did. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 16:16
Before their not-quite-a-hiatus, they released Brain Salad Surgery, with their defining moment, titled "Karn Evil 9." I presume the long face is because you shed a tear every time you listen to it.  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 16:46
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 16:53
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OK, maybe "no love" is a bit simplistic. If you compare the amount of fan reviews of Yes/KC/Genesis albums to ELP's, you'll see many more reviews for the "Top 3 70's prog bands" and fewer for ELP, also more negative reviews of ELP's classic period albums than for the other 3's classic period albums. In a lot of "best prog keyboardist"/"best prog drummer" threads, you'll see Emerson and Palmer often omitted, which I find odd. Whether you like their music or not, there is no denying that Emerson's one of the top 5 keyboardists in prog and Palmer one of the top 5 drummers, at least in my opinion. That's what I meant by "no love"...shoulda said "so little love in comparison"...
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 16:57
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^no worries, Josie, now that you have clarified that some, I see what you're driving at. Thank you. |
Posted By: Rick Robson
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 16:57
This is intriguing, to say the least. No wonder for me that the majority of the prog lovers from here and from any other prog forum (generation after generation) keep up with a preference for some of the guitar based prog rock bands over any keyboard centered prog band, that so called proghead love for BIG innovations seems reduced to some lesser groups of cult band followers, at least this is what I conclude after seeing the numerable PA's poll results here - I never see for instance the majority voting for RIO or Avant-gard bands rather than for the Big 3, or Big 5 as you like, but damn truth that ELP more than once was the most ignored on those boring polls...  Tell me which of the Big 5 don't feature a guitarist in the calibre of Steve Hackett, Steve Howe, Robert Fripp, David Gilmour or Alex Lifeson?? EDIT: Well.. I ignored the importance of the keyboards as well in the Big 5 -------------  "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB |
Posted By: dr prog
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 17:43
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They were pretty good from 71-73 but became a bit boring after that. Debut is strong, Tarkus fairly good although title track drags on and Trilogy fairly good with the occasional cheesy moment. Lakes voice always sounded a bit off with elp but his voice sounded quite good with Crimson ------------- All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 17:57
Not sure about that. In most polls (that I bother to check), Emerson and Palmer are right in there with the usual suspects. Carl's still tearing it up live with his ELP Legacy trio, too. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 18:21
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short sighted as some might be as to their overall impact on prog... you'd have to be a fool.. and thankfully there are few around here.. to deny their individual talents. Even the dipsh*t music critics who love to trash ELP acknowledge that. The single greatest rock keyboard player, top 5 alltime rock drummer, and one of the greatest voices and one of the most underrated bass players in rock. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 18:31
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^They certainly had a big impact on prog. As to whether their albums are good or not is fair game. And I have enormous respect for their skill, but single greatest... top 5... one of the greatest...? I just can't bring myself to agree. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 18:32
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 19:20
| I like Triumvirat more, but you couldn't have had T'rat, and a score of other great prog bands without ELP. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 19:21
better at what? Never understand that. Better at marginalizing themselves by playing music that most people don't like or can't enjoy. Yeah.. then perhaps so.. they are. Gotta love prog fans and their logic!  ELP was just as complex as talented.. but could sell a jillion records and influence 40 years of artists by the quality of their music, compositions, and performances. better? my ass. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 21:08
And ELP as complex as Gentle Giant? Nah. ELP didn't have the manpower that Gentle Giant had to execute the latter's contrapuntal complexity. No count against ELP, just an aside. For the record, I did not claim they were better in my post, but that claims of quality should not be equated to claims of importance. But I do like both Gentle Giant and VdGG better. You can see my reasons in my initial post. It's subjectively subjective subjectivity and it makes it's way into my ratings and reviews, as it should. I feel ELP's excess works against them many times. And I curl up and die inside when I hear Hoedown. "But at least they're important" is not an argument that's going to drive me to give any of their albums five stars. And, yes, I know about your DT review.  ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 21:15
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Because they're cringeworthy. ------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow. |
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 21:35
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To some, ELP represent the most bombastic, embarrassing excesses of the worst elements of the Prog genre, at least of the golden vintage period. It didn't help that pretty much every album after the debut (which is seriously good and their most consistent album) had some cringe-worthy tracks, and it's pretty fair to say that their albums sound pretty dated and could only have come from the Seventies. But that's what made those early bands so important - that daring, experimental shake-up of traditional straightforward rock music, and they all sounded so completely different from each-other and like no other bands before , and ELP (for better or worse) can be proud of that claim. I probably respect ELP more than truly love them (well, again that debut is the sole really special one for me), but there's no denying their status in the big important prog groups of the Seventies, regardless of how a few snobs try to dismiss them and re-write history! 
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Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 21:57
Better at playing music suited to my tastes. Better commercially? As you said, nope, it's undeniable that ELP was more influential and popular and likeable by a lot of people, nothing wrong with that. I still think Greg Lake did better work with the King, though. That being said, I've barely listened to any VdGG/GG/ELP for a couple years now...I find myself less fond of too organ-heavy groups, but that's just personal taste rearing its ugly head. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 22:00
I do like ELP, but listen up 'cause I'm speaking hard truth here, ya'll   1. Their sound doesn't seem as emotionally impactful as other big names. I could name songs from all the other big names that could make me cry...not so with ELP. Now the artwork of Love Beach 2. I think a few choice tracks are phenomenal, but even their best albums had some real duds on them. Take out "Benny the Bouncer" and the long instrumental suite on the debut and I wouldn't miss 'em. 3. Keyboard domination and Emerson's reliance on the Hammond gives it a dated sound. Grand Piano, while soft, still sounds more classic, and I like when he pulls out all the moog sounds like on Karn Evil. 4. I really think this is the biggest issue: classical covers. With all this talk of what band is prog and who is really taking music in a radical new direction, when ELP play classical music all amped up it comes across as less about the creativity and more about the showing off of "look at us, we can play that Toccata too!" They definitely were a huge influence. More than GG and VDGG. Still prefer the latter two though.
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 22:29
| I consider ELP as one of the main prog bands... and indeed over GG, VDGG, and Camel, though I don't necessarily like them better. There are songs I really love from them, but they do have many songs I really dislike, and they don't have any album that I truly love (because they would usually throw in some joke songs that I don't really like, but also because often some of their "important" songs would be rather annoying (actually, Genesis usually suffers from this, too). And in the end, I think there are less songs I like from them than form other of the big bands. |
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: June 23 2015 at 22:53
Hey, it could be worse. They could be Patti Smith or The Modern Lovers. ------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball! |
Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 03:35
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I think ELP get more of a bashing here than other prog forums, polls, etc. BSS would not be in top 10 here but has been in other prog polls (such as Prog Magazine). They asked for it due to their excesses and they were the easiest of targets for Lester Bangs and his motly peers to rip apart, but so were Genesis and Yes. I still cannot figure why Genesis are so liked on this forum above ELP. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 03:58
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ELP were generally more inconsistent than the other big names in the British progressive rock movement of their day... most of their classic albums mix some very powerful and ambitious songs with overtly goofy songs (e. g. Benny the Bouncer) that either haven't aged very well, don't translate culturally to audiences outside the UK or just sound out of place on otherwise quite serious albums. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 04:10
That's my problem with ELP above all else is their inconsistency. The only album I enjoy from beginning to end is Trilogy, although that does have the Sheriff...  I don't find them as thoughtful as other big prog bands of the time. They were all about showmanship and that does have its place and it works well, but the music just doesn't touch me as much as that of say Genesis. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 04:12
^^ Yeah, I don't like those goofy songs, another reason why I prefer the debut.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 04:32
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Well I do like a couple of their tunes, but the major turn off for me is the way the music often seems like it gets in a fight with itself. There are so many of these 'battle' segments contained in ELP that I just lose my interest very quickly. I have often had people say something to the effect of 'wow man, I guess they're too prog for you then', and maybe they are. It just doesn't make sense that I'm hugely into avant and other such strange styles of music, where things get quite out-there and 'prog':-P I love 3 of their songs though: Tarkus, Still you turn me on and two thirds of Trilogy.... As to why people prefer Genesis over ELP? See my opening statement. To me personally Genesis' music flows a lot more elegantly and doesn't overcomplicate the music unnecessarily. ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 05:39
| ^^ I can relate to that, though I probably like their work a lot more. I like a lot of prog outside the buttersoft-mellotron-epic symph format and that hasn't helped me enjoy ELP as much as I am 'supposed' to. Love some tracks and the others are just meh. |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 06:04
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The law firm of Emerson, Lake & Palmer got me a $250,000 settlement for my motorcycle accident. CALL 1-800-ELP-HELP. The best call you'll ever make. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 09:07
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If Steve Hackett or Steve Howe had joined them at some stage they would have been HELP To the topic: I personally count ELP as 'one of the big six of prog' together with King Crimson, Yes, Genesis, Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd. I always regarded VdGG, Gentle Giant and Camel as 'the second tier of prog'. That does not mean that I like one band above the other, nor does it necessarily reflect my personal ranking list. It is just how I would 'classify' these bands regarding their importance and influence to the genre. ------------- http://theprogressiveweb.blogspot.de" rel="nofollow - Visit me in Second Life to talk about music. |
Posted By: FuseProg94
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 09:19
I agree with that assessment. People seem more inclined to like guitar rather than keyboard based music, at least in the rock music sphere. Keyboards were developing during the time ELP was active in the early 70s and a lot of them do sound quite dated now, whereas guitar sounds have remained more constant in music (for lack of a better word). ELP was my first prog band, and listening to them for the first time was quite an experience. I'll never forget listening to Welcome Back My Friends..., still one of my favorite albums of all time, and hearing the stunning virtuosity and imaginative composition on display. In their prime, they put on an awesome show! Keith Emerson with his superb control over an arsenal of keyboards, Carl Palmer's amazing drumming, Greg Lake's solid bass playing and rich voice...great stuff! True, they do have their occasional lapses in taste, but their best work measures up with any other of the influential prog giants. To me ELP are the definitive prog rock keyboard trio.
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 09:39
I believe they did jam with Howe early on, but he stopped showing up and they later saw he'd joined Yes. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 10:34
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ELP at their best were unbeatable - as a teenager I took pride in the fact they did not have a guitarist. By the time I got into them they were on hiatus (1975) and when they re-emerged with 'Works Vol. 1' the musical landscape had changed and everyone started to hate them - except me. However, the group side still rates among their finest works, in my opinion. |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 10:45
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I'm OK with the ELP "throwaway" songs (Are you Ready Eddy, The Sheriff, Benny) and see them as the band proving that they really weren't that pretentious after all. But I can understand others finding those songs detract from the overall albums consistency. I love Yes, Genesis and KC, don't get me wrong, but I'd argue there are some "throwaway"/lighthearted songs on their albums as well that detract from the consistency. Examples would be We have Heaven, 0%, Cans and Brahms from Yes/Fragile; the Phil Collins pop songs on Genesis/Nursery Crymes and Foxtrot; Cat Food on KC/Wake of Poseidon (also sung by Lake, granted). I absolutely do find Genesis more refined and elegant than any of the top prog bands. I think the Yes classic line-up was probably the most talented of the 70's groups. I'd say Yes's output in the 70's is more consistent (til you hit Tormato) than ELP's and that their music is deeper and broader, maybe because they had 5 great members instead of 3 and more instruments in the mix. Having said all that, I think ELP wrote some great songs (Take A Pebble, Tarkus, Pictures, Endless Enigma, Trilogy, Toccata, Karn Evil 9, to name a few) and is worthy of inclusion with the other 70's greats. I think they were very progressive and pushed the envelope during their prime---classical adaptations, use of the moog/Emerson's Bob Moog collaborations, the polyphonic moog, synthesized percussion, etc.). It seems like the over-the-top nature of their music or their bombastic stage presence (flying pianos, stabbing knives into organs and throwing them around, firing off cannons at live shows) have led some to downplay their quite-extensive contributions to the genre... Nuff said.
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Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 10:57
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I don't dispute their contributions to the genre - in fact I think they're one of the most defining bands of their era. Also one of the most influential in that respect. I'm just not a fan myself (besides the aforementioned tunes). If I want something wild and adventurous with keyboards and synths I grab Il Balletto di Bronzo's Ys or elephant9's Walk the Nile ------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.” - Douglas Adams |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 13:11
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Concerning HELP, there was at some point plans for Jimi Hendrix to join the group for a collaboration but that fell apart when he... well, died. I have trouble imagining how it'd sound, though. ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 13:20
| No kidding---seems like Hendrix and Emerson would've both fought for the spotlight and tried to take the lead. If they'd ever got to the point where they traded leads and pushed one another, though...Watch out! They were both experimenters with a lot of flair. |
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 13:30
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It's extra weird because ELP are as purely European in cultural origin as rock music can get... as a matter of fact, wasn't that Keith Emerson's entire concept with the group? ------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 13:42
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You're right, Emerson and Lake (starting with his work in KC) were all about doing music based on the European traditions (classical composers, avant-garde, theatre, etc.) rather than the US rhythm and blues-based tradition like most of traditional rock. That's one of the things that earned them the hatred of the established music press---"Hey, get out of our sandbox! You can't play like that!" Personally, I think their music lost a little of its potency when they strayed from Bartok, Ginastera and Mussorgsky into Copeland as far as their inspiration, but that's just me...
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 16:14
never really considered that... likely some truth in that....excellent viewpoint. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 20:17
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We were jilted on Love Beach ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 21:48
Well, I rather dislike Hoedown, and am not particularly fond of Fanfare for the Common Man, either, so you might be right at that. Though they did make some things that would remind be of Hoedown before, and those are the main sort of tunes that turn me off from many of their songs. |
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 21:53
| And about Howe, I hadn't read before about him actually jamming with ELP. What I had read is that the idea of ELP was always a keyboard led trio, and they didn't want a guitar in the band... but that if Emerson ever wanted a guitar player with the band, that would have been Howe. So, how could it have worked? Howe in ELP and Fripp in Yes? That would have meant no more King Crimson... at least not in the 70's. However, of course I'm perfectly fine with the way things came out... that's the music we all got to know... and most of us got to love. |
Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: June 24 2015 at 23:59
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Don't you think that compared to ELP, Genesis/Yes/Floyd/Tull are easy listening, foot tappers ? That is not a negative remark, those bands made some of my all time favourite albums but ELP required a bit more concentration. I suppose I have three or four ELP albums, all vinyl. (ELP, Tarkus, Pictures, and Brain Salad). Interesting pieces every one of them but they don't get inside me in the same way as e.g Close to the Edge. I'm loathe to say which is their 'best' work but Tarkus is my favourite. To my ears it is where The Nice and KC came together. Interestingly enough I'm listening to Tarkus as I type and it sounds a lot lighter than I remember so maybe all that above is nonsense. Even so, the likes of Yes and Genesis are definitely more accessable, to my ears at least. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 25 2015 at 05:56
| Yeah I would agree with that. Esp Floyd and Tull who often times embellished rock songs with more sophisticated instrumentation. Yes and Genesis experimented more with structure but often with a great pop song at the core (which made it catchy). ELP are somewhere in the middle - not as accessible as these bands and more accessible than GG or KC. That might account for the relative lack of favour for their work even on a prog forum. |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 25 2015 at 06:37
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That's why ELP were, and always, exciting as their music demanded attention (but what about Lake's stuff I hear you say...you know which music I am talking about). I am not sure about the drift from European classicism being part of their downfall - Ginastera's 'Toccata' (one of their most blistering interpretations) does not seem to fit this argument. Much overlooked on Love Beach is their interpretation of 'Canario', which is similarly breathless. |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 25 2015 at 07:58
| Canario is hands-down the best track on Love Beach, no arguments there. As far as the urgency of their music, it seemed like it started to fade a bit from the debut album onward, especially as their interest in covering Copeland grew over the other classical composers...could've been coincidence. Another thing that hurt post-74 ELP was Emerson's infatuation with the Korg/Yamaha synths and abandoning the Hammond somewhat. His organ work was such a core part of the Nice/ELP sound. Plus the increasing record company pressure to be more "hit-oriented", same thing that messed up Yes and Genesis in the late 70's and awful 80's... |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 25 2015 at 08:16
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...and I for one, am grateful that ELP did have the grace to jack it in when they did (unlike their peers...) The ELPowell album was a credible reprise when you consider the same year Genesis put out 'Invisible Touch' and the following year Yes came up with 'Big Generator'. I know which one of those I'd rather listen to! I also understand the bit about changing technology but I felt Emerson had to move with the times - his peers were also updating their keyboard banks. |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 25 2015 at 11:04
| Yeah, I thought ELPowell was a pretty good compromise between pop pressures and prog, better than those others you mention. I thought their Black Moon album in the 90's was pretty good as well. Not so much the In the Hot Seat album, though....by that time, Lake's voice was gone and Emerson's nerve problems impeding him...it's hell to grow old! |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 25 2015 at 12:34
I don't see it that way, thanks to the likes of "The Endless Enigma," "Trilogy," "Living Sin" and the triumphant "Karn Evil 9," which enjoys a long, ongoing reign as my single favorite ELP composition.
The 1986 album was a solid comeback, with some great tracks in "The Miracle" and "Touch and Go." The only really "bad" track was the CD bonus track of the instrumental arrangement of "The Loco-motion." It was silly. I didn't like "The Score" when I first heard it, but it grew on me. I even like "Love Blind" and "Step Aside"! I agree about Invisible Touch, but Big Generator does have some good songs. For me, Emerson, Lake & Powell has the edge. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: June 25 2015 at 17:31
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ELP were very much saddled with the post punk dinosaur label, probably more than most others. Maybe that accounts for this supposed lack of respect even amongst lovers of the Prog genre. ref Invisible Touch .... not awful but largely irrelevent. I wish Genesis had packed it in after Genesis. Duke was an absolute ripper, had they stopped there I'd have been left wondering but the opening bars of Mama have an expired use by date on 'em and it was pretty much downhill from there. Of course there is the odd stand out track but nothing that brings out the goofy grin of musical satisfaction. |
Posted By: t d wombat
Date Posted: June 25 2015 at 17:47
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My whoops ..... I forgot about Abacab which as a whole didn't much impress me either. Sorry ... straying off topic somewhat. |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 03:10
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Just to return to the topic, ELP's Works tour did have some vitality - and urgency. The live versions of 'Pirates' (without the orchestra) is stunning but a real gem was 'The Enemy God' where Emerson brilliantly fills for the missing orchestra - 'Tank' sounded great live too (ref: Live at Nassau Colosseum). |
Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 03:55
| You would not have seen Tony Banks on a levitating spinning piano. |
Posted By: Tom Ozric
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 05:22
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Four, that's right, 4 pages in and I STILL don't understand why this question even exists........
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Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 05:27
| I think it is because of the venom directed at ELP in the late 70s, and it has marked those of us who lived through it. I don't have it to hand, but Danny Baker's sleeve notes to the High Voltage compilation say it all... |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 07:30
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I love ELP's first 6 albums up until Welcome Back, but to me they came out on fire in their debut. There was this angry, violent "we're tank treads and we're gonna grind you up!" spirit that infused their music. Check out the Barbarian, parts of Three Fates, Knife Edge, the ending of Tank after the drum break...this was aggressive prog like "Prog metal with an organ". There were the two mellow Lake songs, but even the piano improv part of Take A Pebble has this driven quality. You can see their intensity in the IOW video. Maybe it was coincidence, but that's the period where they were inspired most by Bartok, Janacek, etc. This violent, impassioned streak was still there in Tarkus (the title track, Bitches Crystal, Time and a Place), but there were also some lackadaisical songs on side 2. It was there in parts of Pictures (Blues Variation, Gates of Kiev). Trilogy was a more mellow album and didn't seem to have this intensity, except for maybe the solo/conclusion of the title track (Not that that's bad---I love Trilogy and think bands can and should show different facets of their music in different albums.) Coincidentally, this was when the Copland tunes start to crop up. BSS had this sense of urgency in Toccata and KE9 1st impression, but again, it wasn't maintained thru all the songs (even though that was a fine album). After their break, Works comes out with their longest Copland adaptation (Fanfare) and a lot of their intensity is gone. I do love Fanfare and Pirates, but much of Works I is noodling around. By Works II, they're covering Scott Joplin and Meade Lux Lewis...I don't see any intensity here at all. While I like the sheer diversity of Works II, it's a far, far cry from the debut. The only song with any intensity at all on Love Beach was the Ginastera cover. I guess that's what I mean about gradual loss of urgency/intensity from the debut album onward. Whether it correlates to the classical artists they drew their inspiration from is a subjective view...
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Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 07:36
| As an aside, the only time I saw ELP live was the 77 Works I tour sans the orchestra and they were smokin'. From what I read later, the orchestra nearly broke them financially in that tour and they had to grimly soldier on as a 3-piece. They were certainly full of piss & vinegar when I saw them. So, they could still play with intensity in a live setting. It just seems to me their albums started to suffer from a lack of it... |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 08:12
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What was the Ginastera cover on Love Beach? I thought the only cover on that was by Rodrigo ('Canario') |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 08:17
| You are absolutely correct...I was thinking that was a Ginastera piece, but it's not...I hang my head in shamed disgrace! |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:00
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Anyway, I didn't get to see ELP live until 1992 - one of my treasured memories... |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:19
| I bet it was! Black Moon was a pretty fresh album from them and I imagine that was the tour supporting it. Would love to hear what the highlights were for you...In 77 they opened up with this crushing monster version of the Peter Gunn song, played an extended blues jam in the middle of Fanfare and did the full Pictures. Emo still used his polyphonic moog and played two banks of keyboards with either hand. Didn't see the organ knife, though...They also did a great version of Knife Edge, Enemy God and Pirates...with no orchestra, Emo was really working to provide all the accompaniment on keyboards, as you can imagine... |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:24
| I hail from Alabama in the USA, which is in the heart of the South (think country and blues territory, with New Orleans and their jazz tradition 3 hours away). So, many of the bands I saw, knowing they were in blues country, would venture into it a little when they played there. I saw Jeff Beck with Jan Hammer in 76, touring with his prog/jazz-fusion band and Beck stopped halfway thru the show, let the other musicians take a break, and mock-drawled: "I hear y'all love the blues down here?", after which he played old blues tunes for about an hour. One of the best shows I saw... |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:24
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I also saw ELP on the Black Moon tour, at the Wiltern Theater in Los Angeles. It was one incredible evening. I think everyone there was a diehard fan! The next night (which I did not attend) was simulcast on KLOS. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:26
Damn! Color me green. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:29
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I think I was slightly overwhelmed to begin with as, at the time, I never thought I would get the chance to see them live. I recall 'Tarkus' and 'Pirates' as being particular highlights, for me at least, although I had not heard Black Moon prior to the concert. Then, I had to wait another 18 years to see them again (I don't care what people say - I loved what may have well been their final performance at High Voltage)... |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:31
I thought it was utterly cool when they launched into "Touch and Go"! ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:31
| Man, I bet that was a great show...one thing about the prog bands of old when they toured after the 70's, it was in smaller venues and you were surrounded by die-hard fans...I caught the Moody Blues in Dallas sometime in the 80's, I think, with Patrick Moraz on keys. It was an open-air venue with perfect acoustics and they traded out vocalists (Haywood, Lodge, Pinder) such that none of them lost their "studio voice" during the show. Great show! No one there buy Moody fans... |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:33
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Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:35
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I think that the first time that I saw them was on the Black Moon tour too. I was definitely amazed by Emerson's keyboard and moog playing and Palmer's drum solo. The second time that I saw them they were touring with Dream Theater and Deep Purple. That was a pretty great show too. ------------- 
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Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:44
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Yeah, Beck is to me one of the greatest pure technicians of the guitar there is, and has weathered the years and maintained his edge better than anyone else, along with Hackett. I'm an old fart (55) and saw a lot of great shows in the golden days. Highlights were: Blue Oyster Cult/Rush...Neil Peart was a freakin' drum maniac...best drummer I've seen live, along with Palmer! Eddie Money/Bob Welch/Santana (tho I'm lukewarm on Eddie Money, he had a pretty good guitarist on his debut album...this guitarist, Bob Welch---old Fleetwood Mac blues guy---and Santana jammed on the encore...Santana would just bob his head and groove on their playing, then blow them away...I swear, Santana could hit a sustain note and smoke a cigarette alsmot before it died away! Van Halen/Doobie Bros/Stones in 77 or 78...the Doobies were actually the best band of the 3! Kansas on their first album tour, my first taste of prog. Kansas became a pop/arena band, but their first album was an incredible progfest! Clapton with the Bob Dylan Rolling Thunder Review Pink Floyd on the Wall tour Man, great memories...sorry for getting off topic on an ELP thread!
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Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 09:58
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Off topic... If you had to go to Auburn, I pity you!
As a grad of Alabama, they are our bitter arch-rival in college football...the winner of the Bama-Auburn game has gone to the National Championship game or playoff every year for the last 5 years...a high stakes game to say the least...think Manchester United vs Liverpool in England... |
Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 10:03
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saw them in '92 too. Saw all 3 shows at Royal Albert Hall. It was a good show (waaayy better than 2010 when saw then at high voltage) and I was pleasantly surprised as I am no fan of ELP. Hard to believe now, but this show was broadcast live (i think with 30 mins delay) on BBC radio One....BBC RADIO ONE, the station that plays the sh*ttest form of sh*t with DJs who are all now on sexual offenders register (citation needed). Best part of show was when emerson got twiddly bit on his moog console to make the RAH reverbarate during the end of lucky man solo You know the DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH bit. |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 10:07
| The first and only time I saw them was on the Black Moon tour in Ottawa in January of 1993-great show, and in a small venue, so I could see everything up close. They opened their set with the Tarkus suite, with a bit of other music added to it. My favourite part was a jazz instrumental section led by Emerson on the piano-wonderful! |
Posted By: Big Kid Josie
Date Posted: June 26 2015 at 10:13
| When I caught them in 77, it was a 30,000-40,000 seat auditorium, but I was front row---we used to wait outside for 2 hrs indulging in the party scene until they opened the doors and race to the stage and could reach out and touch them, practically. Seemed like a lot more chemistry between Emerson and Palmer than Lake...Lake still sung beautifully, though. That was before his voice started to age. |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 28 2015 at 11:15
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Yes, it's a shame that Lake's voice noticably deteriorated over the years. I saw Tull in 2011 and the same had happened to Ian Anderson - c'est la vie! |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: June 29 2015 at 08:01
Right back atcha, Big Kid - I'm 56. I don't think I saw as many shows as you as a teenager, but I saw some pretty good ones:
- 1976: Chicago at the Anaheim (California) Stadium - still playing the proto-prog goodies in that one! - 1977: Yes - 'Going for the One' tour at the LA Forum (way before the Staples Arena). Again, they played great ones especially from Fragile, CTTE, and Relayer. Of course, Parallels and Awaken are the BEST off of GFTO. - 1978: Kansas 'Point of Know Return' tour. Played a couple from their first album, then maybe one each from Song for America, Masque, and Leftoverture - a nice concert with some of their better earlier music. - 1978: Camel - at UC San Diego where I was an undergrad student - a great, great show. - 1978: Jethro Tull, led off by U.K. By then, Bozzio was the U.K. drummer. Another great drum talent right up their with Peart. But, Barrimore Barlow of Tull - OMG - an absolutely phenomenal drummer! Have to say he is about my all-time favorite - better than Palmer, better than Peart - better than anybody! So, yeah, we did get off topic. Back on topic then: I have the DVDs of some of ELP's early shows, especially Isle of Wight. Love their youthful exhuberance in those early shows, and absolutely love the long stringy hair on all three of them! |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: June 29 2015 at 09:10
I saw Tull in '89 and he was already fairly thrashed. He sounded good in his 'low' voice but when he tried to jump an octave, it wasn't pretty. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: JD
Date Posted: June 29 2015 at 20:06
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They've been my favourite band since I was 12 (1970) and I first heard The Three Fates at a summer drop in centre. The big brother of one of my friends had brought his album to listen to and I just couldn't get enough of it. I believe they were mostly mis-understood having been for far ahead of the curve for their time. As as for the critics who bashed them, all I would say to them today is, "and who the hell are you?" No one would say that about any of ELP. So love then or hate them, whatever you want, but you have to respect them, they defined a sound that has only ever been copied and never bettered. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: ghost_of_morphy
Date Posted: June 29 2015 at 22:03
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ELP was brilliant from Tarkus to Brain Salad Surgery... Works 1 was ok.. the rest can go on the trash pile. ------------- 
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 29 2015 at 22:13
I don't think the problem with their popularity is that they were ahead of their time, since it seems they were more popular within prog circles (and in rock circles in general) in the 70's than they are today. |
Posted By: lostrom
Date Posted: June 29 2015 at 22:21
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Works Vol. II is a masterpiece! ------------- lostrom |
Posted By: Flight123
Date Posted: June 30 2015 at 07:53
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It's a real shame this ever saw the light of day - except for 'Apple Blossom' (which was recorded in 73 anyway) - the knives were already out by then. It's actually far inferior than Love Beach. |