Dream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators

Indeed and I do think the actual track of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is probably the last truly amazing thing they did. The song runs the gamut and the lyrical content is just as good. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they haven't made anything good since then, but if we're talking innovation and something stellar, 6DOIT should definitely be mentioned.

Metropolis 2 was actually supposed to be part of a double-disc set included on Falling Into Infinity but the label thought making a double CD would be in poor taste.

Cristi wrote: I say Innovators for their early days, the albums with Kevin Moore; back then they were quite unique; surely, they had all sorts of influences, but then again who hasn't. All those influences put together made something new. Images and Words and Awake were and still are great albums that for better or worse, made a new progressive metal sound back then.

Never leave out Metropolis 2 and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Those are two must-haves for anyone wanting to get into Dream Theater and right up there with Images & Words and Awake.

moshkito wrote: [QUOTE=Prog Snob] I think 10% less on the guitar and more on the others would likely make this band a lot better.   That's an idea, though ... please mind that!

Catcher10 wrote: Well I don't know anyone intimately within Dream Theater, so who knows who has influenced them especially from the classical genre, maybe a lot maybe nobody, anyone's guess. I also have no idea about KC influences, especially classical....I suppose anybody can say they were influenced by a classical composer.

moshkito wrote: Prog Snob wrote:  ... Octavarium isn't an album with which I have an overall issue. It's just Never Enough. With the two CDs after that I just felt like something was missing. Also, just to clarify, I have no issue with their w**kery personally. I didn't use it as a personal attack against the band. It is just a term I hear used constantly to describe what they do. I could listen to Petrucci and Rudess go off all day long.   I simply think (book review in the proper section!), that if there is an issue it might be the way they write their music and lyrics, and I'm  wondering if subliminally there is a "separation" that alienates a lot of people that they try to replace with their musical ability ... but it creates a different experience for many people and makes it harder to follow and appreciate.   I do not think that Rudess needs to come off like a Norlander, or Wakeman or Emerson, in other words ... I'M HERE! ... kind of thing, but I do think that he should be less in the background and that too much of the band is on the guitarist ... I think 10% less on the guitar and more on the others would likely make this band a lot better.   That's an idea, though ... please mind that!

I agree with your sentiments. I would love Rudess to be more of a contributor and more in the forefront. He is just too damn talented to leave almost hidden.

TradeMark0 wrote: True, but I was saying there is a difference between being classically trained and being influenced by a composer, such as how King Crimson was influenced Bartok and Stravinsky.

Metalmarsh89 wrote: Prog Snob wrote: I'm happy with the last two CDs as the few before that I felt were just far too much under the control of Mike Portnoy. No offense to him but I felt like he was trying to get Dream Theater to sound like his favorite band at the moment. My least favorite song being from Octavarium which was Never Enough. It was the Mike Portnoy whinefest where he tried to get James to sound like the singer from Muse. Portnoy having LaBrie singing like Matthew Bellamy beats Portnoy singing (lead) any day. Seriously.

Well I think that goes without saying. Is there anybody who thinks that Portnoy singing is a good idea...besides Portnoy and Neal Morse?

Metalmarsh89 wrote: I also think that Never Enough is a good song and very aptly placed on the album. The album starts with a bang, but then moves into a slower pace with The Answer Lies Within. But then momentum continues to build through the next few songs. Panic Attack gets that momentum going again after the listener has settled in. Never Enough continues that same fervor from before. The vocals have much more urgency to them, and that instrumental break before the final chorus is almost orgasmic, Portnoy and Petrucci working together perfectly. Then Sacrificed Sons settles back down for a moment, but that feeling that was built up translates into a really dark atmosphere, before shifting back to the amazing second half of the song. And than you've got that 5 minute intro in the title track. Some people call it w**kery. For me, I need that moment to recover from Sacrificed Sons. That song just sends me on a musical high, and I need that break for a few minutes. But not only does it act as a break, it reshifts the focus into that epic.

Octavarium isn't an album with which I have an overall issue. It's just Never Enough. With the two CDs after that I just felt like something was missing. Also, just to clarify, I have no issue with their w**kery personally. I didn't use it as a personal attack against the band. It is just a term I hear used constantly to describe what they do. I could listen to Petrucci and Rudess go off all day long.

They have been my favorite band for a long time. However, I am not going to go all fan-boy on everyone as I can give a completely unbiased and well thought out opinion on the matter. I consider them innovative in the sense that Images and Words was like nothing before it. I'm not saying they invented the prog metal genre nor was Images and Words the first prog metal CD. It was just a brilliant collection of songs that combined different influences in such a unique way that it was a breath of fresh air. I don't want to say that it was the highlight of their career because they've had many acheivements since then. However, I can't deny that being somewhere near the top.

I don't think they have put out anything close to Images and Words. I'm not saying that every album after that has been subpar, BUT album after album when I think of my Top 50 Dream Theater songs, every song from Images and Words manages to stay on the list. CDs like Metropolis 2, Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, and Awake are all amazing in their own way. I think with their last two releases, the band has moved back in that direction. The last release was specifically written with the mindset of creating songs and not just making it a complete w**kfest. When you listen to songs like Surrender To Reason, The Bigger Picture, The Looking Glass, you can undoubtedly hear that.

I'm happy with the last two CDs as the few before that I felt were just far too much under the control of Mike Portnoy. No offense to him but I felt like he was trying to get Dream Theater to sound like his favorite band at the moment. My least favorite song being from Octavarium which was Never Enough. It was the Mike Portnoy whinefest where he tried to get James to sound like the singer from Muse.

there totally PORG INNOVATORS 

TradeMark0 wrote: Catcher10 wrote: A lot of musicians are classically trained as kids, started playing the piano and taught by a teacher who probably was classically trained. I remember when I was in band in elementary school most if not all pcs we were taught to play were from the classical genre.....I was never given music sheets by The Who, Zeppelin, Genesis or the Fab Four.  True, but I was saying there is a difference between being classically trained and being influenced by a composer, such as how King Crimson was influenced Bartok and Stravinsky.