Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation - Dream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators

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Dream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators

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Topic: Dream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators

Posted By: SteveG
Subject: Dream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 10:43

Dream Theater: Innovators or imitators? When I think of Prog rock I think of bands on a quest to constantly break conventions and move music forward. As much as I enjoy some of the output from Dream Theater, I see them (like some other later day prog artists) as bands that wear their influences so proudly on their sleeves that they produce music that can only move sideways. So are Dream Theater innovators or merely imatators?

Replies:

Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 11:45

If they were innovators, what did they innovate? But, if they were imitators, who did they imitate? Those are the questions.

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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov

Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 12:29

Well at some point it seems all bands efforts move sideways when they get in a rut.....IMO right now DT are in a rut, for sure the last two albums are nothing ground breaking from an innovation view. When I think about their early albums like Scenes, SDoIT, Awake those were some pretty innovative albums and a lot of new prog/rock/metal bands acknowledge them as innovators.

Imitators, not sure as most bands do imitate the bands they get inspiration from, maybe not flown blown imitation but there are bits and pcs mixed in usually. With DT you can hear Rush, Yes, Genesis, PF, Metallica, Iron Maiden......but DT sounds like DT at least to me.

The key to me for DT is will they get out of this rut and create some new music to get excited about, in prog years they are not that old to learn something new or actually create a great album again. Portnoy is the only one who since the breakup has actually made some pretty good music albeit as a session drummer on some, but still, his work with Morse, Transatlantic and Winery Dogs is pretty damn good.

All this IMO

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Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 12:35

http://rateyourmusic.com/~Mister_Blonde" rel="nofollow - This reviewer at RateYourMusic really, really hates 'em.

On Images and Words....

Mister_Blonde wrote:

liked this when I was fifteen, on the general grounds that I was a dipsh*t teenager anyway. But this does have a few songs I still rather like, for nostalgic reasons. But it's not that good of an album, mostly because - as is the norm for this band - Dream Theater's softer moments are basically sh*t. It's because they're the most f**king obvious and sentimental schlock ever. Surrounded is like a sh*tty lifetime movie turned into a ballad. It's the worst and i'm one of those dumbf**ks who's suffered through Metropolis II multiple times.

But hey Pull Me Under is still a cool song! I mean it rides its hooks for f**king ever but at least it has some life and energy to it. It's a memorable song and the outro is legitimately boss as f**k. But what marrs the rest is what's been their bread and butter since forever - a ton of flashy soloing to cover up the fact that their songwriting has always been predictable verse-chorus. By which I really mean, verse-chorus-verse-chorus-extended f**king soloing that doesn't tie back into the rest appropriately, etc.

I've beaten the point into the ground a lot over the years, but Dream Theater really are exactly that compared to basically any of their prog rock influences. But still, there's actually some okay riffs/melodies on here. It's mediocre stuff, but hey, at least it feels like it f**king ends at some point unlike Metropolis II. I guess that's something.

On Metropolis Pt. 2...

Mister_Blonde wrote:

Everything that is horrible about progressive metal rolled up into one giant sh*tfest of an album. I almost want to call it the Tales of Topographic Oceans of metal music, but that's not even fair because Yes at least came up with like one or two okay moments? This is awful on every level, not even in a way where it's kinda funny. Everything about it is horrifically overwrought, from the ham-handed balladic sections to the 'look am we're so proggy admire these multi minute solos'

The difference between the best prog rock and even prog metal bands, and Dream Theater, is that the former actually knew how to use technique in a way that worked in the context of their composition. DT didn't, and to be boot they're arguably more formulaic than any of the prog or metal bands they're influenced by. Just putrid.

On Train of Thought...

Mister_Blonde wrote:

This album is 'dark' in about the same way a Lifetime special is dark.

Seriously, this album trying be all HEAVY, SONNNNNN is f**king hilarious. It's impossible to buy it because most of these riffs are just complete trash. It's a bunch of bad chugging, and what's more it's punchless on top of it. Inspired by 80's Metallica, you say? HA! Anyway, the rest of this is pretty standard Dream Theater, IE really bland and formulaic songs with a bunch of irritating soloing in the middle of these songs. No, they're not bad because they're solos, they're bad because they're not much more than an excuse to show off chops instead of being meaningfully integrated into the songs. This band's worst sin is how f**king formulaic and predictable most of their songs are - which, by the way, is the exact opposite of what a the majority of the prog rock bands they were inspired by were.

I'd despise prog too if this band was all I knew of it

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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook

Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 13:37

I hope those ridiculous "reviews" were posted for humor, as I don't really see the relevance here.........one uneducated listeners opinion is about as good as any other I suppose.

However, as to the question at hand.........my personal opinion, since I first heard Images and Words in the mid-90's is that they were mostly imitators. Some Rush riffs and drumming, some Pink Floyd atmosphere, some 70's fusion type instrumental workouts, 80's big hair band vocals, all mashed together with the "innovation" of metal distortion and double bass drumming.

On the other hand, nobody had really done that up to that point (though it could be argued that Metallica created far more interesting "progressive metal" music, back in the 80's, than DT ever came up with later on).

I don't think you can really overstate how important DT was (and maybe still is) to modern prog, though. A lot of people on this site, and that I've met at prog festivals over the years, were turned onto prog rock via DT. So whether or not they are originals or imitators (like most bands, I think they are somewhere in between), they certainly have had popularity and exposure well beyond the vast majority of most modern prog bands. Regardless of my personal opinion of them, they must have done something right.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 13:37

Mirror Image wrote:

If they were innovators, what did they innovate? But, if they were imitators, who did they imitate? Those are the questions.

If this is a philosophical question then I'll have to consult my wife. Every day she keeps telling me how smart she is!

But seriously, for an example of DT's imitation, I think back to the opening track from the second disc of the Six Degrees album titled Overture. If I remember correctly, it started off with a Moody Blues style Day's Of Future Passed album orchestral piece, morphed into short loud bass/drum/guitar section, resumed with synthesized strings that resembled the Eldorado overture from ELO before Petrucci caps off the song with one of his best Brian May impersonations. Stunningly beautiful piece but hardly original sounding in style. Right now I can't think of anything original by them but the day's not over yet.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 13:49

infandous wrote:

I hope those ridiculous "reviews" were posted for humor, as I don't really see the relevance here.........one uneducated listeners opinion is about as good as any other I suppose.However, as to the question at hand.........my personal opinion, since I first heard Images and Words in the mid-90's is that they were mostly imitators. Some Rush riffs and drumming, some Pink Floyd atmosphere, some 70's fusion type instrumental workouts, 80's big hair band vocals, all mashed together with the "innovation" of metal distortion and double bass drumming.On the other hand, nobody had really done that up to that point (though it could be argued that Metallica created far more interesting "progressive metal" music, back in the 80's, than DT ever came up with later on).I don't think you can really overstate how important DT was (and maybe still is) to modern prog, though. A lot of people on this site, and that I've met at prog festivals over the years, were turned onto prog rock via DT. So whether or not they are originals or imitators (like most bands, I think they are somewhere in between), they certainly have had popularity and exposure well beyond the vast majority of most modern prog bands. Regardless of my personal opinion of them, they must have done something right.

I would like to think that the answer to most arguments lies somewhere in the middle and your response was very insightful. The reason I asked the question in the first place was because after reading so many responses from members to the "What does progressive mean to you?" post, I was curious as to why so many prog bands and fans stay in their comfort zone, for lack of a better term. Thanks again for your response.

Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 13:57

Maybe DT was a band that push the progressive side of the metal to the edge by mixing the symphonic side of Yes, the hard rock and metal side of Rush and Metallica. I don't think they create the genre, but they find a great balance between musicianship and emotion in their songs. However, lately, the band is starting to repeat a bit too much the same formula. So to answer the question, mot totally innovator and not totally imitator.

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Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.

Emile M. Cioran

Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 14:02

SteveG wrote:

I would like to think that the answer to most arguments is somewhere in the middle and your response was very insightful. The reason I asked the question in the first place was because after reading so many responses from members to the "What does progressive mean to you?" post, I was curious as to why so many prog bands and fans stay in their comfort zone, for lack of a better term. Thanks again for your response.

No problem, glad I could help. As to "comfort zone".............I think the vast majority of music listeners (heck, musicians as well) always stay in theirs. Prog rock is supposed to be different, but I think it's the rare exception where that is true. Usually, after a certain age, most people have formed their views on most subjects, and are highly unlikely to change them barring some dramatic event that forces a change.

I notice people often get flac on here for not recognizing the brilliance of certain pop artists and mainstream music, while others seem to think that anything ever remotely conventionally melodic is too safe and "easy". People have comfort zones because people need to have stability in their lives, which seems to become more important the older one gets. This is not an absolute of course, as there are many exceptions (which tend to stand out and be noticed more because they are exceptions), but in general, everybody has a comfort zone.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 14:14

infandous wrote:

No problem, glad I could help. As to "comfort zone".............I think the vast majority of music listeners (heck, musicians as well) always stay in theirs. Prog rock is supposed to be different, but I think it's the rare exception where that is true. Usually, after a certain age, most people have formed their views on most subjects, and are highly unlikely to change them barring some dramatic event that forces a change.I notice people often get flac on here for not recognizing the brilliance of certain pop artists and mainstream music, while others seem to think that anything ever remotely conventionally melodic is too safe and "easy". People have comfort zones because people need to have stability in their lives, which seems to become more important the older one gets. This is not an absolute of course, as there are many exceptions (which tend to stand out and be noticed more because they are exceptions), but in general, everybody has a comfort zone.

Yes, I'm one of those always looking for a way to invent a better musical mousetrap but your words about people's need for a "comfort zone" are wisdom indeed.

Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 14:14

I'm not terribly into DT myself, but it seems like while they're important for either introducing prog rock fans to metal or vice versa - lots of people in either camp dislike them as either "prog for metalheads who are afraid of prog" or "metal for prog-rock fans who are afraid of metal".

The only other band I can think of who seems to draw similar reactions the same extent are probably Opeth.

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"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 15:36

Catcher10 wrote:

Well at some point it seems all bands efforts move sideways when they get in a rut.....IMO right now DT are in a rut, for sure the last two albums are nothing ground breaking from an innovation view. When I think about their early albums like Scenes, SDoIT, Awake those were some pretty innovative albums and a lot of new prog/rock/metal bands acknowledge them as innovators.

All this IMO

Your comments about Rush influences are dead on, but this band's sound was never immediately identifable to me. Perhaps if they a had a more distinctive vocalist. My father used to be able to recognise Geddy after just one syllable.(Perhaps because he hated his voice!) Not knocking La Brie, but his voice just doesn't stand out.

Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 15:37

SteveG wrote:

Mirror Image wrote:

If they were innovators, what did they innovate? But, if they were imitators, who did they imitate? Those are the questions.

If this is a philosophical question then I'll have to consult my wife. Every day she keeps telling me how smart she is!

But seriously, for an example of DT's imitation, I think back to the opening track from the second disc of the Six Degrees album titled Overture. If I remember correctly, it started off with a Moody Blues style Day's Of Future Passed album orchestral piece, morphed into short loud bass/drum/guitar section, resumed with synthesized strings that resembled the Eldorado overture from ELO before Petrucci caps off the song with one of his best Brian May impersonations. Stunningly beautiful piece but hardly original. Right now I can't think of anything original by them but the day's not over yet.

Well it is original DT music, maybe you are using the word original in a different way. I am sure nobody on this site has in-depth knowledge to say that when they recorded Overture DT were copying The Moody Blues, ELO and Queen, or even if they got inspiration from those bands in that one pc of music.

Not every pc of music any band creates has to be innovative or imitated.

This thread is going all over the place, or it can it seems. In the title of this post you can insert pretty much any band name

(nsert Band Name): Prog innovators or merely imitators

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 15:54

Catcher10 wrote:

SteveG wrote:

Mirror Image wrote:

If they were innovators, what did they innovate? But, if they were imitators, who did they imitate? Those are the questions.

If this is a philosophical question then I'll have to consult my wife. Every day she keeps telling me how smart she is!

But seriously, for an example of DT's imitation, I think back to the opening track from the second disc of the Six Degrees album titled Overture. If I remember correctly, it started off with a Moody Blues style Day's Of Future Passed album orchestral piece, morphed into short loud bass/drum/guitar section, resumed with synthesized strings that resembled the Eldorado overture from ELO before Petrucci caps off the song with one of his best Brian May impersonations. Stunningly beautiful piece but hardly original. Right now I can't think of anything original by them but the day's not over yet.

(nsert Band Name): Prog innovators or merely imitators

Correct. I shoud have said that the peice was beautiful but completely derivative. I agree that not every pc of music should be innovative but a majority of it should. You seem to know what I'm on about so using your (insert Band Name) here suggestion would indeed introduce many wandering threads. BTW, saying that a PC of music is in the style of someone else's music is not copying, it is only imitating the style of the music. Big difference.

Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 16:40

Well one synonym for imitate is copy. Now introducing the word style, well many many bands have the same style.
Do I think Overture could be in the same style as Moody Blues, Queen or ELO pcs...sure why not.

A lot of DT songs have that symphonic/orchestral style, feel to them like Overture, Octavarium heck even In the Presence of Enemies has that style...but I don't think it is an imitation or copy.

But again, that's just me...

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 16:52

^I was using copy as in a reproduction of music note per musical note but as a synonym, well, you got me there. Bowdown

Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 17:26

Its good we worked things out

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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 19:19

It's a bit of both. One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet. Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior. Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to. (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead. Not all metalheads, including self, are like that). They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists. Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes. They want a metal equivalent of these bands. That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s. Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time. Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes. DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more. In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality. But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance. I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words. They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh. And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 19:33

Another point is they have a tendency to rely on some cliched modes of developing songs. E.g The way Surrounded opens with some cheesy singing over piano and moves on to a fairly hard rocking section but over rather 'happy' chords is very 80s. That is also pretty typical of metal. The 80s defined metal's horizons for a very long time and that is probably still the case to an extent so 80s modes of songwriting are very popular in metal. Ballads HAVE to follow the power ballad pattern; there's no room for vulnerability, longing or tenderness as those are not very 'metal' qualities. You'd notice that while Petrucci is immensely talented, a lot of his solos follow the patterns that many 80s metal/hard rock guitarists favoured. Because if he tried to play like Hackett or Rothery, the fans wouldn't like it. LaBrie's overwrought singing also relates to this, though I wonder if he can indeed sing any other way, given how he renders even classics like Time. According to ex-Fates Warning vocalist Jon Arch, when he auditioned for Dream Theater, they tried to get him to sing in a way he didn't enjoy LOL

because that's what they wanted. They knew their audience well from the start and stuck to the winning formula. What I am saying is that is why you may be left with the feeling they don't have a particularly identifiable sound because it evokes 80s a lot.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 21:17

I'm not sure I'd agree that Metallica ever went truly progressive. Perhaps they just got close, but no more. Besides, I find most of their songs rather tedious (though there are indeed some songs from them I really love), while I do have loads of songs from DT that I really love a lot.

Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 21:51

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One

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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 22:00

rogerthat wrote:

Another point is they have a tendency to rely on some cliched modes of developing songs. E.g The way Surrounded opens with some cheesy singing over piano and moves on to a fairly hard rocking section but over rather 'happy' chords is very 80s. That is also pretty typical of metal. The 80s defined metal's horizons for a very long time and that is probably still the case to an extent so 80s modes of songwriting are very popular in metal. Ballads HAVE to follow the power ballad pattern; there's no room for vulnerability, longing or tenderness as those are not very 'metal' qualities. You'd notice that while Petrucci is immensely talented, a lot of his solos follow the patterns that many 80s metal/hard rock guitarists favoured. Because if he tried to play like Hackett or Rothery, the fans wouldn't like it. LaBrie's overwrought singing also relates to this, though I wonder if he can indeed sing any other way, given how he renders even classics like Time. According to ex-Fates Warning vocalist Jon Arch, when he auditioned for Dream Theater, they tried to get him to sing in a way he didn't enjoy LOL

I guess you could say LaBrie can sing very high or very softly. Though if he wants (or needs) to sing loud, he will go for that horrible high pitch of his. However, when he sings softly, such as he does with many of the other Pink Floyd covers, I actually rather enjoy his singing.

Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 22:08

Dream Theater are hardly a favourite band of mine (although I do seem to own all their albums, go figure), but I definitely would consider them innovators of the prog-metal type bands. They're frequently referred to in reviews for other artists in the same genre, compared to even. They set a number of the elements that are quite cliched amongst those bands nowadays, and there's a reason there's not a lot of metal bands have come close to their level of status.

They are in serious need of some fresh inspiration and a rethink on how not to keep treading water and putting out rehashes of their earlier works, but definitely up until the last couple of albums I think they were certainly innovative.

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 22:36

Dellinger wrote:

LaBrie has a great voice and astonishing range. The problem is when he sings softly, he can try too hard to emphasise the emotions. The Hey You cover is a good example. When he sings in a more metal, loud way, his diction gets battered high up (chorus of Caught in a web).

Posted By: Altairius
Date Posted: June 09 2014 at 23:54

Innovators, obviously. The classic, "symphonic" prog metal style = DT

Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 00:02

For a band that was formed in the mid-80's they are releasing some mighty good music. Even just looking at the big 6 prog acts of the 70's, how does their output from the 90's compare to Dream Theater's most recent albums? Yes and Pink Floyd had good decades (though PF only had one new studio album). King Crimson had also released some good music, though under different names. Jethro Tull released new music, though as far as I know, it went kinda unnoticed. ELP and Genesis released some notoriously bad albums (the rating speak for them, not me). These dates correspond with where DT is right now in their career, considering they are 20+ years removed from possibly their best album, I would argue that they are still doing very well and releasing some good music. Are they still innovating? That's debatable, and not very likely. But the only thing they are imitating at this point is themselves.

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Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here .

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 01:05

rogerthat wrote:

It's a bit of both. One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet. Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior. Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to. (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead. Not all metalheads, including self, are like that). They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists. Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes. They want a metal equivalent of these bands. That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s. Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time. Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes. DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more. In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality. But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance. I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words. They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh. And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.

Interesting comments but I don't agree that Dream Theater carried on copying Images and Words. I think their albums certainly up to about Octavarium were distinct in style. Train Of Thought was almost a complete curve ball some might say. I think they got a bit lost after that though. All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 01:37

Didn't say they were just copying. Just that at times they have sounded as if they are in a time warp,still in the 90s, having just released Images and with more to come. They didn't respond to changes in the Noughties the way, say, PoS did. And that happens to lots of bands, nothing new.

Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 05:21

Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One

I think the title tracks of Justice and MoP would count too, if One does. Even something like the Four Horsemen, while not as dynamic, has more different sections to it than One.

Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 08:49

It's no secret I'm not a Dream Theater enthusiast and although I can admire their technical proficiency, I do so with the same lukewarm regard I reserve for the sterile professionalism embodied by my Dentist. However, I've never really bought into the idea that DT provide a portal to the wider compass of Prog for initiates. Apart from the versions of so-called classic Prog tracks on Jordan Rudess solo albums and those covered by DT, I can't see any evidence for anyone sprinting down to a record store to buy all the Genesis, ELP, Yes, Crimson or Gentle Giant that they can afford after hearing a DT album. OK, it might turn a plain vanilla metal-head onto the likes of Rush, Opeth, Tool, Pain of Salvation etc but to my ears, DT is that tattooed chick in the leather pants who works in the library, has a share portfolio but considers gambling abhorrent and deems complete derangement of the senses might be delivered via a double skinny macchiato with croutons.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 08:58

Always enjoy your posts RT, but i'm not sure that DT ever truly came up with their own original identifiable sound (and I have all their albums) as opposed to a group like Rush who took their metal and prog influences and forged them into their own original trade mark sound and are still making quality music right up to now, IMO. So it's not a matter of me picking on a band for falling into a rut or getting complacent but of one not being able to meld it's various influences into a distinct musical identity. Again, all of this my subjective opinion which at the end of the day means scwat! LOL

Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 09:20

Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One

I'd actually say that is one of the LEAST prog related songs on that album. Just my opinion. And we're supposed to be talking about DT Wink

Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 09:29

SteveG wrote:

Well, I think DT certainly has developed a distinctive style of their own. I think they pushed metal into new directions (which is something I KNOW Metallica did). However, to me, it seems they have been copying themselves (and other bands) since at least 6 Degrees......possibly even earlier.

Personally, I have encountered DT fans that have come to prog thanks to them. Sure, some of them never went beyond prog metal, but some did actually discover they liked the old Genesis, Yes, ELP, etc. stuff. They certainly helped to make the prog genre as a whole more visible to a lot more people. Sure, they probably didn't add any fans to RPI and RIO and Canterbury, but they certainly elevated the modern prog scene to some extent.

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:01

SteveG wrote:

Always enjoy your posts RT, but i'm not sure that DT ever truly came up with their own original identifiable sound (and I have all their albums) as opposed to a group like Rush who took their metal and prog influences and forged them into their own original trade mark sound and are still making quality music right up to now, IMO. So it's not a matter of me picking on a band for falling into a rut or getting complacent but of one not being able to meld it's various influences into a distinct musical identity. Again, all of this my subjective opinion which at the end of the day means scwat! LOL

Oh, I was not targeting your post when I said what I did about DT simply going through what many bands that have been around for a long time tend to.

But as for a distinct musical identity, well, it depends on whether you accept the premise that prog metal has its own distinct identity. I do, because prog rock doesn't rely anywhere as much on heavy guitar riffs. With that established, it has to be said that DT are one of the definitive and one of the most influential prog metal bands. Sure, there were a few bands that preceded them, but it was after Images & Words that prog metal grew rapidly. As Aussie Byrd Brother said, they are the band with which other prog metal bands are most frequently compared and that says it all. There are, as I pointed out earlier, certain very generic elements and approaches to prog rock within the typical melodic prog metal sound that DT have defined. But it is they who did it and other bands simply followed their lead. So I would rank them as one of the most original and distinct bands in all rock music from the 90s even though I am definitely not a huge fan of them. Yes, I don't think they have been as original as Yes or Genesis or Rush but there are plenty of other prog rock bands who are far more culpable in that regard than DT. Certain contemporaries of DT that I shall not name here, for instance. Wink

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:03

King Crimson776 wrote:

Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One

I think the title tracks of Justice and MoP would count too, if One does. Even something like the Four Horsemen, while not as dynamic, has more different sections to it than One.

Ditto. Probably also Orion.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:04

infandous wrote:

SteveG wrote:

[QUOTE=rogerthat] It's a bit of both. One thing you have to understand is metal dudes think there is no other music like metal on the planet. Yeah, everything else, be it rock, jazz, classical, funk whatever is grossly inferior. Therefore, for everything rock does, there has to be a metal equivalent because that is what metalheads are going to listen to. (And by the way, I refer here to a certain kind of metalhead. Not all metalheads, including self, are like that). They don't want Zappa or Sparks, they want Faith No More or Freak Kitchen which is basically the metal equivalent of those bands/artists. Likewise, they don't want Rush or Yes. They want a metal equivalent of these bands. That is the gap that Dream Theater filled in the 90s. Since there had been no out and out metal band before (Deep Purple/Rainbow don't count, I mean metal influenced by Iron Maiden/Metallica) that relied so much on complex keyboard-guitar interplay, there was a certain freshness to their sound at that time. Fates Warning was already doing something somewhat on those lines but they were a lot tighter and relied less on long interludes. DT by incorporating long interludes evoked prog rock a lot more. In fairness to them, Petrucci's guitarwork was also more inspired at that time and showed more than just flashes of originality. But after a while, as it happens with so many bands, DT became a formula to endlessly regurgitate for the satisfaction of fans and the 'dream' part of the name receded in relevance. I mean, it's more like they are dreaming they are still in the 90s, still just released Images & Words. They aren't really dreaming up anything fresh. And again, that is hard and a lot of bands that lasted that long got stuck in a rut so there's no reason why DT should be singled out for criticism on that count.

Can't deny the importance of DT as originating the prog/metal genre. But as for influencing other metal bands, i don't know, seems like it's a back and forth thing and I listen to a lot of metal. SG

Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:45

richardh wrote:

...
All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.

Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.

Like my review of the book on them, this is a band that deserves a lot more credit for what they do. Just because it "sounds" like "metal", does not mean that the compositional side of the work they do is not well done, or worthy of attention. Their work is very good and well defined, despite the usual fickle-ness of many fans liking one thing over another. I don't hear Richard saying that he likes Beethoven's 5th and the other symphonies are the sukk'iaki! Or anyone else for that matter.

It kinda tells you that the media today, while helping us HEAR all these things, are also having us hear comments that makes us not understand or be able to actually listen to these things. MY EXPERIENCE, of listening to these long cuts is no different than listening to the 5th or the 9th or the Rite of Spring. I can close my eyes, and the mind trips! Even their lyrics, which many do not like and consider not very good, do not seem to disturb the "visual" that I have of it all while listening. And to me, that is the most enjoyable moments in music, so if I hear a guitar going all over for 5 minutes, is it any different than a violin in a Concerto by Mozart or anyone else? Except that you and I would say, today, that blah and blah, because we're not listening to the whole thing ... we're separating elements that we don't like!

Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?

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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 10:53

So you don't have any artists in your collection, where you dislike certain albums, songs or even sections where you think the expression is flat/boring/tasteless?

I think it's fair to be critical in one's approach to music. Perhaps not over critical, but still. Or else we'll all wind up loving everything equally and nothing is 'better' or 'worse' according to one's own taste (I know these two adjectives are highly overused in regards to music, but at least from a personal pov, people should be able to pinpoint something akin to personal preferences).

Regarding DT: I like some of their early stuff, but I'm not ashamed to say that I find Labrie's vocals incredibly margarine-like and more than often irritating.

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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 11:00

^^^ Further, if one doesn't like a piece of music, beyond a point it's not worth banging one's head in vain trying to get to what the artist wanted to convey. Sometimes one may not be able to relate to it and that's ok. There's also no point in pretending that bands do not ever get boring or predictable or repetitive over a period of time. It does happen to lots of bands and has a lot to do with rock's insistence on one 'loyal' lineup of supposedly indispensable artists which can reduce the scope for a fresh source of influence or ideas over time.

Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 12:08

ExittheLemming wrote:

It's no secret I'm not a Dream Theater enthusiast and although I can admire their technical proficiency, I do so with the same lukewarm regard I reserve for the sterile professionalism embodied by my Dentist. However, I've never really bought into the idea that DT provide a portal to the wider compass of Prog for initiates. Apart from the versions of so-called classic Prog tracks on Jordan Rudess solo albums and those covered by DT, I can't see any evidence for anyone sprinting down to a record store to buy all the Genesis, ELP, Yes, Crimson or Gentle Giant that they can afford after hearing a DT album. OK, it might turn a plain vanilla metal-head onto the likes of Rush, Opeth, Tool, Pain of Salvation etc but to my ears, DT is that tattooed chick in the leather pants who works in the library, has a share portfolio but considers gambling abhorrent and deems complete derangement of the senses might be delivered via a double skinny macchiato with croutons.

Actually, that's what I did, and I'm being completely serious too.

Within a couple months of owning all of DT's albums I had gone out and gotten all the Rush, Yes, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Jethro Tull, and ELP albums I could afford, and even a King Crimson album. For me, Dream Theater was a gateway to prog. I doubt I am the only one either.

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Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here .

Posted By: ProgMetaller2112
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 13:19

Mere imitators Wink

-------------
“War is peace.

Freedom is slavery.

Ignorance is strength.”

― George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four

"Ignorance and Prejudice and Fear walk Hand in Hand"- Neil Peart

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 14:10

moshkito wrote:

richardh wrote:

...
All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.

Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.

Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?

Some very bold comments as always. I think I might even have understood a little bit.

I think many are put off DT by the vocals in the same way many can't warm to Opera perhaps.

BTW any views on Liquid Tension Experiment?

Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 14:19

I think they were innovators along with Queensryche and Fates Warning when it comes to Prog-Metal. I do believe all three were influenced by Rush though who should get more credit than these other three, but these three did lay the groundwork/rules or whatever you want to call it for what is known as Prog-Metal.

Those negative reviews someone put up have an element of truth as far as i'm concerned, in that I detest when Dream Theater do the ballad thing, and they do it almost on every album! A huge negative for me but on the other hand man these guys can play and I do like when they light it up.

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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN

Posted By: Aldebaran_Well
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 14:52

I think that they are both.

They have released two masterpieces though.

And they inspired a lot of people to play music so,I thank

them for that.

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Some men are hunting hawks,some men are busy bees,
some louder than a storm,others silent as the trees,
but we're all dressed up as one,noone stands out in the crowd,
We're strangers in this town.

Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 15:18

As far as Progressive metal....they stand like the statue of Ozymandias (before it was eroded by time) an imperious exponent of a genre that I stumbled across in the early noughties (like the traveller from an antique Land)...and read the plaque on the plinth......Here is Dream Theater.....Band of Bands in the prog metal genre...
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!.....

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......

Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 15:43

infandous wrote:

Catcher10 wrote:

Metallica IMO had one prog related song.....One

I'd actually say that is one of the LEAST prog related songs on that album. Just my opinion. And we're supposed to be talking about DT Wink

I should have quoted the last post on page ONE.....I know this is about DT.

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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 15:59

richardh wrote:

moshkito wrote:

richardh wrote:

... All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.

Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.

Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?

Some very bold comments as always. I think I might even have understood a little bit.

I think many are put off DT by the vocals in the same way many can't warm to Opera perhaps.

BTW any views on Liquid Tension Experiment?

I was thinking the same thing reading that post...I kinda get it. There is a lot of music I do not like but can appreciate the composition, structure, playing ability basically the song writing where I can nod my head. A lot of DT is that way for me, like ELP...bombastic but I appreciate what they are doing. I suppose its why I love ToT so much, it is a deviation from the previous album and not a preview of the next. They wanted to do metal with a prog flare and it worked, at least for me.
I can spin ELP-Works I, and think GOD!! What were they thinking!!?? But can appreciate the playing ability enough to understand why, so for that they get some like from me...Its not Tarkus love though

LTE for me is excellent stuff, I almost feel that for me the DT members were at their top form on those two albums. I regularly watch on YT the live shows in LA and NYC, it really looks like they are having a ton of fun!
Now, last two times I saw DT with Portnoy, he was not having fun..I thought he was...but since seeing him after the break on two tours with Neal Morse and the Kaleidoscope tour, I think he is having a lot of fun right now.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 16:43

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

I have learned a lot about DT (and prog music in general) from posts by numerous PA members but the fact that DT were able to motivate someone to move beyond the Prog-metal genre and into bands of the "classic" prog rock era is most impressive. I am not genre or era specific myself. The last two albums I listened to were 1968's prog-folk self titled Pentanlge album and this year's prog-tech/metal Cynic album titled Kindly Bent To Free US. So to see any group inspire someone else to cross the boundary lines is awesome indeed.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 19:13

Dellinger wrote:

Just for the record, I agree that there is nothing prog about Metallica and was surprised to see their name come up so often!! But they do rock!! Headbanger

Just Kidding!

Posted By: Genital Giant
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 20:19

I saw DT open up for Yes on their 35th Anniversary tour. My friend turned to me during DT's set and said "this is the worst music I've ever heard in my life". I said, "I agree".

Total w**kery with no musicality whatsoever.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:13

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

For a band that was formed in the mid-80's they are releasing some mighty good music. Even just looking at the big 6 prog acts of the 70's, how does their output from the 90's compare to Dream Theater's most recent albums? Yes and Pink Floyd had good decades (though PF only had one new studio album). King Crimson had also released some good music, though under different names. Jethro Tull released new music, though as far as I know, it went kinda unnoticed. ELP and Genesis released some notoriously bad albums (the rating speak for them, not me). These dates correspond with where DT is right now in their career, considering they are 20+ years removed from possibly their best album, I would argue that they are still doing very well and releasing some good music. Are they still innovating? That's debatable, and not very likely. But the only thing they are imitating at this point is themselves.

I do feel they have kind of run out of ideas. But you just hit the nail putting their carreers into this perspective. I still think they should slow their pace and put more thought and work... and perhaps a bit of rest into their new albums so they can come with some better work. Also, you might add that this band has been very stable line-up wise for a band that has lasted this long.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:21

rogerthat wrote:

Dellinger wrote:

Actually, I like him better when he sings softly. Even though he may have an astonishing range, for me he is just plain annoying when he goes too high. He lacks the sort of personality of other high pitched singers such as Robert Plant, Jon Anderson, or even Geddy Lee, etc, that I really like.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:24

richardh wrote:

If you haven't liked what they have been up to lately (perhaps I could assume you think they have run out of ideas). I don't think the new album would change your mind. Try listening to "Illumination Theory" on YouTube, if you don't like that one, and you didn't like their previous album either, then you can give up on it. That song is the one that's a bit different, the rest of the album is very similar to the one before.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:38

Mellotron Storm wrote:

I think they were innovators along with Queensryche and Fates Warning when it comes to Prog-Metal. I do believe all three were influenced by Rush though who should get more credit than these other three, but these three did lay the groundwork/rules or whatever you want to call it for what is known as Prog-Metal.

I too dislike most of their ballads, and in a great part they are the reason I wouldn't give 5 stars to many of their albums that I otherwise love. The few ballads from them that I do like were from the Moore era, without him they seem to have lost the talent for writing softer stuff (Space Dye Vest being the best example for me... though that's perhaps a bit harder than a ballad should be).

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:41

richardh wrote:

moshkito wrote:

richardh wrote:

... All bands have a shelf life and DT have probably exceeded theirs. That said I haven't yet heard the recent eponymously titled album that has got a fair amount of praise.

Strange ... their last album sold just as well as almost any of their albums.

Did you do that when you first heard Debussy? Stravinsky? Mozart? ... why are we doing it to rock or jazz music?

Some very bold comments as always. I think I might even have understood a little bit.

I think many are put off DT by the vocals in the same way many can't warm to Opera perhaps.

BTW any views on Liquid Tension Experiment?

Dream Theater without LaBrie? I just got to love LTE. Now, really, they have many songs that I really love. The one thing I'm not so fond of is their over-use of improvs, and perhaps also that their albums were a bit rushed. Perhaps now that Portnoy is out of DT they could have a good excuse to reform LTE and do some new album... that would be really wonderful.

Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 22:56

richardh wrote:

........BTW any views on Liquid Tension Experiment?

I like LTE...but don't own a single DT album...... go figure.

I'm sure DT have influenced some , as a poster mentioned, to buy other classic prog and that's a good thing since imo those bands are more interesting than DT.

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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin

Posted By: Mirror Image
Date Posted: June 10 2014 at 23:30

Can't say I've never been a big fan of Dream Theater, but I did like Images and Words. I thought that was a very good album that wasn't so 'in your face' and actually had some beautiful moments like Another Day for example.

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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov

Posted By: RoeDent
Date Posted: June 11 2014 at 02:44

Prog innovators. They kick-started the whole modern prog movement. I know Marillion bravely carried the flag through the Dark Ages, but DT brought about the new Golden Age, a more fruitful era of prog that continues to this day and beyond.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 11 2014 at 08:44

Mirror Image wrote:

Can't say I've never been a big fan of Dream Theater, but I did like Images and Words. I thought that was a very good album that wasn't so 'in your face' and actually had some beautiful moments like Another Day for example.

I agree that is one of their great songs. 1st album with singer LaBrie, so first for the classic line up some would say. Strange how so many bands have a debut album (in some form) that leaves an impression on someone that is never repeated, for whatever reason.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 11 2014 at 09:40

RoeDent wrote:

Prog innovators. They kick-started the whole modern prog movement. I know Marillion bravely carried the flag through the Dark Ages, but DT brought about the new Golden Age, a more fruitful era of prog that continues to this day and beyond.

I've read similiar posts to this effect and agree that they innovated a sub genre but I still do not see what that has to do with being musically innovative and perhaps that paradox is reason enough to close this thread.

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 00:58

Does anyone actually understand what 'musical Innovation' is? If so please explain it to me.

Generally i just enjoy music (or not) as the case may be. DT made some good albums and put a different slant on heavy metal and perhaps even helped move prog towards something a bit heavier in style. I suspect though that 'complexity' and 'innovation' get completely confused in most people's minds. Complexity is a lot easier to nail down.

Posted By: Metalmarsh89
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 11:18

richardh wrote:

Does anyone actually understand what 'musical Innovation' is? If so please explain it to me.

I'll answer your question with a question. When Images and Words was released, was there another album or band that sounded anything like what Dream Theater did on that album? Sure you can tell where some of the influences came from, but would you consider an album unique in its own right?

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Want to play mafia? Visit http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com" rel="nofollow - here .

Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 11:25

I am with you on this one....I first heard scenes from a memory and was blown away by the virtuosity and the drumming....then I got six degrees about solstice 04 - and was totally blown away - I loved it first spin!
I don't think they deliberately mimic anybody - but some stuff is Rush/Floyd/Genesis/Yes and I even hear the Enid in the start of six degrees......and what about Rik Mayall - there I am bemoaning his contribution to the slating of progressive rock and sort of giving him the PA evil eye and he goes and snuffs it (tragically for his family obviously) by some unknown cause - The curse of the scorned prog fan strikes again....

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Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 11:37

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

richardh wrote:

Does anyone actually understand what 'musical Innovation' is? If so please explain it to me.

Absolutely, there's no doubt that there was no band like DT at that time when they made those early albums. Images & Words was as influential for the development of prog metal as ITCOTCK for that of prog rock.

Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 12:38

rogerthat wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

richardh wrote:

Does anyone actually understand what 'musical Innovation' is? If so please explain it to me.

Well, personally, I thought it sounded like a number of bands and I didn't find it particularly original or different at the time it came out. However, I was discounting the conglomeration of influences...........all the elements had been done before, but they had never been combined in quite the same way before. So technically, I hadn't heard anything like it before........but I had heard every element of their sound and style before, just not combined in exactly that way.

But then, that is how musical innovation happens............it is extremely rare for any musician to suddenly come up with something that has never been heard before and has no trace of influences (actually, that might be impossible). So in retrospect, I'd have to say I agree with you and there is no denying the impact they have had on metal and prog since then.

Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 13:56

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

richardh wrote:

Does anyone actually understand what 'musical Innovation' is? If so please explain it to me.

I tend to think that true innovation in music is extremely rare.If DT were being innovative then I would imagine so were Iron Maiden. If fact any eighties metal band that made tracks over 6 minutes long were presumably being 'innovative' . Pardon me for being sceptical.

However I don't even care . Its either good to listen to or not. I can't stand the electronic snare on I&W. If thats innovation I would rather not have it Wink

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 14:12

infandous wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

Metalmarsh89 wrote:

richardh wrote:

Does anyone actually understand what 'musical Innovation' is? If so please explain it to me.

Well, personally, I thought it sounded like a number of bands and I didn't find it particularly original or different at the time it came out. However, I was discounting the conglomeration of influences...........all the elements had been done before, but they had never been combined in quite the same way before. So technically, I hadn't heard anything like it before........but I had heard every element of their sound and style before, just not combined in exactly that way. But then, that is how musical innovation happens............it is extremely rare for any musician to suddenly come up with something that has never been heard before and has no trace of influences (actually, that might be impossible). So in retrospect, I'd have to say I agree with you and there is no denying the impact they have had on metal and prog since then.

All of the past posts were so well thought out and extremely insightful that it would be foolish of me not consider them. Perhaps because I'm probably a bit(ahem)older then you all , DT's influences seem to hit me first before the actual musical composition does. That said, I do remember the first time I heard Schizoid Man by KC and, having no clue about jazz music, I thought they had invented a completely new musical form!

So I would have to graciously agree with you all that any innovative musical form cannot be devoid of influences.

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 19:21

SteveG wrote:

All of the past posts were so well thought out and extremely insightful that it would be foolish of me not consider them. Perhaps because I'm probably a bit(ahem)older then you all , DT's influences seem to hit me first before the actual musical composition does. That said, I do remember the first time I heard Schizoid Man by KC and, having no clue about jazz music, I thought they had invented a completely new musical form!

So I would have to graciously agree with you all that any innovative musical form cannot be devoid of influences.

For what it's worth, I do think they didn't quite disguise their influences as well as say KC. As you said, the influences seem to be rather evident, even on the surface. The main verse of Surrounded is so Rush-like, for instance. What makes them unique circa 1991 is that for whatever reason, no other metal band had gone quite so far in combining prog rock elements with metal. And as I said in my first comment on this topic, that is actually how a lot of metal's growth in the 90s has happened. A lot of symphonic metal starting with the first Nightwish album sounds so cliched...and yet, that particular amalgam of genres hadn't been done before. It reflects metal's relative youth as a genre at that time, its boundaries were still being expanded. That space has obviously shrunk over the years.

Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 21:26

rogerthat wrote:

So I would have to graciously agree with you all that any innovative musical form cannot be devoid of influences.

If I understand you well, you are saying that Metal was very young in the 90's... between 90 and 95, when DT released Images & Words, and the Symphonic Metal bands began to emerge... however, let's consider that full blown metal started in the 80's (I guess even since 1980 itself), it means that Metal had been around for at least 10 years... perhaps even up to 15 years. In less than 10 years, prog emerged, had it's most popular years, and almost disapeared.

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: June 12 2014 at 22:13

They are not really comparable as metal essentially heavy music, so it's wider than prog rock of the 70s (otherwise prog of some sort has survived). Metal also has a very strong underground network which allows not so commercially viable music to thrive. However it may be, in the 90s lot of development was still happening in metal, but it has kind of matured now. Metal also kept the youth hooked, in large numbers, for a long time, whereas punk and new wave brought the growth of prog to a halt.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: June 13 2014 at 09:54

Dellinger wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

So I would have to graciously agree with you all that any innovative musical form cannot be devoid of influences.

I was gearing up for a good discussion with you guys last night but I got side tracked. I know that Infandous has stated that DT bridged the gap between metal and prog but in my experinece with fans of Metal core, death metal and other extreme hardcore genres, they are only happy to cross over to bands like DT or Fates Warning and display little love for older prog bands with perhaps the possibility of Rush. Even the post-rock metal of Porcupine Tree leaves them cold. As far as DT influencing metal bands or metal bands influencing new prog acts, I feel there's a back and forth that has gone on there regarding double bass drumming, down tuned 7 string guitar riffing and the like. Portnoy himself has jumped backed and forth from DT to metal bands like Avenged Sevenfold, so cross infuencing is not uncommon. IMO, the biggest thing that keeps DT from creating a distinctive sound is, paradoxically, the metal riffing sound that defines their genre. To get metal fans to like their progish endeavors, DT has to riff, thrash and shred at most times to project that characteristic "metal band" sound that is common with thousands of other metal acts. That similarity is every metal band's blessing and curse. To me, DT's sound is a back and forth between metal characteristics and those of prog that never meld resulting in, for me, nothing more than the playing of revolving musical genres and sytles. I don't want to close my post without saying what stellar musicians that I think DT are, but they know there audience and play to it. When someone stated that DT "must be doing something right". I believe that "something" is exactly what I have just stated. To get back to my original question "Are DT innovators or imitators?", after considering all of the posts, I conclude that DT are indeed innovators, however, with the caveats I noted, I can only consider them innovators in the narrowest sense of the word. A safe and fun weekend to all!

Posted By: coffeeintheface
Date Posted: July 10 2014 at 02:10

Dream Theater has always worn their influences on their sleeves but they always, for the most part, always made it unique enough for them to have their own unique sound

Mike Portnoy is kind of like the musical Quentin Tarantino too, insofar as they both are historians of their craft and judiciously sample works they're fans of. When DT borrowed sounds from other bands (ex// Constant Motion borrowing from Metallica), they could do it because they're Dream Theater. Just like Tarantino can "sample" other movies in his work.

Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: July 10 2014 at 06:20

I have lost a lot of the appreciation I once had for DT but I have to be honest, when I first heard Images And Words soon after its release (their first album slipped under my radar) it made a big impression on me, it was like Rush on steroids with much denser prog-oriented keyboards and an easier voice timbre. Unlike possibly other listeners I did not cling so much to the first side Pull Me Under, Another Day, Surrounded, etc but I was blown away by the 2nd half of the album, Metropolis, Under A Glass Moon, Wait For Sleep and Learning To Live. I could not believe what I was hearing.

Sure they had obvious influences but that album was undoubtedly innovative (perhaps I could even say "revolutionary") and a landmark for much more music to come in mater years, my feeling about it is very similar to the first time I ever listened to Rush, which was the A Farewell To Kings album.

Too bad after Six Degrees they seemed to start losing their mojo...

Posted By: musitron
Date Posted: July 10 2014 at 10:18

Imitators. They are so much overated by the newbies in prog.

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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: July 10 2014 at 11:16

Funny...I don't see anyone posting in the "What are you lisenting to..." thread DT albums, does anyone listen to them anymore?

I am a fan, used to be bigger fan, but last two albums left me numb. And I do miss Portnoy, he added many facets to the group, good or bad...usually good IMO.

Crying over spilt milk...but they should have taken a hiatus.

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Posted By: uvtraveler
Date Posted: July 10 2014 at 13:51

I don't see how one could look at Dream Theater as "innovators" if that's the topic. I haven't checked out much of their latest work, but as far as their first 5-10 recordings, they are basically a bunch of great musicians...but not really songwriters per se. Some of musical breaks feature incredible drum work, guitar work or whatever. The songs themselves hold together ok for the most part, but they just don't seem to break new ground. Having said that, I don't feel they imitate any one or two particular artists. They seem to have incorporated a lot of stuff, and the sound can be labeled original yet not innovative. There is a big difference.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 10 2014 at 14:26

All this IMO

I'm with you on this Jose as Portnoy is stellar with the Winery Dogs and Transatlantic, but Dream Theatre left me lukewarm after I ate up both the Six Degrees and Train Of Thought albums. Maybe Mike had an intuition that it was time for him to move on.

Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: July 10 2014 at 14:36

uvtraveler wrote:

I haven't checked out much of their latest work, but as far as their first 5-10 recordings, they are basically a bunch of great musicians...but not really songwriters per se.

I think this is a fair assessment. IMO, their best songs are found on When Dream and Day Unite through Falling. When Jordan came onboard, it completed the gradual shift to more of a showcase band.

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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 10 2014 at 21:40

Catcher10 wrote:

Funny...I don't see anyone posting in the "What are you lisenting to..." thread DT albums, does anyone listen to them anymore?

I am a fan, used to be bigger fan, but last two albums left me numb. And I do miss Portnoy, he added many facets to the group, good or bad...usually good IMO.

Crying over spilt milk...but they should have taken a hiatus.

I too think they should have taken that hiatus. When Portnoy mentioned back then I thought it was a good idea... even though 5 years seemed exagerated.

Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 11 2014 at 15:29

Innovation - That would be the word that you can use when you come across a style of music that you haven't heard before....However You'll always find somebody on here who will trump you by informing you that they had a great grandad who witnessed a tribe of native pygmies by the Limpopo river in darkest Africa - performing prog metal to Dr Livingstone - circa 1878......

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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: July 11 2014 at 16:04

uvtraveler wrote:

I don't see how one could look at Dream Theater as "innovators" if that's the topic. I haven't checked out much of their latest work, but as far as their first 5-10 recordings, they are basically a bunch of great musicians...but not really songwriters per se. Some of musical breaks feature incredible drum work, guitar work or whatever. The songs themselves hold together ok for the most part, but they just don't seem to break new ground. Having said that, I don't feel they imitate any one or two particular artists. They seem to have incorporated a lot of stuff, and the sound can be labeled original yet not innovative. There is a big difference.

I'm not such a DT lover anymore but I have to disagree here, I think they were truly innovative. Of course they were not a complete revolution, they played traditional rock instruments and sounds, but Prog-Metal was highly nursed by them, and being the early nurses of a whole music genre is not something any band can claim having been.

Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: July 11 2014 at 17:25

The most innovative of artists across the history of music have all been imitators to some degree. Dream Theater, I'd say, are both.

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Posted By: k3no444
Date Posted: July 11 2014 at 23:40

I don't fully think they are imitators, but I agree with The Pessimist.

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Posted By: brainstormer
Date Posted: July 12 2014 at 15:34

For me, it comes down to what are they saying in their lyrics. If Dream Theater

music as is on all their albums remained the same, but for the lyrics they

did the complete English Romantic Poets' canon, I'd be into them. I would

love to hear a couple of lp's of Wordsworth poetry done in a rock setting.

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Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: July 12 2014 at 19:58

in terms of style, imitator. They mostly sound like Iron Maiden, Fates Warning, Yngwie Malmsteen, Iced Earth (the heavier songs) and 80s AOR bands.

in terms of quality, innovator. They recorded songs that are much better and more enjoyable than those they sound like.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2014 at 13:50

paganinio wrote:

in terms of style, imitator. They mostly sound like Iron Maiden, Fates
Warning, Yngwie Malmsteen, Iced Earth (the heavier songs) and 80s AOR
bands.in terms of quality, innovator. They recorded songs that are much better and more enjoyable than those they sound like.

Does quality equate with innovation?

Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: July 15 2014 at 15:46

SteveG wrote:

Does quality equate with innovation?

Are you thinking of another thread? That might be a good one.

Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 15 2014 at 15:57

^Ah... maybe next month. I'm a bit tired.

Posted By: CityZen
Date Posted: September 10 2014 at 00:00

Never understood them

Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 01:05

I enjoy their music and don't much care if it's innovative or not.

After all, a lot of bands still making traditional progressive rock are no longer innovative, not in this day and age. Accusations of being stale can't be limited to just DT.

DT absolutely were influential to me , personally , in discovering prog rock. They were a gateway for me. I went out and got into KC, Genesis, Yes, etc.

I never understood why so many hate DT. They seem to be too metal for the progheads, and too prog for the metal heads

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Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: October 26 2014 at 23:45

Hi, I'm new here.

I used to be a big dream theater fan a while back, But their music has just grown stale to me. their music from the 90's had a lot of noodling and their ballads were kind of boring. There 2000s material is just a bunch generic metal cliches stacked on top of generic prog cliches. I don't think I would call them innovative, but their older material has a unique sound and they wrote some good melodies but I don't think their songs were all that well written. It gets annoying to hear them be technical throughout large portions of songs, especially with portnoy's drumming. Sometimes I just want the dude to play simple rhythm.

Posted By: twalsh
Date Posted: October 27 2014 at 15:07

DT, along with Queensryche, was my gateway to prog metal. Unfortunately, I did not have the wherewithal (or social contacts) to find more music int eh prog metal vein. I have their entire catalogue and generally love their music. However, the high points since Train of Thought (I knew metal before prog and I love this album, especially This Dying Soul) have been far less frequent. Like some others have noted, their softer side kind of sucks for me (The Answer Lies Within). Other artists can do this with more passion and intensity. Even when heavy, their sounds can seem dry and cerebral.

I think they were an innovative band when they first emerged (I never saw their particular strengths come together quite that way before with another band), but settled too much into a comfortable groove in the last decade. I know there are many exceptions, but metalheads can be quite conservative and may be DT's primary fan base.

Without DT, I would be stuck with hard rock and heavy indie rock, - not a terrible thing but not quite so satisfying.

DT is a great band and have found a style that works for them,

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More heavy prog, please!

Posted By: Friday13th
Date Posted: October 31 2014 at 09:42

Wow, didn't know people were so lukewarm about DT these days. DT was one of my gateway bands (it went Metallica>>DT>>Rush>>the rest). I agree that they weren't really innovators in the strict sense since no one facet of their sound is unique. But compared to their closest influence, namely Fates Warning, their delivery and songwriting were so much more fluid and accessible. Where I disagree completely is where people say they have bad songwriting and pointless soloing. It all depends on your expectations and built tolerance leve for the style. For highly-technical prog metal at that time, they were basically tasteful songwriting gods. Compared to Fates Warning or Watchtower or any early, highly-technical prog metal band, DT's melodic verse/chorus songwriting was a breath of fresh air. Sure, I&W still has a very '80s feel to it, which I forget is a rather hated decade for many proggers. Awake sounds much different than that, and I think initially they were rather proggy in the "not stagnating" sense. They were definitely original and influential.

Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 31 2014 at 10:48

I am a big DT fan, I love all phases of their music and think they are all excellent musicians. Calling them "lukewarm" is very appropriate these days.

The last two albums and especially DT12 is forgettable, when you consider their whole catalog. Maybe there was too much hype from the band about DT12, as a fan I was expecting more...but not sure what really.

I have no problem stating that Portnoy leaving left a huge hole in their sound, production and feel. Considering the last two albums, had they agreed to take a break I don't think we as fans would have missed anything. It would be very easy for me to play their whole catalog and then stop after BC&SL....

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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: October 31 2014 at 11:05

Couldn't agree more. In hindsight, it looks like at least Portnoy was prodding them to explore and extend themselves. There seems to be some inertia right now. It was a bit understandable in the transition album Dramatic Turn of Events but by the s/t, they should have found themselves again. At least an album like Train of Thought had them adapting to emerging trends in metal. Their recent material exudes a very 90s feeling, as if they are still stuck in that era.

Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: October 31 2014 at 11:37

I appreciate what Portnoy has done these past several yrs, especially with NM and his music theme, religion that is. Portnoy is jewish but still jumped in with both feet to play along side of Morse and help deliver his message....There is nothing lacking from Portnoy's efforts on NM and Transatlantic albums, you can see/hear he wants to be there.

Not since probably Octavarium have I seen Portnoy play with such passion as I have seen him play with NM of the past several yrs.

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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: October 31 2014 at 14:40

^I agree with all of the above posts regarding Portnoy's influence on DT. I , probably along with others, didn't realize his impact on DT until after he left and I actually enjoy the earlier DT albums featuring Portnoy that I was only lukewarm about like Awake. Live and learn. The last two DT albums sound like they were slumming to me.

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Posted By: TradeMark0
Date Posted: November 02 2014 at 02:28

After re listening to images and words, I don't think dream theater were very innovative but what prog metal bands were. Watchtower had some complex thrash riffs but nothing more, queensryche was basically just glam metal, Fates warning was a sloppy combination of the 2, and dream theater just polished it and added in some noodling for the sake of technicality. Prog rock in the 70s broke away from conventional song structure and did new things with rock music. The funny thing is that prog rock influenced glam rock, but for prog metal it's the other way around.

Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: November 02 2014 at 10:42

SteveG wrote:

Dream Theater: Innovators or imitators? When I think of Prog rock I think of bands on a quest to constantly break conventions and move music forward. As much as I enjoy some of the output from Dream Theater, I see them (like some other later day prog artists) as bands that wear their influences so proudly on their sleeves that they produce music that can only move sideways. So are Dream Theater innovators or merely imatators?

If we all look at this band as a rock'n'roll band, who gives a sh*t?

If we all look at this band as some progressive this and that, the definition won't like this band, because they only like one album and did not give the others a proper listen as many times as they have the other album!

If all we look at is the fact that this is an "artist", which happens to have 5 folks in it, and look at the massive catalogue, I would say they are innovators, though that might be considered the wrong word, for their total amount of work.

DREAM THEATER deserves a bit more credit for their work than the fan'dom crap they put up with in here after 30 years!!!

A musician does not live 30 years to kiss you hiney! Any musician lives for their music, and if you don't like it ... go buy something else. Or as one BASS PLAYER in the magazine said ... I'm not a cow ... go milk someone else!

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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: November 02 2014 at 11:38

moshkito wrote:

SteveG wrote:

When I think of Prog rock I think of bands on a quest to constantly break conventions and move music forward.

If we all look at this band as a rock'n'roll band, who gives a sh*t?

DREAM THEATER deserves a bit more credit for their work than the fan'dom crap they put up with in here after 30 years!!!

^ haha. good rant.

I think Steve you might be confusin prog rock and its parent, progressive rock. Prog is not that, it is a highly definied genre which has spent the last 40 years honoring the 70's originals and not progressing one damn bit. There are many groups that follow that very notion in their music as you say, and are vehemhiely called NON prog. They themselves deny the tag understanding just that, prog is stale dead musical tag only kept on life support by imitation bands.

Now there is a very vibrant progressive rock scene that doesn't try to sound like 'insert 70's' and does their own thing and mixes influences as they see them and creates their own unique (as much as possible I suppose) sounds. One that many, correctly deny is prog, some are innovators and doing their own thing and have no idea that they have even been lumped in the dead stale prog rock scene by the scene itself. More power to them, I agree with the thoughts of some musicians, to be labelled or marketed as prog is a kind of death wish for any band wanting to expand it's audience and appeal. Just play the music and let people call it what they want.

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