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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 04:20
I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath"   -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 05:20
The Who were heavier and louder at stage than many of 70s 'officially' heavy metal (hard rock) acts.





In above video John Entwistle play bass guitar in the way that was ahead of his time.


Edited by Svetonio - July 26 2014 at 06:49
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 06:03
^ the Berlin Philharmonic playing Wagner on stage were probably louder and heavier so what's your point?

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath"   -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
I sorta agree with that because of the association to Rock'n'Roll based Rock in those bands - I notice he didn't mention Led Zeppelin who were more Blues-based even though they ventured into other genres they didn't begin as a Progressive Rock band.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 06:18
Another fly in the ointment was the appearance of The Heavy Metal Kids on the Glam/Heavy Rock scene around 1972-74. Most certainly not a Heavy Metal band they took their name from William S. Burrough's Nova Trillogy:

"Citizens of Gravity we are converting all out to Heavy Metal. Carbonic Plague of the Vegetable
People threatens our Heavy Metal State. Report to your nearest Plating Station. It's fun to be
plated," says this well-known radio and TV personality who is now engraved forever in gags of
metal." ~ William S. Burroughs - The Soft Machine (1962) 

Burroughs is of course referring to narcotics derived from toxic (heavy) metal elements and it wouldn't surprise me a great deal if most of the other uses of the phrase in the music scene picked it up from Burroughs. Hapshash and the Coloured Coat (who are only really remembered now for their iconic Hendrix, Soft Machine and Pink Floyd posters) used it along with another Burroughs phrase "The Human Host" as the title of their 1967 début album "Hapshash and the Coloured Coat Featuring The Human Host And The Heavy Metal Kids"

But again, I don't think any of that means a great deal in the scheme of things other than demonstrating that the phrase was in common use before it was used to describe the music genre. 
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 06:20
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath"   -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
I believe so. Well, I was too young to be a fan in early 70s when e.g. Uriah Heep were considered as a progressive rock band; I remember them as a melodic hard rock band.
However, in the second half of the golden decade, I remember that New Hard Rock Champions undoubtely were AC/DC  - the band which I used to hate with a passion.


Edited by Svetonio - July 24 2014 at 06:56
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 07:15
Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath"   -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
I believe so. Well, I was too young to be a fan in early 70s when e.g. Uriah Heep were considered as a progressive rock band; I remember them as a melodic hard rock band.
However, in the second half of the golden decade, I remember that New Hard Rock Champions undoubtely were AC/DC  - the band which I used to hate with a passion.
From what I remember of the 70s, both Sabbath and Heep were the objects of much derision in the music press at the time.
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 13:01
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath"   -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
I believe so. Well, I was too young to be a fan in early 70s when e.g. Uriah Heep were considered as a progressive rock band; I remember them as a melodic hard rock band.
However, in the second half of the golden decade, I remember that New Hard Rock Champions undoubtely were AC/DC  - the band which I used to hate with a passion.
From what I remember of the 70s, both Sabbath and Heep were the objects of much derision in the music press at the time.
What was the press loved among the crowd of Heavy Rock bands back then? Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple. But, Black Sabbath and Uriah Heep have long been rehabilitated. Like the French Impressionists, lol.


Edited by Svetonio - July 24 2014 at 13:02
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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 13:57
Well, in Denmark those professional critics who defended progressive rock weren't the same who defended early heavy metal either. Again I don't know that much how it was elsewhere. Didn't Lester Bangs champion both in the US though?
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Points: 7272 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 15:37
I seemed to be one of the few fans in my circle of friends who enjoyed early metal acts (esp. Black Sabbath) as well as 70's prog.  Most of my friends turned their noses up at the metal acts for some reason.  

However, I didn't find it to be anything written in stone or anything.  Some bands like Captain Beyond did a fine job of walking the line between metal and prog.  




Edited by cstack3 - July 24 2014 at 15:37
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Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 15:47
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Anyway, as interesting as this is it's all distracting from the OP.
As someone who was an avid music fan in the 70s and a follower of both Progressive Rock and Heavy Rock as I said I don't recall there being any particular bias in the British rock press (or among artists) in favour of Prog and against Heavy Rock. Sure there was a degree of delineation in fan-base between the two but it wasn't that prevalent compared to the negativity towards other more commercial or mainstream genres. If there was a split it would be between Blues-based rock and Rock'n'Roll based rock and not in how complex or erudite the music was, though even then there would be exceptions like Groundhogs, SAHB and Budgie. Both Progressive Rock and Heavy Metal tend to drop on the Rock'n'Roll side of that divide - there ain't a lot of Blues in either of them. 
<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">From what I remember (and from the contents of my own record collection) we were more eclectic than the stereotype image of the long-haired denim clad 70s youth would suggest. </span>Back then the Underground and "serious" music scene were so broad and varied that most music fans would be receptive to a wide range of musical styles - the explosion in music and styles of music that occurred in that era was unparalleled - if you look at the line-up of the 1973 Reading Festival the diversity of music presented is staggering:
(£4.40 admission... it's a 100 times that now - thankfully the cost of buying albums hasn't gone up by that much)
Of course by <span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">the (very) late 70s that had all changed, and I don't doubt the animosity between music fans was as bad as Doug described it - the declining Prog fans were on the defensive by then and the upstart Metal heads were of the younger post-punk generation who thought a mullet looked cool. LOL</span>

Just wanted to comment on something. I think early on that the British heavy rock groups were blues based such as Led Zep and Sabbath and that even though the blues influence in the 'metal' genre gradually wore off by time Judas Priest came around there may have still been a divide between the prog and metal fans due to a musical influence that was completely abandoned.

Edited by SteveG - July 24 2014 at 15:50
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Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 17:18
I can't say much, I was very young then (born in '66) and living in a musically retarded country (Spain), but from that perspective I would say that there was no rivalry whatsoever, but the situation was not reciprocal, Prog fans in general tended to enjoy Heavy-Rock and early Metal, me and my mates were mostly Proggers but we loved heavy and metal as well, while many if not most Metal fans did not get what Prog was about and despised it.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 18:38
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 Just wanted to comment on something. I think early on that the British heavy rock groups were blues based such as Led Zep and Sabbath and that even though the blues influence in the 'metal' genre gradually wore off by time Judas Priest came around there may have still been a divide between the prog and metal fans due to a musical influence that was completely abandoned.
Blues Rock certainly came first, growing out of the British R&B explosion of the mid 60s and many bands and musicians had Blues roots early in their careers. With only a few exceptions Psychedelic rock was where that blues influence was shaken off in favour or a more rock'n'roll form of rock music. British Progressive and Heavy Rock came out of Psych and not directly from R&B. The Animals psych records retained that R&B influence but they are probably the least British-sounding of all the Brit Psych bands, it's the Psych Pop bands like The Move whose non-blues form of rock would get heavier as the 70s dawned before branching off as ELO. 

Of course there will always be exceptions and this is never an exact science. Black Sabbath, Jethro Tull and Judas Priest all began as Blues Rock in the latter half of the 60s (and all came from the English Midlands). But the majority of British blues-based heavy rock bands such Free, Bad Company, Cream, Humble Pie and Stray have never been associated with Progressive Rock or Heavy Metal.

[Then at the other extreme you've got Status Quo who quickly morphed from a being a very British Psych band into the most unprogressive and least experimental Heavy Rock band of all time. If ever was a band that was simultaneously condemned and condoned by the music press and the record buying public it would be Quo.]

Nascent music genres are not usually started by established bands, they either grow steadily from the grass-roots over a period of time "off-radar" and the suddenly becomes popular in a fully-formed state or they are triggered by a single notable event or newly emergent band with a drastically different take on the existing music scene and other bands run to keep up with them. The difficulty there is the paucity of recorded evidence of any of that underground activity, unlike today where anyone can record themselves and throw it out into the internet for all to hear or ignore, back then if you were not signed you didn't make records (Priest's début album was released five years after their formation and so we have no physical evidence of their blues-rock origins - similarly Maiden's debut was also released five years after their formation ).

The problem that people have in trying to identify the roots of heavy metal is there isn't an unbroken row of dots that we can draw neatly connected lines between - we can produce dots for when and where the name was used, dots for bands that were loud and heavy, dots for riff-based power chords, dots for screaming vocalists, dots for various bands that inspired later generations and dots for those one-off songs that sound like they could be proto-metal but the dots don't connect. This is why I can't see Sabbath, Purple or Zeppelin being called Metal as retrospective tag, this is why AC/DC don't even have a dot on the diagram.

I've posted an old TV programme from 1979 in the Documentary Thread by a then youthful Danny Baker that discusses the new Heavy Metal music that was emerging in London at the time. For those with 24 minutes to waste watching a B&W video will see that in 1979 the term Heavy Metal as applied to a genre of music was new and originated as "The New Wave Of British Heavy Metal" without there being an Old Wave of British Heavy Metal to precede it. Not even the fans were sure whether to call it Heavy Metal, Heavy Rock or Hard Rock and Danny Baker merrily interchanges the three terms throughout his narration. For those who don't have 24 minutes to spare fast forward to 6:38 and listen to DJ Neal Kay of the Bandwagon Soundhouse try and explain the origin of the term (badly I might add).



Edited by Dean - July 24 2014 at 19:46
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Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 18:51
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

 Just wanted to comment on something. I think early on that the British heavy rock groups were blues based such as Led Zep and Sabbath and that even though the blues influence in the 'metal' genre gradually wore off by time Judas Priest came around there may have still been a divide between the prog and metal fans due to a musical influence that was completely abandoned.
Blues Rock certainly came first, growing out of the British R&B explosion of the mid 60s and many bands and musicians had Blues roots early in their careers. With only a few exceptions Psychedelic rock was where that blues influence was shaken off in favour or a more rock'n'roll form of rock music. British Progressive and Heavy Rock came out of Psych and not directly from R&B. The Animals psych records retained that R&B influence but they are probably the least British-sounding of all the Brit Psych bands, it's the Psych Pop bands like The Move whose non-blues form of rock would get heavier as the 70s dawned before branching off as ELO. 

Of course there will always be exceptions and this is never an exact science. Black Sabbath, Jethro Tull and Judas Priest all began as Blues Rock in the latter half of the 60s (and all came from the English Midlands). But the majority of British blues-based heavy rock bands such Free, Bad Company, Cream, Humble Pie and Stray have never been associated with Progressive Rock or Heavy Metal.

[Then at the other extreme you've got Status Quo who quickly morphed from a being a very British Psych band into the most unprogressive and least experimental Heavy Rock band of all time. If ever was a band that was simultaneously condemned and condoned by the music press and the record buying public it would be Quo.]

Nascent music genres are not usually started by established bands, they either grow steadily from the grass-roots over a period of time "off-radar" and the suddenly becomes popular in a fully-formed state or they are triggered by a single notable event or newly emergent band with a drastically different take on the existing music scene and other bands run to keep up with them. The difficulty there is the paucity of recorded evidence of any of that underground activity, unlike today where anyone can record themselves and throw it out into the internet for all to hear or ignore, back then if you were not signed you didn't make records (Priest's début album was released five years after their formation and so we have no physical evidence of their blues-rock origins - similarly Maiden's debut was also released five years after their formation ).

The problem that people have in trying to identify the roots of heavy metal is their isn't an unbroken row of dots that we can draw neatly connected lines between - we can produce dots for when and where the name was used, dots for bands that were loud and heavy, dots for riff-based power chords, dots for screaming vocalists, dots for various bands that inspired later generations and dots for those one-off songs that sound like they could be proto-metal but the dots don't connect. This is why I can't see Sabbath, Purple or Zeppelin being called Metal as retrospective tag, this is why AC/DC don't even have a dot on the diagram.

I've posted an old TV programme from 1979 in the Documentary Thread by a then youthful Danny Baker that discusses the new Heavy Metal music that was emerging in London at the time. For those with 24 minutes to waste watching a B&W video will see that in 1979 the term Heavy Metal as applied to a genre of music was new and originated as "The New Wave Of British Heavy Metal" without there being an Old Wave of British Heavy Metal to precede it. Not even the fans were sure whether to call it Heavy Metal, Heavy Rock or Hard Rock and Danny Baker merrily interchanges the three terms throughout his narration. For those who don't have 24 minutes to spare fast forward to 6:38 and listen to DJ Neal Kay of the Bandwagon Soundhouse try and explain the origin of the term (badly I might add).

I should have said that many of the early British hard rock/heavy rock/metal acts were blues based, but as you stated, groups like The Animals clearly were not but I will check out the documentary thread. Thanks.
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Points: 20609 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:15
^Good doc Dean. Even if it seems to make things a bit more confusing. I'm still sticking to my take that the metal tag was resisted in England in the early to mid Seventies. I recall that it did become more used toward the end of the seventies but by that time it was an afterthought after punk rock kicked in, and I recall that Brtitish music magazines like NME and Sounds ate it up (punk rock), much to my dismay. LOL


Edited by SteveG - July 24 2014 at 19:18
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Points: 239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:54
The older I get,the more recording projects I play on,and gigs I do...As an American Los Angeles native Californian lifelong guitarist,I am truly amazed and see how blessed I was to have joined a well-known Swiss progressive rock band called Flame Dream;that was signed to Vertigo Records.
There was no internet in 1979,and I was extremely bold and lucky to meet Peter Gabriel when I was 19 in Bath Spa England.All of it became together since that meeting.
I moved to Lucerne Switzerland and became soon friends with bands like Switzerland's Krokus,and OM.
No major record label would ever even think of signing a Swiss progressive rock band now...



Blessings everyone from record heat on this mega hot summer's day in Southern California !
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2014 at 23:31
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Well, in Denmark those professional critics who defended progressive rock weren't the same who defended early heavy metal either. Again I don't know that much how it was elsewhere. Didn't Lester Bangs champion both in the US though?


That general "paperclip" of press and fans, musicians, the worshipers of heavy rock and progressive rock, actually was Jimi Hendrix, of whom Heavy Rock was born in May 12, 1967. That newborn genre was "baptised" at the Jimi Hendrix concert at Monterey Pop Festival, in June 1967; after that the sound of the electric guitar was no longer the same. Hendrix' revolution has inspired an entire generation of young guitarists to move to experiment with their guitars - which has led that new born heavy rock to all of its styles and sub-genres, but also the proto-prog and prog (even Genesis were recoderd heavy track The Knife). So in the period from late 60s to early 70s the fans and the rock critics was undivided regarding that heavy rock / progressive rock.




An iconic picture of Jimi Hendrix at Monterey Pop Festival, June 1967
The picture was taken by Ed Caraeff, 17-year old boy who was in the front row.
Ed Caraeff never seen Hendrix before nor head his music.









Jimi Hendrix's Purple Haze, Foxy Lady and Wild Thing live performed at Monterey Pop Festival, June 1967.
 




EDIT:  a stunning heavy perfomance of Voodo Child in Stockholm, 1969. 



Edited by Svetonio - July 25 2014 at 03:18
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2014 at 02:46
Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.


Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").

Edited by Svetonio - July 25 2014 at 03:17
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Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:



Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.


Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").

Did the article go on to say how Led Zeppelin and Ritchie Blackmore from Purple loathed the term 'heavy metal' as they felt it put them in a musical box that they were not willing to be shoved into at the time? I doubt it, but that's how even contemporary history is written at times, if Hitler is anything to go by.


Edited by SteveG - July 25 2014 at 14:45
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Points: 10213 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2014 at 11:40
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Svetonio Svetonio wrote:

Originally posted by silverpot silverpot wrote:

Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.


Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").
Did the article go on to say how Led Zeppelin and Ritchie Blackmore from Purple loathed the term 'heavy metal' as they felt it put them in a musical box that they were not willing to be shoved into at the time? I doubt it, but that's how even contemporary history is writtin at times, if Hitler is anything to go by.
Who really cares how a musician wants his work to be labeled?
it was / is always determined by the audience and critics are also part of the audience, although paid to write.
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Points: 494 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2014 at 12:31
When I want something sophisticated I listen to prog rock. When I want something really heavy I listen to the 80's metal cos early metal isn't that heavy and aggressive yet not really complicated as thrash metal. I like Budgie though.
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