Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=99054 Printed Date: November 28 2024 at 03:49 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: the 70s prog scene's attitude to early metalPosted By: Toaster Mantis
Subject: the 70s prog scene's attitude to early metal
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 14:10
This is something I'd like to have cleared up, after having brought it up in my threads about Budgie and Uriah Heep.
Even though many early heavy metal groups had one foot in progressive
rock, if contemporary interviews and reviews in Denmark and Sweden are
any indication a lot of people in the prog-rock movement here looked
down upon those bands as an dumbed down meathead version of the style.
According to publications cited in Jens Rasmussen's book about Danish
heavy metal history that's yet to be translated into other languages,
the early-1970s prog rock scene's musicians + fanzine writers +
champions among the music press would disparage most early heavy metal
groups (with the notable exception of Deep Purple) for their less advanced instrumental interplay and less clear sense of unified philosophical concept behind their music.
What I'm curious to know is whether it was like that outside of Scandinavia. Rick Wakeman playing synthesizers for Black Sabbath gives me the impression it might not, as did Frank Zappa producing one Grand Funk Railroad LP. Then again, they might have been exceptions.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Replies: Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 14:27
As an American that worked for several metal bands in the seventies and early eighties there was not much 'cross breeding' between the two genres as the fan bases basically were the ones that kept them separate at the time. Unlike today where metal and prog acts mix it up at The High Voltage Festival or something similar. I believe the deal with Zappa and Grand Funk was one more of compassion after the mistreatment of GFR by their management and to hopefully help break them out of the pop mold that they put themselves in. Unfortunately, the the well produced 1976 album by Zappa titled Good Singin', Good Playin' was more of the same and went nowhere.
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 17:18
I remember in the 70s, the proggers and the metalers would point fingers at each other, with a kind of "Why you moron?" attitude. No kidding. I am generalising, of course, but I remember the mental warfare.
Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 17:37
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 17:53
silverpot wrote:
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
Too bad this is not a metal site Silver, we could have a debate thread. In the States, 'heavy metal' and 'hard rock' were interchangeable in the early 70's with the phrase "heavy metal' originating from the song Born To Be Wild by Steppenwolf. After a while, the phrase was shortened to 'metal'. I recall that the Brits, particularly, Led Zep, objected to the phrase 'metal' and the UK music press followed suite. I'm talking about magazines like the NME, so perhaps that's why you recall the genre as refered to as 'hard rock' in the 70's as you live in Europe.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 18:59
silverpot wrote:
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
This. Kinda.
[To be fair: Rasmussen's book is entitled "Heavy Metal - 40 år med hård rock"] (40 years of hard rock)
In England we called it Heavy Rock or Heavy Music. The term Heavy Metal existed, but it was not a genre or even a style of music. Speculation of where the term originated is simply that - speculation, originally the term 'heavy metal' referred metal elements such as lead and cadmium and 'heavy' (as in the Ironing Buddafly album) was a slang term for deep and profound. It seems that for many years it was a snappy phrase in desperate search of a suitable application.
In 1974 Atlantic records released a compilation album called "Superstars of the 70s - Volume 2 - Heavy Metal" which would seem to put the lid on the question of whether Metal existed in 70s for good. The only problem with it is the track listing:
A1MC5Kick Out The Jams
A2Black SabbathIron Man
A3Alice CooperI'm Eighteen
A4Jimi HendrixFreedom
A5The James GangMust Be Love
A6Deep PurpleSmoke On The Water
B1T. RexBang A Gong (Get It On)
B2The J. Geils BandGive It To Me
B3Dr. JohnRight Place Wrong Time
B4Led ZeppelinD'yer Mak'er
B5Buffalo SpringfieldBluebird
B6FacesCindy Incidentally
C1The DoorsTouch Me
C2The Allman Brothers BandRamblin' Man
C3Delaney & BonnieOnly You And I Know
C4Van MorrisonDomino
C5EaglesOutlaw
C6 a)YesStarship Trooper: Life Seeker
C6 b)YesStarship Trooper: Disillusion
C6 c)YesStarship Trooper: Wurm
D1Golden EarringRadar Love
D2Grateful DeadJohnny B. Goode
D3FoghatWhat A Shame
D4Uriah HeepStealin'
D5WarLonely Feelin'
D6Blues ImageRide Captain Ride
*gulp* ... can everyone see what is wrong with this picture?
It seems that not only do we have disagreement on whether "Metal" bands of the 70s were known as Hard Rock or Heavy Rock, it appears that Atlantic Records were clueless about who or what Heavy Rock and/or Heavy Metal was. Or to put it another way - in 1974 Heavy Metal was everything: Blues Rock, Glam Rock, Country Rock, Prog Rock, even Zed Leppelin's cod-reggae thing.
Anyway,
I don't recall seeing any particular bias in England during the 1970s. Modern retrospective reviewers will never get it right, nor will revisionist rock journalists.
------------- What?
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 19:04
'^I'm only going by my time in jolly ol' England in the 70's and not from the perspective of a book. I' ll take my 'own take' on this one. Unless someone from the Commonwealth cares to take issue.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 19:12
^ I never said that you did, it was Simon who was referencing a book, not you.
But as someone from the 60s I do take issue with notion that the phrase "Heavy Metal" originated in Born To Be Wild - Steppenwolf used the phrase but it clearly refers to the elemental weather, (lightning, thunder, wind), not music, they certainly didn't invent or originate the term. There is no provable association between Born To Be Wild and the subsequent naming of Heavy Metal as a genre many years later.
------------- What?
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 19:15
Dean wrote:
^ I never said that you did, it was Simon who was referencing a book, not you.
But as someone from the 60s I do take issue with notion that the phrase "Heavy Metal" originated in Born To Be Wild - Steppenwolf used the phrase but it clearly refers to the elemental weather, (lightning, thunder, wind), not music, they certainly didn't invent or originate the term. There is no provable association between Born To Be Wild and the subsequent naming of Heavy Metal as a genre many years later.
I agree, more of a culture myth I think as the phrase first apeared in a 1968 article in Rolling Stone to be exact.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 19:23
^Sorry Dean, I'm not being curt, just busy with something. Even the RS article is up for debate as some people claim the term came from a NY Times review of my idol Mr. Hendrix, so it's all a crap shoot.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 19:38
^ possibly, but it still didn't refer to a genre of music. The phrase goes back to the 19th century and referred to any metal that was heavier than iron. But linking that to Iron Butterfly and Led Zeppelin (or "Lead Balloon" as Keith Moon allegedly described them) would be tenuous. The phrase as applied to the music genre was just as likely to be simple word association following on from Heavy Music to Heavy Rock to Heavy Metal - you cannot make a similar word association derivation from Hard Rock. Since no one ever writes this stuff down the exact moment it happens everything is a guess. This is true of many other genres including Prog, Punk and Gothic Rock - no one knows precisely when and how they got named.
------------- What?
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 19:43
^Agreed. But at sometime it did start to refer to guitar based heavy rock music in the seventies. I know. I was there.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 19:44
presdoug wrote:
I remember in the 70s, the proggers and the metalers would point fingers at each other, with a kind of "Why you moron?" attitude. No kidding. I am generalising, of course, but I remember the mental warfare.
It's true.
Personally, I always have beeen loved Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Uriah Heep and BOC, but KIss, Ted Nugent (except his Stanglehold the track which is a fantastic) and AC/DC- I used to hate these bands.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 19:46
Anyway, good night to all and thanks for the conversation.
Posted By: Prog_Traveller
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 19:54
I heard somewhere that the first band to be called "heavy metal" in print was a band called Sir Lord Baltimore. Black Sabbath are imo the first true heavy metal band but they didn't embrace the term. Judas Priest are possible the first band to embrace the term.
As for the prog connection to heavy metal. You can hear elements of metal in King Crimson, Uriah Heep and RUSH as well as Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple although none of those bands are what I would call straight heavy metal. They had elements of prog and heavy metal although even Black Sabbath had prog elements at times. King Crimson were actually referred to as "a snob's Black Sabbath" which I find to be rather amusing.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 20:06
SteveG wrote:
^Agreed. But at sometime it did start to refer to guitar based heavy rock music in the seventies. I know. I was there.
Sure thing - (and I was there too) - we could not have had a New Wave of British Heavy Metal from 1979 onwards unless there had been an Old Wave of [British] Heavy Metal prior to then.
However, that 'Old Wave' probably consisted of bands like Motorhead, Diamond Head, Ironing Maiden and Saxon (all formed between '75 & '76) who would become the main-stays of the New Wave rather than the Heavy Rock stalwarts of Sabbath, Purple and Zeppelin who frequently get touted as the original British 'Metal' bands. The anomaly is Priest, but they formed in 1969 as a blues band then moved to Heavy Rock in the mid-70s before being adopted into the NWOBHM scene in the 80s. Budgie fit in there somewhere but I've never really considered them to be a metal or even proto-metal band (or a Prog Related band come to that).
------------- What?
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 23 2014 at 21:54
Anyway, as interesting as this is it's all distracting from the OP.
As someone who was an avid music fan in the 70s and a follower of both Progressive Rock and Heavy Rock as I said I don't recall there being any particular bias in the British rock press (or among artists) in favour of Prog and against Heavy Rock. Sure there was a degree of delineation in fan-base between the two but it wasn't that prevalent compared to the negativity towards other more commercial or mainstream genres. If there was a split it would be between Blues-based rock and Rock'n'Roll based rock and not in how complex or erudite the music was, though even then there would be exceptions like Groundhogs, SAHB and Budgie. Both Progressive Rock and Heavy Metal tend to drop on the Rock'n'Roll side of that divide - there ain't a lot of Blues in either of them.
From what I remember (and from the contents of my own record collection) we were more eclectic than the stereotype image of the long-haired denim clad 70s youth would suggest. Back then the Underground and "serious" music scene were so broad and varied that most music fans would be receptive to a wide range of musical styles - the explosion in music and styles of music that occurred in that era was unparalleled - if you look at the line-up of the 1973 Reading Festival the diversity of music presented is staggering:
(£4.40 admission... it's a 100 times that now - thankfully the cost of buying albums hasn't gone up by that much)
Of course by the (very) late 70s that had all changed, and I don't doubt the animosity between music fans was as bad as Doug described it - the declining Prog fans were on the defensive by then and the upstart Metal heads were of the younger post-punk generation who thought a mullet looked cool.
------------- What?
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 03:14
I think the first band to classify their own music as "heavy metal" was either Blue Öyster Cultor Hawkwind, adding to the confusion, but not really as a genre classification until Judas Priest did so in the mid/late '70s when progressive rock was already declining in popularity.
So it seems like the rivalry between early metal and progressive rock, coming most one-sidedly from the prog circles, was indeed mostly a Scandinavian thing. There was a clear divide between the heavier and less technically proficient prog/psych groups like The Old Man and the Sea on one hand, and the music theory fiends like Secret Oyster on the other. The former ended up sharing more fans (and opening slots on tours) with Sabbath, Hawkwind, Zeppelin etc. than with Pink Floyd, The Soft Machine etc.
Interestingly enough Mercyful Fate drummer Kim Ruzz started out in prog-rock or at least had his music background there, but jumped ship to metal because of the prog rock movement shriveling up in the late '70s.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 04:10
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I think the first band to classify their own music as "heavy metal" was either Blue Öyster Cultor Hawkwind, adding to the confusion, (...)
I recall that even Jethro Tull was accepted by many hard rock fans back then as a hard rock band because they did do pretty heavy at the gigs. Not "heavy metal" though.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 04:14
Svetonio wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I think the first band to classify their own music as "heavy metal" was either Blue Öyster Cultor Hawkwind, adding to the confusion, (...)
I recall that even Jethro Tull was accepted by many hard rock fans back then as a hard rock band because they did do pretty heavy at the gigs. Not "heavy metal" though.
Much to the annoyance of Metallicacaca (however "back then" was the late 80s not the 70s)
------------- What?
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 04:20
I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy
Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black
Sabbath" -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 05:20
The Who were heavier and louder at stage than many of 70s 'officially' heavy metal (hard rock) acts.
In above video John Entwistle play bass guitar in the way that was ahead of his time.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 06:03
^ the Berlin Philharmonic playing Wagner on stage were probably louder and heavier so what's your point?
Atavachron wrote:
I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath" -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
I sorta agree with that because of the association to Rock'n'Roll based Rock in those bands - I notice he didn't mention Led Zeppelin who were more Blues-based even though they ventured into other genres they didn't begin as a Progressive Rock band.
------------- What?
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 06:18
Another fly in the ointment was the appearance of The Heavy Metal Kids on the Glam/Heavy Rock scene around 1972-74. Most certainly not a Heavy Metal band they took their name from William S. Burrough's Nova Trillogy:
"Citizens of Gravity we are converting all out to Heavy Metal. Carbonic Plague of the Vegetable
People threatens our Heavy Metal State. Report to your nearest Plating Station. It's fun to be
plated," says this well-known radio and TV personality who is now engraved forever in gags of
metal." ~ William S. Burroughs - The Soft Machine (1962)
Burroughs is of course referring to narcotics derived from toxic (heavy) metal elements and it wouldn't surprise me a great deal if most of the other uses of the phrase in the music scene picked it up from Burroughs. Hapshash and the Coloured Coat (who are only really remembered now for their iconic Hendrix, Soft Machine and Pink Floyd posters) used it along with another Burroughs phrase "The Human Host" as the title of their 1967 début album "Hapshash and the Coloured Coat Featuring The Human Host And The Heavy Metal Kids"
But again, I don't think any of that means a great deal in the scheme of things other than demonstrating that the phrase was in common use before it was used to describe the music genre.
------------- What?
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 06:20
Atavachron wrote:
I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy
Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black
Sabbath" -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
I believe so. Well, I was too young to be a fan in early 70s when e.g. Uriah Heep were considered as a progressive rock band; I remember them as a melodic hard rock band.
However, in the second half of the golden decade, I remember that New Hard Rock Champions undoubtely were AC/DC - the band which I used to hate with a passion.
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 07:15
Svetonio wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath" -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
I believe so. Well, I was too young to be a fan in early 70s when e.g. Uriah Heep were considered as a progressive rock band; I remember them as a melodic hard rock band.
However, in the second half of the golden decade, I remember that New Hard Rock Champions undoubtely were AC/DC - the band which I used to hate with a passion.
From what I remember of the 70s, both Sabbath and Heep were the objects of much derision in the music press at the time.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 13:01
chopper wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
I believe there was a brief period when the two were considered genetically related, at least from a certain perspective;"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath" -- from Philip S. Walker's notes in the Warhorse Red Sea reissue.
I believe so. Well, I was too young to be a fan in early 70s when e.g. Uriah Heep were considered as a progressive rock band; I remember them as a melodic hard rock band.
However, in the second half of the golden decade, I remember that New Hard Rock Champions undoubtely were AC/DC - the band which I used to hate with a passion.
From what I remember of the 70s, both Sabbath and Heep were the objects of much derision in the music press at the time.
What wasthe presslovedamongthe crowd of HeavyRockbands back then? Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple. But, Black SabbathandUriah Heephave long beenrehabilitated. Likethe FrenchImpressionists,lol.
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 13:57
Well, in Denmark those professional critics who defended progressive rock weren't the same who defended early heavy metal either. Again I don't know that much how it was elsewhere. Didn't Lester Bangs champion both in the US though?
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 15:37
I seemed to be one of the few fans in my circle of friends who enjoyed early metal acts (esp. Black Sabbath) as well as 70's prog. Most of my friends turned their noses up at the metal acts for some reason.
However, I didn't find it to be anything written in stone or anything. Some bands like Captain Beyond did a fine job of walking the line between metal and prog.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 15:47
Dean wrote:
Anyway, as interesting as this is it's all distracting from the OP.
As someone who was an avid music fan in the 70s and a follower of both Progressive Rock and Heavy Rock as I said I don't recall there being any particular bias in the British rock press (or among artists) in favour of Prog and against Heavy Rock. Sure there was a degree of delineation in fan-base between the two but it wasn't that prevalent compared to the negativity towards other more commercial or mainstream genres. If there was a split it would be between Blues-based rock and Rock'n'Roll based rock and not in how complex or erudite the music was, though even then there would be exceptions like Groundhogs, SAHB and Budgie. Both Progressive Rock and Heavy Metal tend to drop on the Rock'n'Roll side of that divide - there ain't a lot of Blues in either of them.
<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">From what I remember (and from the contents of my own record collection) we were more eclectic than the stereotype image of the long-haired denim clad 70s youth would suggest. </span>Back then the Underground and "serious" music scene were so broad and varied that most music fans would be receptive to a wide range of musical styles - the explosion in music and styles of music that occurred in that era was unparalleled - if you look at the line-up of the 1973 Reading Festival the diversity of music presented is staggering:
(£4.40 admission... it's a 100 times that now - thankfully the cost of buying albums hasn't gone up by that much)
Of course by <span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.2;">the (very) late 70s that had all changed, and I don't doubt the animosity between music fans was as bad as Doug described it - the declining Prog fans were on the defensive by then and the upstart Metal heads were of the younger post-punk generation who thought a mullet looked cool. </span>
Just wanted to comment on something. I think early on that the British heavy rock groups were blues based such as Led Zep and Sabbath and that even though the blues influence in the 'metal' genre gradually wore off by time Judas Priest came around there may have still been a divide between the prog and metal fans due to a musical influence that was completely abandoned.
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 17:18
I can't say much, I was very young then (born in '66) and living in a musically retarded country (Spain), but from that perspective I would say that there was no rivalry whatsoever, but the situation was not reciprocal, Prog fans in general tended to enjoy Heavy-Rock and early Metal, me and my mates were mostly Proggers but we loved heavy and metal as well, while many if not most Metal fans did not get what Prog was about and despised it.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 18:38
SteveG wrote:
Just wanted to comment on something. I think early on that the British heavy rock groups were blues based such as Led Zep and Sabbath and that even though the blues influence in the 'metal' genre gradually wore off by time Judas Priest came around there may have still been a divide between the prog and metal fans due to a musical influence that was completely abandoned.
Blues Rock certainly came first, growing out of the British R&B explosion of the mid 60s and many bands and musicians had Blues roots early in their careers. With only a few exceptions Psychedelic rock was where that blues influence was shaken off in favour or a more rock'n'roll form of rock music. British Progressive and Heavy Rock came out of Psych and not directly from R&B. The Animals psych records retained that R&B influence but they are probably the least British-sounding of all the Brit Psych bands, it's the Psych Pop bands like The Move whose non-blues form of rock would get heavier as the 70s dawned before branching off as ELO.
Of course there will always be exceptions and this is never an exact science. Black Sabbath, Jethro Tull and Judas Priest all began as Blues Rock in the latter half of the 60s (and all came from the English Midlands). But the majority of British blues-based heavy rock bands such Free, Bad Company, Cream, Humble Pie and Stray have never been associated with Progressive Rock or Heavy Metal.
[Then at the other extreme you've got Status Quo who quickly morphed from a being a very British Psych band into the most unprogressive and least experimental Heavy Rock band of all time. If ever was a band that was simultaneously condemned and condoned by the music press and the record buying public it would be Quo.]
Nascent music genres are not usually started by established bands, they either grow steadily from the grass-roots over a period of time "off-radar" and the suddenly becomes popular in a fully-formed state or they are triggered by a single notable event or newly emergent band with a drastically different take on the existing music scene and other bands run to keep up with them. The difficulty there is the paucity of recorded evidence of any of that underground activity, unlike today where anyone can record themselves and throw it out into the internet for all to hear or ignore, back then if you were not signed you didn't make records (Priest's début album was released five years after their formation and so we have no physical evidence of their blues-rock origins - similarly Maiden's debut was also released five years after their formation ).
The problem that people have in trying to identify the roots of heavy metal is there isn't an unbroken row of dots that we can draw neatly connected lines between - we can produce dots for when and where the name was used, dots for bands that were loud and heavy, dots for riff-based power chords, dots for screaming vocalists, dots for various bands that inspired later generations and dots for those one-off songs that sound like they could be proto-metal but the dots don't connect. This is why I can't see Sabbath, Purple or Zeppelin being called Metal as retrospective tag, this is why AC/DC don't even have a dot on the diagram.
I've posted an old TV programme from 1979 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81888&PID=5021411#5021411" rel="nofollow - in the Documentary Thread by a then youthful Danny Baker that discusses the new Heavy Metal music that was emerging in London at the time. For those with 24 minutes to waste watching a B&W video will see that in 1979 the term Heavy Metal as applied to a genre of music was new and originated as "The New Wave Of British Heavy Metal" without there being an Old Wave of British Heavy Metal to precede it. Not even the fans were sure whether to call it Heavy Metal, Heavy Rock or Hard Rock and Danny Baker merrily interchanges the three terms throughout his narration. For those who don't have 24 minutes to spare fast forward to 6:38 and listen to DJ Neal Kay of the Bandwagon Soundhouse try and explain the origin of the term (badly I might add).
------------- What?
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 18:51
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Just wanted to comment on something. I think early on that the British heavy rock groups were blues based such as Led Zep and Sabbath and that even though the blues influence in the 'metal' genre gradually wore off by time Judas Priest came around there may have still been a divide between the prog and metal fans due to a musical influence that was completely abandoned.
Blues Rock certainly came first, growing out of the British R&B explosion of the mid 60s and many bands and musicians had Blues roots early in their careers. With only a few exceptions Psychedelic rock was where that blues influence was shaken off in favour or a more rock'n'roll form of rock music. British Progressive and Heavy Rock came out of Psych and not directly from R&B. The Animals psych records retained that R&B influence but they are probably the least British-sounding of all the Brit Psych bands, it's the Psych Pop bands like The Move whose non-blues form of rock would get heavier as the 70s dawned before branching off as ELO.
Of course there will always be exceptions and this is never an exact science. Black Sabbath, Jethro Tull and Judas Priest all began as Blues Rock in the latter half of the 60s (and all came from the English Midlands). But the majority of British blues-based heavy rock bands such Free, Bad Company, Cream, Humble Pie and Stray have never been associated with Progressive Rock or Heavy Metal.
[Then at the other extreme you've got Status Quo who quickly morphed from a being a very British Psych band into the most unprogressive and least experimental Heavy Rock band of all time. If ever was a band that was simultaneously condemned and condoned by the music press and the record buying public it would be Quo.]
Nascent music genres are not usually started by established bands, they either grow steadily from the grass-roots over a period of time "off-radar" and the suddenly becomes popular in a fully-formed state or they are triggered by a single notable event or newly emergent band with a drastically different take on the existing music scene and other bands run to keep up with them. The difficulty there is the paucity of recorded evidence of any of that underground activity, unlike today where anyone can record themselves and throw it out into the internet for all to hear or ignore, back then if you were not signed you didn't make records (Priest's début album was released five years after their formation and so we have no physical evidence of their blues-rock origins - similarly Maiden's debut was also released five years after their formation ).
The problem that people have in trying to identify the roots of heavy metal is their isn't an unbroken row of dots that we can draw neatly connected lines between - we can produce dots for when and where the name was used, dots for bands that were loud and heavy, dots for riff-based power chords, dots for screaming vocalists, dots for various bands that inspired later generations and dots for those one-off songs that sound like they could be proto-metal but the dots don't connect. This is why I can't see Sabbath, Purple or Zeppelin being called Metal as retrospective tag, this is why AC/DC don't even have a dot on the diagram.
I've posted an old TV programme from 1979 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=81888&PID=5021411#5021411" rel="nofollow - in the Documentary Thread by a then youthful Danny Baker that discusses the new Heavy Metal music that was emerging in London at the time. For those with 24 minutes to waste watching a B&W video will see that in 1979 the term Heavy Metal as applied to a genre of music was new and originated as "The New Wave Of British Heavy Metal" without there being an Old Wave of British Heavy Metal to precede it. Not even the fans were sure whether to call it Heavy Metal, Heavy Rock or Hard Rock and Danny Baker merrily interchanges the three terms throughout his narration. For those who don't have 24 minutes to spare fast forward to 6:38 and listen to DJ Neal Kay of the Bandwagon Soundhouse try and explain the origin of the term (badly I might add).
I should have said that many of the early British hard rock/heavy rock/metal acts were blues based, but as you stated, groups like The Animals clearly were not but I will check out the documentary thread. Thanks.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:15
^Good doc Dean. Even if it seems to make things a bit more confusing. I'm still sticking to my take that the metal tag was resisted in England in the early to mid Seventies. I recall that it did become more used toward the end of the seventies but by that time it was an afterthought after punk rock kicked in, and I recall that Brtitish music magazines like NME and Sounds ate it up (punk rock), much to my dismay.
Posted By: DaleHauskins
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 19:54
The older I get,the more recording projects I play on,and gigs I do...As an American Los Angeles native Californian lifelong guitarist,I am truly amazed and see how blessed I was to have joined a well-known Swiss progressive rock band called Flame Dream;that was signed to Vertigo Records. There was no internet in 1979,and I was extremely bold and lucky to meet Peter Gabriel when I was 19 in Bath Spa England.All of it became together since that meeting. I moved to Lucerne Switzerland and became soon friends with bands like Switzerland's Krokus,and OM. No major record label would ever even think of signing a Swiss progressive rock band now...
Blessings everyone from record heat on this mega hot summer's day in Southern California !
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 24 2014 at 23:31
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Well, in Denmark those professional critics who defended progressive rock weren't the same who defended early heavy metal either. Again I don't know that much how it was elsewhere. Didn't Lester Bangs champion both in the US though?
That general "paperclip"of press andfans,musicians, the worshipersofheavyrock andprogressive rock, actually wasJimiHendrix,ofwhomHeavyRock was born in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Are_You_Experienced" rel="nofollow - May 12, 1967 .That newborn genre was "baptised"at the Jimi Hendrix concert at Monterey Pop Festival, in June 1967; after that the sound of the electric guitar was no longerthe same. Hendrix'revolution hasinspiredan entire generation ofyoung guitariststo moveto experimentwith their guitars-which has led that new bornheavy rock to all of its styles and sub-genres, but alsotheproto-progandprog (even Genesis were recoderd heavy track The Knife). So in the period from late 60s to early 70sthe fansand the rock criticswasundivided regarding that heavy rock / progressive rock.
An iconic picture of Jimi Hendrix at Monterey Pop Festival, June 1967
The picture was taken by Ed Caraeff, 17-year old boy who was in the front row.
Ed Caraeff never seen Hendrix before nor head his music.
Jimi Hendrix's Purple Haze,Foxy Lady and Wild Thing live performed at Monterey Pop Festival, June 1967.
EDIT: a stunning heavy perfomance of Voodo Child in Stockholm, 1969.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 02:46
silverpot wrote:
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 08:23
Svetonio wrote:
silverpot wrote:
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").
Did the article go on to say how Led Zeppelin and Ritchie Blackmore from Purple loathed the term 'heavy metal' as they felt it put them in a musical box that they were not willing to be shoved into at the time? I doubt it, but that's how even contemporary history is written at times, if Hitler is anything to go by.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 11:40
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
silverpot wrote:
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").
Did the article go on to say how Led Zeppelin and Ritchie Blackmore from Purple loathed the term 'heavy metal' as they felt it put them in a musical box that they were not willing to be shoved into at the time? I doubt it, but that's how even contemporary history is writtin at times, if Hitler is anything to go by.
Whoreallycareshowa musicianwantshis work tobelabeled? it was / isalwaysdetermined bythe audience and critics are also partof the audience, althoughpaidto write.
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 12:31
When I want something sophisticated I listen to prog rock. When I want something really heavy I listen to the 80's metal cos early metal isn't that heavy and aggressive yet not really complicated as thrash metal. I like Budgie though.
------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 13:14
LSDisease wrote:
When I want something sophisticated I listen to prog rock. When I want something really heavy I listen to the 80's metal cos early metal isn't that heavy and aggressive yet not really complicated as thrash metal. I like Budgie though.
Well, that "battle" between proggers and metalers (the hardcore fans of heavy stuff) started in second half of seventies when some bands (e.g. AC/DC) get an enormous success with their, for that time, extremly heavy music but created for entertainment only, and that was pretty opposed to "progosophy".
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 14:30
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
silverpot wrote:
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").
Did the article go on to say how Led Zeppelin and Ritchie Blackmore from Purple loathed the term 'heavy metal' as they felt it put them in a musical box that they were not willing to be shoved into at the time? I doubt it, but that's how even contemporary history is writtin at times, if Hitler is anything to go by.
Who really cares how a musician wants his work to be labeled?
The musician cares. It is he, she or they that have created the music not the audience or the music press and have every right, if not more, to say how they feel their music should be labeled, especially in regards to a new genre.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 14:48
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
silverpot wrote:
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").
Did the article go on to say how Led Zeppelin and Ritchie Blackmore from Purple loathed the term 'heavy metal' as they felt it put them in a musical box that they were not willing to be shoved into at the time? I doubt it, but that's how even contemporary history is writtin at times, if Hitler is anything to go by.
Who really cares how a musician wants his work to be labeled?
The musician cares. It is he, she or they that have created the music not the audience or the music press and have every right, if not more, to say how they feel their music should be labeled, especially in regards to a new genre.
Of course that a musician cares, and yet often the musicans strongly disagree in press with how they are labeled by audience, but their "protests" never was / never will change the audience's thoughts.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:01
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
silverpot wrote:
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").
Did the article go on to say how Led Zeppelin and Ritchie Blackmore from Purple loathed the term 'heavy metal' as they felt it put them in a musical box that they were not willing to be shoved into at the time? I doubt it, but that's how even contemporary history is writtin at times, if Hitler is anything to go by.
Who really cares how a musician wants his work to be labeled?
The musician cares. It is he, she or they that have created the music not the audience or the music press and have every right, if not more, to say how they feel their music should be labeled, especially in regards to a new genre.
Of course that a musician cares, and yet often the musicans strongly disagree in press with how they are labeled by audience, but their "protests" never was / never will change the audience's thoughts.
The metal tag attached to Zeppelin is still after the fact because as I stated, the group abhorred the metal tag as constricting and vulgar and the British music press went along with them for quite a while. So the claim that they are the God fathers of metal is a retro claim in their case and one that they still abhor up this day.
Posted By: Raccoon
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:12
What a strange idea, calling Led Zep 'heavy-metal'. They seem so far from it... Hard-blues...? Blues with a rock edge does NOT make it 'heavy-metal'. Though, I'm sure EVERY band would have their own genre if they got to choose what they classified as. Yes is 'Ambient-symphonic-rock', Genesis is 'theatrical-folk-rock'. Who knows. And who cares! A genre only attracts people who're familiar/likes that specific genre. If they didn't have labels, perhaps more people would experiment and listen to them.
Though, it's the publicity that attempts to give a label, not the bands most of the time... So, hey, disregard all of that.
------------- Check out my FREE album: A one-man project The Distant Dynasty
https://distantdynasty.bandcamp.com/
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:17
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
silverpot wrote:
Strange, I don't recall anyone refering to "metal" during the 70s. Hard rock, but not Metal.
Nick Logan and Bob Woffinden were mentioned "heavy-metal" the term several times in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock ( 1976 and 1977 Salamander Books Ltd. London, UK). You can read that in the chapters of Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath ( they wrote: "the band get an affirmation as one of the most successful British heavy-metal export acts"), Kiss, also in that separate entry for Ritchie Blackmore (they wrote: "founder of British heavy-metal band Deep Purple").
Did the article go on to say how Led Zeppelin and Ritchie Blackmore from Purple loathed the term 'heavy metal' as they felt it put them in a musical box that they were not willing to be shoved into at the time? I doubt it, but that's how even contemporary history is writtin at times, if Hitler is anything to go by.
Who really cares how a musician wants his work to be labeled?
The musician cares. It is he, she or they that have created the music not the audience or the music press and have every right, if not more, to say how they feel their music should be labeled, especially in regards to a new genre.
Of course that a musician cares, and yet often the musicans strongly disagree in press with how they are labeled by audience, but their "protests" never was / never will change the audience's thoughts.
The metal tag attached to Zeppelin is still after the fact because as I stated, the group abhorred the metal tag as constricting and vulgar and the British music press went along with them for quite a while. So the claim that they are the God fathers of metal is a retro claim in their case and one that they still abhor up this day.
Led Zeppelintooka lot of spacein theaforementionedbook, the authors wrote that aboutthem insuperlatives,so I do notbelievethat theheavy metaltagmuchharm the band heritageasthey themselvesareharmed(imo).
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:22
^I agree with Zeppelin wanting to distance themselves from the metal tag as they saw themselves as an experimental blues based band but you are correct in stating that at this stage, it certainly did them no harm regardless if they still hold a grudge against the term. And the grudge has been going on for 40 years!
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:29
Raccoon wrote:
What a strange idea, calling Led Zep 'heavy-metal'. They seem so far from it... Hard-blues...? Blues with a rock edge does NOT make it 'heavy-metal'. (...)
Of course, I agreethat it isstrange by ourtoday's perception, butforNickLoganandBobWoffinden (who actuallywrote the superlatives about the band) back thenin 1976/1977 - that *heavy metal* tag for Led Zep was nothingstrange and that's it.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 15:48
Svetonio wrote:
...who actually wrote the superlatives about the band back then in 1976/1977 that *heavy metal* tag for Led Zep was nothing strange and that's it.
The fact that these two writers called them metal probably means little as many others classified them under hard rock or heavy rock at the time and that's it. Get it? You cannot go by one book, especially when dealing with this subject.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 16:21
Especially when that book was revised and rewritten in 1983
------------- What?
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 16:23
^The plot thickens. Time to call in Sherlock Holmes.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 16:27
No worries, claiming it's a first edition is easy enough
------------- What?
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 25 2014 at 23:43
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
...who actually wrote the superlatives about the band back then in 1976/1977 that *heavy metal* tag for Led Zep was nothing strange and that's it.
The fact that these two writers called them metal probably means little as many others classified them under hard rock or heavy rock at the time and that's it. Get it? You cannot go by one book, especially when dealing with this subject.
For what I wanted to say this book is quite sufficient and actually I proved that *heavy metal* the term has been used in seventies; the fact is that *heavy metal* the term has been used a years before that new wave of British heavy metal bands (i.e. Iron Maiden and Saxon).
Of course, it has been used in this book all along with *heavy rock* & *hard rock* the terms, but *heavy metal* was already there and consenquently it found its place in an ambitious publishing venture of British rock journalism - The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia of Rock, issued in 1977.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 26 2014 at 09:07
^You are still missing the point so I'll say it again. The term 'metal' was used more in American pop culture in the early to mid seventies than it ever was in the UK for the reasons I listed numerous times. It was not until after punk rock exploded in the UK that the 'metal" tag started to be used with some regularity, and even then it was used with confusion. That's why I sugested to the member from Sweden that may have been the reason why he did not recall the term 'metal' being used in the seventies but only 'hard rock'. I worked in the UK at various times in the seventies and that's how I recall it. Because a different term for a genre of music was available on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean or stated in a book does not mean that it was commonly used. Hopefully you understood my point. now
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: July 26 2014 at 10:22
Brits always prefered simple music so it's truly amazing that prog rock
was invented in Britain. Brits like it simple, they loved punk rock from
the start and that love never vanished. British music in the 60's was
the core, the 70's British prog rock the best stuff on earth, the 80's
new wave of British heavy metal saved British music in the decade
dominated by the US hard rock. The 90's and so on for the British music
was a disaster. British music doesn't exist anymore. IQ release album
from time to time but nobody cares and that's it.
------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 26 2014 at 11:33
LSDisease wrote:
Brits always prefered simple music so it's truly amazing that prog rock
was invented in Britain. Brits like it simple, they loved punk rock from
the start and that love never vanished. British music in the 60's was
the core, the 70's British prog rock the best stuff on earth, the 80's
new wave of British heavy metal saved British music in the decade
dominated by the US hard rock. The 90's and so on for the British music
was a disaster. British music doesn't exist anymore. IQ release album
from time to time but nobody cares and that's it.
But where was punk rock invented? If anything, the Brits took American forms and made them more complex like Chicago blues into electric blues rock and then electric blues rock into long form Sabbath and Zeppelin progressive blues rock. See what I mean?
Posted By: LSDisease
Date Posted: July 26 2014 at 11:59
SteveG wrote:
LSDisease wrote:
Brits always prefered simple music so it's truly amazing that prog rock
was invented in Britain. Brits like it simple, they loved punk rock from
the start and that love never vanished. British music in the 60's was
the core, the 70's British prog rock the best stuff on earth, the 80's
new wave of British heavy metal saved British music in the decade
dominated by the US hard rock. The 90's and so on for the British music
was a disaster. British music doesn't exist anymore. IQ release album
from time to time but nobody cares and that's it.
But where was punk rock invented? If anything, the Brits took American forms and made them more complex like Chicago blues into electric blues and then electric blues into long form Sabbath and Zeppelin blues rock. See what I mean?
hard to say, some British rock and roll bands in the 60's got that
attitude, The Who for example. But punk rock as a genere was invented in
the US I guess. The Ramones and all the CBGB's bands. I think British
prog musicians were all classically trained or they were into jazz and
blues. Don't think they were into rock and roll, maybe with the
exception of Keith Emerson cos he was in everything from boogie woogie
to electronic music.
------------- "Du gehst zu Frauen? Vergiss die Peitsche nicht!"
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 26 2014 at 15:27
^I'm no expert on punk by a long shot but I think it started with the American band Television in 1973. Accounts probably differ so we might need to pick Dean's brain on this one. And then get back to the topic.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 26 2014 at 16:57
SteveG wrote:
^I'm no expert on punk by a long shot but I think it started with the American band Television in 1973. Accounts probably differ so we might need to pick Dean's brain on this one. And then get back to the topic.
Dean wrote:
Nascent music genres are not usually started by established bands, they either grow steadily from the grass-roots over a period of time "off-radar" and the suddenly becomes popular in a fully-formed state or they are triggered by a single notable event or newly emergent band with a drastically different take on the existing music scene and other bands run to keep up with them. The difficulty there is the paucity of recorded evidence of any of that underground activity, unlike today where anyone can record themselves and throw it out into the internet for all to hear or ignore, back then if you were not signed you didn't make records (Priest's début album was released five years after their formation and so we have no physical evidence of their blues-rock origins - similarly Maiden[Television]'s début was also released fourfive years after their formation)
------------- What?
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 27 2014 at 10:20
presdoug wrote:
I remember in the 70s, the proggers and the metalers would point fingers at each other, with a kind of "Why you moron?" attitude. No kidding. I am generalising, of course, but I remember the mental warfare.
I never saw this.
But the majority of commentary was heard in radio in the early days, a lot more than anything else.
It was a media creation, and we, as part of the meat grinder, fell for it. Otherwise you gonna tell me that you did not have the "know" to go listen and like something (supposedly) better! FOR THE RECORD, there was just as much crap in the metal, as there was in the proggers, and what I used to call "quasi-proggers".
You really need to listen to the NY scene. It was metal before the word existed! Though some call it closer to punk than metal!
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Posted By: KingCrInuYasha
Date Posted: July 27 2014 at 11:40
SteveG wrote:
^I'm no expert on punk by a long shot but I think it started with the American band Television in 1973. Accounts probably differ so we might need to pick Dean's brain on this one. And then get back to the topic.
Actually, you could also say that American punk started in 1968 - '69 with The MC5 and The Stooges.
------------- He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
Posted By: cstack3
Date Posted: July 27 2014 at 17:49
SteveG wrote:
^I'm no expert on punk by a long shot but I think it started with the American band Television in 1973. Accounts probably differ so we might need to pick Dean's brain on this one. And then get back to the topic.
Stateside, I think many of us believe that one of the very first bands to kick off "punk" was the band "MC5."
There were a lot of crossover influences between prog, punk and glam as I recall. Eno's solo work certainly tapped into the energy of punk.
The Sex Pistols really seemed to kick it into overdrive over here. I played in a few punk bands, and we were actually influenced by bands like King Crimson.....one extended jam I would use to warm up the band was "Larks Tongues In Aspic Part II."
The Brits always seem to come to the game ready to win! Punk, prog, whatever. Love you guys!
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 00:27
SteveG wrote:
^You are still missing the point so I'll say it again. The term 'metal' was used more in American pop culture in the early to mid seventies than it ever was in the UK for the reasons I listed numerous times. It was not until after punk rock exploded in the UK that the 'metal" tag started to be used with some regularity, and even then it was used with confusion. That's why I sugested to the member from Sweden that may have been the reason why he did not recall the term 'metal' being used in the seventies but only 'hard rock'. I worked in the UK at various times in the seventies and that's how I recall it. Because a different term for a genre of music was available on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean or stated in a book does not mean that it was commonly used. Hopefully you understood my point. now
You're still missing my point actually. In my response to a member from Sweden, my pointwasthat theheavy metalas the termexistedinthe 70s and that thereis writtenevidence about that matter in The illustrated New Musical Express Encyclopedia ofRock (1977), writtenby well knowing and respected British rockjournalists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Logan" rel="nofollow - Nick Logan and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Woffinden" rel="nofollow - Bob Woffinden .
Now
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 08:50
^Good Grief Charlie Brown! now
Posted By: silverpot
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 13:45
SteveG wrote:
^Good Grief Charlie Brown! now
I'm sorry for starting this discussion, please forgive me.
And you're absolutely right of course.
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 13:54
Was it the NME or Sounds or some other UK music magazine that first identified the "New Wave of British Heavy Metal" that took off in the late 1970s? In Denmark/Sweden that kind of music was called "betonrock", which means "concrete rock" in Danish, until around that time of the NWoBHM and it has kind of stuck as a slang term for 1970s psychedelic hard rock. Again, going off that book I mentioned in the OP.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:00
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Was it the NME or Sounds or some other UK music magazine that first identified the "New Wave of British Heavy Metal" that took off in the late 1970s? In Denmark/Sweden that kind of music was called "betonrock", which means "concrete rock" in Danish, until around that time of the NWoBHM and it has kind of stuck as a slang term for 1970s psychedelic hard rock. Again, going off that book I mentioned in the OP.
I believe so in an effort to play catch up after avoiding trying to pin the tag on many early hard rock bands like Deep Purple who hated the term but by that time, as I said, punk rock exploded so it seemed to me like an afterthought as the UK went gaga for punk or at least the Sex Pistols at first.
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:13
Well, punk seems to often have been a "cultural movement" first and a genre of music second so I guess it's easier to analyze sociologically. The NWoBHM did have some of that kind of mentality but to nowhere the same extent. The only time any metal scene in the First World's approximated that was the early-1990s black metal "inner circles", except in a more cultish manner. (it's probably a different situation in places like Eastern Europe and Latin America where both are still considered genuinely subversive and dangerous by the populace at large)
I think it's pretty clear that heavy metal didn't crystallize as a well-codified genre artists deliberately set out to play until the mid-1970s, and didn't really pick up an associated subculture until the NWoBHM either. Conversely, that was by the same time that progressive rock's golden age was generally agreed to for the most part have ended or started declining. What I refer to is how big an ideological rift between most of the "proto-metal" groups on one hand, and the less heavy but more technically accomplished prog-rock groups on the other, there was prior to that.
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:18
^I keep forgetting to note, as I think everyone worked with hard rock/ metal bands like I did , that Judas Priest took off in Europe big time in 1979 as an answer for people that were not into punk with the rest of the metal brigade like Iron Maiden, et al, following close behind. (The so called New Wave of Heavy Metal.)
Posted By: Toaster Mantis
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:37
I'm curious how popular JP were before Killing Machine came out, that album seems to have been their big break and also where they jettisoned both the progressive touches their music had before that as well as the more introverted lyrics. Speaking of connections between the prog/psych scene and early metal I do also believe that Roger Glover from Deep Purple produced Sin After Sin. (I'm not sure if DP ever embraced the "progressive rock" label either)
------------- "The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 28 2014 at 14:46
^I know they picked up steam with Killing Machine as I was in the UK in 78 when it came out but I'm not sure about before. I recall someone referring to them as being a bit on the fey side with Halford trying to imitate high range singers like Coverdale but that's just heresay as I never saw them myself before the 80s.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 01:42
Toaster Mantis wrote:
I'm curious how popular JP were before Killing Machine came out, that album seems to have been their big break and also where they jettisoned both the progressive touches their music had before that as well as the more introverted lyrics. Speaking of connections between the prog/psych scene and early metal I do also believe that Roger Glover from Deep Purple produced Sin After Sin. (I'm not sure if DP ever embraced the "progressive rock" label either)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdNHjFyzmR0" rel="nofollow - Stained Class the album(1978) actually reveals their 'new-heavy-metal' direction; this album sounds slightly like a prog metal - the genre that will be labeled a decade after Stained Class were released. My fav album by JP.
BeforeStainedClass, they have got some "hits"as Rocka Rolla, Cheater, The Ripperand epicVictimof Changes. Personally, I knew for the band since 1975 when as a little kid I bought Rocka Rolla the album because of that great http://www.robbierocks.ch/LP%20covers/Rocka%20Rolla.c.jpg" rel="nofollow - cover design by John Pache ( I loved to buy the LPs by these - to me previously unknow - U.S. and U.K. bands just on the album covers basis - it was so exciting back then). However, Judas Priest definitelybecomereally greatheavy-metal stars in1980 as apart ofthe New Waveof BritishHeavy Metal scene & with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTkxC0W92aA" rel="nofollow - British Steel the album. i.e. when they were changed thier heavy music's direction for third time - they left above mentioned proggy elements and then that was pure NWOBHM sound.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 09:59
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Speaking of connections between the prog/psych scene and early metal I do also believe that Roger Glover from Deep Purple produced Sin After Sin. (I'm not sure if DP ever embraced the "progressive rock" label either)
I was able to speak with a friend that spent some time up close with Blackmore and Glover in their Rainbow days and he had some interresting perspectives worth sharing regarding the prog and metal connection. As capricious as Blackmore is (he's playing lute and hurdy gurdy in his new band Blackmore's Night), my friend felt that Blackmore considered himself a contemporary of 70's guitar icons like Clapton, Beck and Page and would probably have rejected the prog label applied to DP as well as the metal tag. The other divide that my friend brought up aside from different fan bases was the lyrical content of hard rock vs. prog in the seventies. Smoke On The Water vs. And You and I. One genre was singing about sex, drugs and rock and roll while the other is singing about who knows what? Enlightenment? Something that the hard rock genre was said to loath, so some other dividing points were brought up that seem to make sense in keeping the two genres apart.
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:17
To put my five-penneth in - I think that the term Metal - (as far as I can remember - was possibly very late seventies, mind you I only started liking Sabbath, Purple, Motorhead , Saxon, Iron Maiden - late seventies so maybe it was in more common parlance mid seventies - I was just not aware of it....
------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 10:23
^A penny for your thoughts, as we say in the States. Or a half penny as they used to say in Canada.
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: July 29 2014 at 21:12
SteveG wrote:
Toaster Mantis wrote:
Speaking of connections between the prog/psych scene and early metal I do also believe that Roger Glover from Deep Purple produced Sin After Sin. (I'm not sure if DP ever embraced the "progressive rock" label either)
I was able to speak with a friend that spent some time up close with Blackmore and Glover in their Rainbow days and he had some interresting perspectives worth sharing regarding the prog and metal connection. As caprious as Blackmore is (he's playing lute and hurdy gurdy in his new band Blackmore's Night), my friend felt that Blackmore considered himself a contemporary of 70's guitar icons like Clapton, Beck and Page and would probably have rejected the prog label applied to DP as well as the metal tag. The other divide that my friend brought up aside from different fan bases was the lyrical content of hard rock vs. prog in the seventies. Smoke On The Water vs. And You and I. One genre was singing about sex, drugs and rock and roll while the other is singing about who knows what? Enlightenment? Something that the hard rock genre was said to loath, so some other dividing points were brought up that seem to make sense in keeping the two genres apart.
On the booklet notes from some Deep Purple albums I just got last year, they referred to themselves as prog. I think they included Led Zeppelin there, too.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 08:25
^Sounds like rewritten history or the opinion of the writer of the liner notes, but if the quote was from one of the band members At the time the album was released ( I presume it's a seventies album), it would have some credability.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 08:43
^ Definitely. I suspect that back before "In Rock" Deep Purple probably did consider themselves to be a part of The British Progressive Underground scene but no one was actually called "Prog" at that stage.
------------- What?
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 15:16
I think that some of Purple is proto.progressive.metal especially tracks like "Burn" and Child in time....
------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 30 2014 at 16:13
...except those were recorded after Prog had been established. Their proto Prog stuff would necessarily have to come from their first three albums, like Anthem or April.
------------- What?
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 31 2014 at 11:41
I ran by a short passage in Dave Thompson's 2004 book on the history of DP titled Smoke On The Water: The Deep Purple Story where he mentions that some of the British music press (not identified) tried to place the nascent prog name on DP but as soon as the song Smoke On The Water went ballistic world wide, the band was quickly shuffled back into the 'hard rock' category. (The author's words).
However, the search for a connection continues.
Posted By: Billy Pilgrim
Date Posted: July 31 2014 at 20:06
Whatever, prog rock even looked down upon itself for a little while, I love prog, but I think it's safe to say that some of its icons weren't the nicest guys, dare are I say they were, pretentious Metal thrived in the eighties, and I'm sure the guys in all the metal bands were having a good laugh at their success, and a good cry about what the giants of prog, who I assume allot of the metal musicians listened too, were doing in that time period. At the heart of it, I think musicians have a mutual respect for one another.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: August 01 2014 at 06:28
In my country (I'm talking now about our, local scene in ex-Yugoslavia), there had been a huge "disagreement"between proggers andmetallers (the hardcore fans of heavy stuff)alsoin the secondhalf of theseventies. Iwellrememberwhen thebands likePop Mašina (engl. "PopMachine", alreadyinPA) was replaced with the bandssuch Vatreni Poljubac (engl. "Kissof Fire"). Whileboth wereheavy, the difference in the musicand the imagewasdrastic at that time.
(^ Vatreni Poljubac were the first real heavy metal band in ex-Yugoslavia)
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 01 2014 at 09:22
Billy Pilgrim wrote:
Whatever, prog rock even looked down upon itself for a little while, I love prog, but I think it's safe to say that some of its icons weren't the nicest guys, dare are I say they were, pretentious Metal thrived in the eighties, and I'm sure the guys in all the metal bands were having a good laugh at their success, and a good cry about what the giants of prog, who I assume allot of the metal musicians listened too, were doing in that time period. At the heart of it, I think musicians have a mutual respect for one another.
I agree that musicians had a mutual respect for each others playing abilities but as I stated metal acts were no great fans of prog lyrics.
Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: August 01 2014 at 21:41
SteveG wrote:
^Sounds like rewritten history or the opinion of the writer of the liner notes, but if the quote was from one of the band members At the time the album was released ( I presume it's a seventies album), it would have some credability.
Actually, you are right. I was just checking the liner notes again. It's from the "In Rock" reissue, it seems. It was written by some Simon Robinson in 1995. In one of his prog references he said (about the "black night" single): "It's perhaps a little hard now to appreciate the debate about singles which raged in the very early 70's amongst progressive rock bands. Many saw themselves as forming part of an underground movement which wanted no part of the commercial daytime radio scene, and releasing singles was seen as pandering to a medium they despised. Led Zeppelin were of course the arch example...". Also, in a quote from Ian Gillan, he compared Deep Purple with Led Zeppelin, Jethro Tull, and Black Sabbath, mainly saying that their own aproach was different to theirs... but still he must have felt there were important similarities between the bands to put them all together.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 05 2014 at 10:20
^Indeed, as Jon Lord himself once remarked that DP were a hard rock band ' with one foot dragging back in the Blues'. Again, a similar attitude to both Zeppelin and Sabbath, at the time.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 05 2014 at 10:27
Updating the Grand Funk and Zappa connection, Billy James' definitive 1999 bio book on GFR titled An American Band: The story of Grand Funk Railroad states that the GFR/Zappa connection was made by GFR's manager at the time with both GFR and Zappa having never met before then. The only loose end in this prog and metal story is Rick Wakeman's contribution to the song Sabbra Cadabra on BS's 1973 album Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. Does anyone know how that collaberation came about?
Posted By: zravkapt
Date Posted: August 05 2014 at 10:53
SteveG wrote:
The only lose end in this prog and metal story is Rick Wakeman's contribution to the song Sabra Cadabra on BS's 1973 album Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. Does anyone know how that collaberation came about?
Yes were recording TFTO next door. Wakeman asked to be paid in beer.
------------- Magma America Great Make Again
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 05 2014 at 10:57
^Sounds llke something the self deprecating Wakeman would do. Thanks.
Posted By: rocknrollcola
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 15:36
Festivals and concert bills had both Hard Rock/Heavy Metal Bands and Progressive Rock Bands sharing bills. Even Jazz Fusion/Jazz Rock would be on the bill along with other things in the mix.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 15:40
rocknrollcola wrote:
Festivals and concert bills had both Hard Rock/Heavy Metal Bands and Progressive Rock Bands sharing bills. Even Jazz Fusion/Jazz Rock would be on the bill along with other things in the mix.
I believe that was before bands like Tull actually went full blown prog and started identifying with the Progressive Rock genre, as they were a blues rock band in the late 60's.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 16:50
SteveG wrote:
rocknrollcola wrote:
Festivals and concert bills had both Hard Rock/Heavy Metal Bands and Progressive Rock Bands sharing bills. Even Jazz Fusion/Jazz Rock would be on the bill along with other things in the mix.
I believe that was before bands like Tull actually went full blown prog and started identifying with the Progressive Rock genre, as they were a blues rock band in the late 60's.
I don't know about the rest of the world but the most successful festivals in the UK have been those with an eclectic mix of genres, from the 60s through to the present day both Reading and Glastonbury have had extremely diverse lineups. While featuring mainly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_festival#1970s" rel="nofollow - Prog, Blues and Rock in the 1970s , Reading was officially known as the http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ri3pYfD3vOA/T5GDJkv-1iI/AAAAAAAABAM/bv-db91OLnA/s1600/Reading%2BPoster.jpg" rel="nofollow - National Jazz, Blues and Rock Festival . Even one-day events such as Knebworth would have wide mix of genres on the same bill through-out the 70s.
------------- What?
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 17:13
^ I forgot all about the open air festivals as I only did sound work in music hall venues. How many open air festivals did the UK have in the seventies aside from The Isle Of Wight and the two you noted?
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 17:25
SteveG wrote:
^ I forgot all about the open air festivals as I only did sound work in music hall venues. How many open air festivals did the UK have in the seventies aside from The Isle Of Wight and the two you noted?
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 06 2014 at 17:54
^Funny, there seems to be about 15-16 in 1970. Then 10 in 1971, 8 in 1972, then down to 5 by 1979. The festivals seem to have drifted out with the counter culture.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 07 2014 at 09:22
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
rocknrollcola wrote:
Festivals and concert bills had both Hard Rock/Heavy Metal Bands and Progressive Rock Bands sharing bills. Even Jazz Fusion/Jazz Rock would be on the bill along with other things in the mix.
I believe that was before bands like Tull actually went full blown prog and started identifying with the Progressive Rock genre, as they were a blues rock band in the late 60's.
I don't know about the rest of the world but the most successful festivals in the UK have been those with an eclectic mix of genres, from the 60s through to the present day both Reading and Glastonbury have had extremely diverse lineups. While featuring mainly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_festival#1970s" rel="nofollow - Prog, Blues and Rock in the 1970s , Reading was officially known as the http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ri3pYfD3vOA/T5GDJkv-1iI/AAAAAAAABAM/bv-db91OLnA/s1600/Reading%2BPoster.jpg" rel="nofollow - National Jazz, Blues and Rock Festival . Even one-day events such as Knebworth would have wide mix of genres on the same bill through-out the 70s.
To answer your question Dean as I doubt anyone else will, the States still had big open air concerts after the 1969 Altamont debacle but they were mostly genre specific and seperated. There were exceptions with Pink Floyd and especially Yes headlining some events, but that represents the divide between the States and the UK. UK radio stations and concert promoters were not disturbed by mixing genres and as a consequence, neither were it's audiences. Just another thing that divided America and the UK in the seventies, aside from a common language.