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dtguitarfan
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Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
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Points: 1708
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 05:39 |
Dean wrote:
Taken out of context it can mean whatever you want it to mean, that's the point of it:
But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Shew me the tribute money." And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, "Whose is this image and superscription?"
They say unto him, "Caesar's." Then saith he unto them, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's" |
It was a trick answer to a trick question. |
I agree. Actually, this conversation ended up inspiring part of a blog post I am working on, which I am calling "Five Misunderstood Non-Violent Resistance Teachings of Jesus" - I thought I'd share what I've got for "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s": This statement is commonly used
as a sort of proof that Jesus was for "separation of church and state" -
or to put it in other words, a depoliticization of Jesus. The message
many would desire us to take from this teaching of Jesus was that we
should not concern ourselves with political things, but concentrate on
spiritual matters so we can "go to heaven" (which, by the way, is not a Biblical concept).
But
there are a number of problems with this interpretation of the scenario
in this passage. The larger passage shows us that the officials of the
religious authority complex were looking for a way to arrest Jesus, and
were planning to catch Jesus in his own words. What this indicates is
that when they asked Jesus if it was right to pay the imperial tax, they
expected Jesus to answer in a way that would implicate him in treason
so that he could be arrested on the spot. For Jesus to answer in the
affirmative would have negated his teachings up to this point, but to
answer in the negative would result in an end to his movement. So Jesus
had to come up with a clever answer to get out of this trap that they
had set.
When you put Jesus statement above into the context, you
find some interesting things - first of which is the fact that Jesus
asks someone to bring him a denarius - the coin which would have been
used for this particular tax. What's interesting is that Jesus didn't have
a denarius of his own. Why wouldn't Jesus have one of his own sitting
in his own pocket - why would he have to ask someone to bring him one?A denarius bore a picture of
Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius,
son of the Divine Augustus". This inscription indicated the divinity of
Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the
empire cult. This did not mesh well with Jewish beliefs, which included
a little command that went "you shall have no other gods before me" and
another command about not making graven images. To even possess this
coin could be seen as idolatry to a Jew. So Jesus didn't even have one
on him!
Additionally, the way Jesus words his statement in Mark 12:17
is very interesting. He starts his statement with: "give back to
Caesar what is Caesar's". The question this statement raises is: what
belongs to Caesar? In other words - some things don't belong to him. Also, how is it that you're giving back what already belonged to him?
The
way Jesus' statement is worded indicates that if you have received
benefits from Caesar, you should pay him back according to your debt.
In other words, if you want to protest the unjust taxes, you have no
right to do so if you are living off of the benefits of the government.
If you want to protest the unjust system, you should remove yourself
completely from the system first - which we see that Jesus has done,
since he possesses no money at the time he is asked this question.
Mohandas K. Gandhi wrote about this passage:
Jesus
evaded the direct question put to him because it was a trap. He was in
no way bound to answer it. He therefore asked to see the coin for taxes.
And then said with withering scorn, "How can you who traffic in
Caesar's coins and thus receive what to you are benefits of Caesar's
rule refuse to pay taxes?" Jesus' whole preaching and practice point
unmistakably to noncooperation, which necessarily includes nonpayment of
taxes. |
The second half of the statement in Mark 12:17
is also very interesting - Jesus says to give to God what is God's.
This statement is a parallel statement - in the first half of the
statement, Jesus says to give a coin which bears the image of Caesar
back to Caesar. In the second half of the statement, he makes a
parallel statement - the Jewish belief is that all people were made in
the image of God. As the coin bears the image of Caesar, so all people
bear the image of God. So what Jesus is saying in this statement is
that we should give the whole of our being over to God! This was a
radical message of resistance, because Jesus was saying that Caesar's
authority was limited, and God's authority was unlimited!
Dale Glass-Hess wrote:
It
is inconceivable to me that Jesus would teach that some spheres of
human activity lie outside the authority of God. Are we to heed Caesar
when he says to go to war or support war-making when Jesus says in other
places that we shall not kill? No! My perception of this incident is
that Jesus does not answer the question about the morality of paying
taxes to Caesar, but that he throws it back on the people to decide. |
Edited by dtguitarfan - October 24 2013 at 05:42
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dtguitarfan
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Points: 1708
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 07:37 |
Update: went ahead and posted my new blog post.
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Dean
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 08:18 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
A denarius bore a picture of
Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius,
son of the Divine Augustus". This inscription indicated the divinity of
Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the
empire cult.
|
Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula.
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What?
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dtguitarfan
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Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 10:02 |
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
A denarius bore a picture of
Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius,
son of the Divine Augustus". This inscription indicated the divinity of
Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the
empire cult.
|
Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula. |
Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean? I'm not just making stuff up....
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timothy leary
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 10:37 |
What is your point? Jews never worshipped Roman men
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 10:59 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
A denarius bore a picture of
Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius,
son of the Divine Augustus". This inscription indicated the divinity of
Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the
empire cult.
|
Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula. |
Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean? I'm not just making stuff up....
|
Yes I've heard of the imperial cult - Augustus created it and it does not make the living Caesar a deity. The deifying of Augustus was an honorific bestowed after his death, Tiberius was not deified at all. This was a new Roman idea at the time and not in the traditional pantheon of Roman gods - however the tradition of deifying the venerable dead first established by Tiberius on his step-father endures in Rome to this day with the attributing of "divinity" to mortals on a regular basis - the last being a priest from Malta called George Preca (who died in 1962) in 2007 though many have been beatified since then (half-way to divinity). The Latin Divi also translates as Saint
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What?
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dtguitarfan
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Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 12:56 |
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
A denarius bore a picture of
Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius,
son of the Divine Augustus". This inscription indicated the divinity of
Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the
empire cult.
|
Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula. |
Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean? I'm not just making stuff up....
|
Yes I've heard of the imperial cult - Augustus created it and it does not make the living Caesar a deity. The deifying of Augustus was an honorific bestowed after his death, Tiberius was not deified at all. This was a new Roman idea at the time and not in the traditional pantheon of Roman gods - however the tradition of deifying the venerable dead first established by Tiberius on his step-father endures in Rome to this day with the attributing of "divinity" to mortals on a regular basis - the last being a priest from Malta called George Preca (who died in 1962) in 2007 though many have been beatified since then (half-way to divinity). The Latin Divi also translates as Saint
|
You don't have to literally "make someone a living deity" in order to have idolatrous attitudes toward them. And people of all faiths know this intuitively - we're always talking about our idols, those being the things we are so dependent on that we feel like we can't do without them. And many of the practices that the Romans had insisted their conquered people do in order to show fealty would have been considered idolatrous by Jews. I am arguing that simply carrying a coin with the Caesar's image and the words "son of the Divine Augustus" would have been considered by many Jews of the day to be breaking Torah. We don't need to get into an argument about the difference between gods and demi-gods and the difference between Augustus and Tiberius for my argument to be a valid one.
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 13:38 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
A denarius bore a picture of Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus". This inscription indicated the divinity of Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the empire cult. |
Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula. |
Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean? I'm not just making stuff up....
|
Yes I've heard of the imperial cult - Augustus created it and it does not make the living Caesar a deity. The deifying of Augustus was an honorific bestowed after his death, Tiberius was not deified at all. This was a new Roman idea at the time and not in the traditional pantheon of Roman gods - however the tradition of deifying the venerable dead first established by Tiberius on his step-father endures in Rome to this day with the attributing of "divinity" to mortals on a regular basis - the last being a priest from Malta called George Preca (who died in 1962) in 2007 though many have been beatified since then (half-way to divinity). The Latin Divi also translates as Saint
|
You don't have to literally "make someone a living deity" in order to have idolatrous attitudes toward them. And people of all faiths know this intuitively - we're always talking about our idols, those being the things we are so dependent on that we feel like we can't do without them. And many of the practices that the Romans had insisted their conquered people do in order to show fealty would have been considered idolatrous by Jews. I am arguing that simply carrying a coin with the Caesar's image and the words "son of the Divine Augustus" would have been considered by many Jews of the day to be breaking Torah. We don't need to get into an argument about the difference between gods and demi-gods and the difference between Augustus and Tiberius for my argument to be a valid one.
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But you do because of the concessions Augustus made with Herod regarding Judea and judaism that were still in effect at that time. ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0002_0_01605.html). You also have to consider the pharisees, sadducees and other sects who also were permitted to function freely under Roman occupation. Remember also that the Render unto Caesar comment was directed to the pharisees and that Jesus was first tried by the Sanhedrin before being passed to Pilot, then to Herod, and then back to Pilot.
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What?
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dtguitarfan
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Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 15:04 |
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
A denarius bore a picture of Tiberius on the front with the inscription: "Caesar Augustus Tiberius, son of the Divine Augustus". This inscription indicated the divinity of Caesar - he was to be regarded as a god in the Roman culture of the empire cult. |
Nope. The divinity applied the his dead (step) father Augustus and was honoured posthumously by the senate, Tiberius was never deified even after his death and was never regarded as a god. The Jews didn't have a problem with Augustus as he treated them rather favourably, Tiberius was tolerated. The Revolt and subsequent wars came much later with Caligula. |
Have you ever heard of the Imperial Cult, Dean? I'm not just making stuff up....
|
Yes I've heard of the imperial cult - Augustus created it and it does not make the living Caesar a deity. The deifying of Augustus was an honorific bestowed after his death, Tiberius was not deified at all. This was a new Roman idea at the time and not in the traditional pantheon of Roman gods - however the tradition of deifying the venerable dead first established by Tiberius on his step-father endures in Rome to this day with the attributing of "divinity" to mortals on a regular basis - the last being a priest from Malta called George Preca (who died in 1962) in 2007 though many have been beatified since then (half-way to divinity). The Latin Divi also translates as Saint
|
You don't have to literally "make someone a living deity" in order to have idolatrous attitudes toward them. And people of all faiths know this intuitively - we're always talking about our idols, those being the things we are so dependent on that we feel like we can't do without them. And many of the practices that the Romans had insisted their conquered people do in order to show fealty would have been considered idolatrous by Jews. I am arguing that simply carrying a coin with the Caesar's image and the words "son of the Divine Augustus" would have been considered by many Jews of the day to be breaking Torah. We don't need to get into an argument about the difference between gods and demi-gods and the difference between Augustus and Tiberius for my argument to be a valid one.
|
But you do because of the concessions Augustus made with Herod regarding Judea and judaism that were still in effect at that time. ( http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0002_0_01605.html). You also have to consider the pharisees, sadducees and other sects who also were permitted to function freely under Roman occupation. Remember also that the Render unto Caesar comment was directed to the pharisees and that Jesus was first tried by the Sanhedrin before being passed to Pilot, then to Herod, and then back to Pilot. |
Ok, I think what you're doing is to equate one specific kind of Jew that was alive in Jesus' day with all Jews. In other words, if I were to start acting like all Christians believed the same things Catholics believed, someone might have a problem with that. Yes, the pharisees had arranged a relationship with the government of Rome and had relaxed many of the laws of Torah in order to do that, and they did all these things because they received power from this relationship. That's one of the things Jesus was fighting against.
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Dean
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Posted: October 24 2013 at 18:30 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Ok, I think what you're doing is to equate one specific kind of Jew that was alive in Jesus' day with all Jews. In other words, if I were to start acting like all Christians believed the same things Catholics believed, someone might have a problem with that. |
I'm pretty sure I'm not, but if that's how you see it then I've nothing further to contribute.
ciao.
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rushfan4
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Posted: November 21 2013 at 11:29 |
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Padraic
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Posted: December 09 2013 at 18:40 |
Today I was reminded that one of the greatest teachings of Christ was the power of forgiveness.
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The T
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Posted: December 09 2013 at 18:53 |
Costco plays their employees a living wage.
Guess what act should be more important for Christ?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 09 2013 at 21:04 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
The message
many would desire us to take from this teaching of Jesus was that we
should not concern ourselves with political things, but concentrate on
spiritual matters so we can "go to heaven" (which, by the way, is not a Biblical concept).
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Are you sure it's not a Biblical concept?
1.-
Luke 9:
28 Now about eight days after this had been said, he took with him Peter, John and James and went up the mountain to pray. 29 And it happened that, as he was praying, the aspect of his face was changed and his clothing became sparkling white. 30 And suddenly there were two men talking to him; they were Moses and Elijah 31 appearing in glory, and they were speaking of his passing which he was to accomplish in Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions were heavy with sleep, but they woke up and saw his glory and the two men standing with him.
33 As these were leaving him, Peter said to Jesus, 'Master, it is wonderful for us to be here; so let us make three shelters, one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.' He did not know what he was saying. |
If there's no heaven and death people are unconscious...How could Elijah and Moses be with Jesus?
2.-
Luke 23:39 One of the criminals hanging there abused him: 'Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us as well.' 40 But the other spoke up and rebuked him. 'Have you no fear of God at all?' he said. 'You/quote got the same sentence as he did, 41 but in our case we deserved it: we are paying for what we did. But this man has done nothing wrong.' 42 Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.'
43 He answered him, 'In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.' |
If I'm not wrong Christ himself promises the thief that the same day of hies death, they will be in paradise
3.-
Luke 16: 22 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels into Abraham's embrace. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 'In his torment in Hades he looked up and saw Abraham a long way off with Lazarus in his embrace. 24 So he cried out, "Father Abraham, pity me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in agony in these flames." 25 Abraham said, "My son, remember that during your life you had your fill of good things, just as Lazarus his fill of bad. Now he is being comforted here while you are in agony. 26 But that is not all: between us and you a great gulf has been fixed, to prevent those who want to cross from our side to yours or from your side to ours." 27 'So he said, "Father, I beg you then to send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 since I have five brothers, to give them warning so that they do not come to this place of torment too." 29 Abraham said, "They have Moses and the prophets, let them listen to them." 30 The rich man replied, "Ah no, father Abraham, but if someone comes to them from the dead, they will repent."
31 Then Abraham said to him, "If they will not listen either to Moses or to the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone should rise from the dead." |
So, the concept of Paradise is absolutely Biblical.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 13 2013 at 00:37
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Ambient Hurricanes
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Posted: December 09 2013 at 21:34 |
The T wrote:
Costco plays their employees a living wage.
Guess what act should be more important for Christ? |
Costco probably could have put the book under any of their genre headings and it would have described at least one literary genre that's in the Bible. Except, perhaps, for Teen Vampire Romance...
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Epignosis
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Posted: January 05 2014 at 21:57 |
Please pray for Shanna.
She has breast and brain cancer.
Edited by Epignosis - January 05 2014 at 21:58
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Ambient Hurricanes
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Posted: January 06 2014 at 08:06 |
Praying
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Finnforest
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Posted: January 06 2014 at 17:56 |
Robert, I'm assuming this must be a friend or rellie of yours....sorry to hear this news. I will pray my next rosary for her.
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Polymorphia
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Posted: January 06 2014 at 18:04 |
I'm sorry to hear that. Will be praying for her.
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Padraic
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Posted: January 06 2014 at 18:38 |
Unfortunately, we're dealing with the same thing (brain tumor) in my family.
She has our prayers.
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