The Christian Thread
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Topic: The Christian Thread
Posted By: Epignosis
Subject: The Christian Thread
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:14
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This morning I wanted to start a thread for Christians to discuss the Bible, their faith, and their struggles. This should be a place where we can pray for one another and encourage one another with scripture and testimony. From time to time, I'd like to expound upon a Bible passage (the Bible is a big interest of mine- the greatest piece of literature, a wonderful consolation to me in these times, and a limitless source of inspiration). Please come and share your favorite verses, your fears, your hopes, and anything else you feel the need to tell. Anyone is welcome, of course, but please check all vitriol or debate-seeking comments at the door. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Replies:
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:28
| I must say Psalm 119 is amazing. Takes 30 minutes to read it properly, but years to go through what it all means. It has become the basis of what I pray about, that I can have the same attitude as the writer. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:41
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I suppose I'd want to start with a biblical understanding of what "grace" and "faith" are, since they are important concepts to the Christian. First, faith is not "belief without proof;" the Greek word translated "faith" is pistis, and does not allow for such a definition. The Bible says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). The Greek word for grace is charis. People during biblical times understood faith in God in terms of patronage: For instance, if a farmer, whose family depended on the land, had a terrible harvest and ran the risk of starving to death, a wealthy patron might adopt that man as a client, supplying his needs (and perhaps more!). In return, the client (who could not repay the patron) boasts about the generosity (the grace) of the patron to other people (this relates to evangelism). The patron shows grace to the client by giving him something the client cannot pay back (and continually doing so). The client then has faith in (i.e., has trust in) the patron, who according to social conventions, would provide for the client as needed. I have faith in God because He has constantly proven Himself good to me throughout my life, even during what felt like the worst of situations. Like with good parents, children do not question whether or not they will eat or have clothing- they simply have faith (trust based on past care) that the parents will provide. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:48
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I myself am a Buddhist, but I find much inspiration from holy books of all cultures (I am particularly fond of The Dhammapada & The Tao Te Ching), & the Bible is no exception (though I sometimes find myself reading black where others read white). My favorite verse from The New Testament comes from Cap. 7, v. 3 of The Book of Mark:
Enter through the narrow gate because the gate and road that lead to destruction are wide.
I see a resemblance in this verse to the Buddha's own teaching of following the Middle Path.
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:52
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I just eliminated myself from this thread because I would just stir up unecessary s***.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:53
Thank you for your honest restraint. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Vibrationbaby wrote:Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:57
nice idea for a thread Robert.. I'll sit it out since I'm on a fast train to hell and loving the ride.... but I'll be watching for trolls.. as I'm sure we all will be. 
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 09:59
So you have a biglietto per l'inferno?  |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 10:02
Thanks Mick- I just figured with all the religious brouhaha in one particular thread that I thought was about a bus ...this little respite might be a good thing.------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 10:09
 A nice idea for a thread indeed. I'll watch it while I'm on the stairway to heaven.
If I have some interesting input, I won't withhold it.
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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 11:24
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Glad to see this thread, indeed. I recently came to the realization that I needed to get back to my Christian roots because the way I was running my life wasn't working well at all. Being an avid reader, it was brought to my attention that, although I'm familiar with a lot of verses and even took Bible courses in college, I've never read The Word from Genesis to Amen. I bought a TNIV version about 10 days ago and dove in. I'm enthralled, to say the least. I'm not as wise as I thought I was, that's for sure.
"Seek ye first the kingdom of God..." ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:15
Kudos for acknowledging that the bible was written in Greek (new testament) and of course don't forget Hebrew for the old. Some things did/do get lost in translation. For the record, I studied the bible as a teen (prophecy fascinated me the most) , I am not a member of any organized religion, but I firmly believe in doing to others as I would have others do to me. I do tend to lose respect for those who don't respect my beliefs or lack of. Having said that, best of luck with the thread. I may chime in from time to time with some gems from my studies.  |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:23
My "expertise" went it comes to the Bible is Ancient Near Eastern culture (and of course the language is part of it- Hebrew and Greek); years ago when I began studying the Bible in its cultural context (their society is so different from the modern American one), I began to see things in a much clearer light. Good to see you here, Slart- just keep your comics to yourself.   ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 12:29
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I promise no comics unless I come across a really good, tasteful, and appropriate one.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 13:15
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Oh well... I guess you have the right to create this.... Enjoy. You won't have no debate from me.
I guess this is safer... We'll have to create a proper atheist thread to discuss our views without christian (or religious) people dropping in.....
Yes... it's safer to divide ourselves.
Good luck. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 13:42
Rob expressed quite clearly what purpose this thread has, there was no word "debate" until the last line, which falls under restrictions. ------------- 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 14:02
The right? Well, I suppose it's no different than how Christians have a right to create churches, and atheists are certainly welcome to pop in any given Sunday. This thread was not a "spinoff" of the atheist bus debate (despite my joke above)- it was honestly something I had been mulling about for some time, and as I know there are a few Christians around here, and since I've been writing some pithy observations and studies on biblical passages, I thought it'd be nice to have this thread. I'd like to pray for fellow believers in their relationship with God, and I'd like to have the same done for me. And once again, anyone is welcome here.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 14:09
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Neat idea, Robert. I'll kick my legs back for now and see what happens.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 14:11
| I don't like sports but I don't feel excluded or divided by the sports threads. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 14:14
I feel scared of baseball threads...  -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 14:17
Funny you should mention that because baseball is the only sport I am remotely interested in and that may only be due to seeing Hank Aaron make his record in Atlanta as a kid. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 14:19
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I've been Catholic my entire life however I'm in a severe questioning phase right now. My faith in God hasn't changed, but currently I hold a negative opinion of him. Which perhaps is worse than atheism in His eyes. Nice to have a thread like this though. Will definitely be stopping in here. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 14:37
Nice having you- I've certainly been in your place a few times in my life (particularly around 19-20). While I certainly don't know the specifics in your life, I can tell you that those negative opinions passed with prayer, study, and surrounding myself with people who genuinely cared about me and my faith. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 15:26
I went through that myself which led to a break with the Catholic Church ... organized Religion and then God. As I got older I discovered God in my life again...but have never...will never believe in the notion of Organized Religion. My faith is my own.. don't need to share it.. nor be told what God wants of me.. if I stray... he'll sure enough tell me in his own way. I have no doubts as to that hahha. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 15:37
| I tend to be a soloist, to turn my back to organized religion, but despite this I go to church about 48 or 49 sundays in a year. Te call to be used as "living stones to build a spiritual house" (1 Peter 2:5) urges me to be an active member of a christian community. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 16:35
I find church attendance (or at least regular fellowship with other believers) highly important because of this: "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near." (Hebrews10:23-25) It is good for Christians to gather together in order to "provoke one another" to good works, and, when necessary (and always with love and gentleness!), help out when another Christian is struggling with sin or some other situation. I don't know where I'd be without the support and prayers of other Christians. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 17:06
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I was just recently accepted as a member of my church
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 17:11
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congrats Ben
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 17:16
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And since my dad is the reverend / pastor, the bible verse that is on my membership card begins "therefore, my son..."
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 17:21
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hahhahah.... that must have been quite a moment for him as well .. my father merely took pride in me when I first fired an M-16 and was able to chew Red Man without puking...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 17:26
| It was a real encouragement to the church, to see young people become members. I think I'm the 6th person under 30 to be brought into membership in the past year. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 17:27
, great stuffYeah, I'm a Christian myself (though I'm a bit of a weird sollipsist, individualist, philosophical type). I tend to disagree on all sorts of things with sensible types, but yeah, my faith helped me a lot at one point when I was genuinely a bit messed up, and it's a comfort more than a concern. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 17:31
in spite of my feelings about religion and church ..the one thing me and my ex-wife did agree upon was the need for the kids to be exposed.. raised if you will in the church. It is nice to see young people embrace the church... there are too many stories of people like me that had bad experiences and were turned completely off. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 17:46
| Oh, and, could I ask, any prayer for me would be appreciated... having some trouble with relationships at the moment and it's really messing up my feelings a bit. So, yeah. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 17:49
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consider it done Rob... and feel free to drop me a PM anytime... I am a hell of listener.... and occasionally have a nugget of wisdom I pull from my ass.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 18:38
That's one of the primary reasons I'm here in this thread- to pray for those who request it. Done deal. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 17 2009 at 18:41
Our church is very small, and has few people under 30. I am 25, and I play electric guitar with the pianist there- yep, just the two of us. But hey, you "non-going-to-church-types" - how would you like to hear prog in church?I have performed work from Neal Morse, Proto-Kaw, and myself in my church. It's cool!  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: March 18 2009 at 00:41
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I accepted Christ as my savior in January of 2000. I'm still a work-in-progress, however. Our Pastor made a good analogy this past Sunday that even after we've stepped out of our spiritual desert and walk into the land of milk and honey, there's still a piece of us that will go back and 'play in the sand'. I still find myself battling this every day. I'm far from a perfect Christian, and there's a lot that I need to do in order to fulfill my walk of faith. This will be a good thread to refer to from time-to-time. I just hope that those who don't follow the same beliefs continue to be respectful to the author and the spirit in which this thread was created. So far, I'm pleasantly surprised. We've been studying the book of Colossians the past month or so and it's very interesting so far. Our Pastor focused on Luke for about a half of a year, so he REALLY gets into it and dissects the scriptures. A passage that I found very uplifting can be found in Colossians 2:13-15: "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, #fen-NIV-29492a - God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." E #fen-NIV-29492a - ------------- 
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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: March 18 2009 at 07:33
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I've been attending services at a relatively small local church for about four weeks now (I only backslid for decades) and what I find necessary (to me) about church is that it reinforces my faith and reminds me of what is important. I don't always walk out feeling enlightened but just the act of going there and being in fellowship with other people is comforting and inspiring. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 18 2009 at 08:31
I love the african american church music...I jam it out every sunday - some of the best & funkiest stuff on the radio! I have to admit, I turn it off as soon as the preaching starts, but I give 'em props for retaining the ecstatic element of worship that I feel is such an integral & yet neglected aspect of religion...
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 18 2009 at 08:38
That's cool! There have been so many times when I've been tempted to play prog on the church organ, but I don't know how to play the songs. |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: March 18 2009 at 09:16
Our church is still growing. We have a relatively large number of young families but also older people.
I would like to hear some prog in church now and then, but that is just a personal preference, not a necessary element here. Some older people are annoyed when the guitarist plays in a hard-rock style.
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Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 18 2009 at 10:33
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My church is rather good about music. We have a youth music group that plays for the evening service occasionally and are introducing more modern songs to the congregation. We don't have a drum kit (yet) tho. Mostly because we need someone who can play it properly and the need to buy an electronic drum kit. The acoustics of the building won't agree with the acoustic drum kit I'm afraid. But we do have someone playing drums on a keyboard
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Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: March 18 2009 at 13:54
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Nice thread. For me the best discovery of 2008. was the Tindentine Rite masses in Budapest. The traditional lyturgy of our Catholic churc h has all the mystery, sacredness and beauty what I need (I really like the Greek lyturgy, too.), Gregorian chants and sacred polyphony wondefully serves the lyturgy. Good that,you dont need the "lefebrists" for a traditional mass anymore. Thanks to a wise decision of the Holy Father(Summorum Pontificium). From the Bible I am mainly a Gospel reader, I value St. John's Gospel the highest. |
Posted By: Drew
Date Posted: March 18 2009 at 13:59
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Cool thread I've been absent from church for a while now- but Io plan to return very soon. ------------- |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 18 2009 at 15:24
I personally find preachy christian vocal music to be annoying. Anything going on interesting that is just instrumental or is vocal christian music pretty much a prerequisite these days? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 12:46
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As I wrote earlier, I stayed away from the church for a very long time and when I started attending services for a short period (with the woman who later became my wife) about 8 or 9 years ago, we went to one of the huge mega-churches that could easily accommodate several thousand worshippers. The contemporary band and singers kinda threw me for a loop because I had been brought up with hymns and gospel music that was choir-driven and joined only by an organ. The church I go to now is much, much more intimate but they also have a combo w/singers and perform very current songs of praise. Some tunes are better than others but I miss the old standards that I was raised on. (I would really enjoy some Neal Morse but that ain't gonna happen, I guarantee!) In fact, I was chatting with the guitarist who seemed pretty hip but he had no idea who Morse was (although he did recognize Mike Portnoy when I added that he played drums for Neal's studio work.) Yet I understand that younger people want music and a presentation that they can relate to and, like the video screens in the sanctuary, this approach seems to put them at ease. I figure as long as it's well done then the progger in me can tolerate. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 12:49
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I don't know to be honest. My church does corporate worship, meaning we try to pick songs that have good lyrics (not just repeat the same thing over and over and over and over) that are relevant to the sermon, but also have a good tune, meaning we can all worship together and not just those with good musical skill, and also that the music accents the words correctly (stressing important words). I'm sure if you had a desire to make a Christian instrumental song it would be good, but I don't think it would have a good spot in a church service. Due to the desire to stress the lyrics and the meaning of the song a lot of the time we have old hymns because newer songs seem to be more about the sound of the music alone as opposed to the music helping convey the meaning of the lyrics. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 13:26
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I know many churches, particularly those with a wide generational span, have experienced "worship wars," those difficult times when people can't agree on what music is appropriate for church. Hymns? Too boring and traditional. Contemporary music? Too loud and irreverent. Many churches even resort to holding two services- one with one kind of music, and one with the other. All in all, I'd say such debate is dishonoring to God- why divide your congregation in order to please people? Is that what church is for, to please people? Note Romans 12:1- "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." God was never pleased with the offerings or sacrifices of Israel when they were entrenched in sin. In fact, he abhorred them. It's like if I beat my wife, keep her locked in a closet, and cheat on her, but then tell her I love her with all my heart- I make myself out to be a liar. Before uttering a word of praise or singing a song during the worship service, Christians should survey their hearts and make sure they are not continually displeasing God. Songs of praise and worship should be a reflection of what is truly in the heart, not used as a mask to hide our evil. That said, the type of music is irrelevant: Somewhere in Africa, Christians dance to a tribal rhythm and sing of God's gory. Somewhere in America, a rapper is spitting rhymes about God's goodness. Somewhere in England, headbangers are bobbing to heavy riffs and growls about God's mercy. And that's fine by me. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 16:25
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^Agreed. My dad said you would not believe how many people he had to have a talk to in our old church about what worship actually was, so much so that he did sermon series on it. Not many people listened though. |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 16:26
| Speaking of rappers, have you heard of Shai Linne? He has AWESOME lyrics. Seriously the best ones I have ever heard. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 16:34
I have not, and I do happen to like some rap music, so that will be something to check out. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 16:45
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Great thread. Good idea, Epignosis. |
Posted By: Moogtron III
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 16:47
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I'm a pastor myself, and the Bible is a great inspiration for me. Currently I'm leading a Bible study on the book of Revelation, which is pretty heavy stuff, but very interesting and appealing anyway. Our church is small but many people are really serious about their faith, which is really cool. Currently I'm in a national working group which wants to investigate how to let our churches really go along with the times which are a-changin'. Also I'm leading international christian youth camps where youth from Africa and Europe meet and study the Bible together and do social projects for people who live in the margin of society. We want to include the US as well, by the way. As for the musical wars: there's no war in our church, but we have the people who prefer traditional songs and people who like the modern stuff. With some church members we have a band now, also performing in church from time to time. I'm playing keys. Alas, no prog in this band (I do have an other group where I can play prog), but from time to time I'll play some intricaye chords on my keys, and one of my guitar players can play Shine On You Crazy Diamond perfectly. not during church service, obviously, although my oldest brother in his young days, playing in church, often put some Beatle melodies alongside the hymns |
Posted By: Diaby
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 16:53
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I'm member of the quite small Hungarian Lutheran church. Our congregation is very small, almost consists entirely of my family (that's a filia of a bigger congregation). However, I go every Friday to the youth club of the biggest church of the country, where I was christened and I did my confirmation three years ago.
We always have there lots of fun, it's great to have young people like me whom I can talk about God.
In fact, I still need stronger faith and have to obey more what He said to us...I hope the time I reach this isn't far away. ------------- yeah |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 16:57
Welcome! I remember the time my friends and I played "Comfortably Numb" at a church talent show once.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 16:58
You and me both! ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 19 2009 at 21:31
Not just generationally, acoustic guitars and tambourines set my teeth on edge. But contemporary praise music is part of a larger problem in my view of watering down Catholicism with Protestantism, and since I'm sure most of the people in this thread are Protestant...
From a theological standpoint, yes. But you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the discomfort of those who find contemporary music asinine--their ability to focus on God is important too.
Although at the moment I'm a pretty terrible Catholic so I guess I don't have much room to talk. ;-) ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 09:13
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In my opinion the lyturgy should rather stay with ones like Palestrina and Lassus, for other occassions, even inside the church building there is nothing wrong with contemporary music. Actually I'm very fond of listening gregorian and lyturgical music by great classical composers also at home. Modern praising music is not so much my bag, but I understand that it may mean many things for others. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 09:26
I actually don't dismiss people's discomfort regarding certain forms of music, but I do acknowledge it as a secondary matter compared to a worshipful heart. I mean, if we had traditional praise songs in the strictest sense, we would be singing in ancient Hebrew, and playing ancient Near Eastern instruments, which I suspect would make most of us today cringe (unless you are a Samla Mammas Manna fan ).------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 09:33
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"musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." - Augustine The lute/guitar was also frowned upon because of its association with Apollo, the Greek God of the sun, music, & poetry...at the time the christian religion was formulated, it developed alongside the cult of Apollo (Constantine was an Apollonian). Apollonians used music as a direct connection to God through ecstacy. In it's early stages, the church comdemned the use of music during worship, but eventually allowed for choral & chant arrangements...later the organ was introduced & from there other instruments were allowed to creep in.
I think music absolutely belongs in worship regardless of the religion...few things have the ability to make me feel so alive & greatful for it!
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 09:45
For the most part, Augustine's quote is true (from my research), but also because early Christians avoided certain scales / modes, which were thought to impart certain spiritual feelings. But what I referred to in my previous post was that ancient Hebrews did use a variety of instruments in their ceremonies, national victories, and in praising God (recall that David was a harpist). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 09:55
Indeed, the Jews had no problem pairing music with worship, but comparing christianity to ancient judaism is a bit of a streatch, don't you think? ...I mean, we're talking about a religion that was formulated in 100 CE & one formulated in 1900 BCE (that's like comparing the time Jesus supposedly lived with today)... & ancient judaism wasn't a form of early christianity...
...not an attempt to disrupt the thread, I just think it is disrespectful to jews & christians alike to not look at their religious practices on the grounds that they actually exist/ed.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:02
As a Christian, I count the Tanakh (the Old Testament) on equal footing as the New Testament- these two collections make up the Bible. Regarding the embolden statement above, I would agree to that, but only superficially- In the book of Romans, Paul describes how ancient Judaism was a preparation, as it were, for Christ. The author of the book of Hebrews makes similar arguments. That said, I believe Abraham (though he lived before Christ died and rose again) was saved by grace through faith (just as I am). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:08
Romans & Hebrews are both documents from the new testament. Those are words written by a christian, not a jew. You'll never find a reference in the tanakh to the judaic religion being simply the groundwork for christianity ...I'm not sure how many practicing jews there are on this forum, but I guarentee they would find that insulting.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:22
Yes- Romans and Hebrews are Christian documents that see the Old Testament as a preparation for Christ. If a Jew is offended, then they must be offended by Christianity itself: That is a standard Christian belief, that Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies and typologies. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:23
| Have to ask this. Is anyone here familiar with the Residents' Wormwood? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:26
Somewhat, yes. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:31
not true. It is offensive because it undermines judaism.
I was raised jewish. I am offended, & it is not by "Christianity itself".
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:36
Look- it's a tenet of most major religions (either an explicit or implicit one) that other religions are not true. An atheist believes there is no God, therefore Christianity is wrong. Do I take offense because an atheist's belief "undermines Christianity?" No. Other people's beliefs do not offend me. Please don't speak on behalf of Jews (saying my belief is offensive to Jews) because you are not a Jew (by your own admission, you are Buddhist). But this is a unique case- I believe Judaism is historically and theologically true, but that it is all fulfilled in Christ. That's basic Christianity 101. I won't apologize for that. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:38
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Regarding your edit- since I posted before I saw your edit: What are you offended with? Me for believing that Christianity is the ultimate fulfillment of Judaism, or Christianity itself, which teaches that Christianity is the ultimate fulfillment of Judaism? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:43
a just synopsis of the major problem with most religions
Just because I'm not a practicing jew doesn't make my blood any less jewish... you are still undermining the cultural religion of my people in favor of one that is spurious of it & 2000 years younger.
I didn't raise a question to your beliefs, I raised a question to your blatant mistreatment of another religion in a public forum.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:50
You are calling my religion problematic because it offends you. Sorry- you being offended doesn't change my religion. Even Christ taught that people will be offended by him (see John chapter 6). And I'm not "mistreating" Judaism- I'm reciting a fundamental tenet of traditional Christianity, which embraces Judaism (Romans chapters 9-11). If you wish to open a Buddhist thread (or born Jewish thread or what have you), feel free- I will not bother you or call Buddhism "a mistreatment of another religion in a public forum" simply because of your belief that Christianity is flawed. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:56
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I don't want to overstep my bounds here but perhaps this is an argument best carried on through personal messages. I don't think this thread was intended to provoke.
On a lighter note, I'm pleased to see (from some of the comments) that Christianity is still breathing and being practiced in Europe. One of my best friends is married to a girl from Holland and she tells me that the church is struggling to stay alive there. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Captain Capricorn
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:56
...you didn't read a word I said, did you?
Christianity doesn't offend me - uneducated christians offend me.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 10:59
So now you're calling me uneducated. That's inflammatory, and I ask you please leave this thread if you don't mind. It's not meant to be a place for debate between different religions anyway. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 11:01
No, this argument is best not being carried out at all. Anyway, I've not been to Europe, but I've read some about Christianity's decline there. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Ricochet
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 11:01
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How about we do most of the above page somewhere else. Debates were not part of this thread's initial purpose.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 11:06
Initially, I was explaining Christianity's relationship to Judaism (as I understand it). But since clarification turned into argument, I invited the other member to open a different thread and dropped the issue. Then I was called uneducated. But that's fine. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 12:18
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Sorry to see this thread degenerate into a religious argument thread, they tend to generate more heat than light, eh? Back to Wormwood and would love to see this thread go into a more music/Christianity area than a religious debate thread. To say you are "somewhat" familiar with album is to probably say you don't know much, and yours is no disgrace for that to be sure. The Residents aren't a group that most people who consider themselves devout Christians would take any interest in at all (feel free for anyone out there to correct me on that point). Wormwood, subtitled Curious Stories From The Bible, isn't intended to take pot shots at or denigrate Christianity, but simply to point out some parts of the Bible that are really weird (typical of the Residents) and often overlooked by the mainstream of the religion. Rest assured these aren't tunes you will ever to be likely to hear played in any Christian church. I reviewed this one and Rick Wakeman's In The Beginning at the same time. Wakeman's music on that one is more along the lines of something that most Christian churches would be more than accepting of having played in. By the way, I am also curious if anyone is familiar with In The Beginning and what you think of that album... And how about getting into Kansas use of Christian themes in their lyrics? Here's some from Wormwood: Cain and Abel Genesis 4 "Blood drowns the ground Blood drowns the ground Yes, blood drowns the ground, 'cause You didn't need me The wind blew his hair as I looked up to see The shadows of birds as they flew over me Standing in silence, I watched how the blood Turned into a puddle of crimson and mud Like the dirt by the river my brother was cold But the sunset was scarlet and purple and gold I needed you I needed you Yes, I needed you, but You didn't need me Now I must wander away ..." Bridegroom of Blood Exodus 4:24-26 "...I'm t-tired and d-dirty and old L-like m-mildew covered with m-mold S-something is shining at m-me L-L-like a l-ight nobody c-c-can ss-ee M-My heart is t-turning t-to stone Inside a s-sack f-full of b-bones S-Something is sh-sh-shining at m-me... N-No! Not m-m-me! N-No! N-n-not m-m-me! A t-tree s-surrounded b-by f-flame C-Called to m-me by b-my name And m-made m-me promise to lead The n-needy out of their n-need Our little baby He's c-c-crying Our little baby He's c-c-crying Our little baby He's c-c-crying A lonely lingering bark Awakened me in the dark And as i silently stared A figure formed in the air With teeth intending to eat My husband who was asleep He was tiny and weak With eyes so tender and sweat And as he laid in my arms So safe from hunger and harm I took the edge of a rock And sliced the skin from his c..." Burn Baby Burn Judges 11:31-40 "I'm gonna die with no tears in my eyes 'cause God digs my Daddy! I'm gonna die with no tears in my eyes 'cause God digs my Daddy! God digs my Daddy! God digs my Daddy! His enemies died when he lifted his knife and said Please let me win and I'll send you a life So soon I will be burning for my, Soon I will be burning for my Daddy I'm ready to die but it seems to be odd That bleeding is better than breathing to God But soon I will be burning for my, Soon I will be burning for my Daddy God digs my Daddy!..." Apologies in advance if those offended anyone. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 12:44
This thread hasn't gone that way Slart- promise. The Captain and I are cool. Regarding this: "but simply to point out some parts of the Bible that are really weird" I'd just be quick to point out that most of the stuff (not absolutely everything to be sure) in the Bible was fairly normal by cultural standards. Even modern day middle Easterners do many things that us Westerners would be "Really weird" (and likewise, of course).I have heard "Burn Baby Burn," for instance- really weird song (creepy, really), but I have written an essay on how Jephthah didn't actually give his daughter as a burnt sacrifice (did he seriously think something other than a person would come out of the house? I believe he expected a male servant to come out first). Anyway- that's another subject, but a fun one to discuss. As to Kansas...there are no Christian lyrics until you get to Audio-Visions, and by then, most Kansas fans don't care, sadly. Livgren's Christian lyrics appear mainly on his solo works, but his best words are in Proto-Kaw and the Kansas album, Somewhere to Elsewhere. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 12:52
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Hello? Miracles Out Of Nowhere, Sparks Of The Tempest? Maybe not overtly Christian... C'mon, I bet you can come up with some other songs. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:04
Not so- "Miracles Out of Nowhere" has lyrics about Livgren's spiritual wandering, and "Sparks of the Tempest" has lyrics inspired by Orwell's 1984. This information comes from Livgren's autobiography, by the way. Livgren didn't convert to Christianity until 1979; incidentally, the only song that may have a traditional Christian message is "The Devil Game," which Livgren didn't even write. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:23
I'd be willing to say that 5% of England is actually practicing Christian and not just saying they're Christian. Really annoying... |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:26
I agree, but if they start saying stuff about "my" worship, then they have a wrong attitude towards church! Because church is a meeting together of people and worship is done corporately. Also there is a couple in our church who go only because we don't have an acoustic drum kit. Not that they think drums are evil, its just in the last church they were in the buildings acoustics didn't lend itself to drums and so the wife was actually pained by the sound of the drums. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:26
I've grown up in "The Bible Belt" of the US, where a large percentage of people attended church at least. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:30
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^Attending churches doesn't mean anything unfortunately. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:31
Precisely why I said "attending church."  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:32
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Sadly enough, one of my friends was reading a Christian newspaper and someone asked him what church he went to. When he said the church I go to, the person replied, "Oh the church that preaches the gospel every Sunday". We shouldn't be distinct because of this |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:34
| I'm very impressed with this thread so far, a lot of good could come from this. I might have some things to say of a personal nature later on, but the bottom line is I've struggled mightily trying to be a person of faith - it's a minor internal turmoil that very few know about, actually. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:42
Pat-Man! Missed you buddy, and I'll be praying for you (and of course your boys). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:51
| Thanks Rob - well I'm still not around too much but I will say this - do you find John 3:16 (a powerful passage despite being an unfortunate cliche) resonates more now that you are a father? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:54
It's become a much more harrowing verse to me. When my feeble mind attempts to imagine me being in the shoes of God the Father, I tremble... ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:55
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As somebody born and bred in Europe, I have to say that the figures for Italy are higher than in other parts of the continent (I'm talking about western Europe at least) as regards religious practice. However, to be perfectly honest, though most people call themselves Catholics, it has mostly to do with keeping up appearances (like having your children baptised, or getting married in church) than with real faith. Personally, though I was raised as a Catholic, and attended church regularly at least until the age of 21, I now consider myself an agnostic, and my view of the Catholic Church and its role is extremely critical. However, I don't like people who insult those who are religious and call them brainwashed (unless, of course, we are really talking about fanatics), and I have often reported posts of people who overstepped the mark in this sense. |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 13:59
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Some Christians might have objections to satirical slants on God and consider them blasphemous but I find material like Tull's "Oh, God" or "Passion Play" (as well as Randy Newman's "God's Song" and the majority of his take on "Faust") to be relevant because they poke fun of how mankind pictures the Almighty as having the same emotions, feelings and hangups as we have. Fact is, we were created in His image, not the other way around. Not sure what I'm trying to say here except that songs like those mentioned can be instructive in pointing out our tendency to view God as a big guy in a robe sitting on a throne in the clouds. He's obviously much, much more than that. Any thoughts? ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: progismylife
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 20:34
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I have something I'd like prayer about: Some of the other youth in my church. The way they act / talk / stuff they go to and call good is a bit scary and I'm thinking its leading them down a road that isn't good. I hope I'm wrong, but its just bugging me. Also they don't see the amazing stuff I see in sermons and this concerns me. |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: March 20 2009 at 22:32
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Sorry if I'm going off-topic, but I really don't want to start another thread, unless you, Robert, want me to do so... What do you think of people of "believing more" after watching the Passion of(the?) Christ? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:00
Satire is an ingenious way to get one's point across, to be sure. The Bible even contains some. It's sad, however, that there's so much about Christianity to lampoon. Christians should be thirsty for discovering the many nuggets of truth in the Bible, and yet many of them are content to just judge others (to make themselves feel better), view God as a cosmic Santa Claus (who will give them what they want), or use Christianity as a way of "covering their bases" (a "just in case it happens to be right" religion). Sad really, and until we clean up our act, we give lyrical masters like Anderson and other such people reason to satirize us. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:04
Would you mind elaborating a bit (certainly okay if you don't)? As for sermons, I wouldn't sweat that at all. God brings believers closer to maturity at different rates. If you're a more mature Christian (and it sounds like you very well may be), then of course that's nothing to brag about (because it's God's work in you), and you should be excited that He has placed in a place of leadership, and you will be able to work with your peers, set a solid example, and be a mentor. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 21 2009 at 07:06
I think it's wonderful. There's so much in the world aimed at tearing down the believer's faith, that I welcome anything that builds it up. As to the movie itself, I saw it and intend to purchase it at some point. I found watching it in the theater as a draining but immensely touching experience. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |