King Crimson!

Fox On The Rocks wrote: Does anybody know if there is any live recordings of One More Red Nightmare out there?

TODDLER wrote: Fox On The Rocks wrote: Does anybody know if there is any live recordings of One More Red Nightmare out there?   I honestly don't believe there is. That unfortunately doesn't mean a lot. Fripp could have very well used this hook in "One More Red Nightmare" during a live improvisation mode. On Steve Wilson's re-mix of Islands there isabonus track titled ""A Peacemaking Stint Unrolls" which was  arranged into a instrumental piece to be rehearsed and possibly played live by the Islands band. The hooks in the piece were later used for "Lament" and "Larks Tongues In Aspic Part I" and possibly the same course of events took place during the development of the hook and time signatures for "One More Red Nightmare"except this time the ideas were being played live or rehearsed by the 74' band. Many of the ideas for songs came from lines he experimented with during live improvisation type jams.

Interesting . I knew KC got heavily into the whole group improvisational jamming, so I can see where all these ideas were coming from then. It's a shame though that there is no live recording known of OMRN. I love that song, especially the Sax solos and Bruford's drumming.

Hi,

Edited by moshkito - February 07 2012 at 14:01

moshkito wrote: Hi,   I think of all their albums, only the first one really is important and meaningful ... because unlike the other albums, the first one was a seriously loud voce for a whole generation ... and that is the part that is being taken away from the album ... and is instead being called "progressive" ... any new voice is always different and this one was important. We are not allowed to see that, specially here.   And I agree with SD that the next album was almost a copy ... and that was more of a record company thing at the time, than it was anything else ... it was even forced on Pink Floyd after the massive success of TDSOTM, and what they were to release next was not, and WYWH came out. None of us are complaining however, because it was PF and the focus and direction was still strong and good ... but the bootlegs were showing a different direction that I bet they were not to follow yet ... and WYWH never sold one quarter of the other album did! KC has had the same issue ... I don't think any of their albums ever sold more than the 1st!   Because the 1st one was important ... the others were not as much.

No argument from me about how important the début was and ditto for the pale imitation that was the follow up. However, before you get too carried away with me actually agreeing with you Mosh I have to say that the leap the band made as represented by Larks Tongues in Aspic was every bit as influential and far reaching as the début (albeit the Prog Zeitgeist had lost much of it's momentum in the interim) That little trilogy of Larks, Starless and Red for me, prefaced and intuited many of the contemporary developments that we enjoy now as fully fledged sub genres e.g. Math/Post Rock, Prog Metal and (at a pinch) Progressive Electronic. Those aforementioned albums were also for me pivotal in some aspects of post-punk and (gulp) grunge. For all intents and purposes any adventurous band after say, 1979 deploying guitars who claim NOT to be influenced by the innovations coined by Crimson are plain vanilla fibbing.

First album was the most important because it launched, not exactly the genre as people sometimes claim, but one kind of prog that has remained popular and 'classic'.  I am not going to get into other examples of prog constructed in somewhat different ways that predated KC here because this is not a "which is the first prog album" thread.

But meaningful?  What exactly does meaningful mean here anyway?  I would argue most of KC's work is too abstract to be meaningful in a social sense, with no disrespect meant to their work which I love so much.  Fripp doesn't generally write lyrics and whoever wrote the lines on his (the band's) compositions couldn't come up with stuff like "Every year's getting shorter/never seem to find the time".    And in terms of what the albums mean to me personally, I do find the Red album much more enthralling and engaging in so many ways.  ITCOTCK is all very orderly and symmetrical but doesn't have much of the phenomenal tension and intensity of Red. 

I know you, mosh, like to talk about how the emotional side of prog gets sidestepped and I'd submit that Red was a very important document in that light because it showed a way in which prog rock could also be ugly in a beautiful way, if that makes sense.  It brought much needed darker shades, violence and suspense to what was then a heavily keyboard oriented genre.  Some of these developments were already explored on the previous two albums but Red was more 'composed' and a sort of culmination of the efforts of that lineup.

TODDLER wrote: Back in 74' when I bought Starless and Bible Black there was no information printed on the album cover to explain that tracks like "Starless and Bible Black" and "Fracture" were actual recordings from the Amsterdam concert in 73'. I had the Amsterdam show on cassette which I had recorded direct off the radio on the "King Biscuit Flower Hour". There was an announcer introducing the songs and further explaining the concept of "Starless and Bible Black". When I picked up the cd "Nightwatch" in the late 90's....and heard the original live versions... I had an interesting time listening to pieces I had thought were recorded in the studio 20 years earlier.   The album Septober Energy by Centipede had this certain musical aspect to it. Sections of it build up like the pieces on Lizard and using the same instruments as well. A very strange period for Crimson. I believe Fripp was producing Septober Energy while Sinfield worked on the cover for Lizard. I disliked Pete Sinfield's Still and I thought McDonald and Giles was a bit too hokey in sections. My favorite period of Michael Giles was when he played drums on "Nightmare" by Anthony Phillips. I thought the piece "Breathless" from Exposure was more interesting than Red. I liked the Jamie Muir period and the live concert from the "Beat Club" is very unique.

Did they mix the live recordings of the Starless And Bible Black tracks in the studio? The sound quality sounds way too polished and refined for it to be a live recording.

TODDLER wrote: Fox On The Rocks wrote: TODDLER wrote: Back in 74' when I bought Starless and Bible Black there was no information printed on the album cover to explain that tracks like "Starless and Bible Black" and "Fracture" were actual recordings from the Amsterdam concert in 73'. I had the Amsterdam show on cassette which I had recorded direct off the radio on the "King Biscuit Flower Hour". There was an announcer introducing the songs and further explaining the concept of "Starless and Bible Black". When I picked up the cd "Nightwatch" in the late 90's....and heard the original live versions... I had an interesting time listening to pieces I had thought were recorded in the studio 20 years earlier.   The album Septober Energy by Centipede had this certain musical aspect to it. Sections of it build up like the pieces on Lizard and using the same instruments as well. A very strange period for Crimson. I believe Fripp was producing Septober Energy while Sinfield worked on the cover for Lizard. I disliked Pete Sinfield's Still and I thought McDonald and Giles was a bit too hokey in sections. My favorite period of Michael Giles was when he played drums on "Nightmare" by Anthony Phillips. I thought the piece "Breathless" from Exposure was more interesting than Red. I liked the Jamie Muir period and the live concert from the "Beat Club" is very unique.   Did they mix the live recordings of the Starless And Bible Black tracks in the studio? The sound quality sounds way too polished and refined for it to be a live recording.   The audience was mixed out...although the audience was quite quiet during the performance anyway so the focus mainly on mixing out any cheering and clapping at the intro or ending of tracks was the course of action.. They overdubbed instruments for the tracks, but not many. Not nearly enough for the original identity of the performance to be lost. The 2 tracks are "Starless and Bible Black" and "Fracture". Guitarists in the past had commented to me how Fripp could never pull off the solo in the center section of the piece during a live performance to the level he obtained in the studio recording. They used to assume that until "Nightwatch" the Amsterdam show was released and the realization that it was live after all. The only problem with the Amsterdam show is that they butcher "The Night Watch" which I never liked the song, but the mellotron drops out and there are flaws such as a mis-counting between Fripp and Wetton while Bruford attempts to catch up and repair that minor train wreck.

Wow! I love Fracture. One of my favourite King Crimson tunes! This Amsterdam show you speak of, is it a live rercording or live video footage?

TODDLER wrote: Fox On The Rocks wrote: TODDLER wrote: Fox On The Rocks wrote: TODDLER wrote: Back in 74' when I bought Starless and Bible Black there was no information printed on the album cover to explain that tracks like "Starless and Bible Black" and "Fracture" were actual recordings from the Amsterdam concert in 73'. I had the Amsterdam show on cassette which I had recorded direct off the radio on the "King Biscuit Flower Hour". There was an announcer introducing the songs and further explaining the concept of "Starless and Bible Black". When I picked up the cd "Nightwatch" in the late 90's....and heard the original live versions... I had an interesting time listening to pieces I had thought were recorded in the studio 20 years earlier.   The album Septober Energy by Centipede had this certain musical aspect to it. Sections of it build up like the pieces on Lizard and using the same instruments as well. A very strange period for Crimson. I believe Fripp was producing Septober Energy while Sinfield worked on the cover for Lizard. I disliked Pete Sinfield's Still and I thought McDonald and Giles was a bit too hokey in sections. My favorite period of Michael Giles was when he played drums on "Nightmare" by Anthony Phillips. I thought the piece "Breathless" from Exposure was more interesting than Red. I liked the Jamie Muir period and the live concert from the "Beat Club" is very unique.   Did they mix the live recordings of the Starless And Bible Black tracks in the studio? The sound quality sounds way too polished and refined for it to be a live recording.   The audience was mixed out...although the audience was quite quiet during the performance anyway so the focus mainly on mixing out any cheering and clapping at the intro or ending of tracks was the course of action.. They overdubbed instruments for the tracks, but not many. Not nearly enough for the original identity of the performance to be lost. The 2 tracks are "Starless and Bible Black" and "Fracture". Guitarists in the past had commented to me how Fripp could never pull off the solo in the center section of the piece during a live performance to the level he obtained in the studio recording. They used to assume that until "Nightwatch" the Amsterdam show was released and the realization that it was live after all. The only problem with the Amsterdam show is that they butcher "The Night Watch" which I never liked the song, but the mellotron drops out and there are flaws such as a mis-counting between Fripp and Wetton while Bruford attempts to catch up and repair that minor train wreck.    Wow! I love Fracture. One of my favourite King Crimson tunes! This Amsterdam show you speak of, is it a live rercording or live video footage?   This I believe comes right out of Fripp's personal vault. No video footage so far. Unless some roadie or sound tech bootleg it on the black market. I doubt it though because Fripp stays in touch with the circulation of his music. Once he heard a story about a certain individual who owned a copy of the "Kitchen Tape" and he traveled to Texas, hunted him down and persuaded him to hand it over. Fripp has an extensive catalog of live K.C. recordings in his posession and has released a great deal of it through the King Crimson Collector's Club. Also much of the more acessible releases like The Great Deceiver box set and other live recordings.

That goes to show how passionate Fripp is about his music! Also, on the topic of live recordings, is there any live footage of KC in the 70's? Rather than the obvious ones, Beat Club, Melody French TV, that one minute clip at Hyde Park, etc. I know there is tons of 80's footage with Belew and Levin. Those are the only ones I can find on youtube. If there isn't anymore 70's footage, other than the ones mentioned, do you know of any news that a new dvd is coming out?

Right, I forgot about the live version of Easy Money in Central Park, 1974. Whats the song they perform after Easy Money? Is it Talking Drum or was it a group improvisation. It sure sounds like Talking Drum because of the distinct, jagged guitar melody/solo at the end and the the whole build up. 

Fox On The Rocks wrote: Right, I forgot about the live version of Easy Money in Central Park, 1974. Whats the song they perform after Easy Money? Is it Talking Drum or was it a group improvisation. It sure sounds like Talking Drum because of the distinct, jagged guitar melody/solo at the end and the the whole build up.