The title track and 21st Schizoid are great, Moonchild has grown on me, then Epitaph and Talk to the Wind are okay. It's a strong 4* album. By no means their best album or the best album of the eclectic genre.

Though i understand it's importance to music, i don't really think that influence should be considered for the quality of the music, or in this case - the rating of an album.

Horizons wrote: I enjoy all the tracks too, none of them are really "bad". But to be reigned as the best from the band or genre, i can't agree or understand.

It had to be said! 

but seriously, my faves are ItCotCK, LTiA, Red, Discipline, ToaPP, THRAK, TCoL, and TPtB.

Thank you. 

 

I've never really got on with their stuff from the 1990s onwards, but I guess you can't expect every reinvention of the band's sound to come up with five-star material and KC have had a better batting average than many,

My personal favourite remains Red, with Starless easily in my top ten tracks of all time. Goodness knows what that lineup would have achieved if Fripp hadn't got the hump.

I think Beat and LTiA are their best albums. The Power to Believe had a couple of good ideas here and there but was put together in a horrible way.

If i did not think like that, most KC albums would reduce other artists albums with 1-2 stars  

 

To put it simple, that are in a league of its own. Unbelivable great albums !

 

 

I prefer Islands and Lizard to their first two albums. 

Me three

I was being ironic.

 

Fripp wrote pieces that were reminiscent of each other. He has been asked to explain the detail of this style for creating music during interviews. Many scholars don't seem to "get him" and they will take off on a path with an analogy , which in point Fripp just spends most of the interview correcting them. In the early days he was a little damaged when McDonald and Giles decided to leave the band. Ian McDonald who had written the most important material on In The Court of the Crimson King was part of the chemistry within the band. His writings briefly surfaced on "I.T.W.O.P. which left Fripp with the job of writing his own album. Lizard was a great effort and attempting to compose the album alone, bringing in the musicians, etc..but Ian McDonald is the magic missing from the later releases. If you were to observe that alone you can see that he was a different type of writer than Fripp and that may have been what was missing from the early sound of the band. What you heard on Lizard and Islands that sounded reminiscent of I.T.C.O.T.C.K. and I.T.W.O.P, was clearly Fripp attempting to keep Crimson's identity.

 

Fripp studied with a Jazz guitarist/instructor and my theory is that Fripp was interested in Sci-Fi/Horror themes in the 50's and 60's during his development of guitar playing. You could hear these reflections on the first 4 Crimson releases where he plays an open string while picking other strings he is fingering. Very "Twilight Zone" and with Larks and Starless he truly becomes schizoid with it. He is a very schooled guitar player and his hands seem to just fall into place naturally. He is very devoted.  

Larks-A mixture of nice slow tracks, good riffs and album filler. Experimental but not overly strong in composition. I only like Wettons voice in slow tracks. Good album but without Sinfield, the keys and composition are lacking. Fairly good 7.5/10

Red-an improved version of Larks with more structure and grunt. Pretty good 8/10

Starless-Sounds like an album of experimental outtakes. Nothing special apart from Nightwatchman mainly. 7/10

 

Except it was entirely "reused" in their subsequent album.

 

Me too. It makes the band really interesting. I also like their evolution through time. They adapted their sound to every era. I really like The Power to Believe and I consider it as good as In the Court of the Crimson King and Red.

 

I honestly don't believe there is. That unfortunately doesn't mean a lot. Fripp could have very well used this hook in "One More Red Nightmare" during a live improvisation mode. On Steve Wilson's re-mix of Islands there isabonus track titled ""A Peacemaking Stint Unrolls" which was  arranged into a instrumental piece to be rehearsed and possibly played live by the Islands band. The hooks in the piece were later used for "Lament" and "Larks Tongues In Aspic Part I" and possibly the same course of events took place during the development of the hook and time signatures for "One More Red Nightmare"except this time the ideas were being played live or rehearsed by the 74' band. Many of the ideas for songs came from lines he experimented with during live improvisation type jams.

 

 

The album Septober Energy by Centipede had this certain musical aspect to it. Sections of it build up like the pieces on Lizard and using the same instruments as well. A very strange period for Crimson. I believe Fripp was producing Septober Energy while Sinfield worked on the cover for Lizard. I disliked Pete Sinfield's Still and I thought McDonald and Giles was a bit too hokey in sections. My favorite period of Michael Giles was when he played drums on "Nightmare" by Anthony Phillips. I thought the piece "Breathless" from Exposure was more interesting than Red. I liked the Jamie Muir period and the live concert from the "Beat Club" is very unique.  

 

I think of all their albums, only the first one really is important and meaningful ... because unlike the other albums, the first one was a seriously loud voce for a whole generation ... and that is the part that is being taken away from the album ... and is instead being called "progressive" ... any new voice is always different and this one was important. We are not allowed to see that, specially here.

 

And I agree with SD that the next album was almost a copy ... and that was more of a record company thing at the time, than it was anything else ... it was even forced on Pink Floyd after the massive success of TDSOTM, and what they were to release next was not, and WYWH came out. None of us are complaining however, because it was PF and the focus and direction was still strong and good ... but the bootlegs were showing a different direction that I bet they were not to follow yet ... and WYWH never sold one quarter of the other album did! KC has had the same issue ... I don't think any of their albums ever sold more than the 1st!

 

Because the 1st one was important ... the others were not as much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BObP4kmKrXw&context=C3a7037dADOEgsToPDskJgDPUfxBL-isryoKmFGFeA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BObP4kmKrXw&context=C3a7037dADOEgsToPDskJgDPUfxBL-isryoKmFGFeA

 

The audience was mixed out...although the audience was quite quiet during the performance anyway so the focus mainly on mixing out any cheering and clapping at the intro or ending of tracks was the course of action.. They overdubbed instruments for the tracks, but not many. Not nearly enough for the original identity of the performance to be lost. The 2 tracks are "Starless and Bible Black" and "Fracture". Guitarists in the past had commented to me how Fripp could never pull off the solo in the center section of the piece during a live performance to the level he obtained in the studio recording. They used to assume that until "Nightwatch" the Amsterdam show was released and the realization that it was live after all. The only problem with the Amsterdam show is that they butcher "The Night Watch" which I never liked the song, but the mellotron drops out and there are flaws such as a mis-counting between Fripp and Wetton while Bruford attempts to catch up and repair that minor train wreck.   

 

This I believe comes right out of Fripp's personal vault. No video footage so far. Unless some roadie or sound tech bootleg it on the black market. I doubt it though because Fripp stays in touch with the circulation of his music. Once he heard a story about a certain individual who owned a copy of the "Kitchen Tape" and he traveled to Texas, hunted him down and persuaded him to hand it over. Fripp has an extensive catalog of live K.C. recordings in his posession and has released a great deal of it through the King Crimson Collector's Club. Also much of the more acessible releases like The Great Deceiver box set and other live recordings.

 

I don't know of any live video footage except for what you've mentioned. I saw a bootleg film of the band in Central Park 1974. Not very worthy. The "Beat Club" film is a distorted view because someone thought it would be cool to use those typical shaded psych colors which was the "In thing" at the time. The paint blocks your view of the performance...just as it does in ELP'S Pictures at an Exhibition. It's a shame that Crimson do not have a quality film like ELP in Belgium. .

 

 

 

At one time...I owned all the live cd's from the 73'/74 band which were readily available from the "King Crimson's Collector's Club". Then I had about 10 bootleg audience recordings and a friend who played me recordings of yet other more fine sounding live recordings from the soundboard. He was a roadie for the Yardbirds (for a short time), and many other bands of the 60's. He was also a sound tech. He lives in a historical town and wishes not to be contacted by anyone. I visited him a few times in his music room which appears like a museum of live recordings dating from the 60's through the 70's. These are the types of individuals that should be releasing archives. He won't become involved because he is so screwed up from the music business and his main course of life is to remain inside his home. Obviously ...this is something for us all to consider. Roadies and sound techs from the 60's and 70's owning live recordings of our favorite bands that we may never live to hear.

The Crimson live material became a constant repeat in themes for me. It wasn't rewarding to own that many recordings. Fripp composed around tritones and developed a darkscape while the other members added their own ideas. Bruford had the most independence of anyone in that band. He could make a train wreck sound good or he could play around something sloppy and give the listener the impression that it was meant to sound that way. or extremely intentional. In that sense he was years ahead of many other professional musicians in his time.

 

My brother owns a dvd of this and I will have to contact him because I'm not sure if it has been officially released. It may have been originally filmed for television. It's a black and white film and it mostly features Emerson sitting down at the piano with the 3 of them running through "Take a Pebble", "Piano Improvisiations", and a few actual jazz pieces. It was about 40 minutes long and a worthwhile archive of the past.

Anyway, I've got seriously into prog just recently (or at least I think so, as almost every album I purchased last year was more or less prog) and now decided to make my first post here to get some advice on KC.

I have three of their albums: ItCotCK, Red and Thrak and I like them all, the debut being my favourite so far. I like how they combine so different elements in their albums: screeching heavy guitars, symphonic mellotron passages, haunting vocals and very free form jazz. I've also listened to Three of a Perfect Pair and ConstruKction of Light a couple of years ago but wasn't too impressed by them. I might give them a second chance some day, though.

So now I've listened some songs on Youtube and decided that the next album I would dig into would be either Larks' Tongues in Aspic or Starless And Bible Black. I'd like to ask your opinion on the 40th anniversary CD+DVD-A versions. I have a stereo system, so I won't get 5.1 sound, but I guess the Hi-Res stereo mixes make buying it worthwhile? Has anyone compared these 40th anniversary stereo mixes to previously remastered albums?

I've also understood that King Crimson is an excellent live band so I thought I might get one of their concert DVD's. Which one do you think is the best?

Welcome, PolarWolf!  I have done some comparisons between the various editions of the KC catalogue, and I have to say that the best version for you really depends on your taste.  I happen to like the sound that replicates the master tapes or a good vinyl pressing.  Some like to have the treble and bass cranked and it be a bit louder.  I find that when those changes are made, the sound becomes less clear, and that bothers me.  But again, for some it's not a problem, as they're primarily listening on MP3 players and/or earbuds.

 

Regarding the 40th series (CD/DVD), none of the stereo mixes that I've heard, except for Lizard, are as good as the 30th Anniversary series.  The other comment I would make is that Red is best on the EG version, over the 30th or the 40th.  (I have a 5.1 system, so for me it's a no-brainer--every one of them sounds phenomenal in 5.1--I rarely even listen to the stereo versions anymore.) 

 

As far as extras go, there are a fair bit on these 40th releases.  Nothing really that I'd consider essential, though.

Just thought I'd share.

Nice. 

Thanks, Todd. It's true that many of the remastered albums (and new releases as well) nowadays are too loud and less dynamic. Hmm... I seem to have the EG's 30th Anniversary edition of Red and it does sound very good. I probably won't upgrade that then. But maybe I'll try 40th Anniversary version of Starless And Bible Black. Larks Tongues seem not have that DVD-A version available yet.

 

.

 

Collins, Wallace, and Boz were performing King Crimson songs in a "Blues/Funk/R&B" style in 1972. There was a "Blues" version of "In the Court of the Crimson King" and by the time "Earthbound" was recorded it was mutiny on Fripp. When you listen to the live shows from 71'...the band is well rehearsed and performing outstanding versions of "Cirkus" "Formentera Lady", "I.T.C.O.T.C.K.", "Lady of the Dancing Water" etc   To see them live in 1972 and not be aware of the difference in sound and structure they had in 71' is a rude awakening. Fripp did not seem interested in playing the Blues and I have never seen evidence of it.

Eventually Collins, Wallace, and Boz had their day with Alexis Corner and Snape while Fripp moved on to produce Larks. All simply a difference in musical direction. Most interesting is the live version of "Sailor's Tale" on "Live in Plymouth 71'  possibly clocking in over 14 minutes. The center section where Wallace plays a tribal beat, Pete Sinfield creates the sound of ocean waves with the VCS synth, and Mel Collins playing the most unusal Caribbean jazz improv on flute is amazing.   

BINGO and thank you. The only issue is that too many people are not sure what the relevance is and how it relates to the time and place, and what a magic anthem it was for the time and place.

 

I can't really blame people for that though, when today's music is often way too insipid and trying to make itself relevant simply by using a quote of Jesus or someone else. Which is sad, because the man himself never quoted anyone else ... but only himself ... and here we are ... quoting someone outside of ourselves as an excuse for supposedly believing something that we do not understand and still question!

 

Relevance is not an idea! It's a reality!

Forgive me (for I have sinned), but what, precisely, is the relevance of Jesus in a discussion thread about King Crimson?

I think that the messiah in this scenario is played by Robert Fripp. I could easily be totally wrong though

Is it time for a "he's not the Messiah".......joke?

Seriously, I have an easier time making sense of the reports from the Hadron Collider than deciphering some of these posts.

I probably enjoy that song a little bit more than it deserves. 

Nice avatar, btw. 

I finally received my Starless & Bible Black 40th Anniversary box and it is very impressive already in the first few listens (well, I knew Great Deceiver and Fracture beforehand).

I don't usually listen improvisational music much but the mood created in e.g. Trio and the title song is amazing. And it's exciting that Fripp didn't tell at the time of release that many of the tracks were recorded live. Also the Night Watch is beautiful. The intro especially is the most magical moment on the album.

So, this is the fourth KC album I have (others are the debut, Red & THRAK) and it seems I'm fast becoming a King Crimson fan. There's something magical in their music. Except their 80's material maybe, because so far the songs I've heard from that time have left me cold. 

Lark's Tongues is probably the next in line. Poseidon is said to be a remake of the debut but I guess I'll have to find out myself.

I think your right, those that comes from "new" music moving backwards into prog, may find early 80's very strange and even bad, but that was not the way it felt back then, everything was brand new.

Exposure, The League of G, reformation of KC, Eno/byrne, Remain in Light, Gabriel IV.

It all felt natural at the time, exploring new tech. possibilities, mixing more "world" into the tracks, ect. ect.

 

(the boring stuff was Genesis Yes Floyd, because they didnt evolve, they just added more mainstream into the music)