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resurrection View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2011 at 02:45
The trouble with setting a parameter of 1969-1975 is that most of the groundwork for progressive rock was set much earlier, circa 1965 - 68 particularly. Another problem is that books tend to cover magazine articles and recordings, ignoring crucial bands that had a huge influence but who never recorded during that phase, or were bypassed by the popular magazines. This distorts the real picture.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2011 at 00:51
What is this 1,2,3 band the poster is talking about?  Do they have a discography on here?


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brainstormer View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2011 at 01:08
This may sound bitter, but from this one book I'm reading, which
will remain nameless, it seems some authors just want to throw in everything
they know about everything "academic" and try to apply it to the topic.  It is a bit pompous and
lowbrow, in it's own way.  I think a better approach would be to interview the people, and
realize that some degree of fame may have changed them, and use whatever wisdom
life has given you to arrive at what these people and their non-famous peers were
thinking 30 or 40 years previously.  To try to tie it into post-modernism is a bit absurd
when you have harmonic "figurative" music, which is not trying to deconstruct anything,
but instead build new structures much like the Baroque, Classical or Romantic period.

Emerson's autobiography isn't really serious,  but I read some interviews with him in the
early 70's where he was actually saying profound things about music.  It goes to show
that over time he just didn't care about that stuff to put it in the autobiography, for whatever
reason.  I'm not saying he doesn't understand what he was saying then, maybe he just
wanted to write a popular book. 

I think it's pretty obvious that these guys were at the top of their level intellectually...
I would underplay the dark angle of the Burroughs side for the major players in the more popular prog
music and think that they were just trying to create music more like the classical greats.
They wanted their innovations to be pleasing and loved by all.  A lot of these
other bands, like some of the krautrock variety, were a bit too drugged out to make
music that had much of a universal appeal. 

I get a sense that some like ELP and Floyd were incredibly mature individuals early on, whereas
Genesis slowly built up this professional maturity to the point where it seemed to eventually override
their artistic instincts. 

There is a saying, "Fame lifts up that which is light."  Every famous or somewhat famous
person I ever got close to did seem somewhat lightweight in some ways compared
to others who may have had similar talents.  I would also put that in the equation if you want
to think about what the prog greats are like.  Look at how so few of them stayed involved
in writing more serious work.

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giselle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2011 at 02:56
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

What is this 1,2,3 band the poster is talking about?  Do they have a discography on here?


1-2-3 was the early version of the band called CLOUDS who have a full biography etc on the archives.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2011 at 02:33

This group played prog 2 yrs before there was such a thing

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2011 at 18:35
I wonder how much they were an offshoot of what is known as Baroque Rock?
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giselle View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2011 at 05:19
Pardon my ignorance, I'll need to check out what 'Baroque Rock' is. 1-2-3(Clouds) was the blueprint for Yes, The Nice, King Crimson etc. Ritchie was the first keyboard player in Rock to stand and take a leading role, long before Emerson and Wakeman. Then again, (IMO) Clouds didn't adapt so well to the prog era, Ritchie remained an organ player, not keyboards/synths, and the band couldn't seem to incorporate their own writing anything like as good as the bands who copied them, like Yes and Crimson. 1-2-3 though, was a catalyst. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2011 at 09:45
Shocking lapse of history. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2011 at 08:32
Originally posted by brainstormer brainstormer wrote:

What is this 1,2,3 band the poster is talking about?  Do they have a discography on here?


1-2-3 was prog at least 2yrs before prog. Sure they have a profile here, check out Clouds
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 23 2011 at 09:31
I dont think there is such a thing. All we get is handed-down lies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2012 at 04:05
A few books come to mind:

"Avant-Rock" by Bill Martin (with a foreword by Fripp himself). It talks more than just about prog, but avant in general. Unfortunately, it barely even mentions guys like Soft Machine, but it does provide some interesting, little-known facts. Also, the author makes some careful observations about what avant is and the things that define it. Again, not all of the book is dedicated to core prog.

I suppose you could also check out Chris Welch's "The Story of Yes", albeit, to be honest with you, I haven't read it.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - May 23 2012 at 04:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2012 at 01:18
Chris Welch's promotion of Yes was a big factor in their emergence. As he was friends with them prior to their emergence, this was always likely to happen! Welch also therefore played a big part in the sanitation of the Yes story, so objectivity won't be in abundance!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2012 at 10:51
Hi,
 
Too many of these books are about the star and their supposed value as a star. I tend to stay away from those altogether.
 
That said, I really think that there are several posters on this board, whose words are just as good information about the time and place, and how this came about.
 
I know I have pushed this envelop above and beyond recognition to the point that some folks in this board like to comment how boring it is to see it again, but in the end, it is a valuable perspective. Dean, also has fabulous moments of memory and wording about the time and place and the music, that really gives London a totally different feel more often than not for me. I'm more about Southern California, although blubberfish would be a better person to discuss this, but his star won't allow something else to shine!
 
There are some very insightful and amazing threads here on the history as well ... there is one I participated on having to do with the dark side -- that is the wall in Germany thing ... that was really nice and interesting ... and as for my experience, I would like to hear more folks talk about the time and place.
 
The tv special that is on the tube about krautrock is magnificent and has a wonderful snapshot of the time and place, in a way that most do not understand how a political/social thing could become so important to music, and it was the enzyme that made it all work ... that is very difficult for "progressive" to define ... and mostly ... it was the same impetus and seeing that special start with "All Along the Watchtower" ... said it all ... while also helping put Bob Dylan's words in perspective ... which we are not capable of doing here!
 
I am of the opinion that all progressive websites, that kind of visual journalism that was what this music grew out of, needs to be more visible ... and that is the part that is difficult to express ... about this music ... it's so weird to me, that people can not connect "Epitath" with the anti-war sentiment in "The Wall", for example, and these were the some of the greatest themes all over Europe in th elate 50's and early 60's ... check out the movies ... and so many WW2 stories ... so by the time you got to see the COLOR and TV pictures of these things ... it was ... the same thing all over again ... and many folks wanted out of that crowd manipulation ... be it by gun or advertising.  That's the only difference between today and yesterday, btw!
 
But it's a discussion that is very difficult to formutate, when rock fans do not like theater or film, or vice versa. Usually, in these "movements" ... the arts tend to be together.


Edited by moshkito - May 24 2012 at 11:02
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2012 at 11:08
Originally posted by resurrection resurrection wrote:

The trouble with setting a parameter of 1969-1975 is that most of the groundwork for progressive rock was set much earlier, circa 1965 - 68 particularly. Another problem is that books tend to cover magazine articles and recordings, ignoring crucial bands that had a huge influence but who never recorded during that phase, or were bypassed by the popular magazines. This distorts the real picture.
 
Thanks ... AND corrupts the discussion and definition ... thus something like "a jagged guitar" is more important than what that sound is when involved with the music. And that is my main issue with people defining progressive anything. You might as well tell us that Mr. Hurley screaming just like Janis in Ball and Chain ... is not jagged ... you will really be full of it, too!
 
It also had mentioned that film, was far more progressive, as was art (painting) whose break downs started in the 1920's and 30's ... and that rock music was actually a late child for it all. It's hard to not think that Fellini, Antonioni, Bunuel, and so many others were not fighting the same establishment and details that "progressive" music became fond of.  I like to joke that the problem is that top ten fans do not follow the arts ... they only follow the top ten and the stars ... so ... us saying anything is usually an insult to their intelligence!


Edited by moshkito - January 15 2013 at 08:54
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2012 at 10:31
What a good summary as an epitaph to the post.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 10 2012 at 23:26
No one mentioned Armando Gallo's bio on Genesis, "I Know What I Like."  Just checked - still available used on Amazon.com.  Might be better than some of the others mentioned because it was written during the actual timeframe of the band's transition from 1968-1980.  The drawback is it only focuses on Genesis - no other prog band...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2013 at 07:27
I'd like to revitalize this topic as I've been deeply into prog books lately... because I'm just finishing my script (in Finnish, sorry!) of a book on prog 1967-1979 (UK - about 60% of the contents- , Germany, Italy, rest of Europe excluding Finland, North America).
   Hopefully all Finnish members here will be glad for the first general prog handbook in Finnish language, and will check it out in spring when it comes out! (I told about the book in the latest Colossus magazine too).
  Here are some English titles I've enjoyed:
* SNIDER, Charles: The Strawberry Bricks Guide to Progressive Rock. It also covers the years 1967-1979 album by album, chronologically whereas I made geographical sections (chronology within them only). This gave me a model which I improved further. For example I don't like the way each and every album by the greats is included, and there are dozens of bands that would have deserved at leat one entry.
* POWELL, Mark: Prophets & Sages covers the years 1967-1975, and the album articles are very detailed in background information but less succesful in describing the music itself. It seems all texts, ie. 80 album essays (not the shorter ones) are originally written for CD re-editions. Sadly other countries than UK have not very many albums included.
(to be continued...must be going...)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 08 2013 at 16:51
Originally posted by JeanFrame JeanFrame wrote:

I'm afraid that like most history, it depends who's writing it, to the victors go the spoils could be a theme song. The real roots of what happened are below the somewhat limited vision of the music press, who always go for the popular and commercially successful, and the visible anecdotes come from bands who prefer to write their own history rather than tell how it really was, in case it dents their egos and manufactured legacy. Why is there so little truth about?

That's then followed up by the book writers who use these thin and censored sources as sources, so we end up with a kind of watery soup. What music literature needs are serious historians who pay no attention to slogans and charts and instead go back to basic forensics. Then we might have a story we can take seriously.

Well said.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2013 at 09:26
Originally posted by DiamondDog DiamondDog wrote:

Originally posted by JeanFrame JeanFrame wrote:

I'm afraid that like most history, it depends who's writing it, to the victors go the spoils could be a theme song. The real roots of what happened are below the somewhat limited vision of the music press, who always go for the popular and commercially successful, and the visible anecdotes come from bands who prefer to write their own history rather than tell how it really was, in case it dents their egos and manufactured legacy. Why is there so little truth about?

That's then followed up by the book writers who use these thin and censored sources as sources, so we end up with a kind of watery soup. What music literature needs are serious historians who pay no attention to slogans and charts and instead go back to basic forensics. Then we might have a story we can take seriously.

Well said.
 
And this is the hardest part of saying so much in this board ... some folks tune out.
 
But I really think that anyone writing about "progressive", also needs to have a wider view of it ... and also make sense of the videos and the people's very words, which most of these writers are NOT. Best example, is Robert telling everyone that his music is not "progressive", but we call his band the Exhibit A for a "progressive" band ... when in fact it is one of the best "screenshot" or "picture" or "image" of that day and age ... the only thing missing is the Revolution #9 going along with it ... for better sensitivity to the ideas and noise!
 
It also hurts, when the American scene is left behind ... you hear Robert Wyatt talking about Jimi and the time and place, and he was living with 2 beat generation folks and one pinkfloyd'r and two gong'rs ... and a couple of softmachine'rs ... but it means nothing to any of those writers ... who are not capable of reading any of that or understanding why would Allen Ginsberg be reading a poem or two in "Tonite Let's All Love in London" ... but in this board, no one knows or cares.
 
And then, mentioning it again, you see the beginning of that "krautrock" special, and that beginning belongs in the first page ... of ANY progressive book ... but we can not look at it ... because it will confuse us ... and make us think that it is something tatlly else out there ... and it is not ... it's the same "source" ... and all of these different musics are a SOLID reaction by a generation to some bad things ... but we're all becoming lemmings ... we don't care ... so we just come up with esoteric ideas the details that do not verify anything ... again ... the surest way to get music ignored by folks that DO know music and the arts and the history ... end of story!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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