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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Points: 9869
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 Posted: March 06 2011 at 07:42 |
 friso wrote:
Making music (improvising, singing/writing songs) is very personal. Through the way clients improvise on any given instrument I can get to know them. I can help client with their musical wishes, but I can also invite them in trying new behavior. First in the music (for instance: learning to socially function in a group of people), then without music. Music also has a representative nature. Knowing this, it's possible to let clients improvise with personal themes so they can deal with these matters in a safe environment. Often it's interesting to get to know the clients musical taste; it tells a lot about them. If so - my musical taste must probably tell a lot about me..
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This is very interesting, can you elaborate on this? How do you associate personality with taste? Someone once said of me that my calm facade hides dark and fiery thoughts because I listen to what I described to him as acid rock, read authors with cynical worldviews and like stark films like A Clockwork Orange but I generally keep to myself and am patient and don't easily unleash my temper on anyone. Avoiding conflict, in short, and yet my tastes in art tend to seek out conflict and violence or at least intensity. So, could you elaborate with possibly some examples what aspects of musical taste do you base inferences about a person on?
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friso
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 24 2007
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 2506
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 04:21 |
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Well, first of all: information I receive from the way client play music or to which music they listen to has nothing to do with 'facts', but it can be a good hint. Furthermore, music that clients play in improvisations is way more reliable as a source of information then their musical taste in general.
The behavior of the inner world and the outer world of a person is most of the time in corrolation. Inner needs/feelings can be projected to behavior that others can see. For instance; when I feel chaotic in my mind I always feel the need to clean my room.
For healthy people the link between the inner needs and feelings and their developed musical taste is sometimes hard to make. For instance; your 'acid rock' can be a projection of a very troubled mind that seekes recognition in chaotic/confronting music. As if seeking for an allie.
Another possibility is that you are stable and healthy and just love that adventerious sound of free experimentation. In this case the music can project a need for adventure, which dissonant/chaotic music can give. Perhaps the music is a test or an exciting challange for your feeling of stability, knowing you can always safely return to your healthy state. This way it may also be a part of the excitement of learning new skills (as children do when they are playing). Music has representative qualities the mind fully accepts, so music can help you learn do deal with situations it represents.
Edited by friso - March 07 2011 at 04:23
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 10:49 |
friso wrote:
This way it may also be a part of the excitement of learning new skills (as children do when they are playing). Music has representative qualities the mind fully accepts, so music can help you learn do deal with situations it represents. |
This part is absolutely true.  I have learnt quickly on all the jobs I have held to date and am not afraid of grappling with something new, so challenging music that expresses conflict might represent that side of me. That's impressive, good diagnosis considering you haven't even met me.  Thanks, very interesting topic. 
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caretaker
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 19 2010
Location: united states
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Points: 288
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 13:18 |
Enjoyed the blog. Particularly the part about your job. I have a family member in stage 5 dementia. After several years of trying to find something to stimulate her into something resembling her former self, I accidentally stumbled upon music which I had tried before but not country music. She never cared too much for music let alone country but for some reason she now loves country music.
Also, I love my vinyls. I have vinyls 40 years old that sound like the day I got them. I've had a few defectives over the years but I've bought defective CD's as well. I know guys who still love their reel to reels and they do sound good. Once again that old spectre of personal opinion rears it's head. Anyway, nice work.
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 06:10 |
rogerthat wrote:
Signifying meaning - without necessarily trying to put into words what that meaning is - to things one adores is, simply put, HUMAN TENDENCY. What is semantically satisfying or consistent to you - Paravion - may not be consistent with human nature. For some people, a sense of meaning may be important to derive purpose in life and they may not be satisfied with simply saying they bask in the experience because it would seem to be a rather rudderless life if one were only hopping from one experience to another. Are empires built and brought down that way, are long held sports records broken that way, do musicians toil hard to master their craft that way, by only soaking in experience and with no inclination at all to move towards some goals, be they abstract and undefinable?
It is just human nature to want to attach meaning to things that concern one and I admit I don't really understand why you would want to comment on this aspect, directly or indirectly, on several, unrelated threads. Since you are concerned with semantics, it must be not be very hard for you to understand the sense in which friso most likely intended the word "meaning" and it is better to "go with the flow" rather than give entirely different colours to the word "meaning" and argue that it should not be used in that sense in relation to music or art. It is your choice, of course, to say what you wish on a thread but all that comes out of it is the direction of the thread is diverted from its original purpose. |
I don't want this discussion. While I am aware that what may be termed a layman conception of meaning is human nature I also know that my conception isn't inconsistent with human nature. Whatever normative sentiments and negativity read into my original post is on your account - no such intentions. I don't really understand the last part of your first paragraph, so I can't answer any of the questions.
rogerthat wrote:
...and it is better to "go with the flow" rather than give entirely different colours to the word "meaning" |
Really?
Edited by Paravion - March 19 2011 at 06:12
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 06:17 |
Paravion wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
...and it is better to "go with the flow" rather than give entirely different colours to the word "meaning" |
Really? |
It is quite evident on a plain reading of friso's post that he did not propose meaning in a rational or objective light. Ok, my bad, I shouldn't assume it was evident, maybe it was not at all evident into you so you had to launch into a semiotic discussion to 'correct' him. Carry on!
Edited by rogerthat - March 19 2011 at 06:17
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shockedjazz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 12 2008
Location: Madrid (spain)
Status: Offline
Points: 169
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Posted: August 01 2011 at 17:09 |
Friso excellent blog  ....im interested in musical therapy because im a philosophy teacher and i discover the best method for me to reach to my students...when im not talking about analitic matters but of the part in wich (furtunately) philosophy is not a sciencie, and is able to put questions you could never ask in the middle of the day to day existence (like "Yes indeed everything seems to be functional in this era, and philospohy doesnt but ¿what is the function of your life? ¿what is the function of yourself to yourself?... i will expand on that if its required) is trough music.....i like to put especially "Man-Erg", they think "o pastoral music" (or something like it) but when the middle section kicks in  , is asthonising to see the different reactions..some get it some not...but you know im not teaching maths (then they get interested in the lyrics, and its related topics).
I found that the types of question usualy involved in philosophy in old times, are now given a private form trough an intimate searching trough music...there is not only Sakira lovers between my dear teenagers ( even if they are a lot indeed  ). So i think your carrer choice is excellent.
Paravion i love your avatar....i always felt very identified with this tarot card...is easy to see why  . But im not really so sure that you can enclose meaning just in the conventional concepts, cause as long is been studying the "so-called" cognitive functions i would disagree with you in your pure semiotical analysis, cause is true that meaning is mediated conceptually but is not true that we can only think trough conventional concepts, in one side theres the imaginative so called coloration of concepts ( wich in the end is able to put a conventional meaning upside down), on the other side... is true that sciencie starts with conventional concepts or opinions, but it doesnt stops there and transform the meanings totally...for example the concept of inertial movement in Galileo being akin to that of violent movement in Aristotle is simply totally different in its core ( or say in conceptual detail)
Now if we get to grasping artistic meaning that two problems are combinated ...is absolutely impossible to feel the music without coloring subjectively the imaginative processes wich allow us to get to it in some way or another...for the other side, and expecially in prog, the more you know of the topic is being treated in the music, the more you are able to get different more sutile and revealing thoughts about the music ( what allows you to feel it differently of course).
So resuming: I dont think all meaning is public and secondly im not on the -"¿why think about it? just feel it- side, because it contradicts your first remark....is true that meaning is mediated by concepts.....so ¿how are yo gonna be able to just feel it?...it doesnt follow...and of course is pure conceptual fantasy something like you can feel without forming imaginations and concepts about it..because then feeling would be inefable and for example that would mean that you wouldnt be able to separate your pain feelings from your pleasure feelings ( in the innefable zone all is indistinguible...as soon as you separte and give synthetic unity of some kind...form and cognitive determinations appear)....and then you end saying something like "Obladi-Oblada" is like "Atrocity exhibition"...so i disagree the gatefold, the titles the aesthethic concepts the author was involved in all mediate your perception of music...especially when you say to yourself "Oh but what is goin on here?" something that happens frecuently listening to prog.....and dont feel theres nothing inmediate in prog listening, thats why we call some discs "a grower". You have to get into it.
Well sorry for my english and hello to everyone.
Edited by shockedjazz - August 01 2011 at 18:47
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Consumed by the passion of its inner fire the Phoenix burn to asses each night and is reborn in the morning with greater power.
Is Prog a Phoenix? I hope so.....
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shockedjazz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 12 2008
Location: Madrid (spain)
Status: Offline
Points: 169
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Posted: August 01 2011 at 17:48 |
I will expand some on a Zappa remark that says something like " Talking about music is like dancing about architecture"...it seems funny but doesnt stand a closer analysis...firstly because you cannot dance about something...it doesnt follow...is semantically a bad use of the combination of the words dance and about....!But hey you can speak or think about music and about architecture! And why is going to be different to talk about architecture or music? They both involve aesthetic concepts and formal concepts and conceptual interrelations between both...so whats the difference?.
And Zappa wich said that Beefheart couldnt play proper or profesional music (talking about "Trout Mask... )is going to make me believe he didnt care about the conceptual formal aspects of music?...so it seems he thought about music for sure!!! So why cant he talk about it?
Indeed a lot of his songs got a satirical and political meaning...and definite avantgarde aesththic concepts..thats why you hear it and you say: !Hey is Zappa! And Zappa knew for sure wich scales would be fit to create this mood or this other one... Thats a part of the reasons why hes a musical..just a musical genius ( with quite a lot of witt and humor).
Something that would be IMO closer to the truth would be saying that you can not enclose the imaginative and conceptual background of some piece of music like you can do with a formal sistem , like for example euclidian geometrics..wich is involved in architecture...but theres also formal enclosed sistems in music, is the use of them that you make whats not enclosed.
Edited by shockedjazz - August 01 2011 at 18:38
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Consumed by the passion of its inner fire the Phoenix burn to asses each night and is reborn in the morning with greater power.
Is Prog a Phoenix? I hope so.....
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Gentle Yes
Forum Groupie
Joined: July 07 2015
Location: greece
Status: Offline
Points: 65
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 14:57 |
Lark the Starless wrote:
Paravion wrote:
Except from the part involving judgements about the imaginative capabilities of the Dutch working class it's a nice story. You seem to have a very interesting job.
Meaning is my favourite subject - I may look at it from the other side of the looking-glass - an outlook where headlines like "the meaning of prog" is met with a huge amount of scepticism due to many years of confusion provided by semiotics and linguistics.
In order to discover 'the meaning of prog' one needs to consider the age-old problem of the meaning of meaning which isn't solved and isn't anywhere near being solved. While I in large parts agree that "As soon as music is released it's artistic cause is completely stolen from it's creator. We interpret what it means to us, we tell each other what it is about, we tell which emotions it represents. We tell why it should be there in our lives. We give it a meaning, and in a way - it gives meaning to us. We all have music that we accept as representative for certain aspects of ourselves. We often feel touched (or 'seen') by music, accepted by it, invited by it." I wouldn't equate it with meaning. It's a giant leap to go from personal experience and evaluation triggered by some stimulus and elevate it as its meaning. The rational capability that allows one to find (or make up) meaning is first of all limited, and in order for one's quest for the meaning of prog to suceed, it will have to be more than what one happens to interpret it to be because such interpretations are very personal, perhaps ideosycratic and is most likely due to a lot of factors besides the music itself. Meaning is not a private affair. Why not care less about deducting 'meaning' and make interpretations and just enjoy the experience?
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Don't see the need for the fancy models 
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I just loved your gif man :P
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20609
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:53 |
Currently made 180 gram vinyl is mastered correctly. Just incase anyone was wondering. 
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20624
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Posted: July 14 2015 at 16:03 |
The 'meaning of prog'.....is that like the 'way of prog'....?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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The Meaning of Prog
