The Meaning of Prog
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Topic: The Meaning of Prog
Posted By: friso
Subject: The Meaning of Prog
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 13:45
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This is my first try to write a blog, so I hope you will like it. My English isn't perfect.
Thursday-morning; I wake up at 06:45. Quickly I get dressed, I eat something, gather my stuff and lock the door behind me as I live around 07:15. All are trivial matters, but then the first moment to break the daily happenings arrives. I put my headphone (which also functions as ear-warmer) on and I put on my mp3 player. I dislike my mp3 player, because it's quality is nowhere near my stereo playing nicely cleaned vinyls. Still, on this early moment of the morning it gives me an opportunity to choose. The city, the bus, the train, the fields, the stations - non of these things interested me too much (except with abnormal weather). Furthermore, I can't choose for what I see an how I travel - no - it's the music that reflects my inner world. Of course, an assortment of progressive rock albums is digitally available on my mp3-player. Magma? Perhaps a bit to heavy for 07:15 in the morning. Arena? Listened tot that quite a lot already. Van der Graaf Generator? Mwah.. should listen to it on a vinyl when I get home, otherwise I would one day forget their brutal seventies sound. Perhaps I just should try Magma's K.A. again, didn't quite understand the 'hallelujah' ending-section the last time I listened to it. The faces of the Dutch working class are strait or tired, they can't even imagine what I'm listening right now in this train that now crosses the big bridge near Nijmegen - giving us a tempting look at the red sun rising. Delusions of grandeur, or just mystifying music. There are lot of ways to interpret Zeuhl it's haunting vocals, it's terrifying bass-lines and above all it's unconventional rhythm-section. What is it that made me pick this album? Escapism? I don't want to join the tired looking crowd boarding and leaving the trains; this time can be spend discovering new worlds. All music with depth and atmosphere is like a short vacation for me, it takes me somewhere (albeit the technical parts of my brain). Now it's time for me to leave the train and start my ten minute walk through the semi-forrest with lot's of small buildings. I work at a big terrain of the Dutch mental health institution - I'm learning to become music therapist and have to a practice period for a year (four days a week) with real professionals. I work with forensic psychiatric patients, traumatized asylum-seekers and older psychiatric patients. I've learned a lot about the importance of music and how it can be used to help people cope with problems or the even solve them. Making music (improvising, singing/writing songs) is very personal. Through the way clients improvise on any given instrument I can get to know them. I can help client with their musical wishes, but I can also invite them in trying new behavior. First in the music (for instance: learning to socially function in a group of people), then without music. Music also has a representative nature. Knowing this, it's possible to let clients improvise with personal themes so they can deal with these matters in a safe environment. Often it's interesting to get to know the clients musical taste; it tells a lot about them. If so - my musical taste must probably tell a lot about me.. Magma reflects my search for a deeper understanding of the universe (I love doc's about the cosmos, social developments, etc.). Van der Graaf Generator uncovers my wish to show my emotions in a extrovert way, and the lyrics also deal with some existential themes. King Crimson reveals my urge for innovation and thinking out of the box. Also I love to think about abstract matters, and the word 'abstract' is well put to music by King Crimson. As soon as music is released it's artistic cause is completely stolen from it's creator. We interpret what it means to us, we tell each other what it is about, we tell which emotions it represents. We tell why it should be there in our lives. We give it a meaning, and in a way - it gives meaning to us. We all have music that we accept as representative for certain aspects of ourselves. We often feel touched (or 'seen') by music, accepted by it, invited by it. Prog has a lot offer, for it has so many dimensions, sub-styles, philosophical lyrics, concepts, ideals. Some have argued that it's far away from the common man - may be so - but it's often close to such distinctive aspects of ourselves that it can suddenly become very personal. And by the way; ever met some-one who thinks of himself as a common man? At 17:00 I go back home. Same train, different direction. No rising sun, I now witness the sunset. I've dealt with a lot of musical wishes of clients (my own musical wishes should not be apparent during music therapy, unless when asked for). Now it's time for me again. Back home the diamond needle is quickly summoned to lower its position in order to touch one of my precious vinyls, now smoothly turning round 33 times in every minute. In the Wake of Poseidon - I reinvent myself and wake up in my student chamber. Before I forget, let's listen to some Van der Graaf Generator as well. I decide to take a look at PA.. hey.. why shouldn't I myself write a blog? |
Replies:
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 06:02
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Except from the part involving judgements about the imaginative capabilities of the Dutch working class it's a nice story. You seem to have a very interesting job. Meaning is my favourite subject - I may look at it from the other side of the looking-glass - an outlook where headlines like "the meaning of prog" is met with a huge amount of scepticism due to many years of confusion provided by semiotics and linguistics. In order to discover 'the meaning of prog' one needs to consider the age-old problem of the meaning of meaning which isn't solved and isn't anywhere near being solved. While I in large parts agree that "As soon as music is released it's artistic cause is completely stolen from it's creator. We interpret what it means to us, we tell each other what it is about, we tell which emotions it represents. We tell why it should be there in our lives. We give it a meaning, and in a way - it gives meaning to us. We all have music that we accept as representative for certain aspects of ourselves. We often feel touched (or 'seen') by music, accepted by it, invited by it." I wouldn't equate it with meaning. It's a giant leap to go from personal experience and evaluation triggered by some stimulus and elevate it as its meaning. The rational capability that allows one to find (or make up) meaning is first of all limited, and in order for one's quest for the meaning of prog to suceed, it will have to be more than what one happens to interpret it to be because such interpretations are very personal, perhaps ideosycratic and is most likely due to a lot of factors besides the music itself. Meaning is not a private affair. Why not care less about deducting 'meaning' and make interpretations and just enjoy the experience?  |
Posted By: Rune2000
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 09:38
Thanks for giving us a glimps at your everyday life and thoughts! 
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Posted By: Bonnek
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 16:20
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Nice reflections Friso, fascinating area of expertise you studied for. If we can do requests, I'd wish to hear more about the vinyl experience, I have some fond memories of vinyls but that's more nostalgia then anything else. In the beginning of the CD they mostly sounded awful (the first CDs of "In the Court of the Crimson King" and "Pawn Heart" were pure horror). But CDs masters gradually improved, although sometimes they are still problematic (such as the latest Genesis remasters = horror of otherworldly dimensions). Anyway, I completely ignore my vinyls now as the good CD masters sound better for me. What makes them the big thing for you? |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 02:21
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Well there are two kinds of reasons to listen to vinyls
Objective Reasons 1. A lot of '60 and '70 records are mastered insufficient, even to this day. Symptoms are loss depth, loss of high, loss of volume in silent passages and way to high bass. Vinyls have more peaks in sound and albums like for instance In the Weak of Poseidon are just totally different (and flat) when listening to a cd. 2. I'm a student and I can't afford to buy all this music on a cd. A lot of vinyls in my collection of 'prog classics' have cost me less then 5 euro. Moreover, there are people giving away their collections for nothing. Subjective reasons 1. Vinyl sound in general is perceived as warmer by it's listeners. 2. The artwork works better when printed bigger 3. Seeing = hearing, it's way more interesting to look at then a closed cd-player 4. The magic of 'old records'; where did they come from, who listened to it before..? I never grew up with vinyls and for me it's like ancient Egypt in a way (especially due to the psychedelic covers) 5. It hip these days (worst reason so far..) 6. The vinyl collecting world; I love looking on fairs and second hand vinyl shops. You never know what you'll find this time, it's good to have a big wishlist in order to recognize the valuable music. Furthermore, you develop a sense of what most records are worth these days, some can get quite expensive. For instance; one shouldn't hope to find Supersister for less then 20 euro. The record collectors themselves often are self-centered middle aged men, but some are really nice and they love to hear a student talk about collecting seventies prog. ..have to go now... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 16:33
And you left behind the most obvious, and important reason of all ...
IT WAS WHAT THERE WAS AT THE TIME ... YOU HAD NO CHOICE!
The rest is not important and is a discussion about nuts and fruits! And when to eat each of them! ... more on this later as I digest this ... the only thing missing here is the quotidian part of your study ... you are comparing today's ears with yesterday's senses, and vice versa, and you can only do that in Science Fiction and in the Academic World ... since it can't happen otherwise ... I'm sure you have heard of something called ..."Time" ... and it isn't a song! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
friso wrote:Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 16:42
He isn't living then...he is living now So this observation is inexplicable. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 19:07
And the whole thing is ... science fiction!
We need to make a movie! We could make Dune look bad! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 00:05
| Buying music on vinyl has always been a choise for me, I'm born in 1988. I must admit I didn't really understand your point there Moshkito. |
Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 04:31
I rarely understand what the hell you're going on about Moshkito.
 ------------- http://www.thefreshfilmblog.com/" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Lark the Starless
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 10:11
Don't see the need for the fancy models  ------------- 
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:11
| Yeah, I would rather have seen some reactions that would give a hint towards whether my blog is useful or not. |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:35
You don't? It's not a fancy model - it's a classic triangle of signification (semiotic triangle) that in gross simplicity simply tells (much more efficiently than words) that there is no direct relationship between a word and it's referen(t/ces) - meaning is mediated through a concept AND the concept isn't a question of what we happen to interpret it to be for ourselves. I guess the thing is that I'd like to express that meaning is highly complex - and that this blog bearing the lofty (dare I say pretentious..) title "The Meaning of Prog" (I take it literately, and the serious tone suggests that we ought to) should perhaps consider this complexity more thoroughly or be titled differently.
I'm not interested in and am unable to make such calls. To me, it's not - if the purpose is to reveal insights about the meaning of prog. Expect for that little piece of polemics - it's an interesting read with some good points - maybe useful, perhaps not. |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 12:52
...or perhaps it was an intimate review about some matters that crossed my mind lately, that seem to be suited for the concept of a blog. I really dislike the fact you've set this negative tone for a discussion that could have been really interesting. |
Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 13:28
| I'm sorry if write in a negative tone - no such intentions, and I can't really see how it would be perceived as such. It's intended as a neutral and unconcealed description of what I think about a little aspect of your blog. |
Posted By: Earendil
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:09
| Well-written entry, thanks. Sounds like an interesting field to study for sure. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 20:28
That's the problem ... you're trying to understand things that are not there ... this is like Monty Python, or The Goons ... there is no understanding ... there's just enjoyment ... don't you know that we are in the age of entertainment? And commerciality? Understanding doesn't exist ... sales pitches do! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 01 2011 at 20:46
It's hard ... if there is one thing that is really hard to get around on, is the personal feelings in many of these things.
I, myself, write a lot ofthese feelings, and sometimes it ... I feel like people don't like to hear that you have feelings and wonderings and sometimes think out loud.
What you did is nice, very nice ... and I can see the movie ... but when someone is only interested "progressive" music, I am not sure that they allow themselves the pleasure, or the experience, to flow like you did ... and your flow, like mine, has nothing to do with progressive or not, it has to do with a specific feeling, or expression that best fits certain moods or times during the day ... for me ... it's different now than it was 30 years ago, but I like the sound of ... nothing ... now ... and this is one of the reasons why sometimes, a lot of music just doesn't mean a thing for me ... there is no inner peace in it, and it's too confusing in its own designs to even try to bring across anything ... other than ... just another song, or hear Fleetwood Mac for the 1457th time on the flipping radio!
I live for the experience, and the feeling. Comments by anyone are not necessary, since they are not the ones creating the experience in the first place ... which is one reason why a lot of people sometimes take negatively to me ... my comments tend to alienate them or make them think they are not important ... and sadly ... it has nothing to do with importance ... it has to do with allowing someone's vision to fly and live ...
It's too easy to say that music is just a personal thing and means nothing else ... because if that was all there was, not that many of us would be into it .... it's pretty obvious to me, that many times the music has a lot more to it, than is seen, or understood, or given the credit for ... and it is a that time, that music shines, and you just have to have your eyes and ears open, so you can find a way to let that moment shine ... because when it does ... there is nothing better to live for ... regardless of which art you are on about.
There ... I finally replied to your blog with the proper spirit that you had in mind ... and hopefully you can read and appreciate this ... ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 02 2011 at 15:12
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Hi,
Who woulda thunk it ... it didn't matter if understanding was there or not , for anyone since the replies are all ...
 ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 06 2011 at 07:21
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Signifying meaning - without necessarily trying to put into words what that meaning is - to things one adores is, simply put, HUMAN TENDENCY. What is semantically satisfying or consistent to you - Paravion - may not be consistent with human nature. For some people, a sense of meaning may be important to derive purpose in life and they may not be satisfied with simply saying they bask in the experience because it would seem to be a rather rudderless life if one were only hopping from one experience to another. Are empires built and brought down that way, are long held sports records broken that way, do musicians toil hard to master their craft that way, by only soaking in experience and with no inclination at all to move towards some goals, be they abstract and undefinable? It is just human nature to want to attach meaning to things that concern one and I admit I don't really understand why you would want to comment on this aspect, directly or indirectly, on several, unrelated threads. Since you are concerned with semantics, it must be not be very hard for you to understand the sense in which friso most likely intended the word "meaning" and it is better to "go with the flow" rather than give entirely different colours to the word "meaning" and argue that it should not be used in that sense in relation to music or art. It is your choice, of course, to say what you wish on a thread but all that comes out of it is the direction of the thread is diverted from its original purpose.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 06 2011 at 07:42
This is very interesting, can you elaborate on this? How do you associate personality with taste? Someone once said of me that my calm facade hides dark and fiery thoughts because I listen to what I described to him as acid rock, read authors with cynical worldviews and like stark films like A Clockwork Orange but I generally keep to myself and am patient and don't easily unleash my temper on anyone. Avoiding conflict, in short, and yet my tastes in art tend to seek out conflict and violence or at least intensity. So, could you elaborate with possibly some examples what aspects of musical taste do you base inferences about a person on?
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Posted By: friso
Date Posted: March 07 2011 at 04:21
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Well, first of all: information I receive from the way client play music or to which music they listen to has nothing to do with 'facts', but it can be a good hint. Furthermore, music that clients play in improvisations is way more reliable as a source of information then their musical taste in general.
The behavior of the inner world and the outer world of a person is most of the time in corrolation. Inner needs/feelings can be projected to behavior that others can see. For instance; when I feel chaotic in my mind I always feel the need to clean my room. For healthy people the link between the inner needs and feelings and their developed musical taste is sometimes hard to make. For instance; your 'acid rock' can be a projection of a very troubled mind that seekes recognition in chaotic/confronting music. As if seeking for an allie. Another possibility is that you are stable and healthy and just love that adventerious sound of free experimentation. In this case the music can project a need for adventure, which dissonant/chaotic music can give. Perhaps the music is a test or an exciting challange for your feeling of stability, knowing you can always safely return to your healthy state. This way it may also be a part of the excitement of learning new skills (as children do when they are playing). Music has representative qualities the mind fully accepts, so music can help you learn do deal with situations it represents. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 07 2011 at 10:49
This part is absolutely true.
I have learnt quickly on all the jobs I have held to date and am not afraid of grappling with something new, so challenging music that expresses conflict might represent that side of me. That's impressive, good diagnosis considering you haven't even met me.  Thanks, very interesting topic.  |
Posted By: caretaker
Date Posted: March 07 2011 at 13:18
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Enjoyed the blog. Particularly the part about your job. I have a family member in stage 5 dementia. After several years of trying to find something to stimulate her into something resembling her former self, I accidentally stumbled upon music which I had tried before but not country music. She never cared too much for music let alone country but for some reason she now loves country music.
Also, I love my vinyls. I have vinyls 40 years old that sound like the day I got them. I've had a few defectives over the years but I've bought defective CD's as well. I know guys who still love their reel to reels and they do sound good. Once again that old spectre of personal opinion rears it's head. Anyway, nice work.
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Posted By: Paravion
Date Posted: March 19 2011 at 06:10
I don't want this discussion. While I am aware that what may be termed a layman conception of meaning is human nature I also know that my conception isn't inconsistent with human nature. Whatever normative sentiments and negativity read into my original post is on your account - no such intentions. I don't really understand the last part of your first paragraph, so I can't answer any of the questions.
Really?
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 19 2011 at 06:17
It is quite evident on a plain reading of friso's post that he did not propose meaning in a rational or objective light. Ok, my bad, I shouldn't assume it was evident, maybe it was not at all evident into you so you had to launch into a semiotic discussion to 'correct' him. Carry on!
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Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: August 01 2011 at 17:09
Friso excellent blog  ....im interested in musical therapy because im a philosophy teacher and i discover the best method for me to reach to my students...when im not talking about analitic matters but of the part in wich (furtunately) philosophy is not a sciencie, and is able to put questions you could never ask in the middle of the day to day existence (like "Yes indeed everything seems to be functional in this era, and philospohy doesnt but ¿what is the function of your life? ¿what is the function of yourself to yourself?... i will expand on that if its required) is trough music.....i like to put especially "Man-Erg", they think "o pastoral music" (or something like it) but when the middle section kicks in  , is asthonising to see the different reactions..some get it some not...but you know im not teaching maths (then they get interested in the lyrics, and its related topics).
I found that the types of question usualy involved in philosophy in old times, are now given a private form trough an intimate searching trough music...there is not only Sakira lovers between my dear teenagers ( even if they are a lot indeed
 ). So i think your carrer choice is excellent.Paravion i love your avatar....i always felt very identified with this tarot card...is easy to see why
.But im not really so sure that you can enclose meaning just in the conventional concepts, cause as long is been studying the "so-called" cognitive functions i would disagree with you in your pure semiotical analysis, cause is true that meaning is mediated conceptually but is not true that we can only think trough conventional concepts, in one side theres the imaginative so called coloration of concepts ( wich in the end is able to put a conventional meaning upside down), on the other side... is true that sciencie starts with conventional concepts or opinions, but it doesnt stops there and transform the meanings totally...for example the concept of inertial movement in Galileo being akin to that of violent movement in Aristotle is simply totally different in its core ( or say in conceptual detail)
Now if we get to grasping artistic meaning that two problems are combinated ...is absolutely impossible to feel the music without coloring subjectively the imaginative processes wich allow us to get to it in some way or another...for the other side, and expecially in prog, the more you know of the topic is being treated in the music, the more you are able to get different more sutile and revealing thoughts about the music ( what allows you to feel it differently of course).
So resuming: I dont think all meaning is public and secondly im not on the -"¿why think about it? just feel it- side, because it contradicts your first remark....is true that meaning is mediated by concepts.....so ¿how are yo gonna be able to just feel it?...it doesnt follow...and of course is pure conceptual fantasy something like you can feel without forming imaginations and concepts about it..because then feeling would be inefable and for example that would mean that you wouldnt be able to separate your pain feelings from your pleasure feelings ( in the innefable zone all is indistinguible...as soon as you separte and give synthetic unity of some kind...form and cognitive determinations appear)....and then you end saying something like "Obladi-Oblada" is like "Atrocity exhibition"...so i disagree the gatefold, the titles the aesthethic concepts the author was involved in all mediate your perception of music...especially when you say to yourself "Oh but what is goin on here?" something that happens frecuently listening to prog.....and dont feel theres nothing inmediate in prog listening, thats why we call some discs "a grower". You have to get into it.
Well sorry for my english and hello to everyone.
------------- Consumed by the passion of its inner fire the Phoenix burn to asses each night and is reborn in the morning with greater power. Is Prog a Phoenix? I hope so..... |
Posted By: shockedjazz
Date Posted: August 01 2011 at 17:48
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I will expand some on a Zappa remark that says something like " Talking about music is like dancing about architecture"...it seems funny but doesnt stand a closer analysis...firstly because you cannot dance about something...it doesnt follow...is semantically a bad use of the combination of the words dance and about....!But hey you can speak or think about music and about architecture! And why is going to be different to talk about architecture or music? They both involve aesthetic concepts and formal concepts and conceptual interrelations between both...so whats the difference?.
And Zappa wich said that Beefheart couldnt play proper or profesional music (talking about "Trout Mask... )is going to make me believe he didnt care about the conceptual formal aspects of music?...so it seems he thought about music for sure!!! So why cant he talk about it?
Indeed a lot of his songs got a satirical and political meaning...and definite avantgarde aesththic concepts..thats why you hear it and you say: !Hey is Zappa! And Zappa knew for sure wich scales would be fit to create this mood or this other one... Thats a part of the reasons why hes a musical..just a musical genius ( with quite a lot of witt and humor).
Something that would be IMO closer to the truth would be saying that you can not enclose the imaginative and conceptual background of some piece of music like you can do with a formal sistem , like for example euclidian geometrics..wich is involved in architecture...but theres also formal enclosed sistems in music, is the use of them that you make whats not enclosed.
So the "proper" frase would be something like: You can not "distill the-conceptual- essence" ( quoting Hamill) of a work of art in a absolute way....but thats not so funny and easily catchy i know..so we can say "Playing about economy is like dancing about the pope"
      ------------- Consumed by the passion of its inner fire the Phoenix burn to asses each night and is reborn in the morning with greater power. Is Prog a Phoenix? I hope so..... |
Posted By: Gentle Yes
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 14:57
I just loved your gif man :P
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Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 15:53
Currently made 180 gram vinyl is mastered correctly. Just incase anyone was wondering. 
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: July 14 2015 at 16:03
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The 'meaning of prog'.....is that like the 'way of prog'....? ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |