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Nathaniel607 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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 Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:13 |
 WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog. |
Oh for f**ks sake.
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Prove me wrong. Oh, but that would imply that post-89 garage isn't absolutely derivative filth produced in a worthless digital age hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values. Poor you.
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Well, obviously, it's impossible since you are COMPLETELY set in your opinion. If I posted the most amazing music here, you would surely just immediately decry it.
Besides, what the hell do you mean by "hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values"?
Finally, derivative does not mean bad. Most, if not all music is in some way derivative. And prog especially so. I mean, it basically started as a fusion between rock and jazz (or rock but more complex), so it's completely derived.
I suppose if I was going to give it a shot though, I'd go for;
or
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:20 |
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that's the best you can come up with? Those two bands aren't particularly original
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:21 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog. |
Oh for f**ks sake.
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Prove me wrong. Oh, but that would imply that post-89 garage isn't absolutely derivative filth produced in a worthless digital age hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values. Poor you.
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Well, obviously, it's impossible since you are COMPLETELY set in your opinion. If I posted the most amazing music here, you would surely just immediately decry it.
Besides, what the hell do you mean by "hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values"?
The notion of the post-modern pastiche is embedded in all post-89 thought. If in the eighties it was a novel and rather fringe position, it became the standard from the 90s on. The old modernist stance of looking forward and doing something new is effectively dead under the prevailing ethos of today. Its all about recycling old ideas in the current era, and technology allows any and all crumb-bums to imitate bygone classics.
Finally, derivative does not mean bad. Most, if not all music is in some way derivative. And prog especially so. I mean, it basically started as a fusion between rock and jazz (or rock but more complex), so it's completely derived.
Forward-looking pre-89 fusions involved the application of new technologies and tonal colours previously unimaginable within an ever more complex popular music context. Post-89 theft just samples everything and uses cheap digital doohickeys to replicate the sounds of yesteryear.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:22 |
Ayn Rand WalterDigsTunes wrote:
There is no place for whim in any human activity—if it is to be regarded as human. There is no place for the unknowable, the unintelligible, the undefinable, the non-objective in any human product. This side of an insane asylum, the actions of a human being are motivated by a conscious purpose; when they are not, they are of no interest to anyone outside a psychotherapist’s office. And when the practitioners of modern art declare that they don’t know what they are doing or what makes them do it, we should take their word for it and give them no further consideration.
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Edited by Equality 7-2521 - January 15 2011 at 16:23
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007
Location: SanDiegoTijuana
Status: Offline
Points: 4373
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:28 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Ayn Rand WalterDigsTunes wrote:
There is no place for whim in any human activity—if it is to be regarded as human. There is no place for the unknowable, the unintelligible, the undefinable, the non-objective in any human product. This side of an insane asylum, the actions of a human being are motivated by a conscious purpose; when they are not, they are of no interest to anyone outside a psychotherapist’s office. And when the practitioners of modern art declare that they don’t know what they are doing or what makes them do it, we should take their word for it and give them no further consideration.
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The is no place for music in post-89 humanity- if it is to be regarded as music.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:29 |
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I love you Walter
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:40 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
that's the best you can come up with? Those two bands aren't particularly original
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Uz Jseme is pretty original to me at least. Maybe Birds and Building, but a suspect he would dismiss that as ripoff jazz fusion. Maybe something like Godsticks, but they aren't overtly complex.
What did you have in mind?
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
The notion of the post-modern pastiche is embedded in all post-89 thought. If in the eighties it was a novel and rather fringe position, it became the standard from the 90s on. The old modernist stance of looking forward and doing something new is effectively dead under the prevailing ethos of today. Its all about recycling old ideas in the current era, and technology allows any and all crumb-bums to imitate bygone classics. |
What. You're saying, the entire collective conciousness of the WORLD changed in such a way that new music is not possible?
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Forward-looking pre-89 fusions involved the application of new technologies and tonal colours previously unimaginable within an ever more complex popular music context. Post-89 theft just samples everything and uses cheap digital doohickeys to replicate the sounds of yesteryear. |
Oh my God. I cannot comprehend the madness you speak. You're saying that using a digital keyboard that can pretty much perfectly replicate an old moog is somehow worse than using the real thing? How can you state you believe in modernism and going forward and then condemn the usage of new technologies to make things cheaper and more simple?
Edited by Nathaniel607 - January 15 2011 at 16:48
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A B Negative
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 02 2006
Location: Methil Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 1594
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:15 |
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Sabbath's Iron Man sounds more like KC's 21st Century Schizoid Man than Ozzy's version of 21st Century Schizoid Man does.
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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."
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akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:21 |
"Do you learn music theory? It doesn't matter how many albums you listen to, if you don't know theory then it doesn't matter. If you do know music theory, it's even more surprising you'd even consider Black Sabbath stole from King Crimson"
Now the point of the thread of "derivative". I didn't say any of these bands stole, because I don't think they did. Its a continuum of influence, which includes using other bands licks or the way they put together a solo. And part where both songs take off with the guitars is more than just a guitar solo, the whole band changes up the songs similarly at that point.
That is what in fact made 21st Century SM so darn impactful at that time. Sure there was plenty of hard rock tunes before it, but nothing sounded, arranged, structured quite like it up to that point. So no, there weren't many songs that sounded like21st Century SM in late 1969. Then along comes Iron Man the next year that had similar points of reference to 21st Century SM .
BTW, I think Sabbath are better than 90% of the bands on this web site.
ANd yes, I learned enough theory, songs, scales and guitar chops to know a similar sounding song when I hear/play it.
Hey, I'm a nice guy. And Nathan you seem like a GREAT guy! We should hang out together sometime. Take care
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akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:25 |
"Do you learn music theory? It doesn't matter how many albums you listen to, if you don't know theory then it doesn't matter. If you do know music theory, it's even more surprising you'd even consider Black Sabbath stole from King Crimson"
Now the point of the thread of "derivative". I didn't say any of these bands stole, because I don't think they did. Its a continuum of influence, which includes using other bands licks or the way they put together a solo. And part where both songs take off with the guitars is more than just a guitar solo, the whole band changes up the songs similarly at that point.
That is what in fact made 21st Century SM so darn impactful at that time. Sure there was plenty of hard rock tunes before it, but nothing sounded, arranged, structured quite like it up to that point. So no, there weren't many songs that sounded like21st Century SM in late 1969. Then along comes Iron Man the next year that had similar points of reference to 21st Century SM .
BTW, I think Sabbath are better than 90% of the bands on this web site.
ANd yes, I learned enough theory, songs, scales and guitar chops to know a similar sounding song when I hear/play it.
Hey, I'm a nice guy. And Nathan you seem like a GREAT guy! We should hang out together sometime. Take care
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akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:31 |
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 18:51 |
akajazzman wrote:
"Do you learn music theory? It doesn't matter how many albums you listen to, if you don't know theory then it doesn't matter. If you do know music theory, it's even more surprising you'd even consider Black Sabbath stole from King Crimson"
Now the point of the thread of "derivative". I didn't say any of these bands stole, because I don't think they did. Its a continuum of influence, which includes using other bands licks or the way they put together a solo. And part where both songs take off with the guitars is more than just a guitar solo, the whole band changes up the songs similarly at that point.
That is what in fact made 21st Century SM so darn impactful at that time. Sure there was plenty of hard rock tunes before it, but nothing sounded, arranged, structured quite like it up to that point. So no, there weren't many songs that sounded like21st Century SM in late 1969. Then along comes Iron Man the next year that had similar points of reference to 21st Century SM .
BTW, I think Sabbath are better than 90% of the bands on this web site.
ANd yes, I learned enough theory, songs, scales and guitar chops to know a similar sounding song when I hear/play it.
Hey, I'm a nice guy. And Nathan you seem like a GREAT guy! We should hang out together sometime. Take care |
I guess I can see what you mean from an "inspired by" standpoint - but I still really don't see many similarities, but okay, :D.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 19:14 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
What did you have in mind? |
I don't know, Jean Louis or Negura Bunget maybe
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 22:12 |
I don't think Iron Man was at all influenced by Schizoid. Why should it be? Sabbath were already playing some of the songs off the eponymous debut in 1969. Iron Man was clearly a continuation of that style, no more. By extending your logic, we could argue that any kind of heavy rock music is derivative of Schizoid, which is a ridiculous position. Perhaps, we should say that Schizoid itself was then derivative of Sunshine of your love (Cream) because much more striking resemblances can be observed between that song and NIB. 
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The Truth
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 19 2009
Location: Kansas
Status: Offline
Points: 21795
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 22:33 |
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This was a great Walter thread.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:13 |
21st Century Schizoid Man and Manic Depression by Hendrix always blended together in my mind, I'm not sure why but if I think of one song it always turns into the other.
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
What did you have in mind? |
I don't know, Jean Louis or Negura Bunget maybe
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Meh, Jean Louis are just Die Like A Dog plus some avant rock and other various free jazz influences, and I don't know Negura Bunget but it's black metal so I'm sure I could say something dismissive if I cared enough to. :P
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Tapfret
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 12 2007
Location: Bryant, Wa
Status: Offline
Points: 8602
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:21 |
WalterDigsTunes wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Most contemporary "prog". |
Are you serious?
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The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.
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Sooo....for those of us age 43 and up ALL prog is contemporary prog and is derivative dross stolen by impetuous iconoclasts using modern gizmos for their electronic buffoonerizm. Stick with the classics...2 apes clacking rocks together.
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akajazzman
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 13 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 124
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:32 |
A B Negative wrote:
Sabbath's Iron Man sounds more like KC's 21st Century Schizoid Man than Ozzy's version of 21st Century Schizoid Man does. |
Not to keep pushing this, but even Ozzy was so enamored with King Crimson he covered 21st CSM on a Cover Ep for a Ozzy Box set! He thanked King Crimson in the liner notes and said if it was not for KC then heavy metal would have not happened!
Sabbath did a lot for music. Blue Cheer, Deep Purple, Zep and others were hard rockin proto metal bands. But Sabbath in many ways was the first modern day sinister heavy metal band. So they did plenty. But I always wished that they had expanded a little more into developing Prog metal more. Now that would have been something.
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Anthony H.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 11 2010
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 6088
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:43 |
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Wow, Ayn Rand was such a bitch.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:53 |
Anthony H. wrote:
Wow, Ayn Rand was such a bitch
dipsh*t. |
fixed
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