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Prog’s Most Derivative Moments!

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Topic: Prog’s Most Derivative Moments!

Posted By: akajazzman
Subject: Prog’s Most Derivative Moments!
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 13:28

I know. I’m a trouble maker, but lets view this as a test of tolerance within open communication!

Starcastle: Someone mentioned Starcastle in another thread, and it reminded me of just how much I couldn’t stop thinking “Yes, Yes, Yes” when I played my Starcastle CD for the first and last time. They clearly were very capable musicians, but took their study of Yes a little too far. I can't think of a more derivative band.

Eloy: Now I really like Eloy - have several of their albums -- so don’t yell at me. And I also really like their version of Pink Floyd’s Wish You Were Here album on their own Silent Cries and Might Echoes.

Black Sabbath: A great heavy metal band, but does anyone else thing that Iron Man may have taken a lick or two from 21^st Century Schizoid Man?

Replies:

Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 13:55

akajazzman wrote:

Black Sabbath: A great heavy metal band, but does anyone else thing that Iron Man may have taken a lick or two from 21^st Century Schizoid Man?

no, not remotely

Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:16

Does anyone else hear the riff from "Hocus Pocus" in the middle-tro of "Minstrel in the Gallery?"

More Martin mockery - The "Magus Perde" section of A Passion Play starts with a hook that is very reminiscent of "Jumping Jack Flash."

Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:32

The only two I know - and they're both prog related, are Deep Purple stealing "Child in Time" and Led Zeppelin stealing pretty much everything.

EDIT

Also, wtf at OP suggesting Black Sabbath stole riffs from 20th Century Schizoid Man. I'm assuming you mean the chromatic ones, in which case, THEY'RE FREAKING CHROMATIC. Every rising or descending chromatic riff sounds pretty much the same (regardless of what key it starts on). They've been used before Schizoid Man, loads.

Or if you mean the main riff, then I guess it is vaguely reminiscent, but seriously, if you think that vague reminiscence means they stole it, you have absolutely no concept of how music works.

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Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:35

Not even just little remotely? LOL! Lets start with them playing off of this alien schizoid/iron “man” motif. On Schizoid Man the voice is mechanical and distorted (like an iron man). They were two of the heaviest songs up to that point, they have similar riffs, rhythms and cadence. And then both break into a very similar extended guitar break with very similar notes after the basic song is established. Of course the KC song came first.

Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:37

Nathaniel607 wrote:

Led Zeppelin stealing pretty much everything.

Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:39

Most contemporary "prog".

Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:42

akajazzman wrote:

1) Seriously. Distorted voices is a minor coincidence. They WERE writing a song about IRON MAN. As in, a robot. As in, probably with some kind of distorted, robot-like voice.

2) They don't have similar riffs at all. The rhythm of the main riff is vaguely similar, the chromatic riffs are chromatic so of course they sound similar.

3) That's kind of a popular cadence.

4) Two songs with a guitar solo obviously means one was stolen.

I do not see how you can think this at all lol.

harmonium.ro wrote:

Most contemporary "prog".

Are you serious?

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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:46

Led Zep stealing everything? Wow that is very nearly funny.

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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:50

Nathaniel607 wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

Most contemporary "prog".

Are you serious?

Yes.

Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:55

Snow Dog wrote:

Led Zep stealing everything? Wow that is very nearly funny.

It's more like they borrowed it, soiled it , and returned it without cleaning. LOL

Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 14:57

Nathaniel607 wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

Most contemporary "prog".

Are you serious?

The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.

Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:03

I always thought that Paranoid's main riff is an extension of that middle riff Jimmy Page plays in Dazed & Confused.

Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:04

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

Most contemporary "prog".

Are you serious?

The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.

Oh Lordy.... the OP was a black and white flag to a colour blind bulls.h.i.t.t.e.r Wink

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Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:04

1) Seriously. Distorted voices is a minor coincidence. They WERE writing a song about IRON MAN. As in, a robot. As in, probably with some kind of distorted, robot-like voice.

And because they liked what KC had done, with the basic concept of this alientated/different man thing

2) They don't have similar riffs at all. The rhythm of the main riff is vaguely similar, the chromatic riffs are chromatic so of course they sound similar. AND

3) That's kind of a popular cadence.

Look, you're the one that said "no, not remotely" that they sound nothing lilke each other.

4) Two songs with a guitar solo obviously means one was stolen.

thats not what I said. I said "And then both break into a very similar extended guitar break with very similar notes after the basic song is established." Its more than just two separate guitar solos.

Thanks for your very kind and thoughtful remarks about "then you have absolutely no concept of how music works." I have 4000 LPs/CDs, and have been playing pretty good guitar for 30 years, but maybe you're right.

Much appreciated.

Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:45

ExittheLemming wrote:

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

Most contemporary "prog".

Are you serious?

The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.

Oh Lordy.... the OP was a black and white flag to a colour blind bulls.h.i.t.t.e.r Wink

Agreed. Harmonium was quite silly for withholding the absolute truth from the OP.

Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:48

1) Seriously. Distorted voices is a minor coincidence. They WERE writing a song about IRON MAN. As in, a robot. As in, probably with some kind of distorted, robot-like voice.

And because they liked what KC had done, with the basic concept of this alientated/different man thing

Of course! A song about an alienated person! That is so original it music be plagiarism.

2) They don't have similar riffs at all. The rhythm of the main riff is vaguely similar, the chromatic riffs are chromatic so of course they sound similar. AND

3) That's kind of a popular cadence.

Look, you're the one that said "no, not remotely" that they sound nothing lilke each other.

That was another guy. But still - the riffs are no where near plagiarism levels of similarity, just not completely different.

4) Two songs with a guitar solo obviously means one was stolen.

Same point. Guitar breaks/instrumental breaks in general are pretty damn common. I don't get how you can say they have similar notes... the Black Sabbath ones are pretty simple solos on the blues scale an over some chords, where as the King Crimson ones are fairly atonal madness over a crazy bass riff with some very dissonant noise in between.

Much appreciated.

Do you learn music theory? It doesn't matter how many albums you listen to, if you don't know theory then it doesn't matter. If you do know music theory, it's even more surprising you'd even consider Black Sabbath stole from King Crimson.

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.

Oh for f**ks sake.

Snow Dog wrote:

Led Zep stealing everything? Wow that is very nearly funny.

I'm not joking you know. They stole asstons of music. Here's a bunch of them;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiiY4ciKFQA" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiiY4ciKFQA

And a quote from from Jimmy Page;

Jimmy Page wrote:

[A]s far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case -- but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that -- which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing.

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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:49

akajazzman wrote:

Black Sabbath: A great heavy metal band, but does anyone else thing that Iron Man may have taken a lick or two from 21^st Century Schizoid Man?

Both licks are played on guitar. The similarities seem to end there.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:52

Nathaniel607 wrote:

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.

Oh for f**ks sake.

Prove me wrong. Oh, but that would imply that post-89 garage isn't absolutely derivative filth produced in a worthless digital age hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values. Poor you.

Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 15:58

If you don't reply to him he makes his obligatory post and then leaves.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:13

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.

Oh for f**ks sake.

Prove me wrong. Oh, but that would imply that post-89 garage isn't absolutely derivative filth produced in a worthless digital age hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values. Poor you.

Well, obviously, it's impossible since you are COMPLETELY set in your opinion. If I posted the most amazing music here, you would surely just immediately decry it.

Besides, what the hell do you mean by "hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values"?

Finally, derivative does not mean bad. Most, if not all music is in some way derivative. And prog especially so. I mean, it basically started as a fusion between rock and jazz (or rock but more complex), so it's completely derived.

I suppose if I was going to give it a shot though, I'd go for;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhXMH9Kdkw0" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhXMH9Kdkw0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fb9X49qGg" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2fb9X49qGg

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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:20

that's the best you can come up with? Those two bands aren't particularly original

Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:21

Nathaniel607 wrote:

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.

Oh for f**ks sake.

Prove me wrong. Oh, but that would imply that post-89 garage isn't absolutely derivative filth produced in a worthless digital age hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values. Poor you.

Well, obviously, it's impossible since you are COMPLETELY set in your opinion. If I posted the most amazing music here, you would surely just immediately decry it.

Besides, what the hell do you mean by "hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values"?

The notion of the post-modern pastiche is embedded in all post-89 thought. If in the eighties it was a novel and rather fringe position, it became the standard from the 90s on. The old modernist stance of looking forward and doing something new is effectively dead under the prevailing ethos of today. Its all about recycling old ideas in the current era, and technology allows any and all crumb-bums to imitate bygone classics.

Forward-looking pre-89 fusions involved the application of new technologies and tonal colours previously unimaginable within an ever more complex popular music context. Post-89 theft just samples everything and uses cheap digital doohickeys to replicate the sounds of yesteryear.

Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:22

Originally posted by <s>Ayn Rand</s> WalterDigsTunes

~~Ayn Rand~~ WalterDigsTunes wrote:

There is no place for whim in any human activity—if it is to be regarded as human. There is no place for the unknowable, the unintelligible, the undefinable, the non-objective in any human product. This side of an insane asylum, the actions of a human being are motivated by a conscious purpose; when they are not, they are of no interest to anyone outside a psychotherapist’s office. And when the practitioners of modern art declare that they don’t know what they are doing or what makes them do it, we should take their word for it and give them no further consideration.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:28

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

~~Ayn Rand~~ WalterDigsTunes wrote:

There is no place for whim in any human activity—if it is to be regarded as human. There is no place for the unknowable, the unintelligible, the undefinable, the non-objective in any human product. This side of an insane asylum, the actions of a human being are motivated by a conscious purpose; when they are not, they are of no interest to anyone outside a psychotherapist’s office. And when the practitioners of modern art declare that they don’t know what they are doing or what makes them do it, we should take their word for it and give them no further consideration.

The is no place for music in post-89 humanity- if it is to be regarded as music.

Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:29

I love you Walter

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 16:40

Triceratopsoil wrote:

that's the best you can come up with? Those two bands aren't particularly original

Uz Jseme is pretty original to me at least. Maybe Birds and Building, but a suspect he would dismiss that as ripoff jazz fusion. Maybe something like Godsticks, but they aren't overtly complex.

http://www.myspace.com/godsticksmusic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/godsticksmusic

What did you have in mind?

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

The notion of the post-modern pastiche is embedded in all post-89 thought. If in the eighties it was a novel and rather fringe position, it became the standard from the 90s on. The old modernist stance of looking forward and doing something new is effectively dead under the prevailing ethos of today. Its all about recycling old ideas in the current era, and technology allows any and all crumb-bums to imitate bygone classics.

What. You're saying, the entire collective conciousness of the WORLD changed in such a way that new music is not possible?

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Forward-looking pre-89 fusions involved the application of new technologies and tonal colours previously unimaginable within an ever more complex popular music context. Post-89 theft just samples everything and uses cheap digital doohickeys to replicate the sounds of yesteryear.

Oh my God. I cannot comprehend the madness you speak. You're saying that using a digital keyboard that can pretty much perfectly replicate an old moog is somehow worse than using the real thing? How can you state you believe in modernism and going forward and then condemn the usage of new technologies to make things cheaper and more simple?

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http://www.last.fm/user/Nathaniel607" rel="nofollow - My Last FM Profile

Posted By: A B Negative
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:15

Sabbath's Iron Man sounds more like KC's 21st Century Schizoid Man than Ozzy's version of 21st Century Schizoid Man does.

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"The disgusting stink of a too-loud electric guitar.... Now, that's my idea of a good time."

Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:21

"Do you learn music theory? It doesn't matter how many albums you listen to, if you don't know theory then it doesn't matter. If you do know music theory, it's even more surprising you'd even consider Black Sabbath stole from King Crimson"

Now the point of the thread of "derivative". I didn't say any of these bands stole, because I don't think they did. Its a continuum of influence, which includes using other bands licks or the way they put together a solo. And part where both songs take off with the guitars is more than just a guitar solo, the whole band changes up the songs similarly at that point.

That is what in fact made 21st Century SM so darn impactful at that time. Sure there was plenty of hard rock tunes before it, but nothing sounded, arranged, structured quite like it up to that point. So no, there weren't many songs that sounded like21st Century SM in late 1969. Then along comes Iron Man the next year that had similar points of reference to 21st Century SM .

BTW, I think Sabbath are better than 90% of the bands on this web site.

ANd yes, I learned enough theory, songs, scales and guitar chops to know a similar sounding song when I hear/play it.

Hey, I'm a nice guy. And Nathan you seem like a GREAT guy! We should hang out together sometime. Take care

Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:25

BTW, I think Sabbath are better than 90% of the bands on this web site.

ANd yes, I learned enough theory, songs, scales and guitar chops to know a similar sounding song when I hear/play it.

Hey, I'm a nice guy. And Nathan you seem like a GREAT guy! We should hang out together sometime. Take care

Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 17:31

Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 18:51

akajazzman wrote:

BTW, I think Sabbath are better than 90% of the bands on this web site.

ANd yes, I learned enough theory, songs, scales and guitar chops to know a similar sounding song when I hear/play it.

Hey, I'm a nice guy. And Nathan you seem like a GREAT guy! We should hang out together sometime. Take care

I guess I can see what you mean from an "inspired by" standpoint - but I still really don't see many similarities, but okay, :D.

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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 19:14

Nathaniel607 wrote:

What did you have in mind?

I don't know, Jean Louis or Negura Bunget maybe

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 22:12

I don't think Iron Man was at all influenced by Schizoid. Why should it be? Sabbath were already playing some of the songs off the eponymous debut in 1969. Iron Man was clearly a continuation of that style, no more. By extending your logic, we could argue that any kind of heavy rock music is derivative of Schizoid, which is a ridiculous position. Perhaps, we should say that Schizoid itself was then derivative of Sunshine of your love (Cream) because much more striking resemblances can be observed between that song and NIB. Wink

Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 22:33

This was a great Walter thread.

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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:13

21st Century Schizoid Man and Manic Depression by Hendrix always blended together in my mind, I'm not sure why but if I think of one song it always turns into the other.

Triceratopsoil wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

What did you have in mind?

I don't know, Jean Louis or Negura Bunget maybe

Meh, Jean Louis are just Die Like A Dog plus some avant rock and other various free jazz influences, and I don't know Negura Bunget but it's black metal so I'm sure I could say something dismissive if I cared enough to. :P

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Posted By: Tapfret
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:21

WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

Most contemporary "prog".

Are you serious?

The correct answer is ALL contemporary prog.

Sooo....for those of us age 43 and up ALL prog is contemporary prog and is derivative dross stolen by impetuous iconoclasts using modern gizmos for their electronic buffoonerizm.

Stick with the classics...2 apes clacking rocks together.

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https://bandcamp.com/tapfret" rel="nofollow - Bandcamp

Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:32

A B Negative wrote:

Sabbath's Iron Man sounds more like KC's 21st Century Schizoid Man than Ozzy's version of 21st Century Schizoid Man does.

Not to keep pushing this, but even Ozzy was so enamored with King Crimson he covered 21st CSM on a Cover Ep for a Ozzy Box set! He thanked King Crimson in the liner notes and said if it was not for KC then heavy metal would have not happened!

Sabbath did a lot for music. Blue Cheer, Deep Purple, Zep and others were hard rockin proto metal bands. But Sabbath in many ways was the first modern day sinister heavy metal band. So they did plenty. But I always wished that they had expanded a little more into developing Prog metal more. Now that would have been something.

Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:43

Wow, Ayn Rand was such a bitch.

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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 15 2011 at 23:53

Anthony H. wrote:

Wow, Ayn Rand was such a ~~bitch~~ dipsh*t.

fixed

Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 02:02

when one says 'contemporary prog', could they be meaning bands like TFK, Neal Morse, Transatlantic, DT, PoS, PT, (aka the more famous bands) or do they mean all music considered prog in post-89 land? if it's the former, i could kind of agree (though i love most of those bands, except PoS which i have a problem getting into). If it's the latter...

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Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 06:26

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"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken

Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 06:51

Back to the start of the thread:

I totally agree about Starcastle, but a s well as Marillion were doing Genesis music while Genesis were doing Abacab, I don't dislike them.

Eloy had several periods. Their first two albums have lot of Uriah Heep, then the moved to Pink Floyd, but their 80s stuff goes from Jethro Tull to Yes.

Sabbath and Schizoid? Just influence for me. Or was it 21st Century paranoid man, instead ? Smile

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Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 06:52

Triceratopsoil wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

What did you have in mind?

I don't know, Jean Louis or Negura Bunget maybe

Try Kayo Dot. That, sir, does not remind me of anything ever made before.

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Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 11:34

Starhammer, I hope that new image/icon/avatar you're is only temporary. That killer murdered a sweet little nine year old girl and five other people.

Posted By: hobocamp
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 12:19

Triceratopsoil wrote:

Anthony H. wrote:

Wow, Ayn Rand was such a ~~bitch~~
dipsh*t.

fixed

Meh (Atlas Shrugged)

Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 12:23

$\lambda_j = -\frac{4}{h^2} \sin(\frac{\pi (j-\frac{1}{2})}{2n + 1})^2$

$v_{i,j} = \sqrt{\frac{2}{n+0.5}} \cos(\frac{\pi (i-0.5) (2j - 1)}{2n + 1})$

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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 12:37

Slartibartfast wrote:

$\lambda_j = -\frac{4}{h^2} \sin(\frac{\pi (j-\frac{1}{2})}{2n + 1})^2$

$v_{i,j} = \sqrt{\frac{2}{n+0.5}} \cos(\frac{\pi (i-0.5) (2j - 1)}{2n + 1})$

Slarty - at long last, someone provides the world with a massive mathematical equation which disproves Walter's stuff & nonsense once and for all Wacko

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Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:19

akajazzman wrote:

Starhammer, I hope that new image/icon/avatar you're is only temporary. That killer murdered a sweet little nine year old girl and five other people.

I'll remove it now if you're offended. Thanks for the heads up.

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Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:30

After listening to as much music as I have for as long as I have, I find something familiar in everything I listen to. No matter what it is, it will remind me of something else. To paraphrase Ian Anderson, "It's all the same notes just organized by a different monkey."

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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"

Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:42

I love how this little scrap is the equivalent of the 12 year olds arguing over which band is the most 'br00tal' on the Kerrang forums ... Just with older people ... who think this is a civilised argument

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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:46

Starhammer wrote:

Triceratopsoil wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

What did you have in mind?

I don't know, Jean Louis or Negura Bunget maybe

Try Kayo Dot. That, sir, does not remind me of anything ever made before.

eh, their current avant-prog style is somewhat reminiscent of some other, older things. Especially Coyote

Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 13:52

Nothing is original.

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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:42

Regarding Led Zep -

It is customary, encouraged even, for blues musicians to adapt and develop each other's melodies and chord progressions. In the then-recent advent of Blues-Rock, such a principle applies doubly so with the new rock element there to play around with. Page commited no crime just as Emerson didn't with his Copland and Brubeck.

Anyway they aren't a prog band!

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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:46

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Nothing is original.

In a way, yes.

But everything which seems original seems original because, despite having influences, they are built-upon with fresh ideas, or fused with things that haven't been fused before. This is a creative process and therefore creates something new, which could be described as original.

Everything is slightly original, some things more, but nothing is TOTALLY original.

Lock a man in a room all his life with nothing but a piano: that would produce something very original! (but highly-likely to be a load of bollocks)

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Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 14:52

thehallway wrote:

Lock a man in a room all his life with nothing but a piano: that would produce something very original! (but highly-likely to be a load of bollocks)

He'd probably invent furniture polish.

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Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 15:30

thehallway wrote:

Regarding Led Zep -

Anyway they aren't a prog band!

Errr... but you're supposed to give credit! There's no excuse. They should have either made it a cover, or at least given credit (and royalties).

I agree with you that it's as much of a crime as when Emerson did it with Brubeck, but you seem to think it wasn't a crime for some mad reason. It's just lucky that Brubeck wasn't too bothered about it. Not too sure about Copeland though.

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Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 15:45

Starhammer wrote:

akajazzman wrote:

Starhammer, I hope that new image/icon/avatar you're is only temporary. That killer murdered a sweet little nine year old girl and five other people.

I'll remove it now if you're offended. Thanks for the heads up.

Thanks. Not offended just that his face makes me so angry. I realize he's mentally ill, but I still hope somone kills him.

Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 15:57

this further proves that progressive rock sucks. That's why I only listen to prog metal.

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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 16:08

akajazzman wrote:

Starhammer wrote:

akajazzman wrote:

Starhammer, I hope that new image/icon/avatar you're is only temporary. That killer murdered a sweet little nine year old girl and five other people.

I'll remove it now if you're offended. Thanks for the heads up.

Thanks. Not offended just that his face makes me so angry. I realize he's mentally ill, but I still hope somone kills him.

This statement is more offensive than Starhammer's previous avatar

Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 16:28

Triceratopsoil wrote:

akajazzman wrote:

Starhammer wrote:

akajazzman wrote:

Starhammer, I hope that new image/icon/avatar you're is only temporary. That killer murdered a sweet little nine year old girl and five other people.

I'll remove it now if you're offended. Thanks for the heads up.

Thanks. Not offended just that his face makes me so angry. I realize he's mentally ill, but I still hope somone kills him.

This statement is more offensive than Starhammer's previous avatar

seconded.

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Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 16:35

No Doubt borrowed the intro to Breakfast in America, on their biggest hit Don't Speak (+ most of the song sounds like BiA)

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Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 18:17

Allow me to "bump" this thread with a short intermission. Someone mentioned at one point how this thread was so civilized, albeit lacking substance. I concur, providing a selection of some of the most marvelous examples of argumentation on this thread. Without naming names, here's today edition of "PA in a nutshell":

Most contemporary "prog".
Are you serious?
Yes.

Well, glad we've got that settled. No examples were harmed during this representation.

Prove me wrong. Oh, but that would imply that post-89 garage isn't absolutely derivative filth produced in a worthless digital age hamstrung by atrocious post-modern values. Poor you.

Wow, so many things to unpack. Let's go with the obvious, then: since when is it a habit in logical discussions to assert something and than ask of your opponent to prove the contrary?

that's the best you can come up with? Those two bands aren't particularly original

Aaaand it just keeps going. That's some mighty solid argumentation there. Oh, wait. No it's not.

Try Kayo Dot. That, sir, does not remind me of anything ever made before.
eh, their current avant-prog style is somewhat reminiscent of some other, older things. Especially Coyote

Those things being? Actually, don't tell us, we really don't want to know. Seriously, just keep it to yourself. Doing all of us a favor.

While a lot of this thread was in jest, would it be so hard to preserve some common sense even when enacting a mockery? There will always be useful information waiting to pop up, and this thread is particularly prone to that; somebody just has to invite that information in (much like you would do with a vampire).

Alas, this thread reminds me of a lot of other threads. Truly derivative.

Posted By: JS19
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 18:38

CCVP wrote:

this further proves that progressive rock sucks. That's why I only listen to prog metal.

While I love prog metal, this is stupid ...

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Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 19:18

JS19 wrote:

CCVP wrote:

this further proves that progressive rock sucks. That's why I only listen to prog metal.

While I love prog metal, this is stupid ...

Stupidly brilliant, you mean?

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Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 19:25

CCVP wrote:

Triceratopsoil wrote:

akajazzman wrote:

Starhammer wrote:

akajazzman wrote:

Starhammer, I hope that new image/icon/avatar you're is only temporary. That killer murdered a sweet little nine year old girl and five other people.

I'll remove it now if you're offended. Thanks for the heads up.

Thanks. Not offended just that his face makes me so angry. I realize he's mentally ill, but I still hope somone kills him.

This statement is more offensive than Starhammer's previous avatar

seconded.

Oh please, give me a break.

Posted By: hobocamp
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 19:30

Asphalt wrote:

Alas, this thread reminds me of a lot of other threads. Truly derivative.

Well said. I hope you'll drop in on some more threads. They can be informative from time to time.

Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 19:30

akajazzman wrote:

Oh please, give me a break.

No, stop being so crude

Asphalt wrote:

Allow me to "bump" this thread with a short intermission.
etc.

No doubt you were very proud of that post

Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 19:34

Triceratopsoil wrote:

akajazzman wrote:

Oh please, give me a break.

No, stop being so crude

Asphalt wrote:

Allow me to "bump" this thread with a short intermission.
etc.

No doubt you were very proud of that post

I'm sorry if my country is in mourning and I insulted a killer. You're right.

Posted By: Asphalt
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 20:08

Triceratopsoil wrote:

No doubt you were very proud of that post

Yes, yes I was. It's all show-off-manship around here anyway. But more importantly, I was also hoping people would start giving more examples and more reasons for their opinions. Being a smart-ass is not incompatible with having a genuine interest in a discussion about derivative moments in prog music. But it seems that expecting good will was silly of me.

Let me be less pedantic and more to the point then:

What are the influences that people see in Kayo Dot? I'm not saying there aren't any, just that "derivative" implies a rather hefty amount of non-original material. I am of the opinion Kayo Dot is one of the rather original prog outfits nowadays. Surely, they have their moments that may sound like other artists, but I am not aware of them and would genuinely be interested in finding out what those artists are. Who knows, I might check them out and the world will be a better place.

How is Negura Bunget so very original? I love the band, but in terms of black metal tropes it does not seem a truly remarkable departure from Ulver's Bergtatt, Burzum's Filosofem or other 90s French atmospheric BM outfits.

What exactly is so unoriginal about UJD and Frogg Cafe? What are their (maybe-not-so-)obvious influences and how much they weigh? Any particular moments in their songs that spring associations to mind?

When you talk about modern prog bands, do you include bands like Arcturus, GY!BE, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, The Mars Volta or Ved Buens Ende? They surely have discernible influences, but would you go so far as to call them derivative? And if so, to what extent would you say these acts are more derivative than old prog acts that drew their influences from blues, jazz and contemporary music?

Those are the kinds of questions that, if answered, would make this thread so much more interesting (and myself so much prouder of wandering on the PA threads).

Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: January 16 2011 at 21:44

akajazzman wrote:

Triceratopsoil wrote:

akajazzman wrote:

Oh please, give me a break.

No, stop being so crude

Asphalt wrote:

Allow me to "bump" this thread with a short intermission.
etc.

No doubt you were very proud of that post

I'm sorry if my country is in mourning and I insulted a killer. You're right.

LOLwhat? Over 11k people are killed in the USA by gunfire alone every year and you claim the whole country is mourning over what one guy did? While what he did was reprovable by all means, what you are doing now is plainly obtuse.

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Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 09:30

Asphalt wrote:

Triceratopsoil wrote:

No doubt you were very proud of that post

Ahh, if only, if only. I would respond to some of this myself, if I really cared. I like all sorts of music, all of it no doubt the product of thousands of years of humans making music, therefore, mostly derivative.

But, you know, it wasn't that many years ago I would have spouted my opinions about what bands were derivative and what bands were not as if it was somehow true to everyone.

Yet, somehow I keep being drawn to these types of threads, possibly only to ensure that Walter has posted and all is right with the world...............

Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 09:31

Asphalt wrote:

Triceratopsoil wrote:

No doubt you were very proud of that post

So, you have all those (good) questions, but you don't ask them, and prefer to post "smart-ass" comments about other people's behavior. LOL Wink

Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 10:59

Asphalt wrote:

Triceratopsoil wrote:

No doubt you were very proud of that post

Nice post! I agree with this but I also want to say that people seem to be concentrating on what bands "sound" like as opposed to actual composition.

Walter seems to want bands to invent new instruments and notes every time they write a song, but just because a composition uses the same instruments, or even the same textures or the same chords, doesn't mean it isn't original.

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Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:27

Nathaniel607 wrote:

The only two I know - and they're both prog related, are Deep Purple stealing "Child in Time" and Led Zeppelin stealing pretty much everything.

Do you mean that track on It's A Beautiful Day's eponymous album? I nearly choked when I heard it! Did they sue Purple? they should've done

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never eat anything bigger than your head

Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:27

Nathaniel607 wrote:

Nice post! I agree with this but I also want to say that people seem to be concentrating on what bands "sound" like as opposed to actual composition.

Good observation. I think, rather than the scene being generally highly derivative, what we are seeing is a lot of fans don't mind the bands being derivative if they evoke a certain kind of sound they like. So, derivative and more original albums alike have less divergent ratings or even appreciation and we are then faced with a sea of highly rated, highly derivative bands. Also, what some people may be addressing is more a lack of brilliance. From what modern prog I have heard, there's not much I'd consider brilliant, though quite a lot that I'd consider good or very good. But just because an album is not brilliant doesn't mean there's no effort to be original on the part of the songwriter(s).

Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:31

The Porcupine Tree song "Time Flies" on the incident (which I happen to like) maages to rip off not only "Dogs" but "Sheep" as well from Floyd's animals although it's possible with Steve Wilson this might be intentional given the subject matter of the song

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never eat anything bigger than your head

Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:34

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:37

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

No

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never eat anything bigger than your head

Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:39

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Correct.

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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:44

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:47

Another track I like but which smells a bit of someone else's work is Rainbow's Stargazer - It's not a rip-off but you definitely get the feeling that Blackmore was playing close attention to what Page was doing with Led Zep, specifically "Kashmir"

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never eat anything bigger than your head

Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:52

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny!

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never eat anything bigger than your head

Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:07

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

Thanks for nuancing Thumbs Up

Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:09

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

Thanks for nuancing Thumbs Up

no probs! it's important to be concise

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never eat anything bigger than your head

Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:25

Nathaniel607 wrote:

thehallway wrote:

Regarding Led Zep -

Anyway they aren't a prog band!

Errr... but you're supposed to give credit! There's no excuse. They should have either made it a cover, or at least given credit (and royalties).

I would rather suspect Grant, the manager who couldn't stand giving away even a dime, of not giving the full information when licensing Zepp's music, than suspecting the band of trying to cover what they (so obviously) borrowed, reinterpreted, etc.

Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:40

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close.

Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:42

harmonium.ro wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

thehallway wrote:

Regarding Led Zep -

Anyway they aren't a prog band!

Errr... but you're supposed to give credit! There's no excuse. They should have either made it a cover, or at least given credit (and royalties).

I've never heard about this Grant guy, but it sounds like he could of contributed. To be honest though, I still think Page and Plant are pretty dodgy. Did you read that quote? It did seem like Page and Plant were deliberately trying to cover it up (changing the lyrics and whatnot). And remember - not all of them are that obvious. A lot of them are pretty damn obscure bands.

Totally unrelated to this statement, but have you heard this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTsvs-pAGDc

Originally posted by </span><span =apple-style-span= style=line-height: 18px; font-size: 15px; font-weight: bold; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px; >timburlane

timburlane wrote:

Do you mean that track on It's A Beautiful Day's eponymous album? I nearly choked when I heard it! Did they sue Purple? they should've done

Yep. They've admitted to stealing it... well, they said they were "inspired" by it, lol.

infandous wrote:

Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close.

But that's not good. If he thought he'd get sued for it, he should of asked for permission or paid royalties. Not just try and cover it up...

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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:43

infandous wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.

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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:45

Nathaniel607 wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

Nathaniel607 wrote:

thehallway wrote:

Regarding Led Zep -

Anyway they aren't a prog band!

Errr... but you're supposed to give credit! There's no excuse. They should have either made it a cover, or at least given credit (and royalties).

Peter Grant was a man mountain, both physically and in terms of bulldozing his way to what he and the band wanted, and not a great deal stood in his way. On one occasion, he occasioned GBH. The little matter of "inspiration" certainly wouldn't have stopped him.

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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:46

lazland wrote:

infandous wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.

I don't remember touching this issue, though, Steve, I only recall us not agreeing on how good the album is (it bored the hell out of you and you found it a step in the wrong direction if I'm not wrong).

Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:48

harmonium.ro wrote:

lazland wrote:

infandous wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.

My short term memory is appalling Alex, but you are definitely correct in recalling the "boring" issue. My apologies if I have not remembered the "plagiarism" argument correctly. However, I stand by previous comments I have made regarding Wilson being lucky not to have the arse sued off of him.

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Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

Posted By: infandous
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:50

lazland wrote:

infandous wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.

Here is the exact quote (and link to the interview): "So you hear a very deliberate reference to Pink Floyd for example. The first album I ever bought was Animals. There's a riff in there that's very similar, just different enough to not get sued."

http://www.dprp.net/specials/2009_porcupinetree/

I am sure other bands have done this, and maybe never acknowledged it, so at least Wilson admits to it. Of course, he also claims that he always gets annoyed when other songs of his get compared to Floyd (like The Sky Moves Sideways.......which I think sounds even more like Floyd than Time Flies, especially the first several minutes).

But really, all music is a result of building on music that came before it, even (and especially) music from the 60's and 70's. Certainly prog bands were never shy about adding uncredited classical melodies to their music (and not just ELP).

Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:56

infandous wrote:

lazland wrote:

infandous wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.

Well, yeah, but it doesn't usually matter if they're dead people with not patent on them anyway. I'm think anyone's allowed to quote Back of whatever. Obviously with 20th/21st century composes it's different (and certain older ones who still have estates collecting royalties), but ELP were luck again with Copeland... (I recall him saying he liked it, but did not understand why they placed atonal solos in between two fairly tonal sections, lol)

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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 13:08

lazland wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

lazland wrote:

infandous wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

timburlane wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Explain then.

You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.

No need to apologize.

To me, the "Time Flies" is a clear case of paying tribute in good faith, and therefore I'm not surprised nobody sued PT. And I'm sure Gilmour liked it if he heard it (not sure about Waters though LOL

).

If anyone read the "There's a riff in there that's very similar, just different enough to not get sued" quote as in "I wanted to copy PF but didn't want to get sued", then, well, I'd have no further comment Wacko

Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 13:15

ELP released the Barbarian on their début album and Emerson claims he never bothered to credit Bartok's Allegro Barbaro (on which it's based) because he felt they had changed it around so much it was barely recognisable. Although ELP were clearly gauche in this regard, to be fair, the plagiarism only sticks out as 'blatant' on the quieter piano section in the middle. (It was Bartok's wife I recall, who contacted ELP's publishers advising them of this oversight)

Similarly, Knife Edge is almost entirely based on Sinfonietta by Janacek (apart from the Bach Italian concerto they quote at the end) and I think ELP were challenged by the composer's estate over copyright infringement on this one as well.

What's interesting about copyright law is that:

1 - ideas cannot be copyrighted (those ideas have to first undergo fixation in a replicable medium e.g. manuscript or recording etc
2 - song titles cannot be copyrighted e.g. I can write a song called 'Karn Evil 9' and no-one can touch me as long as the melodies and lyrics are not deemed to be copied
3 - I think the original composer's exclusive rights pass into the public domain 50 (or 70 depending on the jurisdiction) years after their death.

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Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 13:21

Well, I'm glad that's all sorted out then

Originally posted by </SPAN><SPAN style=LINE-HEIGHT: 18px; FONT-SIZE: 15px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 1px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 1px =apple-style-span>timburlane

timburlane wrote:

Do you mean that track on It's A Beautiful Day's eponymous album? I nearly choked when I heard it! Did they sue Purple? they should've done

Yep. They've admitted to stealing it... well, they said they were "inspired" by it, lol.

[/QUOTE]

"Inspired"! that Deep Purple! they've got a nerve!

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never eat anything bigger than your head

Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 15:04

ExittheLemming wrote:

ELP released the Barbarian on their début album and Emerson claims he never bothered to credit Bartok's Allegro Barbaro (on which it's based) because he felt they had changed it around so much it was barely recognisable. Although ELP were clearly gauche in this regard, to be fair, the plagiarism only sticks out as 'blatant' on the quieter piano section in the middle. (It was Bartok's wife I recall, who contacted ELP's publishers advising them of this oversight)

Similarly, Knife Edge is almost entirely based on Sinfonietta by Janacek (apart from the Bach Italian concerto they quote at the end) and I think ELP were challenged by the composer's estate over copyright infringement on this one as well.

What's interesting about copyright law is that:

1 - ideas cannot be copyrighted (those ideas have to first undergo fixation in a replicable medium e.g. manuscript or recording etc
2 - song titles cannot be copyrighted e.g. I can write a song called 'Karn Evil 9' and no-one can touch me as long as the melodies and lyrics are not deemed to be copied
3 - I think the original composer's exclusive rights pass into the public domain 50 (or 70 depending on the jurisdiction) years after their death.

Exactly and this is why copyright laws are murky, and uneducated blues musicians are not going to care much when the whole reason their song was copied anyway was because somebody liked it.

What's more, with a band like Led Zep, it is likely that the plagiarism (if you call it that) actually gave the original artists MORE recognition and subsequent revenue than if they hadn't have copied. LZ are so famous that WiIlie Dixon has probably sold more records than he may have without Page coming along and adapting Whole Lotta Love!

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Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 15:14

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Agreed. The only stuff that was "ripped off" were the two opening chords of Dogs. The time sig is different (6/8, not 4/4 like dogs), the picking is different, etc etc etc.

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Posted By: timburlane
Date Posted: January 17 2011 at 15:19

Starhammer wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".

Agreed. The only stuff that was "ripped off" were the two opening chords of Dogs. The time sig is different (6/8, not 4/4 like dogs), the picking is different, etc etc etc.

yes, yes, yes, okay I was wrong! I'm sorry!

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never eat anything bigger than your head