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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: How many members actually read about Prog?
    Posted: August 13 2010 at 07:22

I feel  we getting an increase in the number of threads with titles such as:

what was the first prog album,
was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,
is jazz  prog?
 
etc. ad nausem, that suggest the authors have not bothered to read the copious amounts of (non-thread) information carefully written and available here, let alone attempted to read any of the books postered here and reviewed. What is worse the reponses usually don't direct the originator to points of references. So is there a tendency here  to argue rather than educate??? The numbers of strikes wrt to the collection of threads largely on books here, would part support my thought that there is only limited interest in reading books that at least have some half decend research done in their preparations. It is clear with some that they have come to expand their knowledge wrt prog especially our younger members, but too often many of the responses to "recommend me...." suggest that a novice should be dropped in at the deep end amongst artists/albums, rather thinking that a novice should "walk before he/she can run" - which for instance happens too often wrt jazz recommendations. (Perhaps such requests need an initial question in response,to be answered by the originator: 'what music do you like?"... and from that provide recommendationsof music of a new genre that  has at least loose connections. You'll note to a recent request on jazz albums, I suggested the discographies found in a couple of books, which tend to be fairly neutral and constructed in their reviews, than those produced by keen PA fan promoting their favourites here).
 
In the heyday of progressive rock (late 60's and early 70's) , it was said the music found a home with middle class teens and 20's , and especially those who were doing some form of higher education. Hence a suggestion: prog was more popular with those who might be thought to be 'intelligent' and enquirying - indeed the perahps the more argumentative part of the youth population? So whilst the following might reflect an old man's arrogance: what happened to self enquiry, and so do others find a malaise, a naivity? Further, do you treat  some threads with contempt and so avoid them like the plague although otherwise believe the subject matter is up your street?


Edited by Dick Heath - August 13 2010 at 07:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 07:32
Good point. When I found PA a few years back I read all the genre definitions, some of the "Documents" (I haven't seen the "Documents" mentioned at all in the last couple of years), and lots and lots of review for classic, genre defining albums. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 07:41
I have some books about progressive rock at home, and have been reading music magazine for years. Now that the Internet is so widespread and readily available (at least in Western countries), I believe there is really no excuse for such lack of information. There are sites dedicated to progressive rock in quite a few languages besides English (I know of at least three or four in Italian), and some of them offer very good reading material on the history and development of the genre.

Personally, I believe it is high time to tighten up the criteria for starting threads in the forums - even at risk of losing members. The general level of the discussion is plummeting, and I have noticed a worrying increase in the number of negative threads, which are nothing more than an excuse for people to indulge in mindless bashing. And I am saying that as an ordinary member who would like to participate in interesting discussion, not as a Collaborator.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 08:02
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:


was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,


I think this a good case for argument rather than reading and I think you missed the point.

For a start the thread starter new that it is historically impossible for it to be so but it lead to an interesting discussion on wether it otherwise fits the criteria.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 08:20
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:


was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,


I think this a good case for argument rather than reading and I think you missed the point.
 
 
I don't think so, if the original meaning of neo-prog is remembered - a somewhat sarcastic  use of  'neo', to implying a new band using  progressive musical style(s) previously laid down by one of progressive rock originators, e.g. Starcastle echoing Yes, Marillion initially having echoes of Genesis, It Bites  echoes of Genesis and UK, Spocks Beard at various moments echoing Genesis , GG, Yes  even Deep Purple.......
 
Hence by definition how can an original progressive rock band be 'neo'? Sit back on their laurels and continue to mine their particular motherlode, (often to a point of exhaustion), whilst adapting slightly because personnel loss  and/or  for changes of target audiences, for sure. What has been said to be  a 'cliche' of themselves.
 
Besides, one reason for adding this as a topic within the book  thread, was to emphasise my feeling  that not  enough background research is done before folks  start a discussion on too flimsy/under-researched evidence. DiscussWink


Edited by Dick Heath - August 13 2010 at 08:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 08:55
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:


was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,


I think this a good case for argument rather than reading and I think you missed the point.
 
 
I don't think so, if the original meaning of neo-prog is remembered - a somewhat sarcastic  use of  'neo', to implying a new band using  progressive musical style(s) previously laid down by one of progressive rock originators, e.g. Starcastle echoing Yes, Marillion initially having echoes of Genesis, It Bites  echoes of Genesis and UK, Spocks Beard at various moments echoing Genesis , GG, Yes  even Deep Purple.......
 
Hence by definition how can an original progressive rock band be 'neo'? Sit back on their laurels and continue to mine their particular motherlode, (often to a point of exhaustion), whilst adapting slightly because personnel loss  and/or  for changes of target audiences, for sure. What has been said to be  a 'cliche' of themselves.
 
Besides, one reason for adding this as a topic within the book  thread, was to emphasise my feeling  that not  enough background research is done before folks  start a discussion on too flimsy/under-researched evidence. DiscussWink

The only point of that thread is that it sounds like it could be Neo...not that it is.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 09:28
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


The only point of that thread is that it sounds like it could be Neo...not that it is.
 
 
Now I'm lost Confused - hence avoidance (at least until this point of time) entering into that specific debate.LOL
 
Now discuss whether the originator might have dug up enough answers before starting that particular thread - which appears to generated some tetchy asides which detour from the debate
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 09:35
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


The only point of that thread is that it sounds like it could be Neo...not that it is.
 
 
Now I'm lost Confused - hence avoidance (at least until this point of time) entering into that specific debate.LOL
 
Now discuss whether the originator might have dug up enough answers before starting that particular thread - which appears to generated some tetchy asides which detour from the debate

Well..the tetchy asides appears to come from people who dislike Neo and don't want the Lamb sullied with that tag.

The originator...I think....knows quite a lot about the subject.

Try to think of it as a philosophical debate.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 09:41
Speaking of the Lamb thread, the fact that I did read some stuff means that I stumbled across this issue in the past. Others have felt the same way. I once read (I'm not sure where, but it might have been one of Ivan's texts about Symph Prog) that between classic Symph and Neo there is what was called "the second wave of Symphonic Prog" which paved the way for Neo and which started at about The Lamb / Voyage Of The Acolyte. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 09:53
I think lots of us read about prog but those topics are just something that don't have a definitive answer and are easily debatable

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 10:35
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Try to think of it as a philosophical debate.Wink
 
Yes I suppose there we have an  debate on an abstract aspect of an abstract subject, i.e. music. Smile
 
But guys, I trying to get a philosophical discussion/debate going on knowing your subject in part, by book research.....hence expanding your knowledge to be able to debate from a more complete and solid ('sound 'might be a better word in the circumstances)  basis.


Edited by Dick Heath - August 13 2010 at 10:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 11:07
Very good point. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about  musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
After that, reading books about Prog Rocks style and genres maybe is good. You know, every writers analys subjects with their opinions and their opinion may based on their privet motives.
We can talk about "Symphonic" and "Neo" 1000 days! Some of difinitions isn't correct exactly and difinitions based on writer's "point of view".
Music is listening procces not reading. I know reading books have many benefits( and I read books ) but this kind of books (about sub genres) isn't good refrences because these difinitions not acceptable for all. Somany sites and books exist about Prog genres with different difinitions and for younger fans is very difficult to choose correct one. And unfortunately young Prog fans(not all of them) dont  patience enough.
Some of young prog fans think, with listening Prog and talk about that in forums they seem intellectual. They talk about subjects without undrestand that and they react and insult to any opposite opinions. They attack to bands and artists without shame. Now you say to them " Hey guys please reading books then talk about subjects". I dont think this works. Sorry for long writing.


Edited by O666 - August 13 2010 at 11:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:03

Prog and rock in general, as much as I can put my hands on.  But we can't be too elitist or stand-offish to new people, if they don't have much experience with music, what you do is be friendly and help them in their education.    We sure don't want "thread police" dictating what people can and can't talk about.  As long as people aren't breaking any rules or posting in the wrong area, they will talk about what they wish to talk about.  Scroll on by if not interestedWink

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:21
I think the first book about "prog " was Rocking The Classics : English Proressive Rock and  by Edward Macan. Macan is a university prof and this was more of a scholarly work. that went into a lot of music theory. I've also read more recently Emerson's book, Bruford's book and Wakeman's hillarious Grumpy Old Rock Star I also have McLaughlin's biography. I think many of my reviews reflect that I've read a lot about the subject over the years since the mid 16th century when God created me.

I read so much I can't confine it to just reading about progrock. I'd rather just listen to it. I think it'ts not something that I'd get to academic over. It's more of a pastime for me . An escape.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:26
I think Mr Heath raises a number of good points here.

More surely can be done to direct contributors to the copious amounts of information available on the site to avoid excessive reinventing of the wheel.

I might add, perhaps digressively, that it's quite normal here to see people contribute to a thread without having read what has already been written in the thread, let alone not reading what has already been written and stored (re: definitions and histories) on the site.  But that's just a personal peeve.

On a more positive note, it might be said that while argumentative strands take up some space and attention on the threads, much education occurs as well.  I constantly see contributors providing histories or introducing the names of lesser known bands and genres.  I know that I've definitely learned some things along the way!   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:30
Originally posted by questionsneverknown questionsneverknown wrote:

I think Mr Heath raises a number of good points here.

More surely can be done to direct contributors to the copious amounts of information available on the site to avoid excessive reinventing of the wheel.

I might add, perhaps digressively, that it's quite normal here to see people contribute to a thread without having read what has already been written in the thread, let alone not reading what has already been written and stored (re: definitions and histories) on the site.  But that's just a personal peeve.

On a more positive note, it might be said that while argumentative strands take up some space and attention on the threads, much education occurs as well.  I constantly see contributors providing histories or introducing the names of lesser known bands and genres.  I know that I've definitely learned some things along the way!   
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:46
Prog to me  is ultimately about freedom of expression.  The more you define these freedoms of expression the more you define them out of existence.  It is good to have references to help guide younger prog fans such as myself, but like O666 said music is a listening process not reading.

 I have a degree in Music Composition and Theory but I don't believe music academia is necessary to understand or appreciate prog.  I have played with guitarists whom don't know a lick of theory but they can play along to anything and everything.  In fact I admit one of them (Brian Hudson) can out play me any day of the week but he doesn't even know his circle of fifths. 

I have coworkers whom love King Crimson, Genesis, Frank Zappa, Henry Cow, VDGG, and more but have never read anything about prog.  Should that make their opinion unworthy?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:13
Originally posted by besotoxico besotoxico wrote:

Prog to me  is ultimately about freedom of expression.  The more you define these freedoms of expression the more you define them out of existence.  It is good to have references to help guide younger prog fans such as myself, but like O666 said music is a listening process not reading.

 I have a degree in Music Composition and Theory but I don't believe music academia is necessary to understand or appreciate prog.  I have played with guitarists whom don't know a lick of theory but they can play along to anything and everything.  In fact I admit one of them (Brian Hudson) can out play me any day of the week but he doesn't even know his circle of fifths. 

I have coworkers whom love King Crimson, Genesis, Frank Zappa, Henry Cow, VDGG, and more but have never read anything about prog.  Should that make their opinion unworthy?

I think I'm hearing two distinct responses coming from the original post:
1) People are starting a forum or poll (or simply posting) without having read what has already been written and posted here on the archive;
2) People should read more about prog in general and be better informed before posting.

The second point is, I believe, ideal, but I can see why it would be debatable (and damned hard to enforce!).  The first, however, I think gets to something more fundamental that shapes the quality and ethos of what's done here.  An eminently reasonable point. 
The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love

The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough.

--Robyn Hitchcock
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:15
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

 
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Hey, I just noticed your avatar--Over the Rhine's a great band!  Nice choice.
The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love

The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:25
I have absolutely no interest in reading a book about prog or jazz. For the history of the genres I have the internet, and what makes the opinion of some guy who wrote a book better than somebody's opinion on this forum? Especially since something like "essential jazz albums" is hardly arcane knowledge.
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