How many members actually read about Prog?
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70263
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Topic: How many members actually read about Prog?
Posted By: Dick Heath
Subject: How many members actually read about Prog?
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 07:22
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I feel we getting an increase in the number of threads with titles such as: what was the first prog album,
was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,
is jazz prog?
etc. ad nausem, that suggest the authors have not bothered to read the copious amounts of (non-thread) information carefully written and available here, let alone attempted to read any of the books postered here and reviewed. What is worse the reponses usually don't direct the originator to points of references. So is there a tendency here to argue rather than educate??? The numbers of strikes wrt to the collection of threads largely on books here, would part support my thought that there is only limited interest in reading books that at least have some half decend research done in their preparations. It is clear with some that they have come to expand their knowledge wrt prog especially our younger members, but too often many of the responses to "recommend me...." suggest that a novice should be dropped in at the deep end amongst artists/albums, rather thinking that a novice should "walk before he/she can run" - which for instance happens too often wrt jazz recommendations. (Perhaps such requests need an initial question in response,to be answered by the originator: 'what music do you like?"... and from that provide recommendationsof music of a new genre that has at least loose connections. You'll note to a recent request on jazz albums, I suggested the discographies found in a couple of books, which tend to be fairly neutral and constructed in their reviews, than those produced by keen PA fan promoting their favourites here).
In the heyday of progressive rock (late 60's and early 70's) , it was said the music found a home with middle class teens and 20's , and especially those who were doing some form of higher education. Hence a suggestion: prog was more popular with those who might be thought to be 'intelligent' and enquirying - indeed the perahps the more argumentative part of the youth population? So whilst the following might reflect an old man's arrogance: what happened to self enquiry, and so do others find a malaise, a naivity? Further, do you treat some threads with contempt and so avoid them like the plague although otherwise believe the subject matter is up your street? ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Replies:
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 07:32
| Good point. When I found PA a few years back I read all the genre definitions, some of the "Documents" (I haven't seen the "Documents" mentioned at all in the last couple of years), and lots and lots of review for classic, genre defining albums. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 07:41
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I have some books about progressive rock at home, and have been reading music magazine for years. Now that the Internet is so widespread and readily available (at least in Western countries), I believe there is really no excuse for such lack of information. There are sites dedicated to progressive rock in quite a few languages besides English (I know of at least three or four in Italian), and some of them offer very good reading material on the history and development of the genre. Personally, I believe it is high time to tighten up the criteria for starting threads in the forums - even at risk of losing members. The general level of the discussion is plummeting, and I have noticed a worrying increase in the number of negative threads, which are nothing more than an excuse for people to indulge in mindless bashing. And I am saying that as an ordinary member who would like to participate in interesting discussion, not as a Collaborator. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 08:02
I think this a good case for argument rather than reading and I think you missed the point. For a start the thread starter new that it is historically impossible for it to be so but it lead to an interesting discussion on wether it otherwise fits the criteria. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Dick Heath wrote:Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 08:20
Hence by definition how can an original progressive rock band be 'neo'? Sit back on their laurels and continue to mine their particular motherlode, (often to a point of exhaustion), whilst adapting slightly because personnel loss and/or for changes of target audiences, for sure. What has been said to be a 'cliche' of themselves.
Besides, one reason for adding this as a topic within the book thread, was to emphasise my feeling that not enough background research is done before folks start a discussion on too flimsy/under-researched evidence. Discuss  ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 08:55
The only point of that thread is that it sounds like it could be Neo...not that it is. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 09:28
Now I'm lost
 - hence avoidance (at least until this point of time) entering into that specific debate. Now discuss whether the originator might have dug up enough answers before starting that particular thread - which appears to generated some tetchy asides which detour from the debate ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 09:35
Well..the tetchy asides appears to come from people who dislike Neo and don't want the Lamb sullied with that tag. The originator...I think....knows quite a lot about the subject. Try to think of it as a philosophical debate.  ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 09:41
| Speaking of the Lamb thread, the fact that I did read some stuff means that I stumbled across this issue in the past. Others have felt the same way. I once read (I'm not sure where, but it might have been one of Ivan's texts about Symph Prog) that between classic Symph and Neo there is what was called "the second wave of Symphonic Prog" which paved the way for Neo and which started at about The Lamb / Voyage Of The Acolyte. |
Posted By: Tursake
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 09:53
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I think lots of us read about prog but those topics are just something that don't have a definitive answer and are easily debatable
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Last.fm: TursakeX RYM: Tursake |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 10:35
Yes I suppose there we have an debate on an abstract aspect of an abstract subject, i.e. music.
 But guys, I trying to get a philosophical discussion/debate going on knowing your subject in part, by book research.....hence expanding your knowledge to be able to debate from a more complete and solid ('sound 'might be a better word in the circumstances) basis. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 11:07
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Very good point. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
After that, reading books about Prog Rocks style and genres maybe is good. You know, every writers analys subjects with their opinions and their opinion may based on their privet motives.
We can talk about "Symphonic" and "Neo" 1000 days! Some of difinitions isn't correct exactly and difinitions based on writer's "point of view".
Music is listening procces not reading. I know reading books have many benefits( and I read books ) but this kind of books (about sub genres) isn't good refrences because these difinitions not acceptable for all. Somany sites and books exist about Prog genres with different difinitions and for younger fans is very difficult to choose correct one. And unfortunately young Prog fans(not all of them) dont patience enough.
Some of young prog fans think, with listening Prog and talk about that in forums they seem intellectual. They talk about subjects without undrestand that and they react and insult to any opposite opinions. They attack to bands and artists without shame. Now you say to them " Hey guys please reading books then talk about subjects". I dont think this works. Sorry for long writing.
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:03
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Prog and rock in general, as much as I can put my hands on. But we can't be too elitist or stand-offish to new people, if they don't have much experience with music, what you do is be friendly and help them in their education. We sure don't want "thread police" dictating what people can and can't talk about. As long as people aren't breaking any rules or posting in the wrong area, they will talk about what they wish to talk about. Scroll on by if not interested |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:21
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I think the first book about "prog " was Rocking The Classics : English Proressive Rock and by Edward Macan. Macan is a university prof and this was more of a scholarly work. that went into a lot of music theory. I've also read more recently Emerson's book, Bruford's book and Wakeman's hillarious Grumpy Old Rock Star I also have McLaughlin's biography. I think many of my reviews reflect that I've read a lot about the subject over the years since the mid 16th century when God created me. I read so much I can't confine it to just reading about progrock. I'd rather just listen to it. I think it'ts not something that I'd get to academic over. It's more of a pastime for me . An escape. ------------- |
Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:26
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I think Mr Heath raises a number of good points here. More surely can be done to direct contributors to the copious amounts of information available on the site to avoid excessive reinventing of the wheel. I might add, perhaps digressively, that it's quite normal here to see people contribute to a thread without having read what has already been written in the thread, let alone not reading what has already been written and stored (re: definitions and histories) on the site. But that's just a personal peeve. On a more positive note, it might be said that while argumentative strands take up some space and attention on the threads, much education occurs as well. I constantly see contributors providing histories or introducing the names of lesser known bands and genres. I know that I've definitely learned some things along the way! ------------- The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough. --Robyn Hitchcock |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:30
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Posted By: besotoxico
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:46
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Prog to me is ultimately about freedom of expression. The more you define these freedoms of expression the more you define them out of existence. It is good to have references to help guide younger prog fans such as myself, but like O666 said music is a listening process not reading. I have a degree in Music Composition and Theory but I don't believe music academia is necessary to understand or appreciate prog. I have played with guitarists whom don't know a lick of theory but they can play along to anything and everything. In fact I admit one of them (Brian Hudson) can out play me any day of the week but he doesn't even know his circle of fifths. I have coworkers whom love King Crimson, Genesis, Frank Zappa, Henry Cow, VDGG, and more but have never read anything about prog. Should that make their opinion unworthy? ------------- Lies, he only tells the truth, for he means it, means, not anything he says, eyes unseen, but everything is ........ So sincere, so sincere, so sincere, so sin. |
Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:13
I think I'm hearing two distinct responses coming from the original post: 1) People are starting a forum or poll (or simply posting) without having read what has already been written and posted here on the archive; 2) People should read more about prog in general and be better informed before posting. The second point is, I believe, ideal, but I can see why it would be debatable (and damned hard to enforce!). The first, however, I think gets to something more fundamental that shapes the quality and ethos of what's done here. An eminently reasonable point. ------------- The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough. --Robyn Hitchcock |
Posted By: questionsneverknown
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:15
Hey, I just noticed your avatar--Over the Rhine's a great band! Nice choice. ------------- The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough. --Robyn Hitchcock |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:25
| I have absolutely no interest in reading a book about prog or jazz. For the history of the genres I have the internet, and what makes the opinion of some guy who wrote a book better than somebody's opinion on this forum? Especially since something like "essential jazz albums" is hardly arcane knowledge. |
Posted By: Darklord55
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:42
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. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
What??? Attitudes like this is one of the many reasons why people think those who like Prog are snobs. The rest of what I have to say is
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:47
It is my opinion that there is a lot of information here on a lot of things. And a lot of reviews. No doubt about that.
The hard part is that there is no proper way to index these other than in alphabetical order for everyone to find. The other issue ... and I suppose a lot of folks say the same thing about my reviews, film included (over 200 at the IMDB for foreign and art films -- and 250 more to upload!) ... and I am probably too lazy to add all the music and album reviews.
I'm of the opinion that too many of these reviews need to be redone and people stop to say that blah and blah is neo-prog or blah-blah prog and instead go ahead and review things with one's own "personal" descriptions and views ... NEVER with supposed definitions that do not exist. I will listen to an album if you tell me that you like it and why ... I won't if you say because it is neo-prog!
The hard part, and while I do not feel like a victim, it does happen a lot in this board, is that there are some fans that are here strictly for the trolling and the spam. And while Dean and his staff need all the hits they can to help, I'm not sure they can afford to lose them.
Suggestions are tough ... it's hard to disagree with the long history of this board and Dean's and his friend's work ... but it is not "organized" if I may say so. I would prefer that there would be a large index that would help with definitions and a chart, maybe? ... if I'm new to "prog" and see all those definitions, I think I would go freaky and say ... forget that! For example ... the free legal downloads should not be in the Prog Music Lounge, even if it serves mp3's ... it takes away from the discussion!
The other part ... and I have mentioned and written about it several times ... is that the "history" of the progressive movement is ... not as well defined ... in such a way, that the sub-genres would make sense in the first place. I'm not sure that we need professors ... but I can tell you that I would gladly donate some time and effort ... I find it distressing that we call "Epitaph" prog ... but not a condeming anthem against the VietNam War and the IRA issues at the time ... which is why it was written in the first place ... and read several times in many demonstrations ... but no ... it's "prog"! ... and it takes the sould out of the piece and kinda makes KC come off like a band that wouldn't know the difference between an anti war statement and a song about Jane or another bitch! That's just one example!
As for losing fans ... I wouldn't want to lose them ... but I think that we can better house them, and maybe we need to place all new threads in one generic area and them move them to the right place ... the problem being that many folks don't know where it went to!
We might, also, consider thinking about trimming down the number of forums so that things can better be found. Some forums could be combined ... the "advertising" ones should be combined ... but if CDbaby is the parent here, I don't want to tell them what to do with their children! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:01
Weird seeing this ... specially about "progressive music"!
So much of progressive music is about experimentation and improvisation WITHOUT a structure ... that blues, jazz, rock'n'roll have such a strong tendency to make sure is there. The main issue is, you can NOT create something new unless you show the finger to the old ... just about!
A lot of progressive did do such a thing, but mostly it was a harsh reaction (drugs and all that) to the "establishment", and some of this was done with improvisations and a lot of other elements, that eventually were incorporated into "progressive" music ... namely "long cuts" .. and nowadays ... just another song that is 7 minutes long instead of 3 and still follows the A-B-A format ... how progressive, were it not for the sound effect on the guitar?
Music has been "progressive" for thousands of years ... so in a way, labeling one period "progressive" is almost the same thing as saying that any other period of music is not valid or has anything to offer and that is just plain wrong!
Analysis is over rated ... go ahead and break up your bycicle and then put it together again ... I'm not sure that you can fine tune it exactly as it was before ... it might be better ... if you are an expert on the subject but the parts are the same ... which means that it can only be better if the ability of the legs pedalling are stronger than most ... but that is not about the "music" as much as it is about your "legs". And then you are not analysing the bicycle ... you are analysing the legs? Of course, in a fun way, though, there are nice legs out there! But a new pedaling style is so different as to make it a new bycicle? I am not sure about that!
Sadly, when you state things like that, I am inclined to believe that you have not heard enough music that is free of any form whatsoever, regardless of it being accoustic, electric or what not ... and you appear to be stuck in westernized patterns that have been around for millenia that most of the "progressive" musicians that have ever been around have been trying to kill and change!
Analysis is what you do AFTER the fact ... not BEFORE and not DURING ... because otherwise you prevent the process from creating! You infuse it with things, ideas and thoughts that are not always about that specific moment in time ... ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: CinemaZebra
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:05
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The more popular your site is the more n00bs you get, plain and simple.
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Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:07
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Posted By: CinemaZebra
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:11
Gamespot was my first forum site. I was banned for being too young after a year there. 
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Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:15
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:28
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I too get a little dismayed by people not doing their homework first. Particularly starting threads that have already been done. Psst, there's this thing called the search function, people, please.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:47
Do You think experimentation and improvisation have'nt structure?
I think Progressive music or other genre of music have STRUCTURE. I talk about Progressive music because I am in Progressive site and Progressive forum. AND I did my homework 30 years later!!!!
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 15:09
2- Please note to "speak seriously". Everybody free to speak about everything but when you want to analysis music (or other arts) you must have knowledge about that.
3- I'm not "SNOB" like you and I dont talk about myself. I write my opinion about this topic. If you dont want to read books or try to know about music, why insult me?
4- Music have 2 faces : a)rules and knowledges b) feel and sense. Great musician use their knowledge to impress others. They use perfect technique or perfect arrangment (for example) to make perfect music. What is your criteria for good music?
5- I think you like music for one reason : HEADBANG!!!
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 16:43
Quite a lot of music doesn't have any structure, or at least not structure in the sense that a normal person would define it.
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Posted By: CinemaZebra
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 16:53
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Posted By: caretaker
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 18:05
| Good discussion. Slartibartfast stole my thunder about the search engine. I use it quite a lot for different reasons. I think that if more people would take advantage of it and the guidelines for using the site, it would help a lot . |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 22:40
Seriously, the search function has too many variables included and is far too specific in its ability to search that it is not easy to use for the purpose you describe ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 23:40
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Back to the original topic, which was less about reading this or that book but actually about doing some research prior to posting. As I've repeated to the point of nausea, I'm old and grew up with the music we call prog, which is a decided advantage. I don't mind participating in a thread where a n00b is asking a reasonable question, i.e., where's a good place to start with Frank Zappa or King Crimson or Miles Davis, my assumption always being that they've never heard these bands. For me, the obvious answer is simple: their first album. But in some sense, that may or may not be the best answer for someone just discovering the genres that make up prog or jazz. I try to give the members of the forum the benefit of the doubt. If someone has never heard FZ or KC or Miles, all of whom have formidable catalogs, and if that person may not have unlimited discretionary income (so that buy 'em all is not a particularly helpful answer), well I don't mind pointing the way to one of the more accessible and better (to my ears) albums of the band. Certainly if someone chooses to start from album one, or even randomly buy Zappa's 200 Motels or KC's Earthbound, they may choose not to look nor go further, at least until they've recovered, in which case they'll miss much of the best. I can never get the search function here to work. That being said, you don't need the search function to go read the reviews here; just click on the letter. (It took me a while to figure that out Now that being said, I doubt I would have ever heard an album from The Decemberists were it not for discussion on the forum. Being the type who just refuses to click on "D", twas my good luck, I guess, stumbling into a thread about them, and having some kind souls suggest where to start. So it cuts both ways for us old farts. Long long ago, in a galaxy far far way, The Smithsonian Institute put out a six-LP box set of Classic Jazz. The sucker runs the gauntlet, from Scott Joplin (Side 1, Track 1) to John Coltrane (Side 12, Track 4). In between is a sampling of every major jazz artist of the 20th century. Yeah, you can argue with a few choices, both in terms of who was included or excluded, and yes even the song choices for those who made the cut. But what a remarkable way, for a n00b or in my case, one who came to jazz in the very early 70's, to experience and understand the history of the genre. It's really unfortunate that there can't be a similar effort for prog. I've seen threads that try it (the Prog canon), but don't we disagree! Some authoritive dude at The Smithsonian needs to undertake the project, and put it to CD (if they even do that anymore). We can then argue about who or who didn't make the cut, or that this or that song just ain't representative of this or that band. But...then it's too late; the deal is done and the bits are in the plastic. And...it gives everyone who cares a starting point. Sorry, I'm ranting... ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: August 13 2010 at 23:48
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Forums are forums and the kiddies will play. Blame DT for bringing 'prog' back to the masses. On a personal note, I like the bit about intellectuals and the curiously enquiring....
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Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 04:25
The thing that always surprises ME is that newcomers will start new threads asking things like "Which Gentle Giant album do you recommend" or "What are the best Canterbury albums". Once they've bumped into Progarchives, all it takes is a few clicks in our reviews section to find out ALL they could ever want about such subjects AND MORE!!! No "Search" button needed. Just click on some of links at the top of the Start page, for Prog's sake! But apparently today's youngsters won't even do any research (even if PA can provide them with all the information they need), no, each and every answer to their Dreary Little Questions has to be SPOONFED to them, in the forums... [I guess I've got essentially the same gripe with them as Dick Heath. Oh what do you want - I just turned fifty two days ago!  ]
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 05:00
This. Also what CinemaZebra said. I don't really need to know what one person thinks are the best jazz albums on earth, but I do read a lot about it on the net to find out. I did that in the beginning too, nobody told me about a genre called progressive rock, I found out for myself. Yes, a lot of people are too lazy to do that, well, I say, live with it, it's not a crime. And the thread about Lamb and Neo prog was clearly directed at stylistic similarities and not at Genesis being a neo prog band in the sense the word was used in the 80s. It's quite an interesting topic, actually. Honestly, it's not of particular importance to a young prog fan like me why the term neo prog was coined, and the discussion on aspects of similarity in style between the bands is more interesting because the music's what it's all about, ultimately and whether Marillion or Genesis came first doesn't affect my appreciation of either much.
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 05:22
technique, compose and..... theses are build structure. Music WITHOUT structure is not music. Drummer without timing is not drummer. I hope you undrestand me
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 05:33
| I'm sorry Dick to call you DEAN!!!! |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 08:55
10cc sung about us in : The Dean & I: 'hey kids let me tell you.......' ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 09:55
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I just started a thread with the question "How did Genesis fans react to The Lamb" so I guess I'm being directly refered to here...
I'm not a prog novice, I'm 44 and I have listened to prog since before I knew what it was, my elder family members listened to prog while I was doing my addition and substraction and multiplication homework. My lifetime mates are also prog fans, we grew together listening to prog (and other music as well), we have had years of discussions, we have read magazines... you know what I mean.
I think I have a pretty good idea of how did Genesis fans react to the release of The Lamb. And if I want to learn more about it, sure, I can search the net and read stuff for 2 full days.
That's not the point. Reading is one very important thing, but it is something completely different from an internet forum. Reading is a 1-way exercise and the purpose is purely to inform and educate yourself.
Forums are an interactive amusement. I think many of us here use the forum as a sort of tool for chatting with other people who like similar music as we do, to engage in (hopefully) entertaining discussions, even if in many occasions we will hear again and again what we already know or what has been already said 100 times before.
I'm not expecting a single reply by an authoritative music history scholar telling me the objective truth of how did Genesis fans react to The Lamb. I'm simply expecting to hear other PA members' opinions and have some fun.
I understand what you mean and surely all of us can and should educate ourselves, but I think you miss the point of what a forum is for.
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Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 13:18
This, as well as what Gerinski said above.
------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 13:48
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Right here is my opinion for what it's worth:
How much time do people have to ,say for example, using any topic starter like the Neo/Lamb thread, start doing an exstensive search/research first to see if this topic has been started before? Very few unless you have so much time on your hands that you like to challenge " search" engines
 The forum allows an awful lot of people to type away in the " NOW" so unless you are a serious accountant who enjoys auditing copious amounts of threads, then your main thrust or motivation perhaps is not the topic itself, more in data mining.
Another thing. There is always the noobies and the oldies tag. Just for the record, so what if a topic has been started previously again and again by newer members. I like Mike Oldfield- Incantations. Why? Because it is repetitive. I also like seeing similar posts from newer members repeating certain topics. Why? I like repetition. The site is better off for it, encouraging ongoing debates from all aspects of membership. That is how it evolves. What happens when all the older members move on? 100 years years on we are still discussing Bach, Mozart, Beethoven. We do not have people up in arms saying please refer to the original writings about these discussions, this has been discussed before
 So leave behind the elitist thoughts and encourage fresh discussion, however repetitive you may feel it is. Gerinski for example as outlined above has made some really excellent thread starters recently
As for comments about the site having more elements of negativity lately, I do not agree.It seems like the same old complaints pissing against the wind. Rudeness, insulting and abusive posters aside let's be more tolerant of new questions and discussions regardless of whether some people feel they have doctorates in progressive music. Experience is knowledge so cultivate it, not smother it.
Good thread topic BTW And rave on.....all those looking for prog, it will change your life forever ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 14:05
Actually i don't think you your thread was being referred to at all. Unless nit has been later on and I missed it. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:19
Well, my thread topic was not much different from these so...
No problem, and anyway what I said applies to any such kind of topics, whoever the OP is.
Now and then I also see some thread which personally I find silly, I simply ignore that one and go to some other one which I find more interesting or amusing.
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Posted By: Mellotron Storm
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:28
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I'd like to think one day i'll read more about Prog but for now i'm way too busy with work,family and listening to music. I read very little except the newspaper. One day i'd like to read some of Peart's books and general books on the seventies progressive movement.Oh and Krautrock. I don't know if i'll make the time though when listening to music means so much more to me than reading books.To each his own i suppose. ------------- "The wind is slowly tearing her apart" "Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN |
Posted By: Devonsidhe
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:34
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[QUOTE=Dick Heath]
I feel we getting an increase in the number of threads with titles such as: what was the first prog album,
was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,
is jazz prog?
What is worse the reponses usually don't direct the originator to points of references. So is there a tendency here to argue rather than educate??? (/QUOTE)
First to answer your question: I do try to read not only the content on this site but also books or magazines not referenced here. I try not to stay with just one source.
But I'm not sure if referencing what we write is always the answer. References are needed in a scholarly manner if we are analyzing historical or factual matters. But, much of this forum is heavy on opinion. (which I like) If I see someone using someone else as a source for their opinion, I'm wondering if they have an opinion? ------------- Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see. |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:42
I am sorry if this comes across as a little nasty but it seems that you, Dick Heath, didn't read Anthony's OP in the 'Lamb' thread too properly:
So, he clearly did know that neo-prog as a term didn't exist at the time of that album's release and was simply raising a question about some similarities in the music, which by itself was a rather interesting question. It's unfortunate that you think any use of the word neo-prog out of context even for comparison and not for a factual discussion is so blasphemous. |
Posted By: Devonsidhe
Date Posted: August 14 2010 at 23:59
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My vote goes to keep encouraging all questions. Like many have said, even if the question has been asked before, it doesn't mean it will get the same answer as before. The best solution may be to add another category to the forums page for those who want a scholarly and intellectual discussion. If correctly labelled, those who aren't interested will go elsewhere.
But, if we want to keep encouraging new members who are interested in learning, let us have a forum so they can talk with all of us old dinosaurs. We would learn from them as much as they learn from us. ------------- Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: August 15 2010 at 00:25
I'm talking specifically about free improvisation. There was no set structure or theme or composition in these performances but I am pretty sure they're music.
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Posted By: Darklord55
Date Posted: August 15 2010 at 07:26
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1- I think you must learn work with quote. "Learning" is very useful for you.
2- Please note to "speak seriously". Everybody free to speak about everything but when you want to analysis music (or other arts) you must have knowledge about that.
3- I'm not "SNOB" like you and I dont talk about myself. I write my opinion about this topic. If you dont want to read books or try to know about music, why insult me?
4- Music have 2 faces : a)rules and knowledges b) feel and sense. Great musician use their knowledge to impress others. They use perfect technique or perfect arrangment (for example) to make perfect music. What is your criteria for good music?
5- I think you like music for one reason : HEADBANG!!!
1 - I listen to music for pure enjoyment. I listen to the music I like. I don't have the desire to always analyze a certain piece of music. I listen to Bach, John Coltrane, Opeth and The Flower Kings etc. etc. All because I like their music.
2 - I never said I don't read books or did I say learning was not important.
3- I never called you a snob. I did not directly insult you. I critizied the attitude. I don't know you and therefore had no intentions to insult YOU. It's not my fault you personalilzed it.
4 - My criteria is, well I guess I already answered that. Because I like or enjoy it. I usually don't listen to music I don't like. For example, Rap, Country, the pop music of today, etc. etc.
5 - What's wrong with a little headbanging?!
 6 - I hope we can still be friends.
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 15 2010 at 15:45
First I want to talk with LORD. I never want to upset you. I know You dont know me but You attack to me. I just tell my opinion about THIS TOPIC. I dont know you too and when I dont know you why I want to personalize. If I upset you please forgive me my friend. ( sometimes I headbanging too .  )
Hi Henry. I try to say improvisation have own structure. I mean without structure never made music. Maybe I shouldn't use "structure" word . I cant found another word to explain my opinion. You know , I use "babylon" to write in English and sometimes its very difficult work!!!!
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Posted By: Darklord55
Date Posted: August 16 2010 at 08:39
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Ok, maybe I didn't explain it clear enough. I'm not upset at all. There is nothing to forgive. I hold nothing against you. I did not intend what I said to be an attack on your person. It's like I tell my son when I need to correct him. "I'm not mad at you, but upset at the behaviour." I don't like it when proggers come off like a snob. I include me with that attitude. I have to watch myself so when I do critique a certain style of music that I don't come off snobish and the music I like is better than the music someone else likes. Even though it is. So please forgive me as well.
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 16 2010 at 10:42
Hi Dick, (-a little mlate on the sunject, but....
 )I understand where you're coming from and share some of your frustrations.....
One must be dealing with the side effects of the Web and modern society.
I have quite a few books on prog and music in general now, but when younger (in my teens), I only had one reference book, an Illustrated Encyclopedia of rock, that was mostly minding of English speaking rock (although Ange and Magma were featured, but not Harmonium or Rush). So the only places I took my infos from were the monthlies (Rock'n Folk and Best in French, Creem in English) and to a lesser extent the weeklies (Sounds, once in a while) and the free stuff (the Canadian periodical New Music Express - I know
) and the odd book, notably Gallo's book on Genesis, but I can't say this quenched my thirst much. First, the younger members, impatient (wanting everything now and not waiting for tomorrow) and broke (at least for buying stuff they can have for free). PA is sort of an entry-typoe of site, where newcommers can ask intelligent and dumb questions. PA 's forum reputation is not exactly known for its elitist membership, and that's probably why it's so successfull.......
But deep inside of me, I wish more some people (not necessarily the younger ones, some are actually quite advanced) refrained from being too impulsive and not thinking enough their opening posts..... Because if they thought about it more, they'd probably find their answers by themselves with having to post it.
Nowadays there are flurry of books and sampler boxsets with plenty of info, but you have to BUY them ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: August 16 2010 at 14:38
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I don't frequently read the articles on the site, but I'm informed enough to not ask retarded questions. It is kind of irritating to hear things like "What are some of King Crimson's best albums" anymore though, knowing how clearly laid out it all is on the site. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 16 2010 at 15:01
I couple of my pictures have been used in at least 2 books ... and one website did not even have the gall or the werewithal to ask if they could use my pictures!
Sometimes the polite thing to do is the easiest! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 00:53
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1
------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 06:37
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We can talk about good music or bad music and give reasons for our opinion. Like compare 2 guitarist. One of them have beter technique and we recognize that. BUT when we want compare 2 guitar-hero this is not work. If we vote to one of them this vote come from our TASTE. Writers have their own taste. Many books just explain their writer's taste. Maybe one writer like Genesis more than YES and write a book about that and young fans after read that book thinks " Genesis beter than YES"!!!!
I never trust to this kind of books. I trust to my EARS.
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Posted By: Darklord55
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 08:14
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I trust to my EARS.
I agree 100%!! For the most part, who's the better guitarist, drummer, etc etc varies as much as reviews do of an album. A five star to some may be a one star to others. The best guitarist to one could be not so great to another. If I strictly depended on the opinion of others I would have missed out on some incredible music.
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Posted By: Pangaea
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 11:16
Oh here we go again. The old Prog is only for intelligent people while dummies listen to those 'other' forms of music argument.
I think the tendency always was: you discover a band of whatever genre (but let's say Prog so we can pretend to be talking about a superior art form) and you like it. THEN, if you were really interested, you'd do some research, read a book about the band or the times or some aspect that the band/music triggers in you.
I can't imagine going out and reading all kinds of books or articles on some unknown band that I may or may not like. There are far too many bands and books to do that for. You go read a 500 page book on Lynyrd Skynyrd or somebody only to discover later, after you buy their record that "hey, these guys suck! Sure glad I spent all that time reading about them."
Self enquiry is just that - it flows from the self. Something hits you, then you do the smart-guy stuff like read a book or find everything ever written about them on the internet.
To be honest, lots of people discovered early Prog bands like Yes and Genesis based solely on their strikingly creative album covers. And THAT'S what pulled them in. Hey, there's something creative going on here. Then they found the actual music.
Of course, back in the day you'd never find ANYTHING written about these bands outside of a superficial Circus magazine article once in a great while. And that was only for the biggest Prog bands. And yet people discovered them anyway without all this self-congratulatory intelligent research.
As for all those threads like What Was the First Prog Album , Was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album etc etc etc ad nauseum, I think those are started more out of boredom and an absence
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 13:45
That and the start of FM radio which gave you the music in Stereo and sounded way better.
And one of my first guides???? Easy!!! ... all the Hipgnosis' covers! It covers almost one third of all the startups that eventually defined "prog" ... most of which people here are not willing to listen to.
Kinda sad when no one knows or is capable of even saying hello to Roy Harper! And guess where Mike Oldfield got his start? ... yep! With Kevin Ayers! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Evolver
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 14:17
And at one time FM radio actually played prog bands. ------------- Trust me. I know what I'm doing. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: August 17 2010 at 14:26
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Not so much. I bought a couple issues of Classic Rock: Prog, but then I realized it was too expensive and I could get most of what it had in there from Wikipedia. INTERNET!
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: August 22 2010 at 17:01
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I never read books about music, I used to read some magazines, but at a certain point I realised that all those magazines never went further than the more popular bands, which is the dificulty with every form of communication about everything, we need some common language in which we communicate,
basically every prog discussion can start with discussing Genesis/Yes/King Crimson/Pink Floyd and it can lead anywhere you want it too lead.
no need to do research 'caus you can't find what you want to find, all you will find in books is the trodden path of who's who and which bands sold well. obscure bands are not obscure without reason. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: August 22 2010 at 17:04
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Hi Tux. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: thehallway
Date Posted: August 23 2010 at 12:56
Yes.
To the Thread Starter:
If someone (and it isn't neccessarily just young people) says something annoying, unintellectual, uneducated, stupid, obscene, offensive, blasphemous, unneccesary, unoriginal or simply wrong, all you have to do is not read it.
The above things do waste time, but starting new threads to moan about something you aren't even forced to read or participate in, wastes time doubly so.
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: August 24 2010 at 06:53
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: August 24 2010 at 07:08
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I read daily about prog... ------------- 
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Posted By: nightlamp
Date Posted: August 24 2010 at 21:20
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I won't read a prog book just for the sake of it being prog, but I do make a point to track down print sources (when possible) about bands I like. It just seems like a no-brainer. Forum chatter can be fun and even informative, but nine times out of ten I'd rather read a well-researched article or interview with a musician I admire than page after page of opinion-based user reviews and comments. On the subject of prog reading: I ran into some trouble recently when researching my master's thesis in music history -- I'm writing on the stylistic development of space rock in the early '70s, and when my gradaute advisor read my bibliography he cautioned me about discernment when evaluating scholarly vs. journalistic or "fan" sources. The trouble is, I can count the number of objective, scholarly treatments progressive rock as a whole on one, maybe two hands. Fortunately, my advisor was very understanding of my predicament...
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Posted By: Kashmir75
Date Posted: August 24 2010 at 23:38
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I buy Classic Rock presents Prog magazine. That's the extent of my prog research. I'm not writing a PhD thesis on the subject, its just a hobby of mine. ------------- Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while... |
Posted By: ergaster
Date Posted: August 25 2010 at 07:49
I notice you are a grad student. Have you heard the joke: "You know you are a grad student when the reference list is more interesting than the article."? In that vein, have you searched out some of the sources that Edward Macan used when he was researching Rocking the Classics? Not directly prog-related (they wouldn't be) and they'd be old now, but some of them look interesting enough to track down for background and context. ------------- We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty. Captain Malcolm Reynolds Reality rules, Honor the truth Chemist99a R.I.P. |
Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: August 25 2010 at 08:59
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Is this tread turning into one of those treads, this tread is about. ? ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |