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Topic ClosedFrench approve ban on burqas...
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:08
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

I think it is an animal/human instinct to demand that we should be able to see another's creature/humans face to check out if that creature/human being is displaying aggressive or friendly behavior. In short, every single one of us is always risk analyzing everything that comes across us on a street. Human faces is an important part of a risk analysis. This is our basic human instincts.......... as well as the instincts a dog and a cat lives by too. Burkas on cats or dogs will create total havoc in the animal kingdom. 

Hence I support this ban on all veils, burkas, closed helmets and masks worn in city streets. 

I became aware of this risk analysis when I lived in a terrorist ravaged city for some years.



While we're on that subject, we should just ban all clothes so noone can carry concealed weapons...

(and surely you can risk analyze by saying 'that man's wearing a balaclava, I'll leave him alone?')
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:10
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

You can be modest without wearing a burqa,


You can be sexy without wearing thongs... so?
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Points: 65603 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:12
ooh, this thread's heating up

I'm not in favor of it.  Having grown up in a cosmopolitan, multi-ethnic city, the notion that someone wearing a burqa should be feared or suspected is a bit unsophisticated.  But if that's what the majority of the French want, so be it. 


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Points: 4373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:15
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

You can be modest without wearing a burqa,


You can be sexy without wearing thongs... so?


There are clear alternatives to the all-encompassing piece of headgear.
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:21
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

You can be modest without wearing a burqa,


You can be sexy without wearing thongs... so?


There are clear alternatives to the all-encompassing piece of headgear.


Yeees but they shouldn't be banned to protect people's freedom to wear what they like either.

(i.e. I think the freedom of religion line is superfluous given a plain freedom of wearing clothes line is pretty reasonable)


Edited by TGM: Orb - July 13 2010 at 19:22
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Points: 1184 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:22
Man, and I thought Americans were cynical.
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Points: 4373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:25
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

You can be modest without wearing a burqa,


You can be sexy without wearing thongs... so?


There are clear alternatives to the all-encompassing piece of headgear.


Yeees but they shouldn't be banned to protect people's freedom to wear what they like either.

(i.e. I think the freedom of religion line is superfluous given a plain freedom of wearing clothes line is pretty reasonable)


There's a difference between what that they like and what they're obligated to wear. If its really a faith issue, then there's other things to wear in order to oblige religious dictates (things that don't shroud the entire head and make identification impossible).
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:38
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

You can be modest without wearing a burqa,


You can be sexy without wearing thongs... so?


There are clear alternatives to the all-encompassing piece of headgear.


Yeees but they shouldn't be banned to protect people's freedom to wear what they like either.

(i.e. I think the freedom of religion line is superfluous given a plain freedom of wearing clothes line is pretty reasonable)


There's a difference between what that they like and what they're obligated to wear. If its really a faith issue, then there's other things to wear in order to oblige religious dictates (things that don't shroud the entire head and make identification impossible).

Talk about missing the issue.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:46
I think the concept of lowering women's self-worth and importance is detestable. 

Having said that, I'm going to have to call ''bullsh*t'' on this ban. I agree with it emotionally, but can't approve of such a thing, mainly on principle. Freedom means freedom, and making something like a religion-induced garb literally illegal goes against a lot of what I feel to be correct. 

I'm no fan of this stuff, but forcing people into leaving it behind by placing harsh laws isn't the way to go about this. Folks need to leave this type of thing by their own accord, not because the lawmakers tell them to. 
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Points: 7826 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:48
Even though I'm not religious (anymore, at least), people have the right as human beings to express their religious views, whether it be by going to a church or a mosque, or in this case, wearing burqas. It's a terrible idea, and just restricts peoples freedom of religion and expression as individuals.

If the government can tell you what not to wear on your head, is it only a matter of time before they can tell you what shirt to wear? Or what shoes to buy?

I will openly admit that quite a few Muslim organizations are a bit "shady", but I assure you it's not because of what women are wearing on their heads. Wink

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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:50
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

I think the concept of lowering women's self-worth and importance is detestable. 

Having said that, I'm going to have to call ''bullsh*t'' on this ban. I agree with it emotionally, but can't approve of such a thing, mainly on principle. Freedom means freedom, and making something like a religion-induced garb literally illegal goes against a lot of what I feel to be correct. 

I'm no fan of this stuff, but forcing people into leaving it behind by placing harsh laws isn't the way to go about this. Folks need to leave this type of thing by their own accord, not because the lawmakers tell them to. 

I agree with this, basically.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:50
What SHOULD be somehow prohibited by law is the religion's persecution of those who may choose to not wear the burqa. Judgment and shunning to the point of shame or exile still happens sometimes among radicals, even in western/westernized cultures. THAT is something reprehensible and just plain wrong, from any angle. The burqa itself isn't the issue, and if a woman wants to wear one, that should be allowed. 
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:54
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

What SHOULD be somehow prohibited by law is the religion's persecution of those who may choose to not wear the burqa. Judgment and shunning to the point of shame or exile still happens sometimes among radicals, even in western/westernized cultures. THAT is something reprehensible and just plain wrong, from any angle.


And just how should such "judgment and shunning to the point of shame" be regulated, might I ask?
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 19:57
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Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

What SHOULD be somehow prohibited by law is the religion's persecution of those who may choose to not wear the burqa. Judgment and shunning to the point of shame or exile still happens sometimes among radicals, even in western/westernized cultures. THAT is something reprehensible and just plain wrong, from any angle.


And just how should such "judgment and shunning to the point of shame" be regulated, might I ask?



Did I say it could, or did I say it should? Wink





Edited by JLocke - July 13 2010 at 20:02
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:01
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

What SHOULD be somehow prohibited by law is the religion's persecution of those who may choose to not wear the burqa. Judgment and shunning to the point of shame or exile still happens sometimes among radicals, even in western/westernized cultures. THAT is something reprehensible and just plain wrong, from any angle.


And just how should such "judgment and shunning to the point of shame" be regulated, might I ask?



Did I say it could, or did I say it should? Wink


That's fair.

You should know though that in modern (not just ancient) middle Eastern and Mediterranean cultures, shame is a big motivator for maintaining a certain behavior.  I've read that natives will even lie to tourists asking for directions rather than admit not knowing.

Now I said you should know this...I didn't say you could.  Tongue
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:03
^ Of course shame can be a great motivator. So can violence. Tongue

Something that gets the job done isn't always morally correct. But I'm sure you're already aware of this, and all I'm doing is arguing for the sake of keeping a debate going. Embarrassed


Edited by JLocke - July 13 2010 at 20:04
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:09
let's put a burqa over this discussion
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:10
It always struck me as one of those issues we seem to care about more than them. I have read/heard many times a lot of women don't see it as a big issue... and then there's the whole rights thing.
I don't like the idea of the ban. People can't be forced to wear it, and so it should be the same other way around.

Thats my opinion, (coming from the social libertarian and economic lefto pink commie LOL)
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:13
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

let's put a burqa over this discussion


You would still be able to smell it.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 13 2010 at 20:15
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

let's put a burqa over this discussion


You would still be able to smell it.

For some people, the scent is all they need.

. . . Confused Even I don't know what I mean.
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