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Gerinski 
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 Topic: What's wrong with ELP?
Posted: March 13 2010 at 05:42 |
I find it quite surprising that ELP does not have any 5 star album in PA, when in my opinion their first 4 studio records are written in stone in the history of symphonic prog, not only for their historical significance as one of the main bands who created the genre (if we include The Nice, I would say THE band which created it, and in any case considered by so many as one of prog's 'G3' together with Genesis and Yes, both of them with a few well-deserved 5-star albums in PA) but also for their intrinsic timeless musical value. So I thought that this was a shared view by the vast majority of the worldwide prog community but apparently it's not so.
Admittedly ELP's music is not the easiest to get into, but this seems not to be a problem given that King Crimson has 3 5-star albums (In the Court of, Lark's Tongues and Red, all deserved no question!).
It's also true that even the best ELP records had some filler or weaker parts in them, reflection partly of the cohesion issues which haunted the band since its very creation, partly of the eclectic nature of Keith. And the lyrics were surely weak to say the least.
But in any case, to me the amazing level of the good music more than compensates to still give 5 undoubted stars to these albums as a whole.
I would like to hear what are the resons why you think ELP's 4 first albums fall short of the 5-star rating in PA.
Edited by Gerinski - March 13 2010 at 11:45
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Progfan1958
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:00 |
Good morning Gerinski ! Well, I've been an ELP fan since 1974, and believe that they do have probably two 5 star Albums, Brain Salad Surgery, and their self titled debut . Both were groundbreaking and extremely well played. Trilogy comes in a close second with 4 stars. I think a lot of people berate them simply because their over-all portfolio is pretty spotty and has a couple of glaring blunders later on with Love Beach and In The Hot Seat. I agree though that Greg Lake can't write a decent lyric to save his life, but some of their work did benefit with the help of Pete Sinfield.
Keith Emerson is simply the best rock keyboard player out there. Sure there are younger musicians who have more speed and accuracy, but none have ever matched his spirit and the vigour. Perhaps Keith's biggest error over the years is that he hasn't collaborated enough with other musicians. He could have worked in the Jazz and Classical circles much more extensively, specially through they 80's when ELP were out of the picture. Maybe his ego got in the way and made him a difficult partner... who knows.
Steve
My ratings for the first four albums :
ELP *****
Tarkus ***
Trilogy ****
Brand Salad Surgery *****
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Progfan1958
"Peace to you all"
"La paix est avec vous"
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"Al salaam a'alaykum"
"Vrede zij met u allen"
"Shalom aleichem"
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Progologue
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:10 |
The debut is very good, Tarkus is similarly good, Trilogy fairly good. But I think they became pretty cheesy after that. They were pretty cool from 1971-1973 but it's a pretty short period though. I think Egg were just as good from 1970-1972 but I find their music a toucher cooler. Would have been nice if Civil Surface was released in 1972 while the band were together and more passionate. I think Side 2 would have had more good music too. Love the single 'You are all princess', makes a cool bonus track on the debut 
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Gerinski
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:24 |
Fully agree, they became erratic after 'Welcome Back my friends', that's why I restricted my point to their first 4 studio records.
I don't think people would rate a certain album low simply because the same band made a weak album a few years later.
By the way 'Pictures' and 'Welcome Back' both deserve 5 stars in my opinion too and they only reach 4 in PA, but I thought restricting the discussion to the 4 studio albums would keep things easier.
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Gerinski
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:27 |
As for Egg, I have only listened to The Polite Force and altough it's a really good album, in my opinion falls short when compared to ELP's '70 - '75 period.
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:38 |
Even though I'm a massive ELP fanboy it's only Brain Salad Surgery that got 5 stars from me. Trilogy is very close to that status but for me The Endless Enigma is less than the sum of its three parts. Similarly, Tarkus is sullied by Are You Ready Eddy ? (If only the answer had been... No ?) Pictures at an Exhibition is also damn close to 5 sparklies but Keith's whinge that the classics are bowdlerised by Rock is shot to flames by the inclusion of Nutrocker. The debut album is very patchy i.e. Take a Pebble outstays its welcome and the guitar solo is padding, the Three Fates appears to be just Emerson (until the end when percussion appears) and Lucky man is Greg fluff. (notwithstanding the famous Moog solo which Emerson is on record as stating he thinks is sh*t) I agree that it's practically impossible to imagine Prog's lineage without ELP (who were the genre's biggest draw for many years and a template for much of RPI) They were a band that had a healthy respect for the past wedded to an insatiable desire to take rock into areas it had never hitherto dared to set a Beatle boot. Their avowed inspiration was not american i.e. the blues/rock'n'roll, but the western European classical tradition. Blimey guvnor ! is there a parochial aesthetic agenda afoot ? Conclusion: ELP are deemed to embody all the negative aspects of prog (pompous, long winded, pretentious, decadent, self-indulgent, ostentatious show-offs etc) and given that the biggest targets are the easiest ones, it takes the heat off most of their contemporaries whose crimes in this area dwarf that of ELP) It must be only a matter of time before some half-wit intellectual starts a thread poll (with venn diagrams and pie charts of course) that posits 'Were ELP Really Progressive Rock ?The three headed dog that everyone loves to kick ?. Apologies (I'm really grumpy tonight for reasons as yet unknown) 
Edited by ExittheLemming - March 13 2010 at 06:41
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micky
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:52 |
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no no no.... it is not 'what is wrong with ELP'... it should be... 'what is wrong with those who can not get into ELP'
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:56 |
As usual, kudos to Iain for his post   . I'd like to be even more potentially inflammatory, and say that I've never understood why people put down ELP for being pretentious, bombastic, self-indulgent, yadda yadda, and then wax lyrical about Dream Theater. In my humble opinion, there is more self-indulgence and such in most DT songs that in the whole ELP output. Something like Scenes from a Memory makes "Karn Evil 9" sound like a simple pop song  ... However, nowadays it's fashionable to say ELP were bad, that other bands were much more influential (which ones), that they destroyed prog, and I don't know what else. I say, enough already! What about trying to be objective for once, and listen to the damned music with an open mind?
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Epignosis
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:58 |
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Brain Salad Surgery is yay
Trilogy is okay
Tarkus is first
The debut is worst
Pictures at an Exhibition is grand
Almost everything else is bland
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 07:41 |
 ExittheLemming wrote:
Trilogy is very close to that status but for me The Endless Enigma is less than the sum of its three parts.
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To me Trilogy is much more than The Endless Enigma, with Trilogy being another masterpiece (all the piano from the start and until the entry of the drums/bass/synth is heaven to my ears), the other tracks very good and only Abaddon's Bolero not up to the game.
ExittheLemming wrote:
Similarly, Tarkus is sullied by Are You Ready Eddy ? (...) The debut album is very patchy.
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Again, the brilliance of all the rest more than compensates. Taking the 5th star away because of 'Are you Ready' or of 'Lucky Man' is cruel.
It's indeed funny that they themselves did not realise at the time that these diversions (we call them 'fillers' but probably they did not regard them as such) were going to screw up how history would rate their otherwise masterpieces. Too bad.
Edited by Gerinski - March 13 2010 at 07:47
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 08:06 |
Gerinski wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
Trilogy is very close to that status but for me The Endless Enigma is less than the sum of its three parts.
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To me Trilogy is much more than The Endless Enigma, with Trilogy being another masterpiece (all the piano from the start and until the entry of the drums/bass/synth is heaven to my ears), the other tracks very good and only Abaddon's Bolero not up to the game.
ExittheLemming wrote:
Similarly, Tarkus is sullied by Are You Ready Eddy ? (...) The debut album is very patchy.
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Again, the brilliance of all the rest more than compensates. Taking the 5th star away because of 'Are you Ready' or of 'Lucky Man' is cruel.
It's indeed funny that they themselves did not realise at the time that these diversions (we call them 'fillers' but probably they did not regard them as such) were going to screw up how history would rate their otherwise masterpieces. Too bad. |
Ok I guess I do mark really low but the Sistine Chapel roof does not have a single matchstick man depicted thereon (and that is a masterpiece)
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jammun
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 08:51 |
As much as I liked them at the time (they were my favorite band...I never missed an opportunity to see them live), their albums never reach 5 star status for me. Really, a sorry state of affairs. It's too bad we only have the albums these days. Early on...pre-spinning piano shenanigans...they were absolutely a revelation when seen live.
When I was a kid, we used to enjoy lighting thin strips of magnesium. Once we got it hot enough to reach combustion point, there was just incredible glow, for the briefest of moments. And then nothing.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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b4usleep
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Joined: December 21 2009
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 08:59 |
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Debut XXXXX
Tarkus XXXXX
Trilogy XXXXX
Pictures at an Exhibition XXXXX
Brain Salad Surgery XXXXX
Works Vol.1 XXX
Works Vol.2 XXXX
Love Beach X
Black Moon XXX
In the Hot Seat (No Idea)
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Really don't mind if you sit this one out.
My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout.
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TODDLER
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 10:16 |
Raff wrote:
As usual, kudos to Iain for his post. I'd like to be even more potentially inflammatory, and say that I've never understood why people put down ELP for being pretentious, bombastic, self-indulgent, yadda yadda, and then wax lyrical about Dream Theater. In my humble opinion, there is more self-indulgence and such in most DT songs that in the whole ELP output. Something like Scenes from a Memory makes "Karn Evil 9" sound like a simple pop song...
However, nowadays it's fashionable to say ELP were bad, that other bands were much more influential (which ones), that they destroyed prog, and I don't know what else. I say, enough already! What about trying to be objective for once, and listen to the damned music with an open mind?
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The pretentious, bombastic, self indulgent nonsense statements derive from various rock critics throughout the decades and many fans of rock music went along with the content of reviews in conclusion that ELP were a cornball circus act (so to speak). To be blunt they were in fact picked on and not praised like Yes were in the publications industry. The punk scene made matters worse because with the rebellion against hippies, classic rock and prog, ELP became one of the all time favorites to slaughter. Many of the later generations such as alternative music fans from the 90's, new wave people from the 80's, and various artists today were and are influenced by the punk attitude and so the wall has been rather thick for decades. Disc Jockeys in America with daytime and late night programs dedicated to the band Yes only, did not help matters much for ELP. Many American prog fans that I knew were obsessed with Yes and often spoke of the band like they were seeing God. ELP were the opposite and invaded Yes fan's space and gained a reputation as being a less....melodic type of band. Prog fans would often say .......ELP are too mechanical..........They were bashed by several generations of people and now it's so graded into the minds of music fans, that it is unusual to meet someone who is honest about the worthy contibutions of ELP and their importance to the prog world.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
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Points: 5154
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 11:08 |
b4usleep wrote:
Debut XXXXX
Tarkus XXXXX
Trilogy XXXXX
Pictures at an Exhibition XXXXX
Brain Salad Surgery XXXXX
Works Vol.1 XXX
Works Vol.2 XXXX
Love Beach X
Black Moon XXX
In the Hot Seat (No Idea)
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Glad to hear you're so close to my taste 
My only discrepancy is for Works, which are really tough ones to rate as a whole since they are so uneven, but when pressed I would rate Works 1 a bit higher than 2, if only for the Piano Concerto which I love.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 11:51 |
Progologue wrote:
The debut is very good, Tarkus is similarly good, Trilogy fairly good. But I think they became pretty cheesy after that. |
All opinions are welcome and respected, but let me tell you: you're the first person I've known about to call Brain Salad Surgery 'Cheesy' !!!
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Padraic
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 11:58 |
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Nothing.
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moshkito
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 12:09 |
Hi,
I still think that the first album is one of the classic rock albums of all time. But it is also an assault on what a keyboard COULD do, that had never done before. The Hammond Organ had been used and some Mellotrons, but in general, it was almost like they were always the background strings, and not anything else.
Here comes Keith and all of a sudden it is an all out keyboard assault with moogs and piano and everything else under the sun, and it was neat and far out. But as much as some people loved it, at the time, there were a lot of people that were turned off by it -- and you can see that here easily enough.
The critical reviews were always tough since no one could make up their opinion of these. Tarkus was also a very good album although I thought it was more "fragmented" than the first one, and I say that because the first one was not afraid of the musical attacks while the 2nd one started showing a little looser end and fun side, which I think was a relief from the difficulty of some of the stuff they were playing and the massive strain emotionally that those things can take on anyone.
I dropped out after Brain Salad Surgery, and I was not a fan of their "fun stuff" which I thought took away from their musical abilities and talent. And the use of the synths and piano, is still one of the most adventurous uses of the instruments out there. Not totally progressive in the sense that progressive has become, but certainly deserving of the credit and reference that this was much better defined and advanced music than most out there.
ELP had no competition. Yes, LD, Who anyone ... they might not get, or have gotten, the accolades, but they did not need them. However, their shows were not that great and I always thought the pyrotechnics made what they did harder than otherwise.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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The Truth
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 12:11 |
Padraic wrote:
Nothing. |
Well said
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CinemaZebra
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Posted: March 13 2010 at 18:14 |
Progfan1958 wrote:
My ratings for the first four albums :
ELP *****
Tarkus ***
Trilogy ****
Brand Salad Surgery ***** |
Spot on, I couldn't agree more.
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What's wrong with ELP?
