What's wrong with ELP?
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Topic: What's wrong with ELP?
Posted By: Gerinski
Subject: What's wrong with ELP?
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 05:42
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I find it quite surprising that ELP does not have any 5 star album in PA, when in my opinion their first 4 studio records are written in stone in the history of symphonic prog, not only for their historical significance as one of the main bands who created the genre (if we include The Nice, I would say THE band which created it, and in any case considered by so many as one of prog's 'G3' together with Genesis and Yes, both of them with a few well-deserved 5-star albums in PA) but also for their intrinsic timeless musical value. So I thought that this was a shared view by the vast majority of the worldwide prog community but apparently it's not so.
Admittedly ELP's music is not the easiest to get into, but this seems not to be a problem given that King Crimson has 3 5-star albums (In the Court of, Lark's Tongues and Red, all deserved no question!).
It's also true that even the best ELP records had some filler or weaker parts in them, reflection partly of the cohesion issues which haunted the band since its very creation, partly of the eclectic nature of Keith. And the lyrics were surely weak to say the least.
But in any case, to me the amazing level of the good music more than compensates to still give 5 undoubted stars to these albums as a whole.
I would like to hear what are the resons why you think ELP's 4 first albums fall short of the 5-star rating in PA.
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Replies:
Posted By: Progfan1958
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:00
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Good morning Gerinski ! Well, I've been an ELP fan since 1974, and believe that they do have probably two 5 star Albums, Brain Salad Surgery, and their self titled debut . Both were groundbreaking and extremely well played. Trilogy comes in a close second with 4 stars. I think a lot of people berate them simply because their over-all portfolio is pretty spotty and has a couple of glaring blunders later on with Love Beach and In The Hot Seat. I agree though that Greg Lake can't write a decent lyric to save his life, but some of their work did benefit with the help of Pete Sinfield.
Keith Emerson is simply the best rock keyboard player out there. Sure there are younger musicians who have more speed and accuracy, but none have ever matched his spirit and the vigour. Perhaps Keith's biggest error over the years is that he hasn't collaborated enough with other musicians. He could have worked in the Jazz and Classical circles much more extensively, specially through they 80's when ELP were out of the picture. Maybe his ego got in the way and made him a difficult partner... who knows.
Steve
My ratings for the first four albums :
ELP *****
Tarkus ***
Trilogy ****
Brand Salad Surgery ***** ------------- Progfan1958 "Peace to you all" "La paix est avec vous" "Pax vobiscum" "Al salaam a'alaykum" "Vrede zij met u allen" "Shalom aleichem" |
Posted By: Progologue
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:10
The debut is very good, Tarkus is similarly good, Trilogy fairly good. But I think they became pretty cheesy after that. They were pretty cool from 1971-1973 but it's a pretty short period though. I think Egg were just as good from 1970-1972 but I find their music a toucher cooler. Would have been nice if Civil Surface was released in 1972 while the band were together and more passionate. I think Side 2 would have had more good music too. Love the single 'You are all princess', makes a cool bonus track on the debut 
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:24
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Fully agree, they became erratic after 'Welcome Back my friends', that's why I restricted my point to their first 4 studio records.
I don't think people would rate a certain album low simply because the same band made a weak album a few years later.
By the way 'Pictures' and 'Welcome Back' both deserve 5 stars in my opinion too and they only reach 4 in PA, but I thought restricting the discussion to the 4 studio albums would keep things easier.
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:27
| As for Egg, I have only listened to The Polite Force and altough it's a really good album, in my opinion falls short when compared to ELP's '70 - '75 period. |
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:38
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Even though I'm a massive ELP fanboy it's only Brain Salad Surgery that got 5 stars from me. Trilogy is very close to that status but for me The Endless Enigma is less than the sum of its three parts. Similarly, Tarkus is sullied by Are You Ready Eddy ? (If only the answer had been... No ?) Pictures at an Exhibition is also damn close to 5 sparklies but Keith's whinge that the classics are bowdlerised by Rock is shot to flames by the inclusion of Nutrocker. The debut album is very patchy i.e. Take a Pebble outstays its welcome and the guitar solo is padding, the Three Fates appears to be just Emerson (until the end when percussion appears) and Lucky man is Greg fluff. (notwithstanding the famous Moog solo which Emerson is on record as stating he thinks is sh*t) I agree that it's practically impossible to imagine Prog's lineage without ELP (who were the genre's biggest draw for many years and a template for much of RPI) They were a band that had a healthy respect for the past wedded to an insatiable desire to take rock into areas it had never hitherto dared to set a Beatle boot. Their avowed inspiration was not american i.e. the blues/rock'n'roll, but the western European classical tradition. Blimey guvnor ! is there a parochial aesthetic agenda afoot ? Conclusion: ELP are deemed to embody all the negative aspects of prog (pompous, long winded, pretentious, decadent, self-indulgent, ostentatious show-offs etc) and given that the biggest targets are the easiest ones, it takes the heat off most of their contemporaries whose crimes in this area dwarf that of ELP) It must be only a matter of time before some half-wit intellectual starts a thread poll (with venn diagrams and pie charts of course) that posits 'Were ELP Really Progressive Rock ? The three headed dog that everyone loves to kick ?. Apologies (I'm really grumpy tonight for reasons as yet unknown)  ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:52
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no no no.... it is not 'what is wrong with ELP'... it should be... 'what is wrong with those who can not get into ELP'
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:56
As usual, kudos to Iain for his post  . I'd like to be even more potentially inflammatory, and say that I've never understood why people put down ELP for being pretentious, bombastic, self-indulgent, yadda yadda, and then wax lyrical about Dream Theater. In my humble opinion, there is more self-indulgence and such in most DT songs that in the whole ELP output. Something like Scenes from a Memory makes "Karn Evil 9" sound like a simple pop song ...However, nowadays it's fashionable to say ELP were bad, that other bands were much more influential (which ones), that they destroyed prog, and I don't know what else. I say, enough already! What about trying to be objective for once, and listen to the damned music with an open mind? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 06:58
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Brain Salad Surgery is yay Trilogy is okay Tarkus is first The debut is worst Pictures at an Exhibition is grand Almost everything else is bland ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 07:41
To me Trilogy is much more than The Endless Enigma, with Trilogy being another masterpiece (all the piano from the start and until the entry of the drums/bass/synth is heaven to my ears), the other tracks very good and only Abaddon's Bolero not up to the game.
Again, the brilliance of all the rest more than compensates. Taking the 5th star away because of 'Are you Ready' or of 'Lucky Man' is cruel.
It's indeed funny that they themselves did not realise at the time that these diversions (we call them 'fillers' but probably they did not regard them as such) were going to screw up how history would rate their otherwise masterpieces. Too bad.
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ExittheLemming wrote:Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 08:06
Ok I guess I do mark really low but the Sistine Chapel roof does not have a single matchstick man depicted thereon (and that is a masterpiece) -------------
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 08:51
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As much as I liked them at the time (they were my favorite band...I never missed an opportunity to see them live), their albums never reach 5 star status for me. Really, a sorry state of affairs. It's too bad we only have the albums these days. Early on...pre-spinning piano shenanigans...they were absolutely a revelation when seen live.
When I was a kid, we used to enjoy lighting thin strips of magnesium. Once we got it hot enough to reach combustion point, there was just incredible glow, for the briefest of moments. And then nothing. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: b4usleep
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 08:59
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Debut XXXXX Tarkus XXXXX Trilogy XXXXX Pictures at an Exhibition XXXXX Brain Salad Surgery XXXXX Works Vol.1 XXX Works Vol.2 XXXX Love Beach X Black Moon XXX In the Hot Seat (No Idea) ------------- Really don't mind if you sit this one out. My words but a whisper, your deafness a shout. |
Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 10:16
The pretentious, bombastic, self indulgent nonsense statements derive from various rock critics throughout the decades and many fans of rock music went along with the content of reviews in conclusion that ELP were a cornball circus act (so to speak). To be blunt they were in fact picked on and not praised like Yes were in the publications industry. The punk scene made matters worse because with the rebellion against hippies, classic rock and prog, ELP became one of the all time favorites to slaughter. Many of the later generations such as alternative music fans from the 90's, new wave people from the 80's, and various artists today were and are influenced by the punk attitude and so the wall has been rather thick for decades. Disc Jockeys in America with daytime and late night programs dedicated to the band Yes only, did not help matters much for ELP. Many American prog fans that I knew were obsessed with Yes and often spoke of the band like they were seeing God. ELP were the opposite and invaded Yes fan's space and gained a reputation as being a less....melodic type of band. Prog fans would often say .......ELP are too mechanical..........They were bashed by several generations of people and now it's so graded into the minds of music fans, that it is unusual to meet someone who is honest about the worthy contibutions of ELP and their importance to the prog world.
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 11:08
My only discrepancy is for Works, which are really tough ones to rate as a whole since they are so uneven, but when pressed I would rate Works 1 a bit higher than 2, if only for the Piano Concerto which I love.
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 11:51
All opinions are welcome and respected, but let me tell you: you're the first person I've known about to call Brain Salad Surgery 'Cheesy' !!!
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 11:58
| Nothing. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 12:09
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Hi,
I still think that the first album is one of the classic rock albums of all time. But it is also an assault on what a keyboard COULD do, that had never done before. The Hammond Organ had been used and some Mellotrons, but in general, it was almost like they were always the background strings, and not anything else.
Here comes Keith and all of a sudden it is an all out keyboard assault with moogs and piano and everything else under the sun, and it was neat and far out. But as much as some people loved it, at the time, there were a lot of people that were turned off by it -- and you can see that here easily enough.
The critical reviews were always tough since no one could make up their opinion of these. Tarkus was also a very good album although I thought it was more "fragmented" than the first one, and I say that because the first one was not afraid of the musical attacks while the 2nd one started showing a little looser end and fun side, which I think was a relief from the difficulty of some of the stuff they were playing and the massive strain emotionally that those things can take on anyone.
I dropped out after Brain Salad Surgery, and I was not a fan of their "fun stuff" which I thought took away from their musical abilities and talent. And the use of the synths and piano, is still one of the most adventurous uses of the instruments out there. Not totally progressive in the sense that progressive has become, but certainly deserving of the credit and reference that this was much better defined and advanced music than most out there.
ELP had no competition. Yes, LD, Who anyone ... they might not get, or have gotten, the accolades, but they did not need them. However, their shows were not that great and I always thought the pyrotechnics made what they did harder than otherwise. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 12:11
Well said ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: CinemaZebra
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 18:14
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Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 19:10
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Greg Lake. ------------- 
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 19:18
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All their versions of classical works. Actually, most of their music but the fantastic "Tarkus" ------------- 
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 19:33
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Not enough guitar. It's prog ROCK. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Kazza3
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 20:26
| I've only got BSS and Tarkus, and I only really love Karn Evil 9. The rest of BSS is trivial, but generally not bad (except Benny the Bouncer). Tarkus (the song) is quite good, but the rest of the album is just little bits of meaningless rubbish, really. Why did they feel the need to do this? It's discouraged me from buying any more ELP. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 20:33
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A band that released two masterpieces (BSS & Triklogy) plus several very good albums, has no problems in my book. I don't like Love Beach or In the Hot Seat, but I don't listen them.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 20:50
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Nothing is wrong with them. I just personally find their music to generally be boring. I moderately enjoy Tarkus, Trilogy, and BSS, but I don't even remotely consider myself a fan. I often find their music to be directionless, and lacking in interesting sections. People criticize Dream Theater for just being pretentious and self-indulgent soloing, but at least DT can create interesting solos. Most times when I listen to songs like Take A Pebble I get bored to tears. -Jeff ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 21:18
"Man of stone born alone ties a rope around a tree and hangs the universe" "Ever day a little sadder a little madder somebody get me a letter" "LOAD YOUR YOUR PROGRAM I AM YOURSELF" If you like the music, fine (I don't anymore), but those lyrics are just dreadful. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: ProgressiveAttic
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 21:29
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ELP is my favorite band (since I was 3 years old!!!!).... I don't know if the first album deserves 5 stars but the next 4 are definite 5 star material (Takus, Pictures, Trilogy ,BSS)....
People complain about them being pompous, pretentious, over the top, etc. but IT IS PROG! and those are some of the things that make ELP and prog so great and entertaining ------------- Michael's Sonic Kaleidoscope Mondays 5:00pm EST(re-runs Thursdays 3:00pm) @ Delicious Agony Progressive Rock Radio(http://www.deliciousagony.com) 
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Posted By: Dellinger
Date Posted: March 13 2010 at 22:14
| I can say that I like ELP a lot, many great songs. For me the problem is that there's no really solid album for my taste. I have a similar "problem" with Dream Theater, I love their music, but based on songs I like, there's no album I really love on the whole from them either. In the case of ELP, they have many annoying songs for me. I think the closest to a full album that I like (from the ones I know) would be Pictures at an Exhibition. Oh yes, and Black Moon has just about no song that annoys me... but also just about no really impressive song (it does have some good ones anyway, but none on par with their peak). |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 14 2010 at 07:18
Someone get me a ladder (not a'' letter''). This was partly an injoke as they did a tour entitled something like 'Take A Ladder' prior to recording BSS.
You quote other lyrics from KE9 that were co written with Pete Sinfield. Lake admittedly was very poor at writing sci -fi lyrics as it was an area in which he had little interest.
I am slightly annoyed that people are suggesting that Greg Lake couldn't write decent lyrics. The whole Trilogy album stands up very well lyrically. He was good at painting interesting images and could structure the lyrics well. Of course he was no Roger Waters or Tony Banks but he was far away from being a bad lyricist.Check out From The Beginning at least. Beautifull song. Also Lucky Man which he wrote as a teenager.Good stuff imo.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: March 14 2010 at 07:42
Well, I would take my favourite KC/Gentle Giant/Genesis/Yes/JT albums over my favourite ELP album Tarkus, but I don't really understand the usual complaints against them, and especially the one about lack of rock. Even though Gentle Giant have a lot of guitar in their music, it's still far away from rock. So is Red Queen To Gryphon Three, lot of VDGG as well. I agree with those who said that the complaints of pompousness levelled against them are precisely what make prog enjoyable and ELP is a very, very enjoyable prog rock band. 
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Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: March 14 2010 at 08:02
There are bits of ELP that I love to distraction, but there's also a lot that I find pretty much unlistenable. It's interesting to compare them with Egg, another keyboard led trio with strong classical influences but with a much more understated approach (and much lower sales). ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: March 14 2010 at 13:04
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I place Pictures at An Exhibition, Self Titled, and Tarkus (Song not album) pretty high up, the rest I don't really care for except a song or two off of Trilogy. And if we're going to bring up Egg....Egg at their worst is better than ELP at their best. Except Egg was far too consistent to have a worst.
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 14 2010 at 16:30
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 14 2010 at 23:12
Psh, typo! The question is not whether or not Greg Lake could write good lyrics, it's whether or not the BSS lyrics are cheesy. And they are. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: March 14 2010 at 23:19
I'm just not into the music they made, I "get" it, I just don't find it enjoyable, there is nothing wrong with ELP(except some lyrics  ) or me. |
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: March 14 2010 at 23:34
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I'm with Matt that there's nothing wrong with them or with the people who don't like their music. I only really enjoy their debut lately, but I don't have a problem with other people liking/loving/hating/ignoring them.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: m2thek
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 00:03
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I have never wanted to lisen to any of their classic 4 all the way through; they're very inconsistent. Tarkus is my favorite epic though.
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Posted By: Progologue
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 03:47
Bitches crystal and The only way are the best songs on the album
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 05:04
Lucky Man? Why was he lucky? - he got shot! |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 07:48
I hope this was meant to be satirical.
Prog is a genre of rock music but it's one that is defined by not having to follow rock rules. That includes the kind of instruments being used.
I don't even define rock music by it's use of the electric guitar, but by it's structure. Who says rock music can't be driven by keyboards? Ever heard of Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard? Or Elton John and Billy Joel?
ELP made some pretty intense songs that certainly qualify as "rock", guitar or no guitar. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 07:52
Main Entry:
Pronunciation: \ˈī-rə-nē also ˈī(-ə)r-nē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural
Etymology: Latin ironia, from Greek eirōnia, from eirōn dissembler
Date: 1502
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 08:14
That'll be what's wrong with ELP then...
You mean Yes and Rick Wakeman, presumably...
If they did, I would be forced to defend ELP to the bitter end... please, do NOT start a thread like this if only for that reason, as I would hate myself...
Not guilty - I put both down.
I tried - but unfortunately could only come to the conclusion that, on the whole, they were pretty bad.
They had their moments though - and there's no doubt that they were/are a highly influential Prog band.
Like ETL said - they're an easy target, but mostly, I think, it's because most of the negative criticism is just as true as the praise from the fans, and they frankly deserve what they get from BOTH.
I don't like them, but they're one of the greats, alright.
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 08:16
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ELP = Elephants Love Penis. or something like that ------------- 
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 08:22
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^I thought it was Peanuts? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 08:43
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For me personally, I dont rate ELP very highly for the following simple reasons:
Lack of guitar, inadequately compensated for by the other instruments. Keyboards limited mainly to Hammond and Piano, and some occassional Moog, leading to a predictable, limited and formulaic approach to writing songs. They massacre classical music in a way which should be punishable in law! Albums inconsistent in quality. One or two good songs, and a lot of guff. Yes, they are one of the great prog bands in terms of their influence, they're stature, and musicianship, but for my personal taste they just dont cut it. I thought their most consistent album was the debut. Depsite my feelings for what they did afterwards, the debut actually ranks as one of my favourite debut albums of all time. How they went from writing those songs to writing 'The only way' 'Benny the bouncer' and all that other bilge, I'll never know. It also puzzles me why the producer on Tarkus didn't stop the tape and insist Greg Lake sung in tune on 'The only way' He sounds like a drunk who's staggered into a midnight mass on Christmas Eve, and started wailing about the non existence of God. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 10:08
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I must be in a minority of people who don't feel passionately about ELP, either positively or negatively. |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 10:34
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Karn Evil 9 - First Impression only - an absolute STONKER of a track.
Er bits of Pictures at an Exhibition - The synth solo in The Old Castle, one of the best bits of moog EVER.
Tarkus track isn't too bad - but needed more Moog/shredding to be classed as a true classic.
Not too sure about any of the other stuff they produced - it's so easily forgotten  ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 10:57
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Posted By: halabalushindigus
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 11:09
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What's wrong with ELP? They are out there ------------- assume the power 1586/14.3 |
Posted By: Tursake
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 12:44
For me lack of guitar is just a nice change of pace, I'm getting tired of modern bands never using something as awesome as Hammond organs, and they certainly don't massacre classical music. They make it much more interesting, I can't imagine myself listening to the original of version of The Nutcracker, Nutrocker is way better 
------------- 
Last.fm: TursakeX RYM: Tursake |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 15:09
"Nutrocker" was originally by B Bumble and the Stingers in 1962, wasn't it? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 15:57
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 16:03
From what I've heard of Egg they are actually more comparable to The Nice. Personally I find Egg to be not very interesting. My love of ELP was never based on any classical appreciation but more Carl Palmers sheer force and speed on the drumkit and the inventiveness of the music. It took a while for me to get to appreciate the classical aspects of their music.
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 16:10
It actually sounds like there is something missing, whereas in VDGG - also noted for lack of guitar - the sax, and general cacophony ( ) seems to fill in the gaps.
For me, ELP are three excellent musicans who make valiant attempts to hit the target, but on most occassions, simply miss. With regard to classical music, I find their Pictures at an Exhibition almost unlistenable, surpassed only their toe curling rendition of 'Mars. The Bringer of war' with Cozy Powell. I'm a prog fan, and will give anything a go, and over the years I've acquired 5 ELP albums, including ELPowell. They have come up with some gems in their time. I like the Tarkus suite a lot. Lucky Man also moves me. There's even tracks on ELPowell and Black Moon I like, but alongside the other prog heavy weights of the 70's, I think they were too inconsistent. I'm going to see them - hopefully - at the High Voltage festival this summer. I'm sure I'll enjoy them. They have a well deserved reputation as great showman. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Keyspoet
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 16:59
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Growing up in L.A., my first ELP album was Tarkus, and came by way of a record review club in existence at the time - they sent you two or three albums a month, you sent them your reviews, and they would send you more albums. Most of the albums were unreleased generic presses in plain white cardboard sleeves, some good and some pretty abysmal, but occasionally they would send out a recently released album by a recognized artist, such as Tarkus. Too bad I no longer have most of the albums. ;-) Both of my parents were pianists, my father specializing in jazz and my mother in classical, and so I was blown away by the album since it had such strong jazz and classical influences. I was already a fan of Greg Lake's voice, probably because of The Court of the Crimson King, and quickly became a huge fan of Keith Emerson, since I am also a synth junkie (another favorite album of the period was Switched on Bach by Walter /Wendy Carlos). And Carl Palmer on drums was a masterstroke - driving, understated, or all out rocking, he ranks among the best. The problem with ELP in the early 70s is the same as that with Porcupine Tree and Steven Wilson's other projects today - the music has so many references, musical and otherwise, that it takes intelligence and effort to really get it fully, and the majority of listeners simply won't bother taking the time. I often find it a rather accurate intelligence test when people "don't get" bands such as ELP, King Crimson or Porcupine Tree, as their comments often betray. Then again, perhaps they simply have yet to really listen intently. Is the music self-indulgent? Yes, in fact, all great music must be to some extent, as any songwriter who is writing for the fans rather than to please him- or herself has already lost much of the passion needed to really shine. Steven Wilson is a good example of this, as is Mariusz Duda, of the Porcupine Tree - influenced projects Riverside and Lunatic Soul. A songwriter - or any kind of writer, really - has first and foremost to please him- or herself, and only then, after that is accomplished, to try to put it together in such a way as to please the fan base. Otherwise it can only be derivative. Little indulgences, such as Are You Ready Eddie or Lucky Man, can serve the albums well, rather than detract, if only to serve as a radical change of pace. I, for one, cannot imagine Jethro Tull's brilliant Passion Play absent The Hare Who Lost His Spectacles. And Pictures at an Exhibition was a milestone, up to and including Nutrocker - what's the big deal about letting the band have a little fun? It is their album, after all. ;-) I am also a Yes fan, but although they put out a number of albums and pieces I absolutely love, I do not consider them to be in the same class musically speaking as ELP. As arguably the first supergroup, ELP really were in a class by themselves, and it is too bad that they weren't able to overcome their differences sufficiently to keep it going. Than again, that is only my wish as a fan, which speaks not at all to their own aspirations, then or now. I will say that, as uneven as ELP could be, I still consider them to be far superior to Transatlantic, to whom I was recently introduced through a friend. Perhaps I haven't heard their best albums yet, but neither Stolt/Morse/Portnoy/Trewavas nor The Whirlwind have impressed me nearly as much as early ELP. Yes, they are great musicians, and the music is easy to get into, but that is also part of its weakness - there simply doesn't seem to be as much substance here, and some of the heart seems to have gone missing as well. I'll have to hear more of their music before I'm willing to write the band off, as I love Mike Portnoy's drums, and their recent concert video was a blast, but so far I am far less impressed than I expected to be. |
Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 17:51
| I could never ridicule or hate ELP's music, it is too intelligent for that. Their classical music connections are neither pretentious or "off the mark"-i find that aspect really cool, as i have a love affair with classical music itself, as well. I can listen to their Pictures At An Exhibition, and also appreciate the purely orchestral version (would recommend the Toscanini and the NBC Symphony version) and both are justified. The jazz element is also interesting, and worthwhile. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 18:24
That resumes the band quite perfectly. A guy with egos inflated to the maximum, writing music as big and pretentious and ostentatious and elephantistic as possible, in what amounts to the ultimate in rock masturbation, hence the genitalia reference. Or: a mammoth that stepped in classical music pieces that should have been left well alone. Or: A band that released ONE great masterpiece where their dreams or aiming higher actually paid off. -------------
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Posted By: halabalushindigus
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 18:32
and that masterpiece would be their first album, just because of the drum solo alone ------------- assume the power 1586/14.3 |
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: March 15 2010 at 18:40
------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 00:52
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I posted the text below in the other "ELP appreciation thread" but allow me to copy it here which is where it belongs. Apologies for the duplication.
It still does not fit into my head that this amazing band has got NOT EVEN ONE album with 5 stars at PA, I find it unbelievable.
When I see for example that Arena's Contagion, or Mike Oldfield's Amarok to name a couple have 5 stars... sure they are good albums and all my respect to Arena and Oldfield, but... that they can be rated higher than ELP debut, Pictures, Tarkus, Trilogy, Brain Salad or Welcome Back ??? sorry I still do not get it
 Some people say they would not rate ELPs albums with 5 stars because of Are You Ready Eddy, or of Lucky Man or of Benny the Bouncer... well I think that's very cruel, 'More fool me' is not a masterpiece and 'I know what I like' neither in my opinion, but I still give 5 stars to Selling England by the Pound (as most others do, seen that it's got the 5 star average).
I do not put ELP on the altar as demi-gods or whatever, they made some really weak songs and after Welcome Back they became bland and at times even pathetic, and I'm the first one to say so. But their good music... my god it belongs to the 'creme-de-la-creme' without question!
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 00:58
You can't see it, but I'm crying tears of blood. If you're serious, I hope one day you are embarrassed to have said that.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 01:40
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ELP rocks, and were undeniably the best prog band of the classic era for one plain and simple reason: they said they were. While I must admit, their best album (Brain Salad (in my opinion)) is not as good as the best of, say, Genesis, Crimso, and that flute playing band I'm so fond of, ELP just had the pure stones to do whatever the crap they felt like, call it art, and put it on an album. They were the KINGS of one-up-man-ship in the business. "How long is your longest track? A side? HA! WE wrote a song that's a side and a half long. And how many cartoon armadillos do your lyrics reference? What? Only two? Ours reference SEVEN. And how many orchestras did you take on tour to cripple your budget? Hmm? What's that? Losersaywhat?" Yeah. Thought so. ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 01:53
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 02:37
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The thing with all the criticisms of punk vs prog are a bit ridiculous. As we are forever being reminded rock is supposed to be young persons' (teen) rebellion music, re write the rules and be new. So in 1967 - 69 rock exploded in crativity and in 1976 - 1977 certain self important wind bags (the hypocrisy is bretataking but the lack of ironic self awareness just plain annoying.) They (media especially) clamped down on on rock. It had to be 3 chords 'n' the truth. While it's easier to review punk and focus on safety pins and not be too worried about time signatures it made for damned boring rock. Punk wasn't that fast, it certainly was not good generally. Funny - a bit. But the irony. Rock is only supposed to re write the rules but only in a very restrictive format and little or no deviations. Rewrite the rules but only if they have been set out before hand. Contrivance and pretentious? You can't get that more so with Johnny Rotten and his blasted Sex Pistols. The class dunce rules ok. These people had the nerve to tell people not only what to listen to but to what not listen to. The art rock brigade did not hold a gun to the audience's head; freedom to choose and respect for the individual (KE 9, 2112, Awaken) gave way to punk totalatarianism. You might think this was a long time ago and is irrelevant. But only a few years ago my Zeppelin T shirt got look of bitter hatred from a SEx Pistols T shirt (wearer obviously.) Or just lok at te tensions arising when at a Cancer Benefit concert by Pplant, Who, Paul Weller (whose band backed, poorly, Jimmy Page) Be careful of those imposing their views. They are entitled to express - I had no problem with that but when they sneer at ELP etc for being what they are, or for not being what others think they should be we have to be careful. Oh yes, I recall an interview with someone...Bill Bruford? Not sure but he was at an awards show and spotted Johnny Rotten getting on very well with Phil Collins. The interviewee remarked that sight was "not ... quite right" after all the torture punk exerted. Fact is The Nice (very important to ELP) then ELP made some of the most innovative non guitar rock and classical music at a time when hindsight was still ahead. They made great albums, displayed a sense of humour (very dangerous) when mosty rock fans seem very serious and especialy with punk rective and reactionary. ELP developed music. They created and were innovative technically - electronically. They could expand on stated themes and get incredibly intricate and still play with energy. t a great concert band. This was a very fertile period of rock - only over but the past 10 years has it been allowed to quietly (nothing too overt) grow. Keith Emerson reformed the Nice, now it's ELP's turn. Maybe a last hurrah but hopefully people will get to hear ELP as they heard Zeppelin at O2. How so many people said they had not heard music like that! There we have my periodic anti punk post prog rant. ELP made mainly great albums, some lesser moments but maintaining consistent greatness is very difficult in the face of so much (just see P.A.'s Ray Bennett, Flash) interview for what that can really mean. Bless their artistry. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 02:39
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Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 03:24
I was going to make a long post, but you've pretty much said most of it more eloquently than I could. Just to add that The Stranglers - the most adventurous UK 'punk' band - said that for a movement which was supposed to be about freedom, punk had an awful lot of rules. Needless to say they were not very popular with their peers. ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 03:31
, fun. A bit like with Zappa Mother's 1971 Fillmore East album. The build up and release with the fun performance of Happy Togther was superb timing. Fun, amongst all that serious comedy (sic.) Good album to go with mildly intoxicating refreshments (IMHO!) I thought Nut rocker was one of those perfect moments. The virtuosity is there but te context changed. After the serious Pictures comes a superbly played bit of fun with a certain sense of self irony. And ELP were a 1995 warm up act for Tull. So there's nothing wrong with self indulgence, etc, it's just that certain media types imply there is something suspect. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 03:43
Hmm... many punks also did not really "get" what McClaren, Lydon & Co were trying to do either.
Lydon/Pistols was no more contrived than any other band - that was one of the points. At least the Sex PIstols actually told people exactly what they were doing - "The Great Rock and Roll Swindle" is testament to this, as it jeers the Record companies that the Pistols ripped off (the same record companies that have rippied off so many artists over the generations - I think the Pistols deserve applause for their success here).
They made the rules while preaching anarchy - ie, the point should have been NOT to follow the rules but to do your own thing, but most punks were, as you put it, "class dunces" (Rotten/Lydon was an Art College dropout - not a dunce, as the dunce wouldn't have made it into college in the first place. On the contrary, Lydon can be scarily clever).
This aggressive blast of punk was what the music industry needed, though - it made it wake up and get into the 20th Century at long last - bands became more energetic, less likely to put up with rubbish from record companies, and more keen to do their own thing rather than follow the formulaic pattern - ironically, following in the shadow of the Prog Greats.
The Stranglers are an excellent example - although the Stranglers were worse than The Pistols when it came to pretending to being something they weren't.
They were so far away from being dumb punks it's not funny - but they behaved like them.
Then they released astonishing albums like "The Raven" and "Aural Sculpture".
The Sex PIstols can be seen as real artists (and I understand that some of the original members played previously in Prog or Prog-related bands or as session musicians - can't remember which). Lydon was famous as being a Hammill fan, and probably did not, as his T-Shirt boldly proclaimed, hate Pink Floyd. It was all part of the image - you had to "be there".
They weren't top-notch musicians, but were no slouches either, until Sid Vicious got signed up and things got out of hand.
The Pistols lied to everybody about everything - that was one of the core ideas of the band - to spread anarchy and chaos - and they did.
Much like ELP did in their music... (and I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way ).------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 03:44
Er. thats just your opinion....Transatlantic, three studio productions all showcasing breathtaking virtuosity! the year 2009 - and they produce a SEVENTY EIGHT minute epic (and thats trumping even ELP) - Morse's dodgy religious lyrics only slightly detract from a marvellously crafted progressive rock symphony. When I listened to it for the first spin, several times the hairs on the back of my neck stood up as the music took my brain into "prog space"....You selected an unfortunate band to compare ELP with I think  ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 04:30
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Just 'cause Pictures was a live album I think it counts. It's not as though it was previously released material. Well, not by ELP and Greg Lake did add lyrics, serious stuff to serious music appropriately countered with Nutrocker. ELP ****(*?) PicturesAt An Exhinbition ****(*?) Tarkus ****(*?) Trilogy **** Brain Salad Surgery ***** Incidentally something I have always wanted to know, hope someone has an idea. Deceased Music jock John Peel (normally so right) once described ELP as a waste of talent and electricity. Now he did have The Nice on his radio shows but I don't think ELP did BBC sessions. Not heard of any anyway. He once cold shouldered Ian Gillan, once Deep Purple found fame and fortune as,accordingt to Gillan, that any band that didn't need Peel type shows (anymore) were off his radar and were now irrelevant sell outs - or words to that effect. I wonder if this prejudice influenced his influential opinions on the easily influenced? |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 05:08
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There was talk that ELP would become ELP&H (Hendrix) at one time - Now that would have been pretty amazing.
It is sad that a band who released Brain Salad Surgery is not more highly regarded as BSS was an absolute classic in its time. 5 stars in my book any day. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 05:13
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They weren't top-notch musicians, but were no slouches either, until Sid Vicious got signed up and things got out of hand.
The Pistols lied to everybody about everything - that was one of the core ideas of the band - to spread anarchy and chaos - and they did.
Much like ELP did in their music... (and I don't necessarily mean that in a bad way [/QUOTE]).This underlines my point. How retrograde is sacking your bass player, getting someone more "glamorous" aboard unable to play the riff to God Save The Queen - which totally irellevantly I liked and still do. The Jubilee Year prank was hilarious. The media stictched up that Number 1 in 77 by retending Rod Stewart was the Top of the Pops. Still 3 chords and the Truth, er, lies! Anarchy and chaos? They weren't allowed to play anywhere. Venues were closed. And it was only fashion that had the media helping spread the lies. All of this is fine and entertaining enough. I like a good laugh even though I'm into prog rock - or is it especially? But it was this punk / media insistence that I cannot and should not listen to these musicians who are oh, 25 - 30 year old dinosaurs. This permeate4d for years after. What's more punk nearly killed the music industry. They ruined the UK's otherwise fine name in rock exports to the US and it took Zeppelin and Floyd to rescue sales in 1979 / 1980. Oddly we now have more anarchy and chaos with piracy (to slowly and loosely return to the topic.., Pirates that is.) Hope my typos are gone. My PC screen seems to be doing odd things on PA's site at the moment. The only thing wrong with ELP is that sometimes they produced material that one may feel could have been better. Same as just about anybody. Unlike just about anybody they have a clutch of classics. cheers 'n' beers |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 05:18
He was a major figure in UK music but Peel was a queer bird. He also cold shouldered Jethro Tull, literally crossing the road to avoid them after they started getting some success. This after coming out with the statement "The Underground is like a woman that is endlessly pregnant but never has a baby. So sad" I saw a programme about the box of his favourite 50 singles that Peel carried around with him and Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack by the Nice was in there(!) He was a major champion of the group, but again when the mainstream beckoned he turned against them (or at least Emerson). ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 05:22
Yes, that was before Carl Palmer was in ELP. Mitch Mitchell was supposed to be thr drummer. So it might have been HELM than HELP. I think it was an Enerson interview hwere he said the Hendrix crowd scared he and Lake to death. Hendrix and Emerson. Now there's a scary thought. |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 05:42
That was it. Ian Anderson, not Gillan. Got my Ians crossed. His (Peel's) attitude was odd. Must've have given Johnny Rotten his "I hate PF" T shirt after TDSOTM. Now there's a sell out for ya. In his terms anyway. Perhaps if every act turned up it's toes after being on his show then things would appear different. Clearly the publicity of quality music and the concomitant benefits was bad thing. So if a band is successful on it's own artistic merits (Pink Floyd, Tull) that is bad, then being a dismal failure (commercially) is great. He still failed to give a basis of reasoning. ie why he thought ELP were so inferior rather than that he did think so. And in his position it is his responsibility to back his opinion with some reason. This is adult rock, prog rock after all, not teenybopper land. Well, for the most part. |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 06:06
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The only reason I ever heard him give for not liking ELP was that he went to one of their concerts and thought it was "b*llocks" (shucks these DJs are so articulate). He also seemed particularly put out that the audience was full of "middle class t*ssers" (surely The Nice's was as well?). Might have been a bit of self-loathing there as he was resolutely middle class himself of course (ex-Public school) despite his obscurely acquired working class scouse accent.
------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 06:21
As much as I did like John Peel when I was a teenager, he was just another public school educated BBC bod, who desparately wanted the kids to like him. He was actually a big fan of Floyd, before they started selling too many records. He liked Tull too, prior to them progging up. He seemed to live by the ethos that music was not valied, unless the artist had been raised in a sewer, and had dung for breakfast everyday. Peel should have taken note of the large numbers of 'middle class t**sers' attending Clash and Undertones gigs. Indeed, he should have taken note of the very comfortable backgrounds, the likes of Joe Strummer, J.Rotten and Pete Shelley had emerged from. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 06:56
Agree with that. It's irritating when Punk vs Prog is portrayed as some kind of class war struggle as this is a ridiculous simplification. Punk no more came from "the street" than prog did. In prog terms some like Peter Hammill and Genesis were from comfortable backgrounds but Wakeman was London working class, Jon Anderson was a former lorry driver from Accrington and Greg Lake by his own admission "didn't have a pot to p*ss in" when growing up in Dorset. ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 08:27
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Wakeman was middle class! - he had Piano lessons. The Likes of Peel and Anthony H. Wilson were both Oxford/Cambridge Graduates who wanted to appear cool (thus their affiliation with the new-wave in 1976/77) - Wilson claimed to have been at THAT gig at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester (I suspect that was a porky-pie). Appearently, when alone and relaxing, Wilson used to listen to mainstream Classical music....Music was just for money-making and his public image......
The same probably goes for Peel.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 09:06
So having piano lessons makes you a toff then? Fair enough. Perhaps I've just been fooled by Rick's Cockerney accent.  ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 10:58
I think he was upper working class.. He was born in Perivale, London and went to grammar school. He studied piano, and apparently clarinet at the royal college of music, but didn't complete his education there. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: halabalushindigus
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 11:08
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There is an army of ants outside milling around, so I've decided to play "Iconoclast" to make them "happy" ------------- assume the power 1586/14.3 |
Posted By: Cactus Choir
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 11:15
Thanks for clarifying that Blacksword. Of course I should have realised that any attempt to decipher the British class system is both foolish and fraught with pitfalls. ------------- "And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!" "He's up the pub" |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 12:26
I'm also crying and my stomach burns after reading that... I hope one day you suffer from humilliation for having said that... -------------
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 12:35
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Emerson was bashed plain and simple for the theatrics on stage. Which many great musicians follow this path like Ian Anderson but, sometimes later in life looking upon it as a foolish act and wish never to return to it. Quite like Peter Gabriel wishing not to re-live his past with Genesis. To observe the attitudes of the YES fan verses the ELP fan, which in the 70's was a disease that infested everybody it seemed, is quite ridiculous to even think about .......But in fact it is the reason for ELP bashings to rule the universe today. It's a mentality that developed over decades. When I listen to Beggars Opera, Rare Bird, and various other prog bands from the early 70's, I can plainly hear the most obvious influences of Keith Emerson with the Nice. Graham Field was an outstanding player but I don't think I was very fond of all the artists that emulated the Emerson style and sound. Emerson had such a huge impact on European musicians during that magical early 70's period. For the longest time, people tried endlessly to either play like him? or emulate his synth sounds and not so much his structure. The history of this is indeed fascinating to me due to how Emerson was followed and worshipped by European musicians. He was an icon to many young progressive musicians that hailed from the ranks of other prog bands. Especially in the early 70's Nice period.
In the late 70's there were a huge amount of outstanding keyboardists in the Philadelphia area that were highly influenced by Keith Emerson. As a musician, I can honestly say that back in the 70's Keith Emerson had all great musicians doing their homework. In music college there was a mentality about Carl Palmer being a great diverse drummer of amazing speed but, played in a rock band which was shameful. It was basically a jazz snob concept that developed when Carl Palmer turned up in the media playing wild drum solos. These people were part of a club. I couldn't believe how many anti-Carl Palmer musicians there were. These types of social outbreaks were at that period in time crucial to the image of ELP.
All these examples that I give when anyalized, are of a percentage of groups that were for one reason or the other, anti-ELP. During the 70's when this type of behaviour was spreading a disease, it consisted mainly with musicians. For whatever reason? Jealousy maybe? It couldn't have been the large percent of hard rock fans from the early 70's, which it might enter your mind that it would be. It's maybe difficult to get the visual on a kid from the early 70's who listens to Humble Pie, Foghat, Jimi Hendrix and Black Sabbath that is running down the block screaming ....I've got my ELP tickets! As a house rule (so to speak), many kids from the early 70's that collected hard rock were not too fond of European prog. But most kids allowed ELP to creep in and as a result many hard rock fans enjoyed ELP more than their rock heroes. I remember kids trying to dance to the strange time signatures and.....I mean it was just very strange. All the parties kids would have when they would play mostly hard rock and there came this special moment where everyone would sit for ELP. I found that to be a fine experience. I'm not being extreme here....just honest. For whatever these thousands of kids took ELP to be, or to identify with was beyond me. It wasn't always about the rapid structure of notes. There was just something about the band in 72' that caused people to investigate. I used to think maybe it was the marketing concept that the name...Emerson, Lake & Palmer was used in the same fashion as Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. Many people who were fans of top 40...like maybe ....Linda Ronstadt, The Carpenters, etc....were hypnotized by the name, bought the records and became huge fans. In the music business various female pianists..folk/singer songwriter artists loved Keith Emerson's piano work. These groups of people hardly ventured into other prog...just Keith. ELP really reached top 40 people big time with TRILOGY. Talk about extreme measures? How ELP reached this many groups of people I will never know. They were somehow inspired. It's not a point of one specific crowd regarding the popularity of ELP. They had musicians doing their homework and fans following them around the globe.
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Posted By: arnoldlayne
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 14:04
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Personally I only have the Works albums - aside from that I really like 'Take A Pebble' and 'Lucky Man' from the debut. I can't see the problem with ELP, aside from the fact that Keith Emerson does come across as a bit of a t**ser, but like that matters when you're listening to the music! Roger Waters is hardly a cuddly bunny, but I practically worship the ground he stamps his curmudgeonly feet on! When compared to their contemporaries, ELP probably do suffer a bit, but then in my opinion that is some serious competition - Yes, Genesis, Floyd, Zep, Crim, Christ, even Bowie were all on a blinding roll in the first half of the 70s. Bet I've forgotten someone there...
I think a previous poster had it right when they said it's part of the cultural landscape (certainly in Britain) that thou shalt mock ELP as widdly-diddly folly peddlers who are never to be trusted. Prog might be rehabilitated a bit these days (when I first heard Floyd back in the 80s they were soooo uncool, but now of course everybody loves em!!) but ELP might always be the embarrasing example naysayers will use without even having listened to the music.
There's the key...how many haters actually listen to it to find out?
Exactly.
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 14:05
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To answer the original question, there is nothing wrong with ELP, and people who have cited their huge influence on many bands of both the era and later are spot on. The trouble with fandom is that it almost always, with a significant minority, descends into a who's better than who argument, which is pretty pointless given that this is all subjective anyway. For my money, ELP simply did or do not give me as much pleasure as my favourite prog bands, and from the era, I always far preferred the output of bands such as Genesis, Yes, Floyd, Crimson, Tull & etc. That is not to say there is anything wrong with ELP, I just wasn't particularly keen on them. As for the accusation of being bombastic & overblown, this is the silly charge laid against virtually every prog act by a majority of journalists & critics since about 1977. I learned to ignore tosh such as that years ago. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 15:43
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 17:00
Snobbery knew no bounds. Even Leonard Bernstein used to wind Emerson up 'Oh, Keith's writing a Piano Concerto,' in sarky tone. I think one of the problems is that most genres of music are supposed to do something that other genres cannot do. So when a rock band features stunning drumming, rock is only supposed to reflect teen angst, not be a vehicle for great musicianship. Put that man in his place, Rock is the only form of music where you can be criticised negatively for playing fantastically. Jazz looks down on rock becuase most rock well, it is uneducated and probably technically inferior to most jazz. This is a bit snobby as both musics do what they ares supposed to. Jazz accepts (for the most part) musical progression. Rock only does so whenever it is fashionable (the pop side). I mean prog to punk - hip hop is hardly musical progression in terms of sophistication. But rock is not about musical sophistication so when this phenomena turns up there is a pile up of voices. You may have borne witness to the Dream Theater posts on this site. If DT were less sophisticated there would not be such wondering if DT were prog rock vs straight metal. This is just an example not a prompt to extend that debate here btw. Aaron Copeland liked the full treatment Palmer and Lake played of Fanfare (KE just played him the single version which he thought sucked - not adventurious enough. IMHO this was a great tune for the radio - wonder how it would um, fare now if released? ELP were a huge concert draw. Vastly ambitious and played their hearts out. This may have contributed to Emerson's hand problems I wonder? Too much touring, the demands on him were that of a concert pianist and he had the thatrics. Of course if they had sat around "just playing" they would have been sl*gged off for that. You can't win. (Unless you like their music and can hear and listen to it.) |
Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 19:23
I would love for you to expound on this.
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 21:29
I once had an interview cassette tape where Ian Anderson states ....."I can no longer be the Ian Anderson that I was back in 1972......spinning and jumping around on stage. Wearing tights and various clothing that looks quite silly to me now. Maybe he had a few too many to drink when he said all of this? Maybe he changed his viewpoint since then? This was decades ago on a cassette tape given to me by a record store owner.
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Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: March 16 2010 at 22:01
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Okay, I've had a few beers and feel compelled to defend ELP. First, let's put rock and roll keyboards into perspective.
In the beginning was Little Richard (and I suppose Jerry Lee Lewis...but I'm trying to be brief). Little Richard was flamboyant, rarely just sitting at his piano playing, though of course he did that, just hyperactively. He was, besides an excellent rock pianist (not to mention songwriter), a showman.
As rock wended its way into the '60s, well the ol' keyboard player was not quite so popular. In fact I can't think of a single rock keyboard player who attained any status early on. After The Beatles hit (I'm talking in the U.S.), well they didn't exactly feature any keyboard player. The British Invasion bands, with the notable exceptions of The Dave Clark Five and The Animals, didn't really bring along a keyboard player, did they?
As those bands grew, and their influence either waxed or waned, well keyboards, especially the Vox Continental, became a bit more popular. But again look at the bands with significant keyboard influence: ? and the Mysterians; Sir Douglas Quintet; Zombies; Sam the Sham & the Pharoahs. I'm leaving out many, but all of these had significant organ-driven songs. So the keyboard as a lead rock instrument had been re-established. Now as we move into say 1966, they organ becomes still more accepted. The Young Rascals and Paul Revere & The Raiders come to mind. And once we move into the 'psychedelic' era, the organ continues to be an integral part of many a band (early Grateful Dead, early Steve Miller Band, early Country Joe & The Fish, and the British counterparts, um, The Nice with that dude Emerson.).
Now, guitar still reigns supreme. Clapton, Hendrix, Beck & Page with the Yardbirds. They get the press. They're up there on stage, doin' the moves, playing the music.
Emerson is no idiot. He's a young guy, wants to be a star. He's gotta be thinking, why can't I get the press? He's gotta be thinking, why can't I be the Hendrix of the Hammond organ? Maybe rock my little L3 back and forth, maybe stick knives in the keys, put on a show. He's gotta be thinking, rightly I believe, I'm the finest rock organist out here. Why should I just sit on that bench and play? If Hendrix can light his guitar on fire, if Townshend can smash his to oblivion, well why not reach. Why let them get all the glory? It'll get some press. And lo, it was true.
Let's be realistic. The Nice, a good band, was never destined for stardom, not with that singer. So why not hook up with Lake and Palmer, good pedigrees both. Why not make that first ELP album? Which basically is the equivalent of Led Zep's debut, or Hendrix's debut...yes, I'm warping the timeline a bit here.
And with success, and with new electronics just coming into existence (the Moog synth), why would he not grab onto that technology, and milk it for all it was worth? And yes eventually the theatrics, which had an absolutely legit purpose early on (bring the keyboard player up to status with the very best guitarists), would get the best of it, considering that Elton was perhaps the competition in that realm.
In the end, ELP get a little to full of themselves. Not the first artists that's happened to. I still say, for a period there, Emerson was the man and his influence is widely felt in, and bascially responsible for, pretty much any band, at least those that have keyboards, that's on this site. Obviously, we're all free to like or dislike their albums. Check my reviews. I have issues with all of them; I'm not a pure fanboy. But at their best, well ELP are in a class of their own.
And if you'll tolerate a couple of metaphors...
I think it was Icarus who flew a bit too close to the sun. Ya can't blame the guy for trying.
And I think it was Sisyphus who kept trying to roll that rock up the hill. Ya can only roll that rock so far, before the rock will roll over you. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: halabalushindigus
Date Posted: March 17 2010 at 00:26
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^excellent ------------- assume the power 1586/14.3 |
Posted By: Sacred 22
Date Posted: March 17 2010 at 00:54
| ELP is like Genesis to me. I loved both bands in the 70's as a young guy but today being 2010 and me being considerably older; both bands have lost their collective appeal to me. Oh, I still listen as I prefer random play these days to specific play. I guess the lack of guitar and Emerson's disdain for the Mellotron are a couple of reasons but having said that, ELP still appeals to me as a band I like to listen to now and again. |
Posted By: halabalushindigus
Date Posted: March 17 2010 at 01:22
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There is nothing wrong w/ E LP ------------- assume the power 1586/14.3 |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 17 2010 at 02:47
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Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: March 17 2010 at 03:03
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[/QUOTE]
You mention that Leonard Bernstein used to wind up Emerson. I expect you are aware of the anecdote in Emersons autobiography 'Pictures At An Exhibitionist' when Bernstein was invited into the studio to listen to ELP's then new recording 'Pirates' of which Emerson was justifiably proud of.Bernstein as usual was not impressed. Greg Lake was also there and Bernstein started comparing himself to Beethoven (or some major classical composer) .Not sure of the exact words but Lake chimed in with ''Don't worry Lenny no one is going to confuse your music with Beethoven''. Emerson nearly died on the spot[/QUOTE] I think I might've read that - quoted somewhere anyway, ELP list? Hilarious, I love things like that!   |
Posted By: M27Barney
Date Posted: March 17 2010 at 05:10
Upper working class
- isn't that just lower middle class ? and a 'Toff' is upper class...like Phil the Greek - who in most respects is really a very good example of a lecherous old goat who can get away with it because of his "priviledged" position in Britains awful class system.... ------------- Play me my song.....Here it comes again....... |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: March 17 2010 at 05:59
The organ had popularity in jazz circles, didn't it?
Jimmy Smith is first to spring to mind, Booker T and the MGs and Wynder K Frogg.
In Blues rock, Graham Bond's ORGANisation surely made some impact - I've seen (albeit rather cheesey) TV clips of them predating 1965.
I know you're not trying to be completist - but these names are big... and I've probably missed loads!
Not forgetting the Doors, of course... and later, Art/Spooky Tooth and Pink Floyd.
There's some fairly persuasive argument from organ trio Clouds' camp that their early incarnation, 1-2-3 (who had residency at the Marquee during 1967) first brought the organ to the forefront, particularly with Billy Ritchie's habit of standing at the organ, and playing both it and the piano at the same time, seamlessly incorporating jazz, and not at all seamlessly incoporating Classical music - and allegory that Emerson only formed The Nice after seeing 1-2-3 perform. Before that, he played in P.P.Arnold's backing band and dreamed the dream. I'm probably nitpicking on the side of completeness, but I think the bands I mentioned are important in context - otherwise it's a good story, and sums up ELP's position really well.
I'm really interested to hear any comments about Clouds/1-2-3 from anyone that actually remembers them, as I have some contact with the band.
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |