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Topic ClosedGenesis were bad to its fans.

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Slartibartfast View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2009 at 23:49
Originally posted by Keppa4v Keppa4v wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

They got their just desserts with Calling All Stations because their fickle pop fans had largely moved on to the latest trendy thing and they had alienated most of their old prog fans already. 
Their fickle pop fans stayed with them well over ten years, that's pretty damn well. Or then they had many generations of them. Either their music was good pop and on Calling All Stations it wasn't anymore, or then more probably people didn't like the sexy frontman being gone.

Well, I wait with baited breath for their next album of new material either prog or pop. 

Actually, I picked up Calling All Stations, on the cheap I might add, a few years after it came out and kind of like it.  And I'll probably eventually complete my collection of their stuff in CD format.  The last LP I got was Invisible Touch.  I kind of liked that.  Abacab is often reviled, and I like that even better. 

Still my point, they moved away from my tastes and I moved away from them.  More power to them and me I say.  Gabriel and Hackett are still doing new material and the three are doing rehash.  I don't really have any problems with that. Ermm

People trash From Genesis To Revelation and I think that's a great album in context....


Edited by Slartibartfast - April 24 2009 at 06:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 03:58

Perhaps I should have made this a blog.
But basically my point is, it's not unreasonable for a progger to feel some sort of annoyance at collins and co.
I am surprised by many of your responses many of the review written about 80s Genesis belie 'matter of fact' responses this thread has generated. 
My point here is to put things in perspective. I believe fans are important to a band, Iron Maiden has shown this by them coming to NZ recently, if they didn't feel anything to their fans then they wouldn't have come. The fact is folks these bands are in entertainment its all about their audiences, if not it annoys us after all some posts have expressed frustration about Fripp's treatment of fans, the fact that he has got his lawyers
to take off his music of the archives gave many annoyance. Also those posts about hoping bands will come to your home country and play. This website is all about fans, you members are fans of different bands, so what on earth are you all talking about fans being silly? We are the fans, and about bands owing you nothing, don't we all attend or try to attend concerts, so spare me please this all these posts about bands owing nothing, I'm just being honest about my fandom, in NZ we get zilch prog, so count yourselves lucky that your bands do consider you and tour in your countries.WinkSmile




Edited by Cheesecakemouse - April 24 2009 at 04:00



  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 04:31
I think Genesis created their best albums in the Hackett era.
After Steve Hackett left, the music became poppier and less progressive. But as sure as eggs is eggs, no band can create masterpiece albums for more than a few years. Not even Genesis, Yes or Pink Floyd.
 
So we'd rather be grateful for albums like Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England and Wind and Wuthering than blame them for releasing lesser albums when they were no longer at their peak.
 
And if they call their old classics 'crap' nowadays, they may be wrong, but it's up to them...
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 04:41
Genesis started by trying (and failing) to make 3-minute pop songs. I've read interviews where they said it was much easier to add to their compositions and complicate them than it was to edit them to fit the pop single format. After about 10 years practice, they finally achieved what they originally set out to do.
 
It's not a problem to most people that a sports team doesn't have the same line up as it did when it first started. Nobody's going to argue that Manchester United should change their name because George Best doesn't play for them any more, are they?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 04:49
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:


 progger



I will sh*t bricks of hate and fury if I see that term being used again.
I feel so ridiculously embarrassed just reading the term, let alone if I actually called myself that, urghhh.
A lot of people here just like music in general, prog or not.
Please do not use that term, arghhh.


Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - April 24 2009 at 04:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 05:12
Originally posted by birdwithteeth11 birdwithteeth11 wrote:

Omg Genesis became a pop band because Phil Collins didn't want to do prog anymore.

I'm sorry, but get over it. Bands change and people change, as radical as that may sound to some of us. Wacko
Damn right. A forum for discussion Yes......fan discontent on group evolution with the times...No. Can you imagine if Genesis continued playing new SEBtP type compositions well into the 80's...just not realistic, sorry. It is easy looking back as an armchair critic but those guys lived and breathed Genesis. There are many Gensis fans who liked most of the post Duke albums and with the exclusion of Collin's Disney solo escapades, actually enjoyed his music too.
 
I look back on this bands output over the years and it beggars belief how brilliant they were, 80's and all.The band changed and most fans shared that journey too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 05:40
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:


Perhaps I should have made this a blog.
But basically my point is, it's not unreasonable for a progger to feel some sort of annoyance at collins and co.
I am surprised by many of your responses many of the review written about 80s Genesis belie 'matter of fact' responses this thread has generated. 
My point here is to put things in perspective. I believe fans are important to a band, Iron Maiden has shown this by them coming to NZ recently, if they didn't feel anything to their fans then they wouldn't have come. The fact is folks these bands are in entertainment its all about their audiences, if not it annoys us after all some posts have expressed frustration about Fripp's treatment of fans, the fact that he has got his lawyers
to take off his music of the archives gave many annoyance. Also those posts about hoping bands will come to your home country and play. This website is all about fans, you members are fans of different bands, so what on earth are you all talking about fans being silly? We are the fans, and about bands owing you nothing, don't we all attend or try to attend concerts, so spare me please this all these posts about bands owing nothing, I'm just being honest about my fandom, in NZ we get zilch prog, so count yourselves lucky that your bands do consider you and tour in your countries.WinkSmile
 
 
 
 
 
 
Confused
 
Not sure I am getting the basis of your post. Are you saying NZ is deprived of prog bands touring? Do you think Iron Maiden toured NZ because they wanted to thank their fans or make money or...both? Jeff Beck just toured NZ as did Roger Waters, less recently.
Collins also played more obscure prog than Banks and Rutherford put together with Brand X....I think Banks and Rutherford had a large role to play too on the direction of the band




Edited by Chris S - April 24 2009 at 05:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 07:00
I think in the end they made all the great prog albums they had in them and their pop was good pop.  Just wish they hadn't expressed such contempt for the fans of the old stuff.

Edited by Slartibartfast - April 24 2009 at 07:01
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 07:16

I had a long response planned out, but I'm too lazy to actually type it all, so I'll make my response a bit shorter.  If it weren't for albums like Abacab, Genesis and 90125, I might not have discovered prog, at least not as early as I did.  How many others in their mid- to late-30's/early 40's did Genesis and Yes bring into the realm of prog by exploring more radio-friendly territory?  Also, neither band completely abandoned their prog roots.  Genesis continued to do some long-form songs and usually had one nice long instrumental jam on each album.  And some of their pop stuff (though not all) was quite enjoyable.  Yes, although shortening the song length generally during Rabin's tenure, still performed complex music, with some great vocal harmonies, and even threw in a really cool 15+ minute song in the form of Endless Dream. 

 Those fans disappointed by the direction Genesis took in the 80's had one very good option available to them.  They didn't have to buy their albums or attend their concerts.  Do I wish they had done more songs like Domino, Home by the Sea, Fading Lights and Mama and less songs like Invisible Touch, Throwing It All Away and Illegal Alien?  Yes.  But it's not my band.  On the other hand, I also probably would have been bored with them if they'd produced Foxtrot II, Foxtrot III and Foxtrot IV and chances are so would they.  I can't see demonizing one person or a band for deciding they wanted to do something a bit different from what they had done before.
 
Ok. Longer than I thought. Embarrassed
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 07:18
I'm listening to my son's favorite song.  "Can-Utility and the Coastliners."  Approve
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 07:32
If Genesis ingnored their fans, then what explains the appearance of Apocalypse/Eggs is eggs and Los endos in the Invisible touch tour setlist?

Yes, their musical tasted changed and they did (very good) pop albums in the 80's, but they always played some of their old epics live. And their later albums do include more unusual stuff, like Domino and Home by the sea.

You can be as cynical as you like, but I really believe that they changed their style because they just wanted to play more straightforward material, and the wanted to survive.

And what comes to PC calling The musical box "old crap", I'm sure that's just a rumour.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 13:29
Originally posted by Cheesecakemouse Cheesecakemouse wrote:


What am I saying here? I believe that a band can grow and experiment but remain true to their sound, while a solo artist has no such obligation they can be diverse as they want; that is the nature of solo work its about the artist exploring sounds outside of the requirements of the band.


Some times I think the same way, but I'm not sure about that. Do you think The Beatles remained "true to their sound" in all their albums, I don't think so, they completely changed their sound and style and no one seem to complain about that. I think artists should make the music they feel like, some people may like it and some may not, they shouldn't worry too much about pleasing their fans. They should be true to themselves and what they really want to do more than true to their sound.
I don't like many of the songs on Invisible touch and We can't dance, but ok, they made a couple of weak albums and went poppier, like a lot of other bands did, it's not such a big deal. Anyway, in my opinion there's some quality music in all their albums, even the weaker ones, and I completely disagree with people who thinks the bands changed completely from one day to the next one after Peter left, or after Hackett left, like they sold out or something, it was transitional from album to album.

In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 14:05
The second album I bought was the shapes album when I was 11 or 12 years old. I listened to that thing hundreds of times and really enjoyed it. Along with Peter Gabriel's pop output, this is what led me to the classic era. I actually enjoyed Abacab too. My younger brother listened to Invisible Touch a zillion times (when he was about 8).....that music connected with people at that time in that place. It doesn't hold up artistically in the same way years later, but I still have some fond memories.
 
And in terms of what is owed the fans...if you separate the pop Genesis fans and the prog Genesis fans, there were more of them than us.
 
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 14:29

Great posts.... What a lot fans need to realize is that, for better or for worse, 1). they are never a consideration when an artist is in the midst of the creative process,  2). great artists evolve. I'm sure Kandinsky alienated many fans of The Blue Rider when his works became more geometric and abstract during the 1920's and 1930's. Furthermore, many artists wish to leave their past in the past, or some of it. If Phil thinks "The Musical Box" is crap, imagine what he must think of "Return of the Giant Hogweed".

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 16:05
Does anybody have a problem with the 80s King Crimson being King Crimson and not Discipline?

I thought so.

Then why the Cinema/Yes problem? Crimso changed just as much if not more, and a larger percentage of members were new to the band.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 19:45
You know, Geddy Lee had stated at one point in the 80s (during their synth period) that they couldn't stand some of their early material , that it was painful to their ears. He said it was like looking at the drawings you made in kindergarden.
Then the 90s come around, and finally in the new millenium,  doggonit , they turn around and get back to playing the ear ache music of yore.
Looking back, I wonder if the frustration was more that Rush's fans couldn't see that the band was in a different space at the time (late 80s).
The same as Roger Waters having to deal with shouted requests for Syd's songs, and replying that it wasn't '67 anymore .
And so it comes down to a double edge sword - a die hard is so attached to his favourite band that he'll support it for ever. But a die hard will also feel betrayed if his favourite band no longer plays the music the fan demands.
Neil Young has gotten away with it. But then, more than a few of his albums are not in his fan's collections.
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 20:57
Fripp plays whatever he wants.

Can't fault him there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 22:02
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Fripp plays whatever he wants.

Can't fault him there.


now replace Fripp with "everyone" TongueLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 22:07
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Zappa plays whatever he wants.

Nobody can fault him!


Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2009 at 22:16
Originally posted by cacho cacho wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Zappa plays whatever he wants.

Nobody can fault him!


Wink


Megawin.
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