Genesis were bad to its fans.
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=57385
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Topic: Genesis were bad to its fans.
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Subject: Genesis were bad to its fans.
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 20:40
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This is an issue i'd like to address. Fans get irate about the change in direction Genesis took in the 80s, Collins Banks and Rutherford counter argue that bands change. This retort may appear a reasonable statement by itself, but they managed it in an unreasonable way; Firstly they dismissed their past; I have heard stories about when Genesis were on tour fans were caling out for then to play Musical box, Collins answered "back we don't play that crap anymore." Thus dismissing music that moved many people, and alienating an audience that were supporting the band when they weren't as popular. They could have brass in their music while still sounding like Genesis and not have that foreign song Paperlate. I see this behaviour as arrogant. Yes bands do change their sound but many have achieved that while respecting their fanbase and embracing their past, for instance Iron Maiden evolved their sound has changed many times over the years with many experimentation but have never dismissed their past, they play the songs their fans like old and new. They are now talking about playing only their more recent material but their recent material has still strong connection to their past, they are a band that have put out good and bad albums, have changed singers but still have maintained their artistic aesthetic, and any change such as the controversial Bayley on vocals is understandable. Again Rush has been similar in many respects to its fans as Iron Maiden Secondly Phil Collins is absolutely entitled to write whatever he likes on his solo albums, the same goes for Mike and the Mechanics and Tony Banks. But when Collins included his songs on Genesis albums, he should have made sure they had some sort of reference to the Genesis sound, you hear many stories of band members doing solo but adding music to the band that fits in well with their music, while sticking the music that doesn't fit in to their solo material because they respect their fans. If they have ever made that mistake or done an album that doesn't fit in their bands catalogue they often repent. Genesis allowed songs alien to their sound constantly on different albums. They again came across arrogant to their fans. Thirdly their sound embracing trends and conformity. Genesis's music was largely anti-convention like most other prog. I understand that bands do flirt with wider success I don't think thats wrong, but thing is many of them have maintained their uniqueness, Rush and Split Enz achieved this, (although Enz last 2 albums were more foreign the band was falling apart and they don't consider their last 2 albums any good [see example 2]). If Genesis wanted to have singles they could still do it while still being Genesis. Some more things I'd like to point out you may argue that Yes did the same with 90125, but the fact is they were going to be a band called Cinema at that time, but the executives thought otherwise, I don't blame Trevor Rabin for the choices he made, he was against them being called Yes, it was another band, and you know how it got messy for them. Another may argue Miles Davis did the same thing to his fans with Fusion, again I believe that this is different, Davis was constantly changing his sound right from the start; he experimented with orchestra, post bop. And also although he worked in a band context Davis wasn't a band he changed his line up all the time, he was under no obligation to continue a specific sound, he could have done country music if he wanted to. Also Davis unlike Genesis still stayed true to his roots, he still played Jazz, Genesis wrote In too Deep and other such tracks which are again foreign to their roots. In too Deep should have been on a Solo album. What am I saying here? I believe that a band can grow and experiment but remain true to their sound, while a solo artist has no such obligation they can be diverse as they want; that is the nature of solo work its about the artist exploring sounds outside of the requirements of the band. So IMO opinion that is why Genesis gets a roasted, Banks Collins and Rutherford are asking for it, they were bad to us. ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: OzzProg
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 20:46
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Sorry to answer your large post so briefly, but I think you (and Trevor Rabin) have a point. If bands would change their names when members leave / styles change, it would nullify this entire mess. Genesis should have ended after Hackett left. Yes should have ended with Trevor Rabin (and as you said, he thought so as well), and Yes could have restarted with The Ladder. -------------  |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 20:48
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they weren't bad to the fans, they wanted to keep putting food on their
plate. The smoke cleared from the 70s and quite frankly no one was
buying their music anymore. People say artist this and fans that but to
pull a line from my favorite reviewer of all time: "fans are whiny, complaining dipsh*ts who are never EVER happy with anything you ever give them, the sooner you tune them out the happier you'll be for it." a bit harsh, but it's true. Get over the fact that they changed. If they didn't then they would all be in the gutter trying to play firth of fifth on their ratty old accoustic guitar to passers by who may spare a pence to get the b*****d clean shaven, but he'd just be spending it on booze because he hadn't sold a record since the bloody 70s. That aside, maybe they didn't want to play that kind of music anymore. They just didn't. They got different (and quite frankly, much MUCH more) fans while playing pop music, who whose loss is it? Theirs or ours? It's like your girlfriend leaving you for someone much better looking and complaining about how you don't know why and stalking them. GET OVER IT. |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 20:53
In this case someone far uglier... but still, your GET OVER IT point stands.
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King By-Tor wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 20:53
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I think it's unnecessary to feel that others should do what we'd like.. you make some valid points and Phil will probably eat his words someday, but it's their vision, not ours. It's kinda like when someone criticizes George Lucas for the prequel Star Wars films..thing is, it's his movie and I'm more interested in what he's got to say than what I envision it should be. Good or bad, we can't assume an artist's work is intentionally weak; an album is not up to par in our eyes, but the band may feel it's one of their best. And you can't really argue with a genuine view. |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 20:55
As far as mega amounts of money and fans and fame goes, it's actually much prettier. Prog is kind of the nerdy guy of the music world. Pop may be vain, but damn is he sexy  |
Posted By: King Crimson776
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 21:11
Fair enough, but which has the true substance? Oh right... it's that classical jerk... :P
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 21:17
It did.  I agree artists should do whatever they want, but if they want to milk the famous name for all the cash its worth, they're gonna hear about it from the faithful.....the price of cash-milking. Ask Roger Water if having the PF name helped with ticket sales in the late 80s. PF were playing stadiums, Roger was having trouble filling hockey rinks. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 21:23
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I am thankful for the wonderful music great bands have given me (a person not entitled to it), and hopefully I am not an ingrate by showing myself greedy for what they "should" have done. Be grateful. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 21:32
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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation - Fans are clingy, complaining dumbasses that will never ever be grateful for any concession you make. The sooner you shut our their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 21:37
True for some of them yes, but as long as they're payin the bills, they'll chirp away. We have a whole site based on fan expression of opinion....good and bad. |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 21:42
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To put it bluntly, I don't think bands owe their fans anything. They have every right to make the kind of music they want and fans either choose to follow or not. Don't like the new album? Don't buy it then, concentrate on different groups. A band name is more a label for the people making the music than for the music itself. You know, "Hello Cleveland! We are Spinal Tap." Despite their ever-exploding drummers and evolving from psychedelic pop into sleaze rock and crap jazz, they were always Spinal Tap. That's why people give their albums diffenrent names, to separate them from others. The name's different, the content is obviously different too, sometimes less, sometimes more. Sorry, I didn't sleep much, it's 5.40 in the morning...  ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA! 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 21:49
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I understand the sentiment in the original post and I have this somewhat old now retrospective VHS where they were very dismissive of the old fans in the interviews. So basically as they moved away from us, I moved away from them. I've said this before and I'll say it again. They got their just desserts with Calling All Stations because their fickle pop fans had largely moved on to the latest trendy thing and they had alienated most of their old prog fans already. This is why they are now relegated to just playing stuff from the past on their latest touring and not making anything new and vital anymore. Sadly enough not even in independent efforts either that I know of. So be it. There's a brave new world of prog out there these days, yet their old stuff will still hold a special place in my heart and mind. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 22:01
I beat you to it  |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 22:09
Their fickle pop fans stayed with them well over ten years, that's pretty damn well. Or then they had many generations of them. Either their music was good pop and on Calling All Stations it wasn't anymore, or then more probably people didn't like the sexy frontman being gone. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA!
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Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 22:16
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Omg Genesis became a pop band because Phil Collins didn't want to do prog anymore. I'm sorry, but get over it. Bands change and people change, as radical as that may sound to some of us.  ------------- 
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 22:49
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The thing with changing a band's name when a member leaves is this - Should the Beatles have found a new moniker after Pete Best's departure ? Did Mick & Keith have any right to keep the Rolling Stones as their identity ? How about Pink Floyd ? Really, it becomes a brand name. And as long as certain legal requirements are met, who really cares ? No Genesis fan who has a whit of knowledge of their music, is going to go out & buy Duke expecting it to sound like Trespass. Anthony Philips' leaving just meant that the sound changed to reflect Hackett's contribution, as small or large as it may have been. There are extreme examples of how ridiculous this can get. If you want the prime case, check out Molly Hatchet's Wikipedia entry to see how an original member lost his claim to the name. And as far as telling fans that you're not playing some thing ... well has anyone been offended by the comments that Robert Plant has had to make to TRY to put the Zep reunion rumours to rest ? If you're offended, then don't support the band. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: TealFoxes
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 23:18
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I don't think Genesis ever cared about how the public perceived the band; proggers or non-proggers. It's basically a group of gifted musicians of unique imagination who did whatever they wanted in their very own perception of what they like and consistently made irresistible melodies and songs. I also don't think anyone should bother labeling Genesis as a sell-out group after the ten years of unmatched prog albums they've brought to the world.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 23:24
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^ well said, they give us a decade of brilliance and then get thrown under the train when they decide to make a different, cleaner kind of music. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 23:37
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Ahh, if you don't like them, don't buy their albums.
After Duke I never bought any Genesis album and have both (ATTW3 plus Duke) gaining dust because I vnever listenthem.
For me is the worst music a once Prog band (my favorite done) did, so I enoy from FGTTR to W&W and that's enough for me.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 23:49
Well, I wait with baited breath for their next album of new material either prog or pop. Actually, I picked up Calling All Stations, on the cheap I might add, a few years after it came out and kind of like it. And I'll probably eventually complete my collection of their stuff in CD format. The last LP I got was Invisible Touch. I kind of liked that. Abacab is often reviled, and I like that even better. Still my point, they moved away from my tastes and I moved away from them. More power to them and me I say. Gabriel and Hackett are still doing new material and the three are doing rehash. I don't really have any problems with that.  People trash From Genesis To Revelation and I think that's a great album in context.... |
Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 03:58
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Perhaps I should have made this a blog. But basically my point is, it's not unreasonable for a progger to feel some sort of annoyance at collins and co. I am surprised by many of your responses many of the review written about 80s Genesis belie 'matter of fact' responses this thread has generated. My point here is to put things in perspective. I believe fans are important to a band, Iron Maiden has shown this by them coming to NZ recently, if they didn't feel anything to their fans then they wouldn't have come. The fact is folks these bands are in entertainment its all about their audiences, if not it annoys us after all some posts have expressed frustration about Fripp's treatment of fans, the fact that he has got his lawyers to take off his music of the archives gave many annoyance. Also those posts about hoping bands will come to your home country and play. This website is all about fans, you members are fans of different bands, so what on earth are you all talking about fans being silly? We are the fans, and about bands owing you nothing, don't we all attend or try to attend concerts, so spare me please this all these posts about bands owing nothing, I'm just being honest about my fandom, in NZ we get zilch prog, so count yourselves lucky that your bands do consider you and tour in your countries.  ------------- |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 04:31
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I think Genesis created their best albums in the Hackett era.
After Steve Hackett left, the music became poppier and less progressive. But as sure as eggs is eggs, no band can create masterpiece albums for more than a few years. Not even Genesis, Yes or Pink Floyd.
So we'd rather be grateful for albums like Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England and Wind and Wuthering than blame them for releasing lesser albums when they were no longer at their peak.
And if they call their old classics 'crap' nowadays, they may be wrong, but it's up to them...
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Posted By: vuh
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 04:41
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Genesis started by trying (and failing) to make 3-minute pop songs. I've read interviews where they said it was much easier to add to their compositions and complicate them than it was to edit them to fit the pop single format. After about 10 years practice, they finally achieved what they originally set out to do.
It's not a problem to most people that a sports team doesn't have the same line up as it did when it first started. Nobody's going to argue that Manchester United should change their name because George Best doesn't play for them any more, are they?
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 04:49
I will sh*t bricks of hate and fury if I see that term being used again. I feel so ridiculously embarrassed just reading the term, let alone if I actually called myself that, urghhh. A lot of people here just like music in general, prog or not. Please do not use that term, arghhh. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 05:12
I look back on this bands output over the years and it beggars belief how brilliant they were, 80's and all.The band changed and most fans shared that journey too. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 05:40
 Not sure I am getting the basis of your post. Are you saying NZ is deprived of prog bands touring? Do you think Iron Maiden toured NZ because they wanted to thank their fans or make money or...both? Jeff Beck just toured NZ as did Roger Waters, less recently.
Collins also played more obscure prog than Banks and Rutherford put together with Brand X....I think Banks and Rutherford had a large role to play too on the direction of the band ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 07:00
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I think in the end they made all the great prog albums they had in them
and their pop was good pop. Just wish they hadn't expressed such
contempt for the fans of the old stuff. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 07:16
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I had a long response planned out, but I'm too lazy to actually type it all, so I'll make my response a bit shorter. If it weren't for albums like Abacab, Genesis and 90125, I might not have discovered prog, at least not as early as I did. How many others in their mid- to late-30's/early 40's did Genesis and Yes bring into the realm of prog by exploring more radio-friendly territory? Also, neither band completely abandoned their prog roots. Genesis continued to do some long-form songs and usually had one nice long instrumental jam on each album. And some of their pop stuff (though not all) was quite enjoyable. Yes, although shortening the song length generally during Rabin's tenure, still performed complex music, with some great vocal harmonies, and even threw in a really cool 15+ minute song in the form of Endless Dream. Those fans disappointed by the direction Genesis took in the 80's had one very good option available to them. They didn't have to buy their albums or attend their concerts. Do I wish they had done more songs like Domino, Home by the Sea, Fading Lights and Mama and less songs like Invisible Touch, Throwing It All Away and Illegal Alien? Yes. But it's not my band. On the other hand, I also probably would have been bored with them if they'd produced Foxtrot II, Foxtrot III and Foxtrot IV and chances are so would they. I can't see demonizing one person or a band for deciding they wanted to do something a bit different from what they had done before.
Ok. Longer than I thought.  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 07:18
I'm listening to my son's favorite song. "Can-Utility and the Coastliners." 
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: St.Cleve Chronicle
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 07:32
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If Genesis ingnored their fans, then what explains the appearance of Apocalypse/Eggs is eggs and Los endos in the Invisible touch tour setlist? Yes, their musical tasted changed and they did (very good) pop albums in the 80's, but they always played some of their old epics live. And their later albums do include more unusual stuff, like Domino and Home by the sea. You can be as cynical as you like, but I really believe that they changed their style because they just wanted to play more straightforward material, and the wanted to survive. And what comes to PC calling The musical box "old crap", I'm sure that's just a rumour. |
Posted By: SgtPepper67
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 13:29
Some times I think the same way, but I'm not sure about that. Do you think The Beatles remained "true to their sound" in all their albums, I don't think so, they completely changed their sound and style and no one seem to complain about that. I think artists should make the music they feel like, some people may like it and some may not, they shouldn't worry too much about pleasing their fans. They should be true to themselves and what they really want to do more than true to their sound. I don't like many of the songs on Invisible touch and We can't dance, but ok, they made a couple of weak albums and went poppier, like a lot of other bands did, it's not such a big deal. Anyway, in my opinion there's some quality music in all their albums, even the weaker ones, and I completely disagree with people who thinks the bands changed completely from one day to the next one after Peter left, or after Hackett left, like they sold out or something, it was transitional from album to album. ------------- 
In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made... |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 14:05
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The second album I bought was the shapes album when I was 11 or 12 years old. I listened to that thing hundreds of times and really enjoyed it. Along with Peter Gabriel's pop output, this is what led me to the classic era. I actually enjoyed Abacab too. My younger brother listened to Invisible Touch a zillion times (when he was about 8).....that music connected with people at that time in that place. It doesn't hold up artistically in the same way years later, but I still have some fond memories.
And in terms of what is owed the fans...if you separate the pop Genesis fans and the prog Genesis fans, there were more of them than us.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 14:29
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Great posts.... What a lot fans need to realize is that, for better or for worse, 1). they are never a consideration when an artist is in the midst of the creative process, 2). great artists evolve. I'm sure Kandinsky alienated many fans of The Blue Rider when his works became more geometric and abstract during the 1920's and 1930's. Furthermore, many artists wish to leave their past in the past, or some of it. If Phil thinks "The Musical Box" is crap, imagine what he must think of "Return of the Giant Hogweed". ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 16:05
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Does anybody have a problem with the 80s King Crimson being King Crimson and not Discipline? I thought so. Then why the Cinema/Yes problem? Crimso changed just as much if not more, and a larger percentage of members were new to the band. ------------- http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=42652" rel="nofollow - It's on PA!
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 19:45
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You know, Geddy Lee had stated at one point in the 80s (during their synth period) that they couldn't stand some of their early material , that it was painful to their ears. He said it was like looking at the drawings you made in kindergarden. Then the 90s come around, and finally in the new millenium, doggonit , they turn around and get back to playing the ear ache music of yore. Looking back, I wonder if the frustration was more that Rush's fans couldn't see that the band was in a different space at the time (late 80s). The same as Roger Waters having to deal with shouted requests for Syd's songs, and replying that it wasn't '67 anymore . And so it comes down to a double edge sword - a die hard is so attached to his favourite band that he'll support it for ever. But a die hard will also feel betrayed if his favourite band no longer plays the music the fan demands. Neil Young has gotten away with it. But then, more than a few of his albums are not in his fan's collections. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 20:57
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Fripp plays whatever he wants. Can't fault him there. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Queen By-Tor
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 22:02
now replace Fripp with "everyone" |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 22:07
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Posted By: MovingPictures07
Date Posted: April 24 2009 at 22:16
Megawin. ------------- 
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Posted By: Orbit
Date Posted: April 25 2009 at 04:20
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Someone offered to give me a free Phil Collins VHS the other day. I took the Prince one instead. |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 25 2009 at 04:27
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Well both great artists.........Prince video more entertaining perhaps! ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 25 2009 at 05:09
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I remember seeing Genesis on the Abacab tour in Birmingham, and an audience member, right from the off, continually shouted "The Knife, The Knife, play The Knife!". Collins eventually brought out a toy rifle and pretended to shoot him. However, much to our surprise and delight, they did actually play it as an "extra" encore piece. There are some people who will never forgive Collins for the direction the band took after ATTWT, but they always miss the point. The other two were still principal songwriters and agreed almost wholly with the move to writing shorter, catchier tracks, except maybe Banks who loathed the second side of the Genesis LP, a mistake that was never to be repeated. I also enjoyed Calling All Stations, especially its darker moments, but by then the game commercially was really well and truly up. Fans who expect bands to continually rehash the original glories upon which they set their love of the band should contain themselves to watching the ridiculous number of tribute bands that are touring. The bands themselves move on, and we either live with it, enjoy, or simply choose not to buy. As I said in my series of Genesis LP reviews, most of the commercial music Genesis wrote as a threesome was damn good commercial music, and I will, for the rest of my life, be grateful to a band, in all its forms, that has given me so much pleasure over the years. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: April 25 2009 at 10:55
 I think this quote should be framed and hung up on PA's virtual wall . Personally, I am not a fan of Genesis' pop years - however, this is not because they betrayed prog, but just because their music leaves me cold, and I don't like Collins' voice that much. On the other hand, I love Yes' 90125, which is equally loathed by prog purists. 'Poppy' and 'commercial' don't automatically mean 'bad' - Peter Gabriel released a number of hit singles, which are damn good commercial music as well (to use Lazland's own words). I'd rather listen to "Sledgehammer", "Big Time" or "Owner of a Lonely Heart" than to the endless, rambling doodlings of many a 'retro-prog' band. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 25 2009 at 11:07
| I still have to ask the question, are the three capable of another album of new material as Genesis? |
Posted By: Stooge
Date Posted: April 25 2009 at 15:29
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I don't necessarily think Genesis were bad to their fans by changing their sound. They are also obviosly quite proud of their past as evident from their 1970-1975 boxset interviews and the fact that they played material spanning their entire career on their reunion tour. I was also thinking about what the original poster said about them telling fans wanting to hear their old stuff in the 80s that "we don't play that crap anymore", such a comment may have been as a response to hecklers (Why you'd pay to go to a concert just to heckle a band, I don't know). These comments from the band may have been made because they wished for the audience to give their new material a chance. I don't know how things were back then, but if I saw Genesis on the Abacab tour, i'd expect the bulk of their set to be from that album, and had I heard Abacab I'd expect that the days of The Musical Box were long gone. While I'd be upset if I was a Genesis fan when they made the pop transition in the late 70s (or if I was ALIVE in the 70s for that matter), I enjoy Duke quite a bit, and some of And Then There Were 3. At the end of the day, the band has the artistic control for what music they present the fans, and not the other way around. |
Posted By: esky
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 15:37
 What a poorly written essay. I mean, simply awful. Hard to take seriously when it's this bad. Better luck next time!
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 16:00
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After that atrocious third album without Gabriel I just couldn`t listen to them anymore. I even have difficulty listening to their early stuff to this day. I have to be in a weird mood and even then I can`t get the material from the late seventies onward out of my head. It`s like an old friend being betraying you. ------------- |
Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 18:13
What are you talking about? "Whodunnit" is as much Genesis as "Supper's Ready" is because they created it. OK, I really dislike the former but I'll defend their right to produce what the f**k they like. Whether you buy it or not is up to you. |
Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 18:21
OK Personally speaking I think "Undertow" (for example) is beautiful.
You just said you can't listen to them any more so why bother?
I'd have to be comatose to listen to music I didn't want to listen to
Try hypnotherapy
Oh for crying out loud! |
Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 19:05
| Congratulations Phil Collins, you're the world's biggest douche. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 22:18
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^Now that was useful. ------------- 
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Posted By: Alitare
Date Posted: May 07 2009 at 23:03
| Shhhh, don't anger him. He bites. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 08 2009 at 09:44
 At that point there seemed to be a glitter of hope. The death knell sounded when Hackett left. All hope faded into black. I remember taking our And Then There Were Three and buning them. It was sort of a voodoo ritual. It obviously achieved opposite results so I`ll personally take some of the blame for the band`s demise.------------- |
Posted By: toroddfuglesteg
Date Posted: May 08 2009 at 09:59
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I have stopped being angry at Phil Collins. I actually respect the guy now (no more camel dung through his bed room window). Genesis gave us some fantastic albums from their second one to Wind & Wuthering. I am listening to these albums a lot. We also have new bands who almost sounds like them. Go and watch THE MUSICAL BOX and/or THE WATCH doing old Genesis songs. I have heard both bands are the ultimate Genesis dream. Sometimes; the world moves on. That's a fact. |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 08 2009 at 10:26
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Another band that I don`t bother with anymore is Triumvirat. Thinking of burning some of those as well. As simple as ACDC might be they never sold the farm on their fans. They just sold out the Olympic Stadium in Montréal recently in a matter of minutes. The Musical Box recently played the Bell Centre in Montréal doing TOTT and the promoters were out in the street giving away tickets. ------------- |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 08 2009 at 10:57
You gotta love it ... so because some fans got irate ... the artists stink? Ohhh, so Beethoven never changed? Mozart? Sibelius? Lizst?
What bothers me here is this ... what gives a fan, the right to tell me what to compose for his/her pleasure? If you don't like Picasso ... too bad ... go get a picture of an onion for your kitchen! Or a Playboy fold out for your bathroom ... this way at least these artists are of some personal use to you ... regardless of what that is, hey?
I'm really sorry ... but this is far more arrogant than the artist himself/herself.
IF ... and that is a big IF ... you feel that any music, or art, is there to kiss you and nothing else ... then I am not sure that you will "EVER" appreciate any artists for what they do or did ... because you want something that they are not capable of doing, or have no desire to do ...
You know what bugs me on this? .... it is posted on a "progressive" board ... where the discussion is about the open minded-ness that helps create new musics, new experiences ... and this is like saying ... you can't do that!
There was in the one "Behind the Music" about Metallica ... and someone asked them ... "you sold out" ... and the reply was ... yeah! every night!.
One more thing ... if you have such a strong opinion about an art form and artists involved, why are you not creating your own, instead of expecting others to do it for you?
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: May 08 2009 at 14:08
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Well they lost my business from `78 on. But I guess they don`t really care since they made kazillions satisfying the simple-minded pigeons who fell for their top 40 bubble gum dribble. At least I got to see their concert at the Olympic Stadium in Montréal for free. They couldn`t even synchronize the huge video screen they showed up with with the audio. When they played the old stuff they were just not into it. Didn`t care. It was as if they were being forced into it. I remember talking to a lot of disappointed people on the metro on the way home. That`s what I`ve always liked about Ian Anderson. He always gave the audience the best of both worlds. Even on the A tour he was playing the older material and loving it. Never saw a Tull concert or bought a Tull record that didn`t deliver. ------------- |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 08 2009 at 15:55
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With apologies to Tori Amos They're a bad band Mr. Bad Band And she had enough of him So the wolves try to dry her eyes 'cause the bad band made her cry ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: American Khatru
Date Posted: May 09 2009 at 07:41
There is a great deal of class and care in what Cheese presents here, more than what is usually shown. But I'll be damned if people who dare take a line like this don't end up pilloried on this site, not because they're wrong but because some don't can't stand hearing it. Here in a brotherhood of lovers of music that is, no matter the flavor, if nothing else, demanding. It's weird. I'm with you man. The Cheese does not stand alone! (We may yet become farmers.) |
Posted By: hercules amp
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 07:31
| When bands change and I don't like their new direction I take direct action and stop buying their music, it's an option open to all of us... |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 13:13
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Hi,
Guys ... some of these opinions ... aare making everyone look like a bunch of fans and fanatics, not people that appreciate music.
That said, I can understand ... heck ... yes I like Stravinsky and find Tchaikovsky boring but hardly a reason why I can not appreciate Babe Ruth or Frank Zappa or Genesis or Pink Floyd or Amon Duul 2!
... but that has nothing to do with music appreciation in general, much more than anything .,.. and here ... we're suggesting that because it doesn't sound like what we want it to (which is subjective as hell!) ... is what defines good or bad?
One of these days you might regret that ... check this example out ... you changed when your kid was 10 ... and your kid comes back when he is 26 and says ... dad .. you stink because you changed when I was 10 ... and I haven't liked you since! Not gonna bother seeing you again either!
What you gonna say?
Now translate that to Genesis or any other artist!
Make sure you can live with the response ... it will define the real you ...
It's hard being "yourself" ... and please .. remember that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be something that you, or I, want ... please respect people in their artistic choices!
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Posted By: esky
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 15:35
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I would like to apologize for my earlier post where I placed Cheesecakemouse's style of writing into question and not his written intent. I wasn't mindful of the rules and guidelines for this website (one of the finest), but that has been now self-addressed. Again, sorry.Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 15:50
| Yes they were and I think they are paying the price for it now, but why should they give a damn as they are all richer than God now.... |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 21:01
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But they still can't buy love at PA ...
------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: May 11 2009 at 21:10
... And probably they're not really losing any sleep because of that...  -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: May 12 2009 at 08:22
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You know, I had another thought "were bad to its fans"? Are they being nice to us now or something?
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Posted By: Cheesecakemouse
Date Posted: May 12 2009 at 21:37
umm.. ... I am, I'm studying music at university. I find the rest of your post amusing and feel no need to justify myself to you. ------------- |
Posted By: mark-prog74
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 00:50
Music is an art form. and an entertainment..the soundscape or soundtrack to lives at best. I love my music and appreciate those who have contributed to my life's soundtrack, entertained me and offered me their art. Genesis through all the changes have done just that. Do I have a favourite era? Not really my most treasured Genesis albums cross eras - Foxtrot to Wind & Wuthering. If they had never developed, never embraced their own inate changing art, every album would sound the same. For me I believe the worst theing an artist can do is to abandon art and pander to an audience. Genesis didn't do that they developed and became more vitally connected to the times in which they lived. If Genesis really had abandoned the true nature of 'progressive' music they would have gotten on the hamster-wheel of repetition and tried to re-write Foxtrot over and over again...in othe r words pandering to the fans. There are truly sublime moments on later Genesis albums just as there are on the early ones. ------------- 'I Know What I Like' and it's good music, well written and delivered with passion!! |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 01:23
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Genesis were bad to it's fans. They ran them over with a truck and the fan blades bent and the fans stopped working  ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 08:49
They threw us under the bus and deserve a little spanking. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: catfood03
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 13:23
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As someone who discovered Genesis through their MTV videos as a child I must say, I love 80's Genesis! In fact, as I grew older and started to investigate their 70's works I was quite dismayed by what I heard. I didn't like it much at all. That's all changed now and I love both decades for the band quite equally. Now I might have a different opinion if I had discovered the band at their inception (impossible, because I wasn't born yet), but because I discovered the band at their "weakest" stage (as this site seems to proclaim as gospel) and established a connection to that music I have a nostalgic attachment for those songs. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: June 17 2009 at 19:45
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I dunno if they were bad to their fans, they gave up on prog rock too easily and rather unexplainable (if i may say so) under the simple excuse that they were tired and bored to play prog rock - or so say Mike Rutherford and Phil Collins in their reissue interview concerning the Abacab album. They say they chose to play more "straightforward" music. But wasn't Duke pretty straightforward already?! Anyway, I think the success of Collins' debut album changed things a lot. And they risked a lot going mainstream pop-rock, but fortunately for them, their music appealed to a new audience, the 80s MTV audience, they made videos. They fitted in nicely, no other ex-prog-rock band from the 70s had their success (Yes' 90125 did but that was it). They were lucky if you ask me. Collins recalls in that interview how they were booed in holland in 81 when they played songs from the Abacab album. Rutherford simply said something like - it was our album , we do whatever we want. Banks and Collins explained that Who Dunnit was meant as a joke - well apparently nobody got that one, i didn't get it. Tony metioned that You Might Recall was supposed to be on the Abacab album but they used Who Dunnit instead, choosing "the ugly instead of the beautiful". Submarine was a B side on one of the singles. I find this song amazing, why didn't it make it on the record??Their 80s albums and tours were successful, so giving up on their prog-rock audience did not matter much anymore I guess. I like some of their pop stuff but several songs are just unbearable - Who Dunnit, Paperlate, No Reply at All, most of the Invisible Touch album - except for Domino, Tonight Tonight tonight and Land of Confusion - , I Can't Dance, Jesus He Knows Me (I grew tired of it) and illegal Alien (pretty offenssive song, i agree).
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Posted By: tamijo
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 07:31
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The problem is not that they change, change can be wonderfull,but will allways be sad to c a strong artist, forgetting about his art and only go for the money. ------------- Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours |
Posted By: St.Cleve Chronicle
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 10:06
| Genesis weren't bad to their fans. Their old fans just didn't like their new stuff. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 10:19
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They weren't bad to me. They've brought me much happiness over the years. There are numerous reasons why I can easily forgive them for Invisible Touch, and We Cant Dance. They are listed as follows..
Trespass Nursery Cryme Foxtrot Genesis Live Selling England by the Pound The Lamb Lies down on Broadway A Trick of the Tail Wind & Wuthering Seconds Out ..and then there were three Duke ...you get the idea.. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 23:05
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I don't blame Genesis for their later music not pleasing me as much as their Gabriel era music. Pink Floyd went on without Barrett and Waters, and their style changed. If you don't like the music they make then don't buy it, I personally haven't got A Momentary Lapse of Reason because of the bad reviews/me not liking The Division Bell all that much. Genesis changed after Gabriel left and like someone has said earlier in this thread, maybe they could have got a new singer, but they didn't. There isn't anything you can do about their personal decisions, the most you can do is listen to the music. If you like it, then you buy it, if you don't, then you won't. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: June 18 2009 at 23:17
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Huh? If a band is bad to its fans, there won't be any for too much longer. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: kirklott
Date Posted: June 19 2009 at 20:15
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Totally agree. Most ungrateful b*stards in rock music. And it was Phil's attitude and multiple nasty comments toward 70s fans, in particular, that made me vow to not give them another nickle after the Duke album. I don't mean to hit below the belt, but the well-known problems in Phil's personal life are indicative of his problems in relations with other human beings, fans included. He owes some ammends. ------------- "Progressive rock is the key to the continuance of human evolution." - Charles Darwin |
Posted By: BaldFriede
Date Posted: June 20 2009 at 04:36
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I am a bit surprised that there have been so many posts in this, but no-one mentions the situation the band was in when they changed their sound. Genesis were not only bankrupt, they were left with a big minus on their bank account from tours that turned out to be too expensive, and there was the next contractual album looming above them. What would YOU have done in that situation? -------------  BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
Posted By: Cristi
Date Posted: June 20 2009 at 15:35
wow, I've never heard of that. it's well known that that they did not make a lot of money during their progressive era, but still never thought of them as being bankrupt.
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Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: June 20 2009 at 16:05
Just morally bancrupt.  ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 21 2009 at 06:52
They didn't break even until 'A Trick of the Tail' By the the time the Lamb came out they were in debt to Charisma to the tune of about £500,000, so I've read. But Trick, WAW, Seconds Out, ATTWT, and Duke were all big selling albums. They officially hit the BIG time with Duke, scoring bit hits both sides of the Atlantic. I was not aware of them being 'bankrupt' as such. If they were 'bankrupt' their debts would have been written off under UK law. I think. |
Posted By: KingCrimson250
Date Posted: June 21 2009 at 11:41
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IIRC band politics had a fair bit to do with it as well. After Peter left, Tony became more or less the major creative force. At around the time of WAW the band was split because Tony and Mike, having tasted the success of ToTT, were very much interested in turning their music in a more commercial direction, while Phil and Steve were pretty adamant about staying the course. This pokes through a bit on WAW (Your Own Special Way...), but of course Steve wasn't very happy with the band and decided to quit, meaning that Tony and Mike now outnumbered Phil, and the more commercial avenue was set. Ironically enough, Phil was, of course, the one who would end up profiting the most from this new direction, but apparently he wasn't a fan originally. I'm trying to remember if that's something I saw in an interview or if it's just a piece of knowledge I picked up back when I used to bang around the official Genesis forums. Either way it may not be true, so if someone could confirm one way or the other that would be cool. Also, on a completely unrelated point, I heard Dancing With the Moonlit Knight on the radio today... they cut out the last two minutes or so though  Actually I guess it's not totally unrelated, because I do think it's interesting how today 70s Genesis gets more airplay than 80s Genesis, at least around here |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: June 21 2009 at 12:58
KC250 is absolutely right about Hackett being cheesed off with the new direction evident on some of WAW, but I don't think that the ironical piece about Collins is, although I do stand to be corrected. My recollection of interviews with Collins at about the time of ATTWT and Duke was he fumed about Genesis being lumped together with so called dinosaur bands like ELP, Yes., and Floyd because he felt that Genesis were very different in that they were continually trying to redefine themselves and not staying stuck in one perceived place of music. He also, in the same interview I recall, defended the shorter pieces, saying that you did not have to make a piece of music lasting over 10 minutes for it to say something or be good. If anything, I recall interviews with Banks admitting that the second side of Genesis represented the worst music the band ever made and they had taken that direction way too far.  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: pobben
Date Posted: June 26 2009 at 02:50
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One thing we all have to remember I think is when you are in a band or going solo, you make new music all the time. One album is a little different then the other one. You want as a musician play your new music at GIG's to show the fans and the audience what you have made new. And maybe when you tour the world or whatever. I would think the it's a bit " dissapointing" to hear all the time ...... Play this or play that ....I'm not a musician but i would have thought like that anyway. Another thing about Genesis and the members. I agreed with you in some parts. That they maybe should have stayed to their roots. I lke the PG and SH era most. Some of the music after was a bit poppy for my taste. But if you take it for what it is. A step forward to the POP business to earn money. We can like it or not. That said, if it's true what you said about PC shouting to the audience, it's not good off course, but maybe a bit frustation over what I earlier mentioned. Remember Roger Waters spitting on audience. And one last thing, remember what happened to Bob Dylan after changing from Acustic to electric music. We as fans have our responsibilities to. And just to mention it Michael Jackson died yesterday, that's sad even if we liked him or not |