The Christian Thread

Captain Capricorn wrote: "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." - Augustine The lute/guitar was also frowned upon because of its association with Apollo, the Greek God of the sun, music, & poetry...at the time the christian religion was formulated, it developed alongside the cult of Apollo (Constantine was an Apollonian). Apollonians used music as a direct connection to God through ecstacy. In it's early stages, the church comdemned the use of music during worship, but eventually allowed for choral & chant arrangements...later the organ was introduced & from there other instruments were allowed to creep in.   I think music absolutely belongs in worship regardless of the religion...few things have the ability to make me feel so alive & greatful for it!

For the most part, Augustine's quote is true (from my research), but also because early Christians avoided certain scales / modes, which were thought to impart certain spiritual feelings.

But what I referred to in my previous post was that ancient Hebrews did use a variety of instruments in their ceremonies, national victories, and in praising God (recall that David was a harpist).

Captain Capricorn wrote: Epignosis wrote: But what I referred to in my previous post was that ancient Hebrews did use a variety of instruments in their ceremonies, national victories, and in praising God (recall that David was a harpist).   Indeed, the Jews had no problem with music being paired with worship, but comparing christianity to ancient judaism is a bit of a streatch, don't you think? ...I mean, we're talking about a religion that was formulated in 1900 BCE & one formulated in 100 AD ...ancient judaism wasn't a form of early christianity, you know?

As a Christian, I count the Tanakh (the Old Testament) on equal footing as the New Testament- these two collections make up the Bible.  Regarding the embolden statement above, I would agree to that, but only superficially-

In the book  of Romans, Paul describes how ancient Judaism was a preparation, as it were, for Christ.  The author of the book of Hebrews makes similar arguments.

That said, I believe Abraham (though he lived before Christ died and rose again) was saved by grace through faith (just as I am).

Captain Capricorn wrote: Epignosis wrote: Regarding the embolden statement above, I would agree to that, but only superficially-   In the book  of Romans, Paul describes how ancient Judaism was a preparation, as it were, for Christ.  The author of the book of Hebrews makes similar arguments. That said, I believe Abraham (though he lived before Christ died and rose again) was saved by grace through faith (just as I am).   Romans & Hebrews are both documents from the new testament. Those are words written by a christian, not a jew. You'll never find a reference in the tanakh to the judaic religion being simply the groundwork for christianity ...I'm not sure how many practicing jews there are on this forum, but I guarentee they would find that insulting.

Yes- Romans and Hebrews are Christian documents that see the Old Testament as a preparation for Christ. 

If a Jew is offended, then they must be offended by Christianity itself: That is a standard Christian belief, that Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies and typologies.

Slartibartfast wrote: Have to ask this.  Is anyone here familiar with the Residents'  Wormwood?

Somewhat, yes.

Captain Capricorn wrote: Epignosis wrote: If a Jew is offended, then they must be offended by Christianity itself:   not true. It is offensive because it undermines judaism.

Look- it's a tenet of most major religions (either an explicit or implicit one) that other religions are not true.

An atheist believes there is no God, therefore Christianity is wrong.  Do I take offense because an atheist's belief "undermines Christianity?"  No.  Other people's beliefs do not offend me.  Please don't speak on behalf of Jews (saying my belief is offensive to Jews) because you are not a Jew (by your own admission, you are Buddhist).

But this is a unique case- I believe Judaism is historically and theologically true, but that it is all fulfilled in Christ.  That's basic Christianity 101.  I won't apologize for that.

Epignosis wrote: Look- it's a tenet of most major religions (either an explicit or implicit one) that other religions are not true.

I don't want to overstep my bounds here but perhaps this is an argument best carried on through personal messages.  I don't think this thread was intended to provoke.

Captain Capricorn wrote: Epignosis wrote: Captain Capricorn wrote: Epignosis wrote: Look- it's a tenet of most major religions (either an explicit or implicit one) that other religions are not true.   a just synopsis of the major problem with most religions Epignosis wrote: An atheist believes there is no God, therefore Christianity is wrong.  Do I take offense because an atheist's belief "undermines Christianity?"  No.  Other people's beliefs do not offend me.  Please don't speak on behalf of Jews (saying my belief is offensive to Jews) because you are not a Jew (by your own admission, you are Buddhist).   Just because I'm not a practicing jew doesn't make my blood any less jewish... you are still undermining the cultural religion of my people in favor of one that is spurious of it & 2000 years younger. Epignosis wrote: But this is a unique case- I believe Judaism is historically and theologically true, but that it is all fulfilled in Christ.  That's basic Christianity 101.  I won't apologize for that.   I didn't raise a question to your beliefs, I raised a question to your blatant mistreatment of another religion in a public forum. You are calling my religion problematic because it offends you.  Sorry- you being offended doesn't change my religion.  Even Christ taught that people will be offended by him (see John chapter 6).  And I'm not "mistreating" Judaism- I'm reciting a fundamental tenet of traditional Christianity, which embraces Judaism (Romans chapters 9-11). If you wish to open a Buddhist thread (or born Jewish thread or what have you), feel free- I will not bother you or call Buddhism "a mistreatment of another religion in a public forum" simply because of your belief that Christianity is flawed.   ...you didn't read a word I said, did you?   Christianity doesn't offend me - uneducated christians offend me.

So now you're calling me uneducated.  That's inflammatory, and I ask you please leave this thread if you don't mind. 

It's not meant to be a place for debate between different religions anyway.

How about we do most of the above page somewhere else. Debates were not part of this thread's initial purpose. 

Sorry to see this thread degenerate into a religious argument thread, they tend to generate more heat than light, eh?  Back to Wormwood and would love to see this thread go into a more music/Christianity area than a religious debate thread.  To say you are "somewhat" familiar with album is to probably say you don't know much, and yours is no disgrace for that to be sure.

The Residents aren't a group that most people who consider themselves devout Christians would take any interest in at all (feel free for anyone out there to correct me on that point).  Wormwood, subtitled Curious Stories From The Bible, isn't intended to take pot shots at or denigrate Christianity, but simply to point out some parts of the Bible that are really weird (typical of the Residents) and often overlooked by the mainstream of the religion.  Rest assured these aren't tunes you will ever to be likely to hear played in any Christian church.  I reviewed this one and Rick Wakeman's In The Beginning at the same time.

Wakeman's music on that one is more along the lines of something that most Christian churches would be more than accepting of having played in.

By the way, I am also curious if anyone is familiar with In The Beginning and what you think of that album...

And how about getting into Kansas use of Christian themes in their lyrics?

Here's some from Wormwood:
Cain and Abel
Genesis 4
"Blood drowns the ground
Blood drowns the ground
Yes, blood drowns the ground, 'cause
You didn't need me
The wind blew his hair as I looked up to see
The shadows of birds as they flew over me
Standing in silence, I watched how the blood
Turned into a puddle of crimson and mud
Like the dirt by the river my brother was cold
But the sunset was scarlet and purple and gold
I needed you
I needed you
Yes, I needed you, but
You didn't need me
Now I must wander away ..."

Bridegroom of Blood
Exodus 4:24-26
"...I'm t-tired and d-dirty and old
L-like m-mildew covered with m-mold
S-something is shining at m-me
L-L-like a l-ight nobody c-c-can ss-ee
M-My heart is t-turning t-to stone
Inside a s-sack f-full of b-bones
S-Something is sh-sh-shining at m-me...
N-No! Not m-m-me!
N-No! N-n-not m-m-me!
A t-tree s-surrounded b-by f-flame
C-Called to m-me by b-my name
And m-made m-me promise to lead
The n-needy out of their n-need
Our little baby
He's c-c-crying
Our little baby
He's c-c-crying
Our little baby
He's c-c-crying
A lonely lingering bark
Awakened me in the dark
And as i silently stared
A figure formed in the air
With teeth intending to eat
My husband who was asleep
He was tiny and weak
With eyes so tender and sweat
And as he laid in my arms
So safe from hunger and harm
I took the edge of a rock
And sliced the skin from his c..."

Burn Baby Burn
Judges 11:31-40
"I'm gonna die with no tears in my eyes 'cause
God digs my Daddy!
I'm gonna die with no tears in my eyes 'cause
God digs my Daddy!
God digs my Daddy!
God digs my Daddy!
His enemies died when he lifted his knife and said
Please let me win and I'll send you a life
So soon I will be burning for my,
Soon I will be burning for my Daddy
I'm ready to die but it seems to be odd
That bleeding is better than breathing to God
But soon I will be burning for my,
Soon I will be burning for my Daddy
God digs my Daddy!..."

Apologies in advance if those offended anyone.




Edited by Slartibartfast - March 20 2009 at 12:38