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Mind Drive 
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 06 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 28
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 Posted: August 26 2008 at 09:05 |
I am a big fan of Steely Dan but to say they are prog is a little silly. Prog is being stretched to include bands that have nothing to do with it. At this rate we will soon be adding:
KISS (They dressed in costumes just like Peter Gariel did)
The Partridge Family ( I think David Cassidy actually played his guitar-and they play guitar in prog bands)
Chicago (They were a band of good musicians that went pop- just like Genesis)
Three Dog Night (They did harmonies and prog bands like Yes do harmonies)
We seem to be watering down the list of bands on this sight.
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Senior Member
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 10:02 |
I did not vote !
I am familiar with most of SD output for many years now and I love the band. I find Aja to be their best album but I do not find it a masterpiece. I can assure you that in a week or two some more reviews will be added and it will reach it's logical rating (something like 3.8 I assume). As allways those who love an album most are the first to review and make some 5 star reviews.
On the other hand I think that SD made fine music. The way I see it what we define as prog is so wide that nothing will happen if we add some more fine bands. Those who think different can always ignore the bands that aren't truely prog for them.
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omri
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 10:23 |
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Steely Dan are far closer to prog than Meshuggah and the myriad crappy, unlistenable tech/extreme metal bands that sem to have found acceptance on here.
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Yorkie X
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1049
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 10:55 |
no need to resort to dragging other genres or artists or even this sites judgment down I simply asked if steely dan were prog ? I like steely Dan I think they are fantastic at what they do and are about I like cruising in my car on a hot summer night listening to steely dan and I enjoy the level of sophitication that they provide in their genre of adult orientated music ... but its not prog as far as I`m concerned and if it is I must be listening to the wrong albums by them ... see this is the thing now we have opened the door to Steely Dan there is absolutely no reason at all that Journey and Toto cant be included as both those bands at certain stages in their carrers ventured far closer to prog than I believe Steely Dan ever did, and if its about the high class level of musicians both Toto and Journey are made up of some of the best musicians around. 
Edited by Yorkie X - August 26 2008 at 10:57
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32525
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:12 |
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I would much rather see Boston on this site than Steely Dan. Don't get me wrong- I enjoy their music, but I like music from all different genres (even some (*SOME*) rap). And while I would not consider Boston completely progressive rock either, you at least get insane organ solos, occasional complex structures, and amazing vocal harmonies. It at least qualifies in the crossover.
But here's the problem with such an inclusive approach to progressive rock: Suppose Boston were included here. I consider almost everything they've done (particularly their first three albums) masterpieces, but our rating system depends on whether or not we would recommend the album for a progressive rock collection. So is Boston's debut album essential (or even an excellent addition) to someone's progressive rock collection? I would have to say no.
See the problem? It seems the rating system here is used to just point out that a review likes or dislikes the album, not if it is an important addition to a progressive rock collection. Just my thoughts.
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Yorkie X
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 04 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1049
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:20 |
Boston are prog related 
Edited by Yorkie X - August 26 2008 at 11:38
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66275
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:22 |
^ It is my understanding that Journey has already been approved for Prog Related by the admin team based on their first 2 or 3 albums. I believe that they are just awaiting someone to add them.
Also, to an above comment, I believe that Chicago has been approved in the Jazz/Rock-Fusion area, again I assume based on the earlier portion of their career. They are also awaiting someone to add them.
For whatever it is worth, and as has been mentioned by others, ProgArchives has been instrumental in defining and I suppose (for better or worse) re-defining the boundaries of progressive rock music. I believe that crossover prog is strictly a PA term, which has been created and defined by PA collaborators. As such it is an area that might include bands that might not be traditionally seen as Progressive Rock bands, but I believe that these are the types of bands that were envisioned by the admins and collaborators when these new terms were created and developed.
I guess my point is that if it were up to some people (and technically they would probably be correct) the term progressive rock would start and end with the 10 to 20 bands from the 1970s that all of us know and love. After that, it was no longer progressive, it was just bands copying a style that had been developed by the 10 or 20 originals. As I ranted in another thread recently, a simplistic definition of progressive rock is the merging of rock with jazz or rock with classical music. Steely Dan certainly merge rock music with jazz music and it was determined by the collaborators in charge of that area that this merger of rock with jazz was sufficient enough or complicated enough to be considered for crossover prog.
In regards to the initial thread question, I abstain from voting since (1) I am not familiar enough with Steely Dan to pass judgement on them and (2) I basically have no idea what constitutes prog in the first place. I certainly wish I was as sure with my knowledge of what prog is as the rest of you seem to be.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Online
Points: 20252
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:33 |
I didn't fight SD's inclusion, but I wished it to be Prog-Related. But I wouldn't say it's full blown prog either.
There was first talk of JR/F, but it went eventually to Xover, which is the second best space for them/
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Hawkwise
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 31 2008
Location: Ontairo
Status: Offline
Points: 4119
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:50 |
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A BIG FAT NO !!! good Band Love them but Prog ? oh come on so what next
i know a Sub Genre
AOR/ Prog ???
so who Next ?
Dobbie Brothers ?
Foreigner ?
Tom Petty ?]
Little Feet ?
Joe Walsh ?
Bob Seger ?
Bozz Scaggs ?
Journey ?
Styx ?
Boston ?
Fleetwood Mac ?
REO Speedwagon ?
Triumph ?
Heart ?
Boston ?
The Cars ?
Prog yeah right
Wonders off rolling eyes to make a Cup of Tea
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Roj
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Manchester, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:54 |
I really quite like Steely Dan. However, if they are prog, I'm a Dutchman.
Kind Regards,
Jan van den Berg
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febus
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: January 23 2007
Location: Orlando-Usa
Status: Offline
Points: 4312
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 14:32 |
 Hawkwise wrote:
A BIG FAT NO !!! good Band Love them but Prog ? oh come on so what next
i know a Sub Genre
AOR/ Prog ???
so who Next ?
Dobbie Brothers ?
Foreigner ?
Tom Petty ?]
Little Feet ?
Joe Walsh ?
Bob Seger ?
Bozz Scaggs ?
Journey ?
Styx ?
Boston ?
Fleetwood Mac ?
REO Speedwagon ?
Triumph ?
Heart ?
Boston ?
The Cars ?
Prog yeah right
Wonders off rolling eyes to make a Cup of Tea
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You forgot to include the New York Dolls, i think 
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Hawkwise
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 31 2008
Location: Ontairo
Status: Offline
Points: 4119
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 14:54 |
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Mc5 now there was a good band are they In ?
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65268
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 15:04 |
Epignosis wrote:
I can't think of one song that would qualify them to be here.
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then why don't you list each song from each album, analyze it, and grace us with your experience, taste and wisdom
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66275
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 15:18 |
On some sites AOR is treated as a branch of progressive rock, but currently not on PA. Many of the above mentioned AOR bands were influenced by the prog bands of the 70s. Seriously, I believe that AOR was kind of the U.S.'s response to British progressive rock. Are these bands prog???? I certainly think that some of them sound more prog than some of the more extreme bands that are treated as progressive by this site.
For the record, none of the bands that you listed are bands that would immediately spring to my mind as a prog band, however, I also think that many of those bands did incorporate progressive-type music within their sound. I think that some had enough to fall into the prog-related category, and with that being the case, I am of the opinion that they would belong here in the prog-related category (not all but those that meet whatever that prog quotient threshold is). But I also fully support the trend of this site that there are 100 fully-fledged determined prog bands added for every 1 band that is added to prog related. And arguably only the most deserving of these related bands are added. That being the case these bands might be discussed in the forums until we are blue in the face, but it will be a long, long time if and when these bands will get added to the forum. As Ivan has pointed out numerous times, the biggest shame is that these controversial bands that don't need the "press" since every one knows them, get 30 pages of forum space, while the unknown prog bands that might really deserve our attention get 1 or 2 posts in their threads. Too many bands and not enough dollars. I really think that in order for us to really make a difference it is important that for those that get disgusted with these type of additions, to find some lesser known bands and relentlessly push them within the forums. There are some posters that are really good at this. I won't name any names but we all know that in the "best drummer" and "best bass player" polls, there are certain people that are almost always showing up and bringing up their lesser known favorite bands and musicians. It makes a small dent, but you know they are making a difference, when others beat them too making their posts in those threads.
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Alberto Muņoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 15:28 |
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SD damn good band!!! they surely not "Prog", but i think that prog related were fine...
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 16:22 |
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"there is absolutely no reason at all that Journey and Toto cant be included"
Toto are prog. Listen to Toto Live for proof. And Gordon Giltrap, Gerry Rafferty (listen to Sleepwalking, one of the best prog albums in exisence) both deserve consideration.
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Hawkwise
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 31 2008
Location: Ontairo
Status: Offline
Points: 4119
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 16:59 |
Just dont see how you Can put a Band like Steely Dan in when you dont have Real Classic Prog Albums Such as 
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Alberto Muņoz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 3577
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 17:04 |
Hawkwise wrote:
Just dont see how you Can put a Band like Steely Dan in when you dont have Real Classic Prog Albums Such as
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66275
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 17:06 |
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I can't say that I know what that is. Have you suggested this band for inclusion in the suggest new bands area?
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mrgd
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 02 2005
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 822
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Posted: August 26 2008 at 20:31 |
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CONGRATULATIONS to the PA teams for admitting them to this site . Arguments about their classification here [ and pardon me for being brutally honest here] are simply pedantic and esoteric . With respect to those I am targeting, this is about the music and not about the politics amongst the decision makers who exercise their discretion on this site.
I agree that it is negative and detrimental to the discussion to make comparisins with other bands that arguably should or should not be here. Their admission has been debated long and hard and a decision has been made which has not been taken lightly, I'm sure.
Why shouldn't they be admitted? Is it because many of their tunes are more rock based . Is it because they have enjoyed commercial success with some of these tunes, or am I just bungling in the jungle here. Am I closeted in my wardrobe because I know what I like in there. I hope I'm not just carrying on like my wayward son here or am I just a dreamer . I guess I might have to give a little bit here ! ! Hang on a minute, that doesn't seem to be a valid argument really, now does it!
Is it because they are from the USA. Is it because one of them wears glasses? Was their hair not long enough for long enough? [ Sorry, I've descended into fatuous cynicism so I'll snap myself out of it ].
Anyway, most of us seem to understand that it is at least that part of their music that is Jazz and/or fusion influenced that helps qualify them irrespective of arguments about their classification.
I want to end this by saying I had the very great pleasure of seeing them live in their Aus. tour last year. They played nearly all of 'Aja', including a magnificent version of that track itself and a drummer by the name of Keith Carlock made the drumming his own in an extraordinary performance that would have had Steve Gadd green with envy , and that's saying something . Their better known tunes had been re-arranged in a far more 'progressive' way so that any of the most jealously guarding 'prog' collaborators/ team members etc. would simply have had to concede that their performance was demonstrative of 'prog', according to whichever definition of this ubiquitous term you may wish to defer to.
Do we not realise that 'prog' is ubiquitous in it's various shapes and forms . This band is simply yet another example of that fact imo.
[ P.S. TO IVAN :
I sympathise with you. I too am off to the Courts later today when justice will be done one way or another].
'
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Looking still the same after all these years...
mrgd
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Is Steely Dan prog ?
