Is Steely Dan prog ?
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Topic: Is Steely Dan prog ?
Posted By: Yorkie X
Subject: Is Steely Dan prog ?
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 01:11
| I have never thought of Steely Dan as prog , great musicians Yes prog No .. if you think they are prog would you be so kind as to perhaps tell me why you think that maybe it may refresh the way I`m listening to them to help me understand whats progressive about them. |
Replies:
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 01:45
| You know, I'd never thought them prog either, and I'm notorious for running an eclectic musical church, so I'm keen to see what people have to say. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 02:09
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Not remotely......................But, what can we do?
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 02:17
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have a listen to this cut micky posted in the SD appreciation thread, listen to those synth solos and sophisticated arrangements, and judge for yourself if it isn't as prog as prog as, say, Argent, Supertramp, or a cut like 'Lucky Man' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiRIE2irAgc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiRIE2irAgc |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 02:26
David, i haven't posted a word before the inclusion of Steely Dan, but my opinion is that their music is not remotely Prog, I'm a fan of Steely Dan thanks to HT who introduced me to their music, but don't se a hint of Prog as don't see a hint of Prog in Stevie Wonder despite he's a pioneer of Mellotron..
I won't object or say anything about their addition, I understand they are here and until this moment I kept my mouth shut, as a fact I've been very busy this week with a very important trial that is absorbing a lot of my time (Apparently the other part bought the judge and I can't take the risk to get this particular judge as enemy, so I have to be very careful and trust the Supreme Court), so I haven't really worried for Steely Dan.
But if an opinion is asked, as always I will give mine.
Iván -------------
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Atavachron wrote:Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 02:30
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of course Ivan, you have nothing but my respect and friendship |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 02:37
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Sorry David if I sounded harsh, but this issue with the judge is driving me nuts.
Knowing something like this is happening (I have a declaration but it's not enough prove) and having to tell my client to do nothing is really hard.
Thanks God there's a Superior and Supreme Court with judges who are very honest and will see the case in some months
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 02:41
yes the human factor, always a bitch!  BTW, my post was not directed at you, but at anyone interested |
Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 02:45
| yes as related band or musician is ok, because David Bowie and others are here why not him. I saw that in past few month more and more non prog or related bands and musicins are added. I think must concentrate more on real progressive bands, not only related or something near to prog. Are so many prog bands that wait to be added, and by my surprise those bands maybe never will be here because of diffrent opinions of the collaborators. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 02:50
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we DO concentrate on prog bands, that's just about ALL we do ..then a band that had a bit of radio success and dared to write art rock that was understated, even delicate, is added and we have war for two weeks... welcome to Arkham Asylum |
Posted By: b_olariu
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 03:04
Yes i know you concentrate on prog bands, but try harder, dig deeper for older and newer bands, that's why is called PROGRESSIVE ARCHIVES. I 'd tryied many times to tell you about some bands, that in other prog sites are seen as treasures, but here nobody even heared of them, not to mention to be added. Don't get me wrong, i love PA and i'm every day here, looking and reading, searching for something to listen, but sometimes you miss the point of the word ARCHIVES.
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 03:08
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you receive a weekly feed each monday.. check the 'new artists added' part for the last month or so .. that's the best I can offer |
Posted By: russellk
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 04:38
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I'm not for a moment suggesting Steely Dan shouldn't be here. Quite the opposite: if knowledgeable people have included it, I'm quite keen to explore further. I've had 'Aja' since not long after it came out, but it never enticed me to continue my journey into this band. I have to admit I'd filed it under 'soft rock' and let it accumulate dust. I've brushed it off since SD have been added here and listened to it again. I've revised my opinion: sophisticated soft rock. But you know what? I've found that by reading enthusiastic reviews of albums I've come to enjoy and appreciate them more. So keep writing those 'Aja' reviews and let's see what happens ... I'm determined never to miss a good musical experience because I'm prejudging the music. |
Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 04:42
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I always thought they were in their own way. However, the addition of SD will eventually open the gateway for bands like Chicago (Chicago Transit Authority days i mean) and early Gino Vanelli to be added also. Such things would have been frowned at not so long ago.
------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 04:47
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I had to vote no, although I love the SD albums.
But in my mind they are difinitively Prog-related.
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 05:11
You can say that again!....some very valid comments above both for and against. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 05:49
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I don't think that Steely Dan is real prog, so I vote "nope". On the other hand, I don't think it's not absolutely non-prog either, so IMHO one may call it "Prog Related", "Crossover Prog", "Second Label-Prog" or whatsoever...
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Posted By: iguana
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 06:23
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many proggy traits, esp. in their attitude to their craft. not prog though. great nonetheless. ------------- progressive rock and rural tranquility don't match. true or false? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 07:43
| I can't think of one song that would qualify them to be here. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 08:05
| And one more thing- how is it that Aja is "Essential: A Masterpiece of Progressive Music?" |
Posted By: Mind Drive
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 09:05
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I am a big fan of Steely Dan but to say they are prog is a little silly. Prog is being stretched to include bands that have nothing to do with it. At this rate we will soon be adding:
KISS (They dressed in costumes just like Peter Gariel did)
The Partridge Family ( I think David Cassidy actually played his guitar-and they play guitar in prog bands)
Chicago (They were a band of good musicians that went pop- just like Genesis)
Three Dog Night (They did harmonies and prog bands like Yes do harmonies)
We seem to be watering down the list of bands on this sight.
------------- Senior Member |
Posted By: omri
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 10:02
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I did not vote !
I am familiar with most of SD output for many years now and I love the band. I find Aja to be their best album but I do not find it a masterpiece. I can assure you that in a week or two some more reviews will be added and it will reach it's logical rating (something like 3.8 I assume). As allways those who love an album most are the first to review and make some 5 star reviews.
On the other hand I think that SD made fine music. The way I see it what we define as prog is so wide that nothing will happen if we add some more fine bands. Those who think different can always ignore the bands that aren't truely prog for them. ------------- omri |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 10:23
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Steely Dan are far closer to prog than Meshuggah and the myriad crappy, unlistenable tech/extreme metal bands that sem to have found acceptance on here.
------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 10:55
no need to resort to dragging other genres or artists or even this sites judgment down I simply asked if steely dan were prog ? I like steely Dan I think they are fantastic at what they do and are about I like cruising in my car on a hot summer night listening to steely dan and I enjoy the level of sophitication that they provide in their genre of adult orientated music ... but its not prog as far as I`m concerned and if it is I must be listening to the wrong albums by them ... see this is the thing now we have opened the door to Steely Dan there is absolutely no reason at all that Journey and Toto cant be included as both those bands at certain stages in their carrers ventured far closer to prog than I believe Steely Dan ever did, and if its about the high class level of musicians both Toto and Journey are made up of some of the best musicians around. 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:12
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I would much rather see Boston on this site than Steely Dan. Don't get me wrong- I enjoy their music, but I like music from all different genres (even some (*SOME*) rap). And while I would not consider Boston completely progressive rock either, you at least get insane organ solos, occasional complex structures, and amazing vocal harmonies. It at least qualifies in the crossover. But here's the problem with such an inclusive approach to progressive rock: Suppose Boston were included here. I consider almost everything they've done (particularly their first three albums) masterpieces, but our rating system depends on whether or not we would recommend the album for a progressive rock collection. So is Boston's debut album essential (or even an excellent addition) to someone's progressive rock collection? I would have to say no. See the problem? It seems the rating system here is used to just point out that a review likes or dislikes the album, not if it is an important addition to a progressive rock collection. Just my thoughts. |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:20
Boston are prog related  |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:22
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^ It is my understanding that Journey has already been approved for Prog Related by the admin team based on their first 2 or 3 albums. I believe that they are just awaiting someone to add them. Also, to an above comment, I believe that Chicago has been approved in the Jazz/Rock-Fusion area, again I assume based on the earlier portion of their career. They are also awaiting someone to add them.
For whatever it is worth, and as has been mentioned by others, ProgArchives has been instrumental in defining and I suppose (for better or worse) re-defining the boundaries of progressive rock music. I believe that crossover prog is strictly a PA term, which has been created and defined by PA collaborators. As such it is an area that might include bands that might not be traditionally seen as Progressive Rock bands, but I believe that these are the types of bands that were envisioned by the admins and collaborators when these new terms were created and developed.
I guess my point is that if it were up to some people (and technically they would probably be correct) the term progressive rock would start and end with the 10 to 20 bands from the 1970s that all of us know and love. After that, it was no longer progressive, it was just bands copying a style that had been developed by the 10 or 20 originals. As I ranted in another thread recently, a simplistic definition of progressive rock is the merging of rock with jazz or rock with classical music. Steely Dan certainly merge rock music with jazz music and it was determined by the collaborators in charge of that area that this merger of rock with jazz was sufficient enough or complicated enough to be considered for crossover prog.
In regards to the initial thread question, I abstain from voting since (1) I am not familiar enough with Steely Dan to pass judgement on them and (2) I basically have no idea what constitutes prog in the first place. I certainly wish I was as sure with my knowledge of what prog is as the rest of you seem to be.
------------- 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:33
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I didn't fight SD's inclusion, but I wished it to be Prog-Related. But I wouldn't say it's full blown prog either.
There was first talk of JR/F, but it went eventually to Xover, which is the second best space for them/ ------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:50
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A BIG FAT NO !!! good Band Love them but Prog ? oh come on so what next i know a Sub Genre AOR/ Prog ??? so who Next ? Dobbie Brothers ? Foreigner ? Tom Petty ?] Little Feet ? Joe Walsh ? Bob Seger ? Bozz Scaggs ? Journey ? Styx ? Boston ? Fleetwood Mac ? REO Speedwagon ? Triumph ? Heart ? Boston ? The Cars ? Prog yeah right Wonders off rolling eyes to make a Cup of Tea ------------- 
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Posted By: Roj
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 11:54
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I really quite like Steely Dan. However, if they are prog, I'm a Dutchman.
Kind Regards,
Jan van den Berg
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Posted By: febus
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 14:32
You forgot to include the New York Dolls, i think
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Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 14:54
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Mc5 now there was a good band are they In ?
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 15:04
then why don't you list each song from each album, analyze it, and grace us with your experience, taste and wisdom |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 15:18
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On some sites AOR is treated as a branch of progressive rock, but currently not on PA. Many of the above mentioned AOR bands were influenced by the prog bands of the 70s. Seriously, I believe that AOR was kind of the U.S.'s response to British progressive rock. Are these bands prog???? I certainly think that some of them sound more prog than some of the more extreme bands that are treated as progressive by this site.
For the record, none of the bands that you listed are bands that would immediately spring to my mind as a prog band, however, I also think that many of those bands did incorporate progressive-type music within their sound. I think that some had enough to fall into the prog-related category, and with that being the case, I am of the opinion that they would belong here in the prog-related category (not all but those that meet whatever that prog quotient threshold is). But I also fully support the trend of this site that there are 100 fully-fledged determined prog bands added for every 1 band that is added to prog related. And arguably only the most deserving of these related bands are added. That being the case these bands might be discussed in the forums until we are blue in the face, but it will be a long, long time if and when these bands will get added to the forum. As Ivan has pointed out numerous times, the biggest shame is that these controversial bands that don't need the "press" since every one knows them, get 30 pages of forum space, while the unknown prog bands that might really deserve our attention get 1 or 2 posts in their threads. Too many bands and not enough dollars. I really think that in order for us to really make a difference it is important that for those that get disgusted with these type of additions, to find some lesser known bands and relentlessly push them within the forums. There are some posters that are really good at this. I won't name any names but we all know that in the "best drummer" and "best bass player" polls, there are certain people that are almost always showing up and bringing up their lesser known favorite bands and musicians. It makes a small dent, but you know they are making a difference, when others beat them too making their posts in those threads. -------------
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 15:28
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SD damn good band!!! they surely not "Prog", but i think that prog related were fine... -------------  |
Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 16:22
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"there is absolutely no reason at all that Journey and Toto cant be included" Toto are prog. Listen to Toto Live for proof. And Gordon Giltrap, Gerry Rafferty (listen to Sleepwalking, one of the best prog albums in exisence) both deserve consideration. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 16:59
Just dont see how you Can put a Band like Steely Dan in when you dont have Real Classic Prog Albums Such as -------------
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Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 17:04
That's a Grat Album   ------------- |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 17:06
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I can't say that I know what that is. Have you suggested this band for inclusion in the suggest new bands area? -------------
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Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 20:31
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CONGRATULATIONS to the PA teams for admitting them to this site . Arguments about their classification here [ and pardon me for being brutally honest here] are simply pedantic and esoteric . With respect to those I am targeting, this is about the music and not about the politics amongst the decision makers who exercise their discretion on this site.
I agree that it is negative and detrimental to the discussion to make comparisins with other bands that arguably should or should not be here. Their admission has been debated long and hard and a decision has been made which has not been taken lightly, I'm sure. Why shouldn't they be admitted? Is it because many of their tunes are more rock based . Is it because they have enjoyed commercial success with some of these tunes, or am I just bungling in the jungle here. Am I closeted in my wardrobe because I know what I like in there. I hope I'm not just carrying on like my wayward son here or am I just a dreamer . I guess I might have to give a little bit here ! ! Hang on a minute, that doesn't seem to be a valid argument really, now does it! Is it because they are from the USA. Is it because one of them wears glasses? Was their hair not long enough for long enough? [ Sorry, I've descended into fatuous cynicism so I'll snap myself out of it ]. Anyway, most of us seem to understand that it is at least that part of their music that is Jazz and/or fusion influenced that helps qualify them irrespective of arguments about their classification. I want to end this by saying I had the very great pleasure of seeing them live in their Aus. tour last year. They played nearly all of 'Aja', including a magnificent version of that track itself and a drummer by the name of Keith Carlock made the drumming his own in an extraordinary performance that would have had Steve Gadd green with envy , and that's saying something . Their better known tunes had been re-arranged in a far more 'progressive' way so that any of the most jealously guarding 'prog' collaborators/ team members etc. would simply have had to concede that their performance was demonstrative of 'prog', according to whichever definition of this ubiquitous term you may wish to defer to. Do we not realise that 'prog' is ubiquitous in it's various shapes and forms . This band is simply yet another example of that fact imo. [ P.S. TO IVAN : I sympathise with you. I too am off to the Courts later today when justice will be done one way or another]. ' ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 20:41
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Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 20:45
Styx and Triumph are on PA. And the day Boston gets on here is the day I don't come back. Loathsome band.  ------------- Biggles was in rehab last Saturday |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 21:05
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this is why decisions here are made on the whole of the material, not everyone's image or memories of some band they heard on the radio 20 years ago ..Boston? You're comparing a talented corporate rock band who put out two albums (or is it three?) over a 30 year period to one of the most learned, unique, inventive, and elegant Art rock bands in the world? Odd. |
Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 21:44
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elegant Art rock bands in the world? But is it Prog ??
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 21:51
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well now, that's a conversation the members of this site - not to mention the Prog community - have been having for a long, long time. I suggest you look at the many 'What is Prog?' threads here, as I can't really answer for you what Prog is ..that said, did Steely Dan make progressive rock (i.e. Countdown to Ecstacy) ? You bet you're sweet behind they did |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 22:06
things are starting to get a bit dangerous I`m gonna say nothing. 
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 22:44
Well Art Rock, as well as being a sub-genre here at one stage (including King Crimson and i think Rush), is considered by most as a synonym for prog. So yes. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: August 26 2008 at 23:23
| No. They are nit-picky pop. |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 02:04
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I don't want to nit-pick but the likes of Walt Weiskopf, Michael Leonhart, Freddie Washington, Jim Pugh, Jon Herrington, Jeff Young Keith Carlock who tour with them and then the long list of musos who have recorded with them including Pete Christlieb, Cornelius Bumpus [ gotta love that name ], Ricky Lawson, and then people like Chuck Rainey, Steve Kahn, Steve Gadd, Dennis Chambers, Bernard Purdie, Michael and Randy Brecker, Don Grolnick, Victor Feldman, David Sanborn, Lee Ritenour, Larry Carlton , Joe Sample etc. etc. etc., last time I looked aren't that renowned for playing 'nit-picky' pop, and I believe that holds true as far as their association with STEELY DAN is concerned.
As always , it's a matter of opinion even if some opinions appear to be a little misguided on the subject.  ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 02:56
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These days I've given up on finding any new, real prog from this site. It's much more fun to see what bands get added, the ensuing controversy, and the reasons people come up with to rationalize the additions.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 03:02
it is fun.. to bad you've given up on new, real prog from this site as that's 99% of what is added, day after day, week after week |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 03:27
I'm not a fan of Steely Dan at all, and am not familiar enough with all their output to comment - but that song certainly isn't Prog. It's foot-tapping, head-bobbing pop music.
Aaargh!!! The instrumental section is REALLY annoying! I hate those keyboard sounds and all the unrelated changes - there's no musical development, it's just a song written by people who have a lot of songwriting and performing experience with big studio production... I'm really not going to like anything else I hear by them, I can just tell!!
I certainly would not compare it to the organic writing of Supertramp on songs such as "Crime of the Century"; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVPhVV1dYd0 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVPhVV1dYd0 ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 03:55
then I'm glad you'll be saving some money ..what we don't like is surely as important as what we do, and our personal views of Prog/not Prog help to guide our musical journey and to find what's really important to us |
Posted By: Roj
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 09:16
| I've said it once and I'll say it again. If Steely Dan are prog I'm a Dutchman. Kind Regards, Jan van Huntelaar |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 14:03
Indeed - I'm not trying to say that my taste is any kind of authority.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 14:13
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The guitar solos in Reelin' in the years are very well constructed and demostrates that Dennis Dias and Jeff Baxter have the guts!
Also the instrumental passages in Rikki Don't Lose that Number, and the vocal intonation are powerful and great. ------------- |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 16:42
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Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 18:31
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All you ne'sayers can gnash your teeth if you want. What's the good in raising ire about such a subjective question? Steely Dan are here. I believe from what I've read that the majority of people on this site hold them in high reverence. They are in my opinion progressive in that they have a high level of musicianship, thought-provoking lyrics, arrangements which are surpassed by few and a style so totally unique that no-one before or since have been able to better. I know there are limits to what is acceptable as prog (crossover-prog) but the Dan to me are not even close to being contentious. It's not like Nickleback or James Blunt are being added to the Progressive Archives.haha I would say a more rewarding approach would be to open yourself to a band that have a long track record of ground breaking art and have elevated a form of music to a point where they set the bar for others to come. ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 18:34
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^ well said ..next up for addition, Michael Buble |
Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 18:40
Thats all well and good but does that make them Prog ?? thinking um No -------------
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 18:43
Michael Buble for PMT ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 18:47
Well, yes, in my book it does and from what I can see from the Pa book, it does too, croosover-prog that is.  ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 20:57
Like the Docc says  ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 21:16
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have sort of laid low here... because to be honest... I have already moved on to evaluating and preparing additions for the 'real' prog bands you all seem to want... yet never recoginize when added Anyway...I am a frim believer in the idea that prog is a personal thing.. .we all our notions of prog... what each of you has to understand. And judging by the replies here.. I think you do.. because all of you merely expressed your opinion. Some here... are pretty obvious they really haven't heard much of anything from the group.. others have ..and still don't agree. That is the beauty of the site. There are no hard and fast guidelines here... the collabs here are a diverse group... of different nationalities.. backgrounds.. ages.. and of course ..views about prog. The strength of this site is the site respects all those and is an inclusive site. If one doesn't agree .. or thinks that a group simply isn't prog... your world won't come crashing down. You have two choices... ignore it and understand that while you don't agree ... others here do..... or ..as I am proud to see... you might take a closer look at the group.. move past the songs that you might. heard on the radio.. listen CLOSER.. as good prog fans should.. which leads me to answer the OP. SInce I added the group.. here is my explanation as to why they were added... so I offer this as my two cents to the thread... Taken from another discussion.. as you might imagine.. this is not the only place where this addtion was discussed hahhaha
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 21:23
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Stealy Dan is excellent but outside of the epic "Do it Again" (because of its length and soloing) there is little "prog" , as we understand it . There is more of a jazz slant than anything else but its the original mixture of rock, blues, funk, jazz, lounge (especially on vocals) , RnB and a slight ethnic (latino-creole) dash. Very original, perhaps even revolutionary (for the times) but this is no symphonic prog. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 21:36
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^ which again.. would be a problem if they were added in symphonic. It isn't traditional prog... let's put it this way... if what you want to see here are 'traditional' prog bands... you've got them.. for they have pretty much been added except for the rare and obscure that we still come up with and add every day. If that is what you expect from the site.... great.. you HAVE that here. If however.. you are looking for great music that as a prog fan you can identify with...and see.. while they might not be considered prog in a text .. or by other sites.. or whatever. Musicaly... they either are.. or are VERY close to being prog and thus... a worthy exploration for the adventureous prog fan. Again.. where they are prog or not is REALLY not the question... do they belong on the site.... as David said earlier... Prog is a personal definition... however you are really going out on a limb to express the opinion that this group did not make true progressive rock. That alone.. gets them into this site.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: tszirmay
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 21:49
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Ok , I see what you mean, but I was answering the poll question! That being said, I guess MOST prog fans (of the vintage variety) undoubtedly have or admire Stealy Dan (I do , I have 3 albums!) and hence, will appeal to most prog fans. Then they should be included under an appropriate heading. ------------- I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 27 2008 at 21:51
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and of course.. .they were .... Crossover Prog definition: Crossover Prog contains progressive rock music that, though 100% progressive, may have a musical connection to popular music-- whether it be the lack of emphasis on extended compositions, or an influence from mainstream music in addition to classical, jazz and folk. Compositions, however, still exhibit a high degree of sophistication, sometimes outright complexity, and the musicianship and virtuosity is often on a par with established Prog acts. Much like their kin in the established prog sub-genres, these groups will incorporate many major parts of what defines prog rock: the fusing of rock with the structures and discipline of more traditional musics, the use of syntheisizers and new technologies, intelligent thematics, and the expansion of the form. The defining characteristics of Crossover Prog are a pop music influence that is largely vacant in typical prog rock. Songs tend toward shorter, more concise presentations though still reach beyond the typical verse, bridge, chorus pattern. The harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic structures may be more easily digested in Crossover while not losing the musical integrity that a prog listener expects. Whereas Prog Related bands are generally commercial groups with certain prog elements or players that were involved in prog acts, Crossover Prog artists are predominantly progressive with elements of popular music. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 28 2008 at 12:43
I don't have to prove a universal negative. Those who regard Steely Dan as something of a progressive rock band should make the case that they belong here. |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: August 28 2008 at 15:00
I believe we've done that...all you have to do is read our logic from various pro Steely prog Dan fans. Obviously your idea of what songs constitute prog differ from mine and others as well. All I'm trying to say is they're here now so IMO it is probably better for us to agree to differ and accept that. ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: August 28 2008 at 15:46
I am certainly willing to accept that my idea of progressive rock is less inclusive than that of this website. But I am participating in this forum topic and unashamedly expressing my opinion- and judging from the current poll results (15 Yea, 40 Nay), I'm clearly not a minority here. Quite a bit of Steely Dan is jazzy pop, with catchy hooks and funky bits here and there. It's good, I enjoy it, but it isn't progressive rock. I'll be a Dutchman too, I guess. |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: August 28 2008 at 19:06
It's OK with me,,,I'll say no more.  ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: August 28 2008 at 21:14
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So it may help to delve into some specifics now, but then again, for some, it might not.
I believe there are strong examples of progressive rock in at least arrangements, lyrics, composition and structure, musicianship, musical influences and innovation to be found on every SD studio album release. These seem to be what most people are relying on. May I venture these tunes by way of example and I would welcome anyone else's views about the progressive qualities of these [ or otherwise as the case may be ] and any others for that matter : Do It Again Razor Boy Your Gold Teeth Night by Night Pretzel Logic Doctor Wu Kid Charlemagne Green Earrings The Royal Scam Black Cow Aja Home at Last Gaucho Third World Man Babylon Sisters Gaslighting Abbie Janie Runaway Almost Gothic..... ....just to name a few. AND, by the way, I never knew that there was any law against prog having a strong groove ! Is there....? ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 28 2008 at 21:28
not sure about a law, but it doesn't seem to help |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 28 2008 at 21:42
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good thing I don't wear an admin tag... being a strong disciple of the Tony R school of kicking ass.... would always help if people prefaced their opinons... by actually explaining just what they think prog really is? Echo the point some have made.. I wish I was as sure as some here appear to be hahahha. Then again.. I don't spend my days listening just to the stuff I like .. or want to listen to... spend more time listening to others suggestions than music of my own that I like. Trying to determine if it is prog or not. anyway... an entertaining poll... but as I've posted in the past.... you will notice that these kinds of polls are never used anymore for addition purposes.... people speak very often without knowing.. or thinking. I sure as hell haven't seen 40 explanation... or even posts as to why not. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: August 29 2008 at 08:39
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Some cools songs for sure, but not a prog act to my mind.
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Posted By: 88melter
Date Posted: September 01 2008 at 20:15
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Steely Dan is pop-jazz. Early Steely Dan is just pop music, period. They are WAY too blues based, and nicely so, to be progrock. Always dug everything of theirs, always will.
88melter ------------- 88melter |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: September 01 2008 at 20:27
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^^Aaahhhh, Madison, Wisconsin. LOVE that town! Haven't been back for way too long. Welcome to the Archives. E ------------- 
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Posted By: 88melter
Date Posted: September 01 2008 at 23:31
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danke schoen, eeet eees goot to being mit you und das PROGGEN-FORUM.
88melter ------------- 88melter |
Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 01:47
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First of all I won't claim to be an expert despite having listened to what I think is prog since the 70's.. I never thought of SD as prog and I think most people have thought the same. SD is my uncle's fav band and I'm famo;ar with all their albums and a fan as well.
It doesn't offend me when bands I don't think are prog are added to the site but obviously it does for some people. Do we have some kind of reputation to uphold, that only the purest of prog is included? The collab are asking us to expand our definition of prog and think about these bands that we don't normally think of as prog, nothing wrong with that.
Prog will never have a clear definition, music doesn't work that way. So take a chill pill, listen to Aja and enjoy!
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Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 04:08
I don't know, while there may not be concrete rules, per se, there are definite guidelines when it comes to genres. For example, compare Slayer to Disturbed and then try to figure out which one is thrash metal. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 08:13
guidelines, yes, but if they were that definite would we be having this conversation about SD?
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 08:18
Most surely we won't be having his conversation (very few care about them so much) if Steely Dan hadn't been added to a full Prog genre, when more than 70% of the people voting here believe they are not even Prog Related.
This has nothing to do with Prog's definition, it has to do with a very controversial addition.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: 88melter
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 09:21
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of COURSE music works that way. PROG is easy to define. Classical music more than blues influence, lots of time signatures besides 4/4, often mixed close together, lyric content that sidesteps "mating rituals" (per Steve Hackett), advanced vocal harmony, and the ULTIMATE criteria, meant to be LISTENED to rather than danced or moshed to.
The music industry has abetted these somewhat atrificial categories, of course, but they do have a basisi in fact as well as pratice.
So, Steely Dan is not prog because it is blues based, uses 4/4 most of the time, relates heavliy to mating rituals, and, as in the case of EVERYTHING MUST GO, is actually meant to be danced to. Walter Becker called it a "party record". Great jazz vocal harmonies, though, eh?
thanx,
88melter ------------- 88melter |
Posted By: 88melter
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 09:38
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Hey, websites exist to create stuff to blather about, and this one has been kinda successful, wouldn't you say? Steely Dan is pop/jazz, and great music. It is not progressive rock, but, then only 4 or 5 persons seem to really care, anyway. Until ALL the members of the PROG Archives weigh in, the website's attempt to drag us all in will have failed...HAH, take that, online media...
88melter ------------- 88melter |
Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 09:59
Within their vast catalog of songs, I can only think of two blues-based Steely Dan songs off the top of my head, "Pretzel Logic" and "Show Biz Kids". They are far more jazz-based than blues-based. ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 10:18
Easy to define? Classical more than blues? What about jazz? I see what you mean, but according to your rationale, it would seem like quite a few prog bands could be eliminated due to their music going outside classical, including a few of the biggies: ELP ("Karn Evil 9: 2nd Impression"), Pink Floyd ("Seamus") and King Crimson (too many to name). If I'm not mistaken, Wakeman's organ solo on "Roundabout" is straight ahead blues. ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: 88melter
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 10:40
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One of the bigger difficulties about online chats is that every exception seems to disprove a rule, rather than the other way around. If Art were that clearly defined, we could use accountants for performers. The key words here are MORE THAN. Blues, rock, jazz, prog, country, folk, classical, nice words all, they ought to help us communicate rather than hinder the exchange of ideas. Perhaps you were like me in high school. I didn't like any of the flavors of soda that one could get out of the drink machine, straight into a cup, so I blended tham all together most of the time, root beer, Coke, Seven-Up, orange soda, etc. This is my paradigm.
Why eliminate anything? Find the boundaries, and make them inclusive, rather than exclusive. Steely Dan is outside the boudaries of PROG because they use too many non-prog elements as the basis for their style. YES, ELP etc, use a dose of blues or country here and there, but do not base their style on these aspects.
dig?
bye for now, I'm done with this thread, it's been fun and thought-provking,
88melter ------------- 88melter |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 11:03
In english please ------------- |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 19:43
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This poll really intrigues me. With all the sub-genres of progressive rock...symphonic...neo...metal...eclectic...prog-related...math...jazz fusion...etc., it was inevitable that Steely Dan would create waves with what some call based on a jazz-blues-fusion format. The fact is they are a totally unique beast in that they have effectively created a style of intelligent, thought provoking music that has never existed before they did. The Dan are original and I'll say again that they've set the bar for their own idea of what great music can strive to be. Definitely not your traditional progressive rock band however by their very presence in the musical landscape they have gained admiration from what I see as a vast number of traditional prog music fans. They have shown that many of the progressive rock 'values' that are so dear to prog fans were able to be incorporated into a completely different style of music. All I can say is that IMO the Dan are a band worthy of the highest acolades and if time is spent absorbing the effort and intelligence that has been poured into their albums the enjoyment of what they have accomplished satisfies the quest for truly great music which so many prog fans aspire to find. ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 19:59
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^ don't think I could have said it better |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 22:31
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...........and they really know how to lay down a solid groove . Bodacious cowboys !
Her come those Santa Ana winds again . ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: 88melter
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 22:42
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Accolades duly noted and given.
88melter ------------- 88melter |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 22:50
| I'd love to jump into the fray here, but I think I'll just go drink Scotch whiskey all night long...and hopefully not die behind the wheel... |
Posted By: 88melter
Date Posted: September 02 2008 at 23:09
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everything must go, so, ..
88melter ------------- 88melter |
Posted By: Yorkie X
Date Posted: September 03 2008 at 01:04
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Some valid points either way .. but this is also a poll and the results are not looking convincing so far for Steely Dan ... it seems most people think who have voted so far that they are not prog. I don"t care what they are I still like them very much , but if I want my prog fix Steely Dan isn't ever who I reach for, I listen to them to chill out
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Posted By: kenmartree
Date Posted: September 03 2008 at 08:36
Prog is easy to define! Maybe for you, but look around this site at the debates about what prog is and isn't.
Lots of time sigs besides 4/4, I think a lot of bands on this site are going to have to go!
Just because you can't dance to prog doesn't mean I can't.
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Posted By: jimidom
Date Posted: September 03 2008 at 11:29
I think I'll partake of "the Cuervo Gold and the fine Columbian". BTW, is Fagen talking about Juan Valdez or something a little greener? ------------- "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side." - HST |
Posted By: mrgd
Date Posted: September 03 2008 at 20:02
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Green earrings... I remember. Could only be green ! ------------- Looking still the same after all these years... mrgd |
Posted By: Traveller Grey
Date Posted: September 06 2008 at 19:10
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Let's see...
Strange vocals, Intellegent harmonic development, diverse musical influences, an influence on bands that followed, never completely bending to the whim of the public, creative rhythm section...
I guess it's close enough for me.
They can't all be VDGG or Magma.
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